If one guy with a gun has put you into this much of a panic, you scare too easily.

[SidneyCarton]

Yes I saw the moron in NH. As did the Secret Service. He was covered and monitored with greater detail than Gisele Bundchen is when she sunbathes on the Riviera. Had he so much as twitched in a manner that they didn't like, he would have either been escorted away, and should he have attempted to react with violence, he would have achieved the ideal his sign was proclaiming, watering the liberty tree with his own idiotic blood.

They're trying to make you flinch. Freak out, decide en masse to attack the 2nd Amendment so that they finally have grounds for their idiot revolution (you see Obama really is trying to take away our guns, I done told ya! etc, etc...)

Realize here and now that President Obama understood the terrible risks he was taking when he decided to run for this office. He knew he would arouse the lunatic fringe in this nation to a degree never before seen. He got Secret Service protection earlier than any previous candidate, the White House recieves more threats for him than any previous President. He knows that every time he walks out in public he is committing his life into the hands of others. He is not afraid, we shouldn't be either.

Consider for a moment VP Biden, President Obama picked him for a good reason. Knowing that the unthinkable was a possibility, he has sought to place the future of the nation in the hands of a man who is smart, serious, experienced and willing to carry on with his reforms. Should the unthinkable happen, the work will go on.

Indeed, should the unthinkable happen, it may well be the death-knell for the RW hate machine in this nation. They will have wholly isolated themselves as a group of murdering fanatics, who even most self-described "conservatives" will avoid, so as not to be attached to a group of assassins, who have widowed a young wife and orphaned two innocent girls.

But enough of that dark vision. President Obama knows the risks and is not afraid, we shouldn't be either.

[ThomWV]

1. Well put. Pleased to be the first to Recommend this post.

[Codeine]

2. Excellent post.

The Right just spent the better part of a decade trying to make us live in exaggerated fear; it appears some posters here have learned well. If the Secret Service didn't feel this guy was a threat he wasn't a threat. Anybody with serious intent to hurt somebody does not show up early openly carrying a pistol on their leg.

He wanted to make you hysterical. He wanted a reaction. He wanted to make you look like crybabies.

Sadly, he was successful.

[Mira]

3. Very well said and reasoned. K&R

[zippy890]

4. Yay- great post, I agree

shouldn't overeact to the idiot with the gun- like you say he was covered if he made a move.

don't give them "..grounds for their idiot revolution.." (the mind boggles, really at that phrase, can't help but laugh
and laugh :rofl:

bunch of idiots indeed. and they are looking just like that.

[rhett o rick]

5. No one is going to take away your gun. OK. But don't tell us to not fear for Pres Obama's life.

Congress members and Faux News and all the right wing pundits are feeding into the crazies with guns. Some are outright threatening.

You say Pres Obama isn't afraid. How do you know?

[SidneyCarton]

9. First off, I don't own a gun.

I live in an apartment with a toddler, there is nowhere safe to keep one, so it would be irresponsible to have one in the house. I'm also a starving student, and owning guns is not exactly a cheap hobby.

Second off, you can certainly be concerned about the President's safety, but beware lest your concern give way to irrational fear. Courage is not the absence of fear but the control of it. I have no doubt that President Obama feels fear for his own safety, and even greater concern for the safety of his loved ones, but he controls it, and goes about his business in the manner of a calm and confident man, and not one who is constantly waiting for the next shoe to drop. Hence I believe he is not afraid, for his fear does not dominate him, and I think we should follow his example in this regard.

[rhett o rick]

128. I appologize for the shot about the gun. I disagree with your post because many of us are scared

by the crazies that are being fired up by the corporate right. It is only a matter of time before one of them goes crazy enough to start killing. Town meeting are no place to have people start bringing their guns.

[tularetom]

6. That states it as well as anyone could

That asshole is a wannabe. Obama doesn't have to worry about him.

If he even reached for his pistol a red dot would have appeared on his chest in a millisecond.

It's people who don't put on a public display that should concern us and like you I trust that the Secret Service is aware of who they are and what they are up to.

[pnwmom]

7. The Secret Service is overburdened enough. They shouldn't have to be watching

this one guy for every twitch, when two or three others could be waiting in the crowd with hidden weapons.

No one should be allowed to bring a weapon to a Presidential function period.

[SusanaMontana41]

95. Agreed. n/t

[napoleon_in_rags]

8. Fear him? His picture should be everywhere.

With the caption: "This is why blue dogs are afraid." or "How to influence a blue dog. Take notes."

If the Republicans don't forcefully separate themselves from this, then congressmen are forced into a position where they admit influence by armed whackjobs (and will thus always be influenced by armed whackjobs forever after) or have to stand up and say they aren't afraid.

[ecstatic]

10. Tell that to George Sodini's victims

It's not just about the risk posed to the president. Everyone in that crowd was at Mr. Kostric's mercy. And so what if the SS had guns trained on him? Why risk bloodshed in the first place?

[Statistical]

13. George Sodini concealed his weapons in a gym bag....

he didn't go to the gym with murder weapon on his hip and wait around a couple hours AND THEN decide to go on a rampage.

[SidneyCarton]

15. At this moment the safest people in our nation sit in Super Max Federal Prisons.

Nothing is going to happen to them, nothing is supposed to happen to them, they are perfectly safe in their 8x8 cell awaiting their appointments with destiny. For the rest of us their is uncertainty, that uncertainty is called life, it is called freedom.

Sodini was a sick man, he would have done what he did with a knife as easily as with a gun, because he wanted to kill women. Jack the Ripper did not use a gun to act out his misogynistic fantasies, and many others have done likewise. Do I believe that the mentally ill should not be allowed access to firearms? Absolutely. But banning them altogether, would require the repeal of the 2nd Amendment, which might actually cause a civil war. The cost does not justify the supposed benefit.

[Statistical]

11. +1 when was the last time someone open carried a weapon in clear view for a good couple hours...

before the "target" showed up.

Can anyone think of a single example in the history of world politics?

Generally an "assassin" is going to hide the weapon in an attempt to get close long enough to get one shot off before being killed or captured.

Instead this guy attracted some much attention it was on the FRIGGIN NEWS before the President ever arrived.

[Paladin]

27. You Totally Ignore The Real Motivation Of That Guy In NH.

It wasn't assassination (not this time, anyway)---it was overt political intimidation: Disagree with my political views, think your viewpoints are equally valid as mine are? Take it up with the 9mm pistol strapped on my hip. Think you've heard the quotation on the sign I'm carrying? Very likely---Tim McVeigh had the same words inscribed on a t-shirt he was wearing when he was apprehended. Welcome to the brave new world of right-wing terroristic activities.....

[Statistical]

33. Or his real motivation was to make the Democrats go insane about guns.

Republicans know gun rights are about the only divisive wedge issue in which they have public support.

They are sunk in 2010 and Obama is going to help Dems sweep again in 2012. He will get re-elected and we could be looking at back to back Democratic presidents (16 years worth) for the first time in how many decades? Add to that firm controls in both houses.

They are trying to get Democrats to blow themselves up.

"Assault Pistol Ban of 2009"

[Codeine]

54. "Sunk in 2010"?

Let us not count our pre-hatched fowl, my friend. There's every likelihood they have a net gain of House seats in 2010, and perhaps a Senator or two as well (though that's less likely.) They won't regain control, but many Democrats in marginal districts will be in danger without Obama drawing Democratic voters.

[anigbrowl]

73. A reasonable point, but...

it's surely not going to benefit democrats in marginal seats if they right wing are given a second amend issue to coalesce around. I think the way matters were handled yesterday was just right, and defused a whole heap of RW propaganda about 'Obama wants to take our guns!!!1!'.

Put it this way, if the guy had been arrested, do you imagine ammo sales today would be up or down/ I'm guessing they'd be up, way up. As it is, they're probably unchanged from Monday.

[Codeine]

74. I totally agree with you. nt

[anigbrowl]

63. +1

[Recursion]

72. Bingo. +1. NT

[AuntPatsy]

147. No, what republicans want is the president gone...and if you don't believe

that then you have not been paying attention to their paid henchman on the airwaves...but they have to be careful so what better way then to incite some nut case out there on the edge and ready to do battle to do their dirty work for them...all the while holding their hands behind their backs....

[SidneyCarton]

40. So, one chooses to be intimidated or not.

Yes this guy could kill you for disagreeing, and in doing so, he ends his own life as well. He has a gun, you have the courage of your convictions, which is more powerful?

[Missy Vixen]

78. Hell has frozen over

We agree. This was nothing more than overt intimidation.

:fistbump:

[X_Digger]

91. Does Capitalizing Every Word In Your Subject Make You Cool? n/t

[madeline_con]

103. Bull. He was exercising his 1st & 2nd Amendment rights.

The law was never broken, and Obama was never in danger. He had no intention of shooting anyone. He just wanted his 15 minutes of lunacy.

spell edit

[Joe Fields]

12. I would say that yours is faulty thinking.

It is never a good idea to allow a gun toting citizen near the president, at any time, for any reason. Why? Because you just never know. Maybe next time fifteen or twenty show up, all "within their legal rights."

By using your logic, then you would have seen nothing wrong with the Soviet Union constructing a missile base in Cuba. I mean, as long as they wouldn't fire any missiles at us, what's the harm, right? :sarcasm:

[SidneyCarton]

18. How near to the President was Mr. Kostric, really?

IIRC, Mr. Kostric was outside, on the street, while President Obama was inside a building. Unless Mr. Kostric had a Howitzer strapped to his leg, I hardly see how he was the primary threat. I would be far more worried about the person who might have smuggled a hidden gun into the building, suicide bombers, or someone who would attempt to attack the hall with a car bomb. Seriously, this guy was trying to be intimidating, and in your case he succeeded.

[Joe Fields]

25. You are taking this issue literally, and there are more subtle

undercurrents to this issue here, and they have to do with race, the aknowledgement of societal double standards, and also an orchestrated attempt to derail a democratic process.

I do not question for a second the safety of the president, in this particular instance, but we cannot allow such dangerous precedent to be set. I don't want citizens with guns around my president. And if you think that that is alright, and that no other issues or ramifications are involved, then you haven't thought this fully through.

[SidneyCarton]

34. Yes, there are serious undercurrents here.

And you represent one of them Joe, the need to turn everything into a crisis of Munich-style proportions. We see it every day on the news, every flu-outbreak is the 1919 Spanish Influenza, every war is either WWII or Vietnam, depending on the mood we're in, every fool with a gun is Lee Harvey Oswald, and every time the market dives its 1929 all over again. Every dictator is Hitler, every extremist is "a Nazi" and everything that happens in the 21st century is just a pale imitation of what already happened in the 20th.

Forgive me if I would prefer to live my own life, instead of reliving the lives of my parents and grandparents.

[Codeine]

56. "the need to turn everything into a crisis of Munich-style proportions"

This.

[anigbrowl]

67. I strongly agree. Hyperbole is poisonous to political discourse

Boy, wolf, etc.

[Joe Fields]

158. we're not talking hyperbole, and we're not talking political discourse, when

we are discussing a potential threat to the safety of the president, or even the hint of a threat.

[Statistical]

21. Well it really wouldn't.

The Soviets have an underwater missile base called a ballistic missile submarine with enough firepower to kill 50 - 100 million Americans in a blink. There is always 2 or 3 off the coast of United States.

Likewise we have multiple Ohio class Ballistic missile submarines off the cost of Russia and other strategic threats. Ironically the only difference is you can't see them and they can strike at any time without warning.

Kinda like a real criminal with a gun. Real assassin isn't going to publicly carry a weapon and he isn't going to give a flying crap about a gun free zone.

[HughMoran]

14. I agree - let's not take the bait of these morans

They wanna get frisky? Let 'em - they'll be plucking daisies from the backside in no time.

[emilyg]

16. k/r

[SidDithers]

17. Reposting my marginal post :)...

A couple of these guys should have been standing 6 feet away from him the whole time.



:hi:

Sid

Edit: I'm not sure how I really feel about this. Sure, he's got a right to stand there. But he doesn't have to feel too comfortable. But that's a purely emotional opinion.

[SidneyCarton]

20. I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

In fact, I think it would have been an interesting form of pissing contest, who would have ended up intimidated then?

[Heidi]

19. Four years ago, the media woulda been interviewing survivors, not the guy himself.

And no, I'm not afraid of guys like him. I'm much more afraid of cultural inbreeding sweeping the nation and of _US_ feeling intimidated by the sight of the gun. Guns may be a symptom, but they're not the disease.

[SidneyCarton]

29. No, because four years ago, this guy wouldn't have done anything too.

This guy was a braggart, brandishing his phallic substitute in an attempt to look more powerful than he obviously felt. The kind of guys who leave behind a body count, don't flash their pieces, they conceal them until they strike. This guy, fortunately for all involved, was "all talk."

[WeDidIt]

22. Say whatever the fuck you want, my opinion on gun control laws is forever changed

I now oppose ALL open and concealed carry.

On Monday, I would have had quite the opposite stance.

[SidneyCarton]

24. Then you are very easily swayed.

[WeDidIt]

26. Nope, not at all

This was one guy at one event.

NExt time, it'll be two or three.

What are you going to do when a hundred fuckwads show up at an Obama event with guns strapped to their hips?

This asshole ahs proven, Americans cannot be trusted to have guns any longer.

[SidneyCarton]

37. If they're all as toothless as this guy, I will sit back and laugh.

If they attempt something, then we do things "the Chicago way" and remind them that the 9 on their hip is unlikely to intimidate an Abrams tank.

[WeDidIt]

38. When it's a hundred assholes

The SS will be out numbered.

[TwilightGardener]

39. That's a chilling thought.

[SidneyCarton]

43. And we will have a martyr and a civil war.

And groups like that will have a brief, shining moment of victory before being reduced to cat food.

[skypilot]

46. Another civil war in this country...

...with the way things are going and we'll all be reduced to cat food.

[SidneyCarton]

48. True.

My thoughts is that such an insurrection as is being darkly prophesied by the above poster would be rather small and easily contained.

[Pavulon]

110. Never seen real concentration of force.. Impressive..

You can pull the video from Iraq. Bad guys never hear or see the platform that is pissing 30 mm on them. They just turn in to dog food.

That is what happens when you have 100 hostile idiots. The middle one does that to people.

[madeline_con]

107. I'm American, so screw you.

I can and will have any weapons I can legally own if I damn well want them. You are losing your mind over one idiot.

[PSzymeczek]

115. The thing of it is,

they found another guy with an unlicensed rifle in his car.

[Codeine]

59. Wow. It took 9/11 to make most others abandon our rights.

You jump ship when you see a hillbilly with a pistol. Aren't we a brave and principled bunch?

[SidneyCarton]

62. doesn't take much anymore, does it?

[WeDidIt]

80. NO open carry, NO concealed carry

Keep your guns at HOME!

[Codeine]

81. Frightened children scared of a bucktoothed dipshit.

I don't wet my pants quite that easily.

[WeDidIt]

85. Fuck that noise

Reulate the fuck out of gun ownership.

[Codeine]

99. And lose every election for the foreseeable future. nt

[Pavulon]

112. See drug war, with that first partner, then take on the big fish.(nt)

[madeline_con]

108. Crime doesn't always happen at home.

Lots of people need a weapon. Say you carry large sums of cash or precious jewels, for example.

spell edit

[Posteritatis]

106. Well, abandon some of them, anyway

There's plenty of far lesser things that will send plenty of people screaming off to Thereoughtabealawvania. Everyone loves rights until they benefit someone they don't like, or permit something that makes them uncomfortable (or even, occasionally, genuinely unsafe).

Myself, I try to keep a certain level of contempt for anyone who thereoughtabealaws based on single events, no matter what those events are.

[Pavulon]

105. I oppose farting in public..

but I dont think I am going to be able to outlaw it..

[Obamanaut]

23. Here was one poseur with a gun in a tactical holster, whom everyone

saw.

Shouldn't the concern be for the ones with weapons that weren't seen? That should be more worrisome, I should think.

Excellent post, BTW. Rec.

[ashling]

28. WAIT !!!

Giselle Bundchen was at the townhall?
Why were there no pictures ?????
thread's gotta have pictures !!

:rofl:

[SidneyCarton]

44. Now there you go...

We need to confront the next guy with Gisele Bundchen, end of story right there.

[joeybee12]

30. Time to unrecommend...guns and violatile emotions are a bad mix...

...we're not talking about this guy taking a gun to a tera party, he's taking it to where the insane are gathering...all it takes is one hothead.

[varelse]

31. I'm not fucking scared

I'm angry - no, make that furious... actually there just aren't words for this feeling. Blood-hazed rage might cover it.

Want to know what does scare me? The fact that seeing this hideous freak's bald-faced threat to our President's life has made ME want to put a gun to HIS pin-shaped head and convert his bigoted thug brain to hamburger.

I've never even owned, or wanted to own a gun before.

:puke:

[SidneyCarton]

47. They want you to be angry.

Angry people make mistakes, they plunge in when they should stop and think. Don't get roped in, calm down and regroup. One wins a battle not through a mad rush, but by provoking one's opponent into the mad rush, that exposes their weakness, which is then exploited in one cold, merciless strike. Do not fall for the intimidation, or the provocation.

[TwilightGardener]

32. It's a nutcase signaling to other nutcases that they, too, can and should do this.

One of them is going to try to be King of the Nutcases and take a shot. There's absolutely no other reason for this freak to bring and display his gun, than to try to stir up shit.

[misanthrope]

36. That's what I believe...

...In conjunction with the sign he held, it was a smoke signal. Whether it will be carried further is yet to be seen.

[PSzymeczek]

116. It was absolutely a dog whistle! n/t

[SidneyCarton]

49. And for his trouble he got hauled in front of Tweety, and made to look like an ass.

If this is the prize of being made king of the nutcases, then Pat Buchanan must be their emperor.

[TwilightGardener]

52. No, he got fifteen minutes of fame and attention. That's what RW nutz cherish.

I'm sorry Tweety rewarded him, frankly.

[anigbrowl]

70. Right, and Kim Jong Il scored a huge propaganda coup...er, not

If you think that getting excoriated by Matthews was some kind of reward I think you're guilty of wishing it away. Matthews pretty much accused the guy of having no common sense, of being grossly insensitive to the concerns of others (to which he had no rel reply) and exposed him as a bullshit artist (in the discussion over what his sign said vs what it implied). I think anyone watching that exchange would have been left with the distinct impression that the guy was lucky to be walking around free. Even some gun-lovin' right-wing people I know think the whole incident reflects well ...on Obama.

[TwilightGardener]

75. Er, in their own minds, they are (scoring a coup). Normal people don't want infamy.

[anigbrowl]

89. Who cares about inside their own minds? What matters is how it affects their public standing

in this case, the guy has done his 'cause' no good at all, regardless of whether he thinks it was a success. I entirely agree that the guy is a jackass, but it seems to me that the while the guy may have been hoping to look like a 2nd amendment freedom fighter/martyr by getting arrested or igniting a firestorm (and lets face it, there are plenty of protestors who treat arrests like scout badges, all over the political spectrum), his appearance on Matthews showed him for what he is; a self-indulgent grandstander with no coherent agenda.

Consider that he's not getting any heroic coverage (or indeed any coverage) on FR and places like that today.

[kelly1mm]

97. Yep! He wants to stir the shit and it is working. nt

[skypilot]

35. I don't know about anyone else here...

...but my main concern is not "one guy with a gun", it's all the others who went out in droves and stocked up on firearms after Obama was elected; that, combined with all their paranoid ideas about socialism, reeducation camps, and death panels, etc. gives me cause for concern. It's not going to stop me from getting through my day but I don't think that being concerned about it means that I "scare too easily".

[katandmoon]

51. Ditto. But gun worshippers would rather these extremists be able to stock up on guns than that there

be gun control. And then they accuse people whose first instinct isn't to wave a gun around of scaring too easily. Fuck 'em.

[SidneyCarton]

53. But that isn't one guy with one gun.

Those people scare me too. But, like the fool in question, nothing those people are doing is illegal. One is allowed to stockpile arms and ammunition if one has the inclination (and the money) to do so. And one can indulge in conspiracy theories if one so desires. We cannot stop people from doing that and remain free ourselves. But we can be vigilant and prepared, so that when such individuals or groups do seek to either intimidate us, or attack us we can be ready, both personally, and as a society.

[skypilot]

60. As far as I'm concerned...

...being vigilant and prepared means keeping an eye on idiots like this guy and all the others who might follow his lead. It's legal to own firearms--to stockpile them even--but showing up with a gun at an event where the president is scheduled to be is not and never will be something that I can shrug off as someone simply exercising their legal and constitutional right. It might very well be that but the other issue is what sticks out in my mind.

[SidneyCarton]

61. Fair enough, hence my crack about how intimately he was being observed.

By all means, these folks should be watched.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. We tried to reason this yesterday

but some folks are way too afraid

To them, I say this, share those concerns not with me, but the Secret Service.

I realize why they didn't remove him, and it is a good thing.

[Stevenmarc]

42. And when 1 becomes 1,000 the SS will have to stick them in a pen, then watch the shit fly.

[SidneyCarton]

58. When 1 becomes 1,000 this ceases to be an issue for the Secret Service

and becomes one for the Army.

[Hippo_Tron]

171. The Posse Comitatus Act says otherwise

Fortunately the National Guard, FBI, and ATF all have some pretty big guns.

[Swede]

45. I'm also scared of rabid dogs-you're stupid if you aren't.

It's your reaction to this fear,that counts.

[SidneyCarton]

55. Indeed, yet if one panics around a rabid dog, one runs an even greater risk of getting attacked.

[katandmoon]

50. And yet if he had displayed his DICK (what the gun is a substitute for) he WOULD have been arrested.

Meanwhile, the time and resources of the Secret Service had to be focused on this narcissistic asshole so he could stand there showing what a big menancing gun he had.

[SidneyCarton]

57. One cannot display that which is too small to be observed. n/t

[Obamanaut]

84. So, in the event of a home invasion, and you think your well-being

is in danger - which are you going to wave at the intruder, your gun or your...substitute?

[PSzymeczek]

118. If it were a car, I'd say

Mr. Inadequate and the EgoMobile.

[ashling]

64. It's the guy with the gun you DON't see, but

he WAS a threat . . . just a calculated one.

However, these guys are like roaches ... if you see one

[Maru Kitteh]

65. It only takes one.

[SidneyCarton]

71. Yes, and that is why we have to consider the way we react.

It only took Gavrilo Princip in 1914. A different reaction would have resulted in a different outcome. History can always be changed by a small, bitter wretched man with a gun, but most of that change comes from the reaction of the living after tragedy occurs. Do we the living choose to uphold the principles of the late lamented, or do we, in a paroxysm of wrath, terror and paranoia throw our values to the wind and mindlessly attack, heedless of the future consequences? Reactions matter.

[newtothegame]

66. Biblical, prophetic, deifying. n/t

[redqueen]

68. "than Gisele Bundchen is when she sunbathes on the Riviera"

Ugh.

[SidneyCarton]

69. Ok, I needed a similie that connoted voyeurism...

it was the best one I could come up with on the fly.

[gratuitous]

76. Damn straight

When has a lone gunman ever done anything? And our super-duper Secret Service agents have the untrammeled power to take out anyone before they shoot. Secret training that you can't know anything about. So what's the big schmeal?

And besides, if some gun-toting idiot is taken off the streets, why, that would give the other idiots the excuse they're looking for to go into full riot freak out mode. Nothing else would do it, no other occurrence or pretext.

It takes an uncommon mind to see these things so clearly this way. Uncommon!

[SidneyCarton]

77. So what exactly do you propose?

At the moment we have one poster proposing a repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

Another proposing a fundamental reworking of the right to bear arms.

And numerous others who are foaming at the mouth without any real idea of what to do other than the fact that "their President" has been threatened, and that someone must pay.

[gratuitous]

Jeez, you can't even agree with someone anymore!

I mean, if ignoring unstable people toting guns on the street because other unstable gun-toting people might get all up in our faces with drugs or something isn't the best idea I've heard come down the pike in years, I don't know what could possibly be better.

I just know I'd hate to be labeled as being scared of unstable gun-toting persons by the acolytes of the Holy Relics of the High Church of Redemptive Violence, our national religion.

[PSzymeczek]

121. I'm not looking for repeal or a major reworking,

but I do think there needs to be a degree of regulation on both who can have gun(s) and where they can be taken.

[depakid]

79. It's not the specific situation- although that is bad enough

It's what the situation portends- and be reminded that this is a repeat performance.

[TheKentuckian]

82. I fit the "gun nut" descriptor

and just feel that carrying (especially openly) to a political event can only be an intimidation tactic and an admission that the person is willing to take a battle of ideas to a physical confrontation.

A piece on display can only be counter-productive in this specific setting. Why the sign that you are prepared for violence here? This isn't the street.

[SidneyCarton]

83. I don't disagree, this fool wanted to show that he was willing to take it to the next level.

Under the circumstances we have a number of choices. We can choose to be intimidated, if we do so, he wins. We can choose to react in such a manner that heightens the tension further, thus offering him an excuse to use his weapon, if we do this, he also wins (a pyrrhic victory though) or we can face him, intimate that his phallic substitute is neither terrifying, nor impressive to us, and continue doing our part. We do not attack, or turn into shreiking mob, but we do not back down either.

[TxRider]

86. Yup

The guy is just a drama queen..

[H2O Man]

87. Respectfully disagree.

First, I do not think your use of the word "panic" is accurate or respectful; instead, it appears as an attempt to discredit what DUers have clearly stated.

Second, perhaps many of us are older than you, and have longer memories.

The fellow with the gun -- and a specific sign -- was making a statement. We understand what he is saying.

[SidneyCarton]

90. Fair enough.

1968 was 14 years before I was born, 1963 somewhat earlier. So I see the world differently. As someone who came of age during Columbine, I see the brandishing of a gun outside as less threatening than the use of one that had been concealed inside. The man was indeed sending a message, the question is our response. You are the boxer, you tell me, he is waving the red flag in your face daring you to come charging in, do you take the bait, or wait for him to give you the opening and demolish him?

[H2O Man]

96. I think that you

may find this interesting -- and I share it with you, because I have a very high opinion of you. And it is something that "old folks" like myself know, and which is why the current atmosphere being created -- and it is being purposely created and fed -- catches our attention.

Back in his day, Malcolm X crossed a line in America. Some believed it was his dispute; others, that he was connecting with members of the UN on bringing the issues of racism in America to the world stage, as a human rights abuse (rather than domestic, civil rights). Now, today, we know it was the combination of those two. This is synergism, which is two forces combining, to create a third energy force, greater than the sums of the two.

A highly placed US intelligence operative inside the Nation of Islam (no question: his government role has been fully documented) began encouraging officials in the NOI to say, basically, "Someone should kill Brother Malcolm. He is a traitor, and a threat to our well-being." Soon, Louis X was openly calling for a patriotic NOI member to kill Malcolm. And some money was distributed to the mentally-dead, and soon there were more threats. Then people showing guns. Then more violent threats. Then physical confrontations, some involving groups. Then a dry run. Then they killed the man.

There are those today who are appealing to the same emotional strings -- fear, hatred, and paranoid thinking -- and who "hint" about violence. There is money being distributed to the mentally-dead. There are threats. There are group confrontations. And there are people showing up with guns.

If we start on a road, and take it straight, without stopping, or turning off it, we will eventually come to its destination. And many of us have traveled this road before -- we recognize the road signs. We do not fool ourselves into thinking, "It can't happen here" -- because it has, and it will again, unless we get off the path that the dark forces are bringing us down now. And I'm not paranoid, not in a panic. I simply understand human nature .... and that includes group behavior.

[SidneyCarton]

98. Very disturbing parallels there.

I hope that the end result is different this time.

[AuntPatsy]

151. You need to understand something which I am not sure that you do...

History often repeats itself and not because of limited ideas..but because people are limited...

[SidneyCarton]

153. But history never perfectly repeats itself.

And half the reason it repeats itself is that we expect it to, and hence give into a fatalism that results in self-fulfilling prophecies.

Yes people are limited, yes what H2Oman noted in his above post is unpleasantly familiar, yes I am certain that at this moment there are many (and not just the wackos, but those whom we would otherwise consider stable and professional) who at the very least would see the assassination of the President as a desirable outcome. Some may even be conspirators at some level. But automatically assuming that history will repeat itself due to human nature, plays into their hands. That way, we expect it to happen, we are not truly shocked when it does, and life goes on. History repeated itself, at least in part because we know our assigned role in the drama, and resign ourselves to play it.

[AuntPatsy]

154. I am not automatically assuming anything, My assumption comes from not only

this one incident of the man with the gun in NH which by the way I am furious with him because people like him threaten my own right to bear arms and I have no desire to give that up....

Getting back to the basics....the re pugs are so easy to read...their main problem is that they honestly offer nothing new...and after watching this dog and pony show held in open forums re, faux, cnn and even msnbc in the am add that with what was said during the campaign trail for the presidential run by the former gov of alaska...the rhetoric used by so many in the GOP circus of wanna be number one acts is so similar one can no longer discount that history indeed is repeating itself right before our very eyes..

The GOP rightly assumes that the majority of Americans have no clue as to the specifics in regards to most historical events be they major or minor....the last sixteen years is proof positive that they were right for a time to believe americans were to un-knowledgeable to understand how they were being played..

thankfully the majority of citizens are attempting thanks to the internet to a bit more researching and reading which of course aids them and yet hurts the GOp..

But the problem still exists, sadly, not all citizens for whatever reasons be they on purpose or not have the time to do the research other than to simply rely on their once trusted news givers to ensure they stayed up on current affairs,. to these individuals, they continue to trust regardless of their own beginning hardships..to them, the Dem's are at fault for any and all ills that may befall them and their loved ones and of course there are still far too many of these type though they are not even near the majority of americans thankfully...

These people are on edge, fearful because they have every reason to be, they too have lost jobs, security, health benefits and yet instead of looking to who was running things these long past eight years they have jumped on the bandwagon of all their woes being the fault of the new president because, well, the news and radio favorite talk show hosts have told them that is who is at fault..

They are the ones who have brought, terrorism, terrorists, nazis, communists, socialists etc to the forefront of todays remaining re pugs volcabulary....and it stays with them. And for older ones such installs irrational fears which they share with their distrusting of outsider relatives and outsiders meaning people of color, certain ethnic groups as well as the community of same sex couples...along with this irrational fear hate is pushed out there...I have heard the word "hate" many many times by the right winged talk show hosts be they radio or tv...

And as things get worse for them, fear of losing jobs, etc, fear, hate and the irrational distrust of what they perceive to be different people began to find its voice getting louder and louder..granted, those same feelings have always been there in these remaining loyalists to the GOp but they had been silent for quite some time as in discussed behind closed doors silent... and the churches don't help one bit in quelling this irrationality of it's congregation to fear and distrust all those so called different people..

well the GOP is playing by old rules...scare the masses, bring out the crazies with the fear tactics...there is always a few honest crazies that will do the deed, not all obviously, but if history is to be believed as well as the outright openly shouted hostility of those in the GOP camp today then their plan is definitely working..

the next step...show how easy it is to be armed by the president..though not exactly close..to the viewer, he is closer than that person ever dared hope he could get...close enough....

and the stage is set..

now we wait..

to see which nut cracks his shell..

and I promise you, history does repeat itself and people will continue to prove it...it is human nature, that one bad apple that will fall outside the target area regardless of the basket awaiting it on the ground...it will miss, you cannot avoid it, it is one thing you can probably count on in this life to not let you down when you


I don't wish such to happen, I just know it will.

[SidneyCarton]

160. I am indeed young, so cut me some slack here.

While I am a student of history, and have seen it come full circle in my books, it has yet to occur in my lifetime. You were young once, you thought you could change the world, you learned otherwise, I will too.

[H2O Man]

165. It actually has happened

in your lifetime: when "abortion doctors" are killed, it is definitely in the same pattern .... jackasses like Bill O'Reilly call them "murders" and more, and groups like Randall Terry's "Operation Rescue" are moving in the shadows, where disturbed individuals who fantasize about being a "hero" lurk. Those groups have a surprising amount of money, and they are able to promote paranoia on a scale that insures violence.

It is brewing just beneath the surface today. And, without question, it will boil over. The only question is to what extent.

[SidneyCarton]

167. Good point, I overlooked that situation.

I fear for my children. The world I grew up in was not idyllic, but at the very least it was relatively peaceful. In part my family, while still screwy, probably had something to do with that. I worry however that the world my daughter is going to grow up in will be one in which she learns to fear far earlier than I did.

[Uzybone]

149. Why is this not an OP?

brilliant way to draw the parallels. It should not be lost in this thread.

[SidneyCarton]

164. I agree and second your suggestion, if H2Oman obliges, I think this would be an excellent OP.

[H2O Man]

166. Two things:

First, thank you.

Second, though I'm not well right now, I will give it a try. I'm not feeling up to writing anything of substance right now, but because I think it's important, and because your kind post reinforces that belief,I'll give it a shot. Best of luck -- hope it comes out making some sense.

[AuntPatsy]

150. exactly, why is this so hard to understand for some?

[Tim01]

88. I don't think you are emotional enough.

You may want to freak out more if you want to fit in here.

[asdjrocky]

92. I don't panic and I don't scare easily.

I'm pissed off at ratboy. I'm pissed that he was on hardball. I'm pissed that a guy gets thrown in jail for a joke about bush and people get tossed out for t-shirts but now that it's Obama in office everyone gets to treat my President like a fucking punching bag.

[SidneyCarton]

93. I'm pissed too.

But I also realize that this has always been the case. When I react while pissed, I inevitably get myself into trouble. When I think and consider the situation, I generally find a solution that best suits the problem.

[fascisthunter]

94. lol...

not as much as the guy carrying.

[Fla Dem]

100. This WILL escalate. How many protesters will show up "packing" in Montana and Colorado?

Posted similar comments under the video of Chris Matthews interviewing the guy.

Friday Obama will be in Montana and Saturday in Colorado for town hall meetings. Both states are "open carry" states as best I can tell. This loony tune and the exposure he received will no doubt encourage others of his ilk to show up armed at these 2 events. This will now be the new "norm" for the rw loonies when they are protesting Democratic events. If so, at some point there will be a tragedy. And that could be the spark that ignites an armed rebellion.

This is a slippery slope. The wackos will be embolden by the guy in NH and egged on by the RW talkers.

[Pavulon]

111. Who tha fuck cares, wake me up when a gun goes off.

then you have a story. Until then you just have drama.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

114. Will do.

[bettyellen]

137. yeah, you'd prolly be first to wet your pants, bro.

tis how these things work. bluster= bullshit

[Pavulon]

142. Yes from fear of a moron with a gun..

I spent a 18 months out of the us with guys with machine guns, grenades and a whole shit ton of explosives. No (few) women and technically no booze. No pissing, well some people have trouble with determining what a toilet looks like while ripped. That would be another issue.

I have no urge to be around if some idiot starts shooting, i will be the blur you see heading to the door or cover.

That being said this whole thins is a big pile of drama.

[PSzymeczek]

122. A gun fell out of a guy's pocket or holster (accounts vary)

At a Gabrielle Giffords meet-up at a supermarket here in Cochise County, Arizona.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SIMPLYB1980]

113. Enjoy your pizza you racist piece of shit.

And if your so called "Majority" starts some shit their will be some unholy payback coming your way.

[EFerrari]

119. Delete, misplaced.

[TK421]

130. I would love to know what was said there

if you could shoot me a PM, I would appreciate it :)

[Stinky The Clown]

102. ::::tap tap tap:::: ...... s'cuse me ....... erm ........

....... who is Gisele Bundchen?

Never mind ...... I get it ........ tatas .....

[Posteritatis]

104. I usually don't rec *or* unrec, but I'm gonna make an exception. K&R (nt)

[EFerrari]

109. Reading threats is not panicking. n/t

[spanone]

117. only takes one bullet my friend.

[spin]

123. True. The idiot had no chance to fire that one bullet. (n/t)

[W_HAMILTON]

127. What if there were 20 idiots with a gun?

What if everyone at the townhall had a gun? Could 10 -- let's even say 20 -- Secret Service keep watch over them all?

[spin]

129. Interesting question...

However he was not in the town hall meeting.

A man carried a handgun strapped to his leg to a town hall meeting being held by President Obama in Portsmouth, New Hampshire on Tuesday.

It's legal for him to have the gun as long as it is unconcealed, the police told MSNBC. The man was on private property -- church ground on the roadway leading to the high school where Obama would speak. The church gave the man permission to be there. However, according to police officers, he is under constant surveillance and is not anywhere near where the president will speak.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/11/protester-with-gun-found_n_256614.html

[W_HAMILTON]

138. I know that...

...but my point still remains. What if there was a mob of people, all with unconcealed guns, surrounding the area where the townhall was held so that our president would have to go by arms protestors to get to the townhall?

I know some people have actually brought guns inside the townhalls, so I don't know what the policy is on that. It seems that you can't take a gun inside the townhall with the president, but if that's the case, it is getting at my point. It's a poor choice to bring a gun (carrying a sign that implies killing people) to protest our president.

These people are wackos, and they are seeing how far they can go. They are going too far.

[spin]

140. In normal times...

you might find several people in a crowd near a Presidential event with legal concealed weapons. Some would merely be caught in the crowd while innocently passing by. Some might be carrying their weapon as it was legal to do so, but would have no intention of attempting an assignation.

When I lived in Tampa, I always avoided carrying a firearm in my car or on my person (yes, I have a permit) if I planned to go anywhere near an event where a President or Presidential candidate was appearing. Actually I usually avoided the event entirely. I hate traffic jams. Once or twice I found myself returning from work after the midnight shift with a firearm in my vehicle on a route that was to be used by the President or a candidate after they landed at Tampa International. The give away was all the police cars at every cross street.

My state doesn't allow open carry in urban areas, so people with unconcealed handguns would be arrested. I personally dislike the concept of open carry for many reasons. It makes you a target. It causes people to react to you in a far different manner than if you carry concealed. Basically it attracts attention and rarely positive attention.

A large number of individuals with visible weapons surrounding the event would probably cause the Secret Service concern. Still their tactics are so good that the President would be in little danger.

My biggest concern is that we no longer discuss issues in a calm manner, but some in the media pump the rhetoric up to the point that some unstable or confused individuals may attempt something really stupid. As a person who might be described as a "gun nut" or the more politically correct term "firearm enthusiast", I fear the actions of a few misguided individuals might interfere with my currently legal right to own and use firearms in a responsible manner.

I actually don't fear some idiot with a firearm strapped on his leg in some inferior "tactical" holster. I fear some misguided "patriotic" individuals or some true professionals paid by large corporate interests or the military industrial complex may make an attempt on Obama's life. Amateurs are easily handled by the Secret Service and the local police and FBI.

When a President comes along and advocates real change, those in power may decide to eliminate him.

I know, tin foil hat time. I hope my fears are wrong.

[AuntPatsy]

152. I hold your same fears....

[Pavulon]

144. Not going to happen.

The SS is not going allow 20 people around the pres. armed. Lets stick to reality.

[W_HAMILTON]

155. I would think they wouldn't allow even one person...

with a gun around the president.

If one person has the right to carry a gun in the vicinity around the president, why don't 20 people?

[Pavulon]

168. He was not in the vicinity (ie range of the weapon he had)

you cant carry a weapon into traffic court, never mind to see the president. Some folks are getting a bit wacky on these threads.

[proteus_lives]

120. Well said!

"They're trying to make you flinch. Freak out, decide en masse to attack the 2nd Amendment so that they finally have grounds for their idiot revolution (you see Obama really is trying to take away our guns, I done told ya! etc, etc...)"

The idiot gun-grabbing zealots would do the rethugs work for them if given half the chance.

It's astonished me since day one on DU how many "liberals" think the 2nd Amendment is disposable and shit on it every chance they get.

Real Democrats and liberals/progressives support RKBA!

[bettyellen]

124. so you have no real sense of perspective and speculate that if Obama dies it would be unfortunate?

I do understand what you are saying about strategy...but I have to say this is incredibly short sighted and immature.
It's like you have no idea what that man with the gun is doing, or how historically significant the last elction was.
Telling people to have no concern is absolute bullshit. History tells us otherwise.

[dorkulon]

125. How many times does "one guy with a gun" have to kill a crowd of people before we stop acting like

it's no biggie, and only a wuss would be alarmed? One guy with a gun massacred a bunch of women in a gym the other day. One guy with a gun is plenty dangerous.

[spin]

141. Well, if you come to Florida and many other states...

you will find many people who legally carry concealed weapons and statistics show that they present very little danger.

I agree that "one guy with a gun is plenty dangerous". But I would also say that one criminal with a gun who is free to prey on unarmed individuals is even more dangerous.

There are plenty of newspaper reports that show that armed individuals with carry permits do stop criminal attacks. Even more newspaper reports show that armed homeowners often successfully stop home invasions.

Obviously the man you mentioned had severe mental problems. He did kill a number of women because he couldn't find one dumb enough to associate with him.

Is the solution to ban all firearms?

I would disagree. My daughter used a large caliber revolver to stop an intruder breaking into our home. He was prying a sliding glass door open and was halfway in when she confronted him. He said that he planned to rape her. She pointed the revolver at him. He left.

I have two wonderful grandchildren to enjoy today that may never have been born had my daughter died that night.

[saltpoint]

126. I'm afraid of being snapped in two pieces by a great white shark in the

ocean but not enough to keep me out of the ocean.

There's sharks out there, granted. But I've always liked swimming in the sea.

The difference is the guy with the gun makes an express decision to carry the gun generally and carry it to a political event specifically, an event at which the President of the United States is slated to appear.

[LeFleur1]

131. Just Arm Yourselves

If one person begins shooting, we'll all begin shooting. What's the big deal?:shrug: :sarcasm:

[Sparkly]

132. "America, Show Us Your Guns!"

Remember that old SNL skit?

[saltpoint]

145. You all just shoot it out without me.

I'll be swimming.

[ensho]

133. you must be young

older americans remember the deaths by gun of our Presidents and leaders and the history of gun deaths of our elected and those brave enough to speak out against injustice.

call us gun shy if you must but we prefer not to have guns around our elected persons and brave protesters.

[bettyellen]

136. especially if he assumes it would be easy for the country to move on from it- how foolish that is

[Bluerthanblue]

134. I'm don't agree with you that Prez. O isn't afraid- he's

an incredibly smart and realistic man. If I'm not mistaken, I heard both he, and Michelle in an interview way back before all this crap, discussing the danger of his position. And they both admitted having worries about the danger of the position he was taking- BUT (and this really reinforced my admiration and respect for both the Obamas) they felt that the potential for positive change he would bring to the Nation, was worth the risk.

Courage isn't not being afraid- it's being aware of the danger, and choosing not to let it stop you from moving forward- cautiously, but confidently.

Ignoring the asshole with his weapon and libertarian sign, would be foolishness- He's a symptom, and there is a disease present and spreading through the country that cannot be denied or ignored. I don't advocate over-reacting, but neither should we pretend he doesn't signal a very real and deadly threat, to ALL of us.

imo

[kentuck]

135. He was an arrogant asshole...

to take a gun to such an event. What was he trying to prove. "Look at me! I support the 2nd Amendment and I have an extension of my dick tied to my kneecap. Aren't I cool? Sometimes we have to water the tree of liberty with tyrants and patriots? Does he think he is the patriot? He is a dumbass. I'm waiting for him to be the next hero of the NRA...Fuck him!

[spin]

139. I'm very pro-gun...

I have a concealed carry permit and I carry.

However, I agree with what you said.

When I lived in the Tampa Bay area, often the President would show up in town. If I planed to travel anywhere near the event, my handgun stayed behind.

[kentuck]

157. I have several guns but this guy is still stupid and arrogant...

I am not anti-gun. I am anti-stupidity.

[spin]

174. Agreed. (n/t)

[deaniac21]

143. There's a man with a gun over there

[AuntPatsy]

146. I'm not sure I agree with you, I don't think his attention was to install fear, I believe his

intention was to get the media to help him get a message out and as far as I can tell he accomplished his message and that is what I fear more...

[deaniac21]

148. It was just a gun, he had a tactical semi automatic holster.

Get your facts straight.

[johnaries]

156. No offense, but look at how much damage "one man with a gun"

has done. The guy in the gym. The guy in the holocaust museum. The guy in the Knoxville church. The kid in the Carolina college. Etc., etc.

I'm not anti-gun, I own one myself. My ex-girlfriend had a carry permit. But in certain situations "one man with a gun" needs to be watched closely. Especially in situations where death threats have already been made.

[SidneyCarton]

162. And indeed he was watched, intimately.

I do not deny that "one man with a gun" can cause endless trouble, I am a student of the First World War, Gavrilo Princip was one man with a gun.

[johnaries]

172. Then I will admit, I am a little confused by your post and I would appreciate

a little clarification.

I fully support the right to "bear arms", but I think that because of the potential danger they should be well-regulated. I also feel the same way about cars. Car accidents kill more people every year than guns, but that's only because more people own cars and more people are careless in their driving than with guns. But there are still too many people who are careless with guns. The NRA used to be very concerned with gun safety - recently they have lost their way IMHO.

Perhaps the MSM made "too much of a deal" about a single man who aligned himself with a group - some of whom seemed to advocate the assination of the President - who "happened to be carrying a gun".

Under the circumstances, I believe that "any reasonable person" would believe that his actions were trying to "send a message" and an implied threat. It is not the fact that he was openly carrying, it is the circumstances under which he was openly carrying.

For those of use who support "gun rights" we have to realize that some gun owners are just "fucking stupid"

Our job should be to educate, not to escalate.

[ConnorMarc]

159. I Was Gonna Bash This Thread At First Reading, But...

You know what...great post, great thread.

Only thing though, what if it were more than one dude, what if it were truckloads of them?

By law, they could do that.

But you're right...great post sir.

[SidneyCarton]

161. By law they could... and if they did, the situation would be very different.

I answered a poster upthread who asked how the Secret Service would deal with a thousand armed men threatening the President. I responded that at that point, it ceases to be the problem of the Secret Service and becomes the military's problem, that isn't an assassination attempt, it's insurrection.

[slackmaster]

163. Happy to add Recommendation #20

:hi:

[NNN0LHI]

169. Try telling that to JFK

[X_Digger]

173. This JFK?

(JFK, Gore Vidal, and Tennessee Williams shooting targets in Palm Beach in 1958)

[Fla_Democrat]

170. Depends on the person, and the setting

Now, say if I was over at my girlfriends house, circa 1988, and her dad interrupted a rather tender moment.... hell yea I was panicked. :scared: