Um...Why was "Squeaky" Fromme released?

[Haole Girl]

Manson 'family' member released

A follower of 1960s cult leader Charles Manson has been freed from jail after serving nearly 34 years for trying to kill then-President Gerald Ford.
Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, 60, was convicted in 1975.
She was freed from the Federal Medical Center Carswell in Fort Worth, Texas, at about 0800 (1400BST) on Friday.
She was not involved in the 1969 Manson "family" murder of actress Sharon Tate. Manson himself is serving life for murdering Ms Tate and eight others.

Fromme received a life sentence for pointing a gun at Mr Ford at an event in Sacramento, California.
Secret service agents managed to restrain Fromme and Mr Ford was unhurt in the incident.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8202137.stm


------

This woman always gave me the chills (as did the rest of the Manson Family). She seemed very dangerous to me.

:crazy:

[AzDar]

1. She served her time. Why are Bush/Cheney not in jail?

Squeaky killed no one.

[Haole Girl]

2. She attempted to kill a President

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxjggckztOY

Her sentence was life. Life.

[Critters2]

6. Life with the possibility of parole. She's been paroled.

She can play in the NFL now, if she wants.

[Haole Girl]

8. It just...

frightens me. For lack of a better word. She had NO remorse about attempting to kill then President Ford. None.

[pitohui]

15. well she tried to "kill" him w.out a bullet

i think it's not necessarily all that easy for a psychotic person to express remorse for something they didn't really do and they don't even really know why they did it

manson had been in prison quite a long while before ford even became president

[azmouse]

42. I have no feelings one or the other about Fromme's release but

did you know the Manson Family hated Nixon with a passion. It stemmed from Nixon declaring Manson guilty before his trial was over.
The Family then hated Ford because he pardoned Nixon. That was the reason they went after Ford. No one could prove that Charles Manson ordered the hit on Ford but Fromme was in charge of the Family after Manson was jailed and it's believed she did it to impress Manson.

[LeftyMom]

113. There were four rounds in the gun, she just didn't know how to chamber a round.

So she dry-fired and a secret service agent grabbed the gun and jammed his finger in the trigger before she got off another shot. She was trying to kill Ford, and if she'd actually practiced with the gun first he'd probably have died.

[Vinnie From Indy]

18. Oh please!

Do you really think that after THRITY FOUR years in prison that the first thing this 60+ year old woman is going to do is try and shoot or hurt someone? Your fear is irrational and your post is over the top melodramatic.

Also, how in the fuck do you know whether she is remorseful or not? Are you two pen pals?

[Haole Girl]

22. Don't insult me personally

People paroled do return to their old lives... more often than we'd like to think.

[Vinnie From Indy]

32. Sorry about the perceived insult, but you are being unfair, cruel and judgemental.

You have absolutely NO proof beyond your bizarre and unsubstantiated "fear" that this woman will do anything to anybody.

[Haole Girl]

38. Sorry about the perceived "cruelty"

Like I said, time will tell.

[Chemisse]

50. I agree with you Vinnie

People who have served their time have earned the right to be released and let alone. After that many years she is probably just a shell of a person anyway.

[Warpy]

44. Return to their old lives?

The Manson Family is no more. Either they had their lives ruined to the extent that they'll probably never get out of prison or they turned respectable.

The only former life Fromme has to return to is her blood family, or what's left of it.

She did her time. She's an old lady and no threat to anyone except unforgiving SOBs with overactive imaginations.

[Haole Girl]

46. Alright. So now I have an "overactive imagination"?

At least I never fired a gun (with the first round only missing or not) at someone.

[H2O Man]

54. But what if

they hold a "Family Reunion"?

[Haole Girl]

57. lol!

Gawd... if I ever needed some levity. I'm signing off on that note.

And to all of those defending her actions? Well.... I hope I am wrong about her.

[stevedeshazer]

60. Squeaky could hold up the local senior center and replay the White Album on that old piano they have

Hey, anything's possible.

[BuelahWitch]

84. Yeah, old people are never a threat to anyone

Tell that to those who were shot by that 87 year old nut at the Holocaust Museum. Squeaky's a kid next to him.

[Heidi]

118. Since you know more than the rest of us "think," please provide statistics to support your claim.

I'm sure you'll think I'm being unduly harsh, but I do wish you'd entertain the possibility that your perceptions of this case may very well have been shaped by crime TV, conservative propaganda and crime novels posing as authentic, well-researched literature.

OF COURSE, some people return to their pre-incarceration behavior paterns; but if you're going to argue against this person's release and attempt to stir up irrational fear, please do be so kind as to support blanket statements like "more often than we'd like to think" with some facts to support your contention.

[slampoet]

110. Did you ever MEET president Ford? I did.

If YOU had you wouldn't be scared.


Hell why are YOU scared? Puleeze with the hyperbole.

[G_j]

9. heard this on NPR yesterday

after she was taken into custody, she told police she had ejected the cartridge at her house. The gun was not loaded, and they found the ejected cartridge in her bathroom.

[Captain Hilts]

11. I did not know that. nt

[Haole Girl]

12. Here's the whole story:

There were four bullets in the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-fJGxTfeqI (4:41 on the vid)

[G_j]

26. I guess they were saying the chamber was empty

thanks for the clip

[SoCalNative]

35. Sara Jane Moore's sentence was life too. But she was paroled before Squeaky.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/01/MN2UU7JA4.DTL

[customerserviceguy]

59. "Life" doesn't mean life, that's why there is support for a death penalty

because some shyster lawyer can get it reduced down to "life without possibility of parole", and wash his hands of the matter, since he "did something" for the client.

That's why I believe in keeping the death penalty on the books. If the maximum penalty is life without possibility of parole, then the shyster will try for "life with parole". And there are just some criminals who absolutely deserve never to see a single day of freedom ever again.

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. Wow..."shyster lawyer"

:wow:

[H2O Man]

65. Even on DU.

[customerserviceguy]

71. Not all lawyers are "good guys"

Some just game the system for fun and profit. That's who I'm including in this.

Like I said, a death penalty that gets reduced to life without parole lets the lawyer who is under bar association pressure to "do something for the client" to say he did it. And we're all safer in the process.

[H2O Man]

74. Oh, I know

plenty of attorneys, and several who have been removed from the bar. I believe the focus was on a specific word you used in a couple of posts.

[customerserviceguy]

79. Yeah, here's a definition:

"A shyster is someone, who acts in a disreputable, unethical or unscrupulous way, especially in the practice of law and politics." Disreputable is the way I would describe someone who knows that his client is guilty as fucking sin, yet wants to get them off in some way, without regard to the public safety, or the basic rightness/wrongness of the situation.

[newcriminal]

89. Disreputable? It's called doing your job.

A lot of times lawyers know their client is guilty. It is their job to do what they can with the client they have. The state has to prove their guilty, and anything to get your client less time (as long as it's ethical) is exactly what the lawyer is suppose to do.

[DefenseLawyer]

99. You really have no understanding of our criminal justice system.

First of all, we have an adversarial system. That means that in our system we have deemed that the best way to get to the truth is to have any evidence presented challenged and tested, within the rules of procedure and the rules of evidence. Secondly, we have a written constitution which provided that anyone accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. This is an abstract concept, obviously one that is beyond your ability to grasp. Don't fret, you aren't alone. However, when you speak of an attorney defending a client that he "knows is guilty", well under our system of law that is impossible. No one is guilty until that guilt as been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury or a judge, or until he or she admits guilt. The defense attorney's job is not to "do something for his client" it is simply to insure that his client receives a fair trial. The government, whether at a state or federal level, is a powerful entity, with great resources at its disposal. It should be difficult for the state to take away an individual's freedom. One need only look to countries which have no legal protections for the accused to see how those systems are used to jail people on trumped up charges for political, personal or monetary reasons. If the government brings a case that they cannot prove, and the person goes free, that is justice; just as much as if the government brings a case successfully.
The defense attorney's role does not change based on his personal belief as to whether is client is culpable. The most "guilty" man facing charges deserves to be treated just as fairly as the most "innocent". The rules don't change, the burden does not shift. This is as it should be. Thousands of people in our system that everyone "knew" were guilty have, though DNA and other evidence, been shown to have been innocent. Because we are all fallible, we must give everyone a fair trial.
As to your odd belief that criminal defense lawyers are unethical, I would simple suggest that you watch too many movies and not enough trials. You might be surprised to see that the number of prosecutors sanctioned for unethical behavior, suborning perjury, withholding evidence, etc, far outstrips the number of defense lawyers so charged. I don't really expect you to accept or understand any of what I have said. It's not very black and white, and it will probably make your head hurt, assuming you even read this far down.

[customerserviceguy]

69. Yes, shyster lawyer

Someone who after defending someone who is as obviously guilty as fucking sin, still tries to get the criminal a lighter sentence. Someone who considers truth and justice to be mere obstacles on the way to the "result".

I'm not including in that any lawyers who defend a client who has a shadow of a chance that the client is possibly innocent, and in addition to the ones who defend caught-red-handed murderers and child rapists, I'm including anybody who would defend Ken Lay or Bernie Madoff, or anyone of their ilk.

I remember Bernie's shyster lawyers trying to get him a mere twelve year sentence for the evil that he committed, glad they lost big time on that.

[H2O Man]

70. Words have meaning.

I suspect that was the meaning of the response.

[DefenseLawyer]

86. Due process is an abstraction.

It's hard for some people to grasp. Hopefully you or a loved one are never accused of a crime, but if you are I certainly hope that there will be a shyster willing to make sure you are treated fairly.

[newcriminal]

90. Exactly!

[BuelahWitch]

93. Hopefully you or a loved one will never be brutally murdered by a cult

like the Manson family. I can't fucking believe how people can defend those murderers.

[newcriminal]

95. First, she didn't murder anyone.

Second, the post that you are posting to is about lawyers defending their clients. How can they defend them? If that is your question. Again the answer is easy. It's their job, and if they didn't do everything possible to get them off or less time they should be disbarred.

[HughMoran]

98. Let's see one single post defending a murderer

I'll be waiting...

[DefenseLawyer]

101. If I am brutally murdered

I would hope that any person accused of brutally murdering me would received a fair trial.

[FarCenter]

104. Life doesn't mean for life: that's why the death penalty is a good idea

People given a life sentence usually get out.

On the other hand, there is very little recidivism among those who have been executed.

Of course, her crime would not have warranted the death penalty. She didn't even get a shot off. It is unclear whether she could have squeezed the grip hard enough on a 45 Colt automatic to fire it.

[newcriminal]

105. The death penalty is a good idea?

Do you know how many innocent people have been executed?

[customerserviceguy]

125. I do know that DNA evidence has cleared some people

Similarly, DNA evidence can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the police have caught the correct perpetrator, unless we're dealing with the OJ case.

At this point in time, I would expect that DNA testing would be a standard part of any capital crime investigation and trial. That makes it far more certain that the death penalty's application is going to the guilty party. If you want to argue its application across class/racial lines, then that's a reasonable point that is still unsettled as to fairness in parts of this country, I suppose.

[Fire1]

3. I've got a pretty good idea. n/t

[Haole Girl]

5. Tell me

I'm curious.

[pitohui]

4. i thought the gun was unloaded, so she was not really dangerous

someone PLEASE correct me if i have the wrong person here

i was under the impression that she was never a danger to anyone, rather, she was a mentally ill person who made a bad choice at a very bad time

she's old and ill, lots of people who did worse got a lot less time

[Haole Girl]

7. Have you read "Helter Skelter"?

The Manson Family was extremely dangerous.

The gun was loaded.

[pitohui]

10. yes and she was definitely NOT involved in the helter skelter murders

i may be confused but i'm not THAT confused -- no one has ever made that claim

squeaky fromme was from the ford era, and it's ford she attempted to assassinate to get manson's attention if it was a serious attempt at all rather than a cry for help

the manson helter skelter murders took place in 1969 (nixon was president and there was a lot of racial strife going down that manson played upon) -- the helter skelter/sharon tate murders involved a different group of people

not squeaky fromme, she killed no one

[Haole Girl]

16. It was never proven that she was

She WAS part of the cult. Still worships the ground Charles Manson walks on. She is dangerous.

[Vinnie From Indy]

27. LOL!

WTF? How do you know she still worships Manson? Please offer just a shred of proof that she is still dangerous?

People like you make me sick. You are simply spouting bullshit about someone that has paid their debt to society. Do you really think that all the people responsible for her release are so incompetent that they would release her if they thought she were a danger to anyone. How about you go fuck off with your judgemental bullshit and melodramatic whining?

[Haole Girl]

28. Youtube it. I'm tired of having to prove this shit. Time will tell. nt

[Haole Girl]

29. Youtube it. I'm tired of having to prove this shit. Time will tell. nt

[pitohui]

30. "youtube" it? some of us actually lived back then

you're just being silly now

how many people has hinckley killed since his release? and he was a far more dangerous person than squeaky fromme

i just don't know how people can live w. so much fear over nothing really

[Haole Girl]

34. I was 14, living in Sacramento California at the time. nt

[BuelahWitch]

91. Hinckley hasn't been released

Sounds like you're the silly one now.

[Chemisse]

53. Link please.

[Haole Girl]

55. That she was part of the Manson cult? Post #2...post #12. Watch them. nt

[Chemisse]

80. Videos? My dial up can't handle them

I will have to take your word for it that she continued to be loyal to the cult right up to current times.

[cabluedem]

37. Gun was loaded but not cocked. Gave SS time to tackle her to the ground. nt

[Haole Girl]

51. Sigh.... she fired once. First round was empty. IF they hadn't gotten to her in time...

I think we know what would have happened. There were FOUR bullets in the clip.

[cabluedem]

122. The gun was cocked? Thats not what I remember. nt

[Roland99]

14. I believe there were four bullets in the gun but nothing in the chamber.

[Haole Girl]

17. See post #12. nt

[pitohui]

25. are you this afraid of john hinckley who actually killed someone and injured a sitting president?

or is it just media, media fear, fear manson, manson hysteria?

c'mon, you're being totally played

i'm more afraid of you than i am of squeaky fromme and, let's face it, i'm not afraid of you, i just feel a little sorry for you that you're so stressed over a 60 yr old sick woman enjoying some tiny amount of mercy

hinckley's been out for years (released 2005, per google) and before that he got out on weekend passes, and he actually DID shoot a sitting usa president

how long would you like to see someone punished for being sick? forever?

[JeanGrey]

67. When was Hinckley released? He's still in, as far as I know.

[mitchum]

76. Hinckley has not been released...

he receives a few days annually of supervised furlough
and then it's back to custody for him

[DefenseLawyer]

87. Hinkley was acquitted

He was found not guilty by reason of insanity. He's been committed to a mental institution, but not as a result of a criminal conviction.

[mitchum]

106. Technically yes, but you well know that he can't go just come and go at his leisure...

from St Elizabeth's (which is where I assume he still "resides"...and presumably against his will)

[DefenseLawyer]

108. That's because he has been involuntarily committed

In a separate civil proceeding. This country has plenty of insane people who are held "against their will" who have never even been accused of a crime. He was acquitted.

[pitohui]

20. thanks roland

this woman paid a high price for being mentally ill in my humble view


how long has john hinckley been free? and he actually shot reagan plus killed a secret service agent

[hfojvt]

19. I heard that the gun misfired

Had this not happened, she would have put several holes in Ford. Now they write it like the Secret Service stopped her.

Could be the story I read was crap. It's gonna be hard to find an accurate account now.

[Haole Girl]

24. See post #2 and #12. nt

[cabluedem]

31. She didnt load a bullet into the chamber. That is called Cocking a gun. The SS jumped her. nt

[cabluedem]

23. She didnt cock the gun. When she pulled the trigger there was no round to fire. The gun was loaded.

[boppers]

36. Well, that's a loaded way of looking at it.

If it was a revolver, and she had pulled the trigger again, it would have fired when it got to a loaded chamber.

Being a semi-automatic, she could have pulled the trigger 50 times without a shot ever being fired, because no round was ever loaded into a firing chamber. Cocking the *hammer* wouldn't have changed that, either. Only *chambering* a round would have changed it.

typo: trigger/hammer

[Haole Girl]

41. thanks boppers

President Ford nearly paid with his life for being there at that moment.

[boppers]

58. It always struck me as odd that she un-chambered, but kept the magazine.

Maybe there was something in her thinking where she thought she would get more attention if the weapon was perceived as "loaded" by some.

Maybe it worked.

[cabluedem]

123. I stand corrected. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

13. Now, Sara Jane Moore actually fired a couple of shots. She's still in the cooler. nt

[SoCalNative]

33. Um..no. Sara Jane Moore was paroled in 2007

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/01/MN2UU7JA4.DTL

[Captain Hilts]

43. wow! She must be VERY old...nt

[Crabby Appleton]

47. She is, nearly 80, I saw an interview on TV with her a few months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ_py3bTb3s

[Captain Hilts]

52. Thanks, I'll check it out. nt

[Crabby Appleton]

39. Sara Jane Moore was paroled in Dec '07.

[TheCowsCameHome]

21. Remember the old axiom: "The squeaky wheel gets released"

or something like that.

[sandnsea]

40. Because she's 60 years old

They all ought to be released, except for Manson. I don't think any of them continue to consider themselves his followers.

[Haole Girl]

45. In all of the interviews I've seen she says she is still a Manson follower. nt

[Chemisse]

56. I find it hard to believe she is saying she is a Manson follower

While going up for parole. Do you have a link for this?

[Haole Girl]

72. Ok. My curiosity got to me. So I found a link for you

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/081509dnnatfromme.dc8a1919.html

Manson and Fromme have reportedly corresponded over the years and she remains a loyal follower, although others in his so-called clan have repudiated him.

I'm sure there are plenty of other links if you'd like to research it further.

I'm finished with this discussion.

:hi:

[Chemisse]

83. Interesting - she did not seek parole

According to your link:

In a 2005 letter to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Fromme wrote: “No parole hearing has been held for me because I haven’t requested one. I stood up and waved a gun for a reason.”

But after 30 years behind bars, a parole hearing is automatically scheduled for people serving life sentences.

[alcibiades_mystery]

68. Van Houten and Beausoleil should probably be released

Atkins and Krenwinkle should do another five.

Watson should not get out. And, of course, Manson has proved himself an extremely dangerous predicate felon and should be housed by the state for the rest of his life.

Despite Atkins' jailhouse bragging, there's pretty good evidence that Watson killed ALL of the Tate LaBianca victims himself, with probably Krenwinkle as second most culpable. Van Houten might be culpable for Rosemarie LaBianca, but was not even at Cielo Drive. It's more likely that Rosemarie LabIanca was already dead when Van Houten stabbed her. As for Beausoleil, his continued imprisonment is a farce. He's good for the Hinman murder, but would probably have gotten out in the 1980's if he didn't have the Manson tag on his jacket. The time he's served for the Hinman murder is completely disproportional to any other late Sixties murder conviction in the the entire state of California. Once again, Beausoliel was already locked up when Tate-LaBianca went down.

[SoCalNative]

77. Susan Atkins is not likely to live another 5 years

she's had a leg amputated, is paralyzed over 85% of her body and is suffering from brain cancer. She was only supposed to have about 6 months to live a little over a year ago, but from what I've heard she is basically comatose and it's only a matter of time.

Her next parole hearing is September 02 of this year.

[alcibiades_mystery]

85. If I was running it, I'd probably give her the medical release

She's served 40 years.

Then again, I'm against life without parole for almost all offenders. I think it is an unjust and stupid punishment, especially when applied to people in their 20's.

[sandnsea]

81. I'll defer to you

That all sounds about right, been too long since I read any of the details. I was mostly referring to Leslie Van Houten. The rest seemed a little nuttier.

[WeDidIt]

48. She's going to have a tail for the rest of her life

FBI and Secret Service Agents of the future will always know their careers have hit rock bottom when they get assigned to the Squeaky Fromme detail.

[Haole Girl]

49. Honestly, I hope so. nt

[aikoaiko]

61. I think it would be good law to make all assasination attempts = life no parole.

[Stinky The Clown]

62. Does anyone have a recent image of her?

[Canuckistanian]

63. 34 years for attempted murder? I think that's long enough

The justice system doesn't make any distinctions about WHO you try to murder. Besides, the man she tried to kill died long ago.

And besides, there's no crime in being creepy. They'd have to build EXTRA jails if you want to jail all the creepy people.

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. Any association with Manson gets you another 15-20 years on your sentence, minimum

It is, of course, completely ludicrous that media attention and cultural valence of a crime should affect parole decisions, but we know that's the way it works. People who committed far more grotesque murders than some of the Manson people in the late Sixties have mostly long been paroled, because they don't "creep out" newspaper readers and whatnot.

[tabasco]

66. Assassinations change the course of history.

I've seen too many just in my lifetime.

Any asshole who tries to kill a President should get life and THROW AWAY THE KEY.

[madamesilverspurs]

75. Yes, and it's a very uncomfortable coincidence

that she is released while Obama is getting more death threats than ever. No, I don't think she'll try anything. But the freakout factor is already pretty high, timing could have been better.

[jmowreader]

78. Easy. They needed a cell for Orly Taitz.

[BuelahWitch]

82. Somebody in TX hopes she'll go after another president?

:shrug: Very strange that they decide to release her NOW when a black man is in office. Manson was a racist pig, and it's not too hard to speculate that some of his followers shared his feelings.

[Deja Q]

88. They let that vermin out of prison? WHY?! Oh well, it's just more proof

how dumb society has become.

It's amazing they haven't let Charles out for "good behavior" too, good grief.

[dorkulon]

92. All I know is the NFL better not let her play. nt

[hippywife]

94. Geez, people.

Can't you ever have a discussion around here. Why are people always ready to jump on someone instead of calmly discussing an issue? You don't have enemies here, you know. :crazy:

[Hamlette]

96. she has cancer, the state was tired of paying for her med bills n/t

[Haole Girl]

97. Thank you. I did not know.

Sounds like she's too ill to be a threat. It makes more sense now.

I found a link:

http://www.groundreport.com/US/Manson-Follower-Lynette-Squeaky-Fromme-Released-Fr

[Chemisse]

100. omg - so they give her parole even though she didn't ask for it

So she could be out on the streets homeless with no insurance and die from cancer.

Why does it always come back to health care?

[Hamlette]

107. it is brain cancer, apparently advanced

I was actually being cynical when I said that they let her go because of her cancer. But I couldn't help thinking that when I heard how sick she is.

[BuelahWitch]

121. No, that's Susan Atkins

There were lots of Manson Girls, but only about 5 or so that were notorious. Not that difficult to keep them straight.

[ContinentalOp]

112. Seriously? Sounds like a good opportunity...

"Thanks to the Republicans dragging their feet on health care reform, Manson family murderers are being let out of prison because their health care is too expensive!" :evilgrin:

[BuelahWitch]

120. I think y'all, and the link provided, are mixing Squeaky up with Susan Atkins

Atkins has brain cancer and is still incarcerated in California.
Nothing in this CNN report says anything about cancer:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/05/squeaky.fromme.release/

[Politicalboi]

102. Maybe the Bush's need

A maid.

[RetroLounge]

103. Yeah, lets lock her up because you have "chills"

:eyes:

God this place has become a joke...

RL

[Haole Girl]

109. I said she always "gave me chills." I thought you had better command of ...

the English language Retro.

And to think I missed you.

:eyes:

[RetroLounge]

114. So for the 30+ years she's been in jail you've had "chills" about her?

That's even better...

:eyes:

RL

[Heidi]

111. What? No outrage that Sara Jane Moore was released 20 months ago?

And she hasn't killed a single person so far. Funny thing, that. :hi:

[RetroLounge]

115. I guess SJM didn't give her enough "chills"

:hi:

RL

[Heidi]

116. It's funny how crime TV (and pulp crime novels posing as literature) bend one's perceptions,

isn't it? Perhaps "funny" isn't the right term, though.

P.S: RetroLounge, you are missed. :*

[RetroLounge]

124. Thanks Heidi, I apreciate that.

But I don't hang where I am not welcome.

:hi:

RL

[WCGreen]

117. The Squeaky Fromme get the oil....

[deaniac21]

119. 1. Ford was rebublican

2. She couldn't even get a round off

[spanone]

126. 34 years in jail is a long time