So if a Muslim woman wants to wear what is essentially a wet suit

[WCGreen]

in order to swim, what harm is there?

I think the French are trying to defend a culture that is, they believe, under siege from the growing Muslim communities scattered around the country.

The French were never, at least in modern times, a pluralistic society. They seem to be all about the French Culture so it is understandable from that point of view that they would find the "burqini" as an assault on French Culture.

I think the French person who made this decision is worried about street fabrics shedding and blocking up the filtration system.

But if they made the "burqini" from materials other more"acceptable" swim suits, would they still question the wear of these swim suits?

[NYC_SKP]

1. ?

:shrug:

[WCGreen]

4. It's all over the cable and net about this muslim woman being told her

body covering "burqini" was unacceptable for French Swimming pools.

[NYC_SKP]

10. Ah, thank you, hadn't heard of this. Here's a Link and a Pic and a short story...

http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/386926/burkini-banned-in-french-swimming-pool.html



And the story:

According to reports in The Telegraph, the woman, named only as Carole, 35, bought the three-piece swimsuit in Dubai. Consisting of a headscarf, tunic and trousers, the ‘burkini’ is a cross between a burka and a bikini. It allows Muslim women to swim without revealing their bodies. The rules of public pools in France state that clothing is forbidden while swimming, for hygiene reasons.

President Nicolas Sarkozy's government is currently considering a ban on all Islamic clothing, such as the burka or niqab. In 2004, students across France were banned from wearing religious headscarves. Yannick Decompois, the district swimming pools director, denies allegations that Carole’s case is a religious issue. ‘This has nothing to do with secularism, but is a simply a hygiene problem. For the same reasons men are also banned from wearing shorts,’ he said.

However, Carol, who converted to Islam aged 17, believes it is a political issue and accused the pool officials of illegal discrimination. She claimed: ‘For me, it's segregation and I am going to fight to try and change things.’

:P I think the outfit is cute and appropriate for swimming, for her, in France.

[Merlot]

19. If a country makes it illegal for a woman to appear in public with out

an escort (male releative) or without covering, that country can do that.

So, if France wants to outlaw such behaviors, they can.

And unless that wetsuit (sorry, no cute "burkini" names for me) is made of proper swimsuit material, it has no business being in a public pool. Not swimming in clothes has been a sanitary issues for years, and years, and years.

[Critters2]

30. How is it a sanitary issue?

Seriously, I don't understand the problem.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

43. Exactly. Any decently maintained public swimming pool

should be amply supplied with chlorine, so the bacteria issue is moot. At best.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

45. Welcome to DU.

[surrealAmerican]

48. I tend to agree with you.

Not only that, but, judging from the photo, it looks like the same sort of nylon/spandex type of material more revealing swimsuits are made of, just more of it.


... and welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

52. They are banned as well. Do some reading. (nt)

[Liquorice]

69. That's a good point. France has a right to ban it. nt

[LisaL]

66. Clothing is forbidden while swinning in France?

Somehow I doubt they are all swimming naked. But just how skimpy are their swimsuits supposed to be?

[SmileyRose]

70. What a GREAT swimsuit !!!

I'm not even Muslim and I want one. How perfect for a lady like me with massive scars all over everywhere and struggling to find swimwear that I know for sure others aren't ogling my frailties with disgust. It's one thing to SAY, who cares what they thing, and another to actually internalize it.

LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT. -- Bet the dermotologists like it too !!

[rd_kent]

2. I think that they are worried, as we all should be, by the growing

acceptance of oppression that religion, especially Islam, brings to the mainstream.

[WCGreen]

3. I agree with that since we went through a very similar response

whenever a new wave of immigrants hit our shores.

[rd_kent]

7. And that hits on one of the main immigration issues.

IMO, I think that we would not be so divided on this country if immigrants were to assimilate into American culture. Many choose not to do that and do not learn English, fly flags of their former countries, continue to practice the customs of those countries, etc. If more immigrants were to EMBRACE American culture, instead of hanging on to theirs (why did they come here in the first place?) we may not be so bitter about it. Or am I way wrong on this one?

[Caliman73]

14. So where do we get our longhouses, tee pees, and horses? I knew I should have learned Navajo.

What exactly is "American" culture? Is there a cut off date as to which immigrant group can contribute to this "American" culture?

People come here because we advertise as a fairly free country where individual freedoms and differences are respected. People come here for economic opportunity. People do not come here to be told to conform to some vague "American" culture.

Sorry but you are off on this one. There is an expectation that people who move to any country respect the laws of the Nation, State, County, and Municipality in which they live, but we have had no "cultural identity" that can be called "American".

[rd_kent]

16. No, you are right about some aspects.

I guess I see American culture as the amalgamation of what others have brought here from their culture. I enjoy and encourage it. But to only follow the culture you left behind?

[Caliman73]

23. you never leave your culture behind, just your geographic location.

Culture is about how you organize and view the world. There will always be practices that need to be abandoned because they run afoul of the laws of a different country, but people don't just leave their food, their language, their religion, and other cultural aspects behind because they are seeking other opportunities in a new land.

[Romulox]

17. Our culture is embodied in our political and social institutions.

It's bizarre to think otherwise.

"People come here because we advertise as a fairly free country where individual freedoms and differences are respected. People come here for economic opportunity. People do not come here to be told to conform to some vague 'American' culture. "

Do you sense the inherent tension in what you've written? If there is no "American culture", then why would "individual freedoms and differences" be more respected here than in other countries? Something in the water? :hi:

[Caliman73]

22. No tension...

"we advertise as a fairly free country where individual freedoms and differences are respected"

I said "advertise" I did not say it was true. "Americans" seem to value individual freedoms as long as those individual freedoms are White individual freedoms. :hi: right back at you.

[Romulox]

25. Anything (and everything) human beings do is "culture"

including duplicitous advertisements...

"'Americans' seem to value individual freedoms as long as those individual freedoms are White individual freedoms. "

More tension here. If Americans have no culture, how is it possible to make generalizations? (Racism is also an example of human culture, btw.) :silly:

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. totally agree, I grew up around Mennonite and Amish. Were they practicing American culture?

What is American culture except an amalgamation of numerous cultures. It should be expected that the strongest and most influential power in the history of the world, would have little bits of the whole world woven into the culture.

"When I was a boy" there were many older generation Italian and Eastern European immigrants who still only spoke their own language genuinely fluently and pretty much kept to their own communities and maintained their own customs. The second and third generations were different, and became more mainstream.

I know a number of American citizens of Middle Eastern origin. They actually all spoke English quite well when they arrived and are exceptionally hardworking and law abiding.

People immigrate to America in hope of a better life. As long as they observe the law, they are welcome to do as they please.

Americans should be rightfully proud of the ability to assimilate people from every corner of the earth. America is great specifically because of its unique ability to assimilate and accept cultural diversity.

[JonQ]

31. Why exactly do we not have a culture?

Because we are an amalgam of other cultures?

Ok, name one "culture" out that that has successfully cut itself off from all outside influence and developed entirely on it's own. Perhaps a few stone age tribes scattered around the world, but not many.

France certainly didn't develop in a vacuum. Their language developed from latin, the Gauls were celtic in origin and moved all around the meditereanean before settling in what would be france. Since then they've adopted (mostly) a religion invented by middle eastern jews, industrialized along the british model, proudly display arts collected from across their former empire, and enjoy a democracy inspired by our own model.

No modern nation has a defined culture, it is always changing, always being contributed to by immigration. The US has built more in less time than others, and is more diverse than most, but that doesn't mean we don't have a culture, merely a more dynamic one.

And horses were a european introduction, the Indians got them from the whites. I suppose that doesn't count as part of their culture then.

[Critters2]

26. Yes. You are way wrong on this one. nt

[Dramarama]

39. Agree on assimilating, but reasons for immigrating

are usually more economical than cultural

[Raineyb]

56. ...

[LanternWaste]

60. Acculturation. The trade of cultures

Acculturation. The trade of cultures (both ways-- not one way or the other) when two cultures meet, trade and live together. It's part and parcel of human history, and it rarely matters if it's due to a war, immigration, or disease-- both cultures adapt to the other.

Mexican cuisine is part of Mexican culture-- is that something that should be given up to assimilate better? If not, what is the precise and relevant difference?

What about different regional cultures (i.e., the greater Southwest vs. New England)? Should one be given up over the other in order to have a better standardized culture?

Is there an objective and measurable test on how much culture one can retain after moving to a new country and how much one should divest of themselves from?

When I lived in Cancun, should I have stopped listening to the Beatles, stopped eating Philly cheese steak sandwiches and turned from Presbyterian to Orthodox Catholic simply because I lived on the other side of an imaginary red border drawn on a map? Else... why did I go there in the first place?


Or (and I find this more likely), would it be more effective, efficient, and peaceful to simply accept those small differences between us. Embracing and celebrating them as they are all part of the human race. Taking the best that is in all of us, and turning our backs on the worst, and overlooking insignificant distempers such as language (and I feel compelled to say that anyone can understand anyone else-- regardless of language barriers, if we simply try-- which is what we should be doing anyway).

[woo me with science]

6. We just had a heatwave, with oppressive humidity and temps over 100 degrees,

and I saw a woman and her two young daughters essentially wearing burkas as they walked down a busy street.

It's hard to feel good about that "choice."

[Recursion]

8. They were probably wearing niqaab

There's a significant religious distinction, if only a small cosmetic distinction to us.

[woo me with science]

38. Thank you.

I'll look them up. Abaya, niqaab, burqa....I need to learn what the words actually mean.

[auditguy]

13. no need for quotes around choice...

there are any number of choices people make that disturb others...in a case like this one where it harms no one else it's called freedom...

[woo me with science]

37. This is true.

I dislike cultural traditions that seem to oppress women. I can't justify government intervention in something as personal as clothing, though.

[BlooInBloo]

15. (shrug) As long as it's *THEIR* choice, it should be permitted...

Assuming their free choice doesn't harm others, naturally.

[woo me with science]

36. I pretty much agree with you.

I don't want government regulating clothing. It was damned hot, though, and I felt sorry for the kids.

[Critters2]

27. You're disturbed by other people's choice of clothing?

Yeah, that's progressive. :eyes:

[woo me with science]

35. Your snarkiness is noted.

Yes, it disturbs me, only because I have empathy for how hot it must be. That doesn't mean that I am looking for government intervention. I hope you enjoyed your snark and feelings of superiority, though.

[Critters2]

40. She was planning to wear it in a swimming pool,

which should solve the problem of being hot.

[Raineyb]

55. That's a load of crap

They seem to be only concerned about one particular religion.

[redqueen]

59. Bullshit. (nt)

[sweetpotato]

5. This thread is useless without photos

I never thought I'd be posting that.

[Rob H.]

11. This is a 'burqini'

Edit: Oops, looks like NYC_SKP beat me to it by a few minutes.

[Critters2]

28. Seems harmless enough. I don't see the problem. nt

[Taverner]

9. Thing is this is not the same as banning hajibs in classrooms

School is a place of learning. If you want to bring in superstition , do it elsewhere. Goes back to the old adage "If you don't pray in my school I promise not to think in your church/mosque/temple"

A pool, however, is a different story. She should be allowed her wetsuit (which is essentially what it is)

[kiva]

12. This story is absolute nonsense.

The law is not anti-Muslim or anti-women; from the Guardian:

In French public pools, from the racing lanes of Paris to the open-air lidos and water parks of the south, anything bigger than Speedos is banned and you must hoist yourself into a posing pouch as a civic requirement. French changing rooms are littered with the broken dreams of prudish males abroad who thought they could sneak in a few lengths without showing their contours.

One Paris-based Irish journalist recalls how he attempted some early-morning back-stroke in a pair of standard Marks & Spencer navy swim shorts that came "about halfway down my thighs". As he lowered himself into the shallow end, the pool attendant screamed that his oversized attire was outlawed. "I said they were being ridiculous and glided into the middle of the pool. A lifeguard jumped into the water after me, three other attendants fetched a big hook for fishing out drowning people and hauled me in. I had to come back in an unbelievably skimpy pair that were somehow acceptable, but bloody uncomfortable for me and anyone who had to look at them."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/12/speedos-fashion

[PVnRT]

18. You're right. The law is fucking idiotic.

[Poll_Blind]

21. Oh my God- I love the French for shit like this. It's like demanding someone must bring a doobie to

...a party or they'll shut it down.

PB

[Dramarama]

24. QFT

Yamulkes and crosses are apparently banned in the schools. Don't understand the cross though, considering it doesn't seem like a "distraction"

[kiva]

54. As I understand it, this is simply a reflection of the fact

that France is a secular nation and doesn't allow any religious garb in their schools, something I'd love to see the US emulate.

[Critters2]

57. You'd like laws dictating what people should wear?

That's disturbing.

[kiva]

61. Try reading that again.

The law isn't about 'what people should wear' it's about what students and teachers should NOT wear in a public school, specifically any religious apparel. If anyone can't abide not wearing their religious symbols, then they can go to a private religious school. And yes, I think that's a great idea.

[Critters2]

62. You're afraid of people's clothes?

How sad for you.

[kiva]

65. Can you really comprehend the written word?

Did I say I was 'afraid'...no, that's just you making things up again. I said that I agree that religion has no place in the public school system.

[LisaL]

67. So WTF are they afraid off?

Has anybody ever got some horrible disease from a man just because this man was swimming in shorts?

[dorkulon]

29. Try wearing a t-shirt in Afghanistan.

They'll fucking kill you. I can see why the French might not feel all that tolerant toward the most intolerant culture on the planet.

[proteus_lives]

33. +1

Yeah, it's very hypocritical.

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. the woman in question was not from Afghanistan.

[redqueen]

32. The French are fair about their fastidiousness.

I have no problem with it.

[Critters2]

42. Please. I've been to France. They shower once a week,

whether they need it or not.

[redqueen]

44. Do they jump in your bathtub with you?

They shower before they get in the pool. You did know that, right?

Also, this is just ugly and stupid:

"Please. I've been to France. They shower once a week, "

[Critters2]

47. The French are not particularly fastidious.

There's no logical reason not to let this woman wear her swimsuit of choice.

[redqueen]

49. France is notorious for swimming pool hygiene. (nt)

[readmoreoften]

46. I agree with the OP but not the rest of the segment.

Women wear bikini tops in public with shorts all the time. Are the French going to force toplessness next, in the name of health and safety? The burqini is made of swimsuit material. The idea of mandating tight-fitting clothes and nudity is as ludicrous as mandating loose-fitting clothes. And it is certainly no less sexist.

[redqueen]

50. Um, men are forced to wear speedos. It's not sexist at all. (nt)

[Critters2]

53. Not sexist, but ridiculous. Just equally ridiculous to everyone. nt

[mamaleah]

58. Maybe it's that they feel as though

modesty is being pushed on them by the modestly dressed, so they push back by forcing almost nothing to be worn.

Damn I hope they aren't that nutsy.

[DutchLiberal]

63. This has become an issue in The Netherlands, too.

Essentially, it became an issue thanks to right-wing populists politicians who have seized on this non-issue to fabricate a conspiracy theory about an "attack on Dutch culture" by muslims. Never mind that actual Dutch culture for hundreds of years has been about accepting people from all different religions and allow them their own ways of life...

I mean, of course I'd rather see a woman in a bikini than in a "burqini", but why should I give a fuck what they're wearing when swimming? The right-wing is acting like Dutch non-muslim women are being forced to wear burqini's.

[kiva]

64. Again, not anti-Muslim,

no one - male or female of any religious persuasion - is allowed to wear any swimsuit with an excess of fabric.

[LisaL]

68. What do they think the excess fabric is going to do?

I think it's ridiculous.
Are they measuring how much fabric someone can wear?

[kiva]

71. They claim hygine...

seems odd, but apparently they enforce it according the the Guardian article.

[DutchLiberal]

72. The right-wing in Holland is *making* it into an anti-muslim issue.

It is being framed as muslims 'forcing their way of life on us'.