subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:11 AM
Original message |
So what is wrong with co-ops? |
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That is a real question, not flame bait. Seriously, I bank with a co-op (credit union) and like it a lot more than a for-profit bank that charges fees out the wazoo. I used to buy all my groceries at a co-op, before circumstances found me back in redneckistan. I mean isn't the problem the profit motive in our current insurance system - not a lack of federal agencies.
And even if the co-ops aren't as good as a public option and a public option isn't as good as single-payer, aren't they all three better than the current system?
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Laelth
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message |
1. The better question is, "What's wrong with single payer?" |
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I am tired of being sold out and then being asked to be happy about it.
:dem:
-Laelth
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subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
2. no, that's avoiding the question |
Laelth
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. It is, I admit, avoiding your question. I apologize to the extent I hijacked your thread. |
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By all means, carry on.
:dem:
-Laelth
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Overseas
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
15. It isn't really avoiding the question. Coops are avoiding Single Payer. |
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They are ways to delay giving us Medicare for All. And keeping a govt system privatized.
And I believe the guy who paid the largest Medicare fraud penalty in history is in favor of those coops-- Rick Scott.
They are a palliative measure and delaying tactic as currently presented.
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subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
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has never been under consideration. Obama opposed it during the campaign. saying it is a way to avoid single payer makes as much since as saying it is a way to avoid a rocket ship to the sun.
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John Q. Citizen
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
23. it is getting a full house debate and a full floor vote, so Obama was wrong. There is a lot |
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of support for Medicare for all.
Of course, it's not being supported by those who are looking out for the interests of the criminal insurance racket. That's certainly true.
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RaleighNCDUer
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
39. Just because it has never been under consideration, it doesn't mean it |
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should not BE under consideration.
How can we fairly judge and decide on co-ops, public options or single-payer if the conversation doesn't include ALL the options and their various strengths?
That's like asking what flavor of vanilla you want.
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Orsino
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Mon Aug-17-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
32. No. Single-payer is the elephant in the emergency room. |
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Single-payer has a long, proven track record in Medicare, not to mention in nationalized health programs in other countries. By eliminating the profit motive, assuring universal coverage, and by socializing the costs in the largest possible pool of taxpayers, single-payer could be the cheapest, simplest delivery means for health care.
To answer your question more directly, though, coops could share all those advantages to lesser extents. A not-for-profit coop run statewide, with few provisions allowing for coverage to be terminated, could still kick the collective ass of the private insurers of today. The devil is in the details, of course, but in principle I would say that the only thing wrong with coops is that they are a way to avoid implementing the most efficient and humane coverage.
Could be a good compromise, and seems much more likely to pass Congress. Best of all, we could see single-payer more clearly from there, so coops might gain us momentum in the larger cause.
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demwing
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
3. Thats your opinion, and a dodge, I should add |
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Don't change the question just because it isnt your friend
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subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
5. So you can't tell me what would be wrong with co-ops? |
demwing
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
33. My understanding is that the co-ops |
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would be regional, not national, and thus have a built in inability to deal with persons who lose their insurance when they move from one region to another. Also, there is some question about whether the co-ops would offer sufficiently lower costs. In all honesty, I have no problem with the co-op issue myself, as a general principal, but I'm still trying to learn the details.
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Laelth
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
6. I apologized above. By all means, carry on. n/t |
subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
12. your cool, no apology necessary |
Echo In Light
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
8. You know how this 'reform' will end, but some will applaud wildly nonetheless |
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... that the lame, weak, tired, compromised, watered down, corporate-friendly, profits over people bill is so much more than what it is, all the while tsk-tsking everyone else for being "immature," and "impatient." Count on it ;)
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Jakes Progress
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
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but let's say there is a bill that does nothing but prohibit companies from denying care to those with pre-existing conditions. wouldn't anyone who votes against it because it isn't enough be screwing those of us with pre-existing conditions?
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NYC_SKP
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:18 AM
Response to Original message |
7. My opinion? Co-ops are corruptible. So is the Public Option. So is Single Payer. |
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There are plenty of examples of mismanaged and corrupt programs for each of these system types.
None of the systems proposed is free from these possible pitfalls.
In any case what is needed is strict oversight and transparency, a high level of regulation.
:patriot:
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Fire1
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
19. Ain't THAT the truth. n/t |
rurallib
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:19 AM
Response to Original message |
9. Think of co-ops as HMOs |
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the similarities are incredible. Regional co-ops will not have the necessary pool sizes and diversity to lower cost of insurance. Plus and the biggest thing is that insurance companies will be in charge. See HMOs to see how it will play out. I'll guarantee it will be the same. And 15 years from now health care will be even much, much worse if you can imagine how much worse it could get.
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subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
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So basically the problem is that the co-op really wouldn't have the bargaining power to get lower rates?
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SoCalDem
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Mon Aug-17-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
31. and they can "choose" to participate..or not. |
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In the beginning, some would surely "join" for a while, and then remove themselves, diluting the pool and before long it would collapse.
If the govt loves the idea of competition so much, why not just divvie the country up between the big insurers...perhaps by timezone, and set a 5 year plan.. Whoever does the best job of providing the best care for the least expense to subscribers, gets the national "contract"..no one wants to think outside the box.
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baldguy
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:19 AM
Response to Original message |
10. Unlike other co-ops, an insurance co-op wouldn't be an insurance *provider* |
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Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 09:20 AM by baldguy
They would only act as an insurance *broker*. It would be a way for you to join a pool where private insurers could offer their policies. The private insurers would still be in charge of the system.
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MNDemNY
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 09:20 AM by MNDemNY
The public option WILL kill off insurance companies , as we know them. That is the point. Anything short of that is a sell-out to the corporatists.
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sharesunited
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
28. It doesn't necessarily kill them off, but they would need to radically change their business model. |
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Medicare co-exists with a thriving for-profit industry in supplemental, gap, boutique plans designed to dovetail with the government plan.
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MNDemNY
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Mon Aug-17-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
29. That would be where they need to be. |
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Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 10:12 AM by MNDemNY
As I said 'as we know them"
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waiting
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message |
13. Blue Cross/ Blue Shield started as a co-op. |
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It is also costly and doesn't give much back in return.
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RUMMYisFROSTED
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message |
14. Too small risk pools. |
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Hindering the ability to control costs with maximum leverage.
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Viper Mad
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message |
17. Nothing at all, in principle. An honestly and well-run coop in virtually any field can be |
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very beneficial; our electricity coop is a good example. But being exempt from some regulation can lead to problems as well as helping to keep rates low if it's not administrated properly.
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MNDemNY
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
20. This is NO co-op, Just a not for profit "clearinghouse". |
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A non-profit "middle-man" , if you will.
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phantom power
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message |
21. What is "wrong" with them is... |
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that they are a smaller, less-powerful version of fully nationalized health insurance.
Or, look at it the other way: what's good about them would be much better if you extend it to a "co-op" comprised of 300 million people, backed by the negotiating power of the federal govt.
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subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:34 AM
Response to Original message |
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thank you to those who are answering this question sensibly. and to whomever unreced a simple question, grow up.
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Romulox
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message |
24. What's wrong is that "co ops" are not enough of compromise in return |
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for MANDATORY, for-profit healthcare.
We can form healthcare co-ops without any mandate to do so, and we have not. Wonder why? :hi:
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subcomhd
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #24 |
25. I wondered that as well |
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Can a co-op not be created now?
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OHdem10
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:41 AM
Response to Original message |
26. First off they have been tried and never worked. |
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Second: Put everyone Into Private Insurance. Medicare will die on the vine. Let us be honest the GOP will regain power in this country at some point. The CO-OPs provide the means for their moment of achievement End Medicare and start cutting subsiies and we once again have large groups of uninsured. Roger Norquists' greatest fantasy.
But first of all they have not worked and will not work.
As Progressives, we must insist on a government involvement in order to protect Medicare.
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Stevenmarc
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Mon Aug-17-09 09:44 AM
Response to Original message |
27. Co-ops are handing the insurance industry a bait and switch scheme |
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The insurance industry will be running these non-profit co-ops they will happily sign up everyone they can get their hands on and as time goes by you will see a decline in service and some very convenient upgrade paths into the for profit plans. This is the insurance industry equivalent to no money down mortgages and we saw were that went.
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undeterred
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Mon Aug-17-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message |
30. I've heard that there are only two that have lasted |
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and they don't work very well.
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quiller4
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Mon Aug-17-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
45. Group Health works very well and I believe it is the oldest |
Joanne98
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message |
34. Howard Dean just explained that on Dr "the right-winger" Nancy! |
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The co-ops can't compete with the big insurance companies beause the biggies will drive them out of businees with all the money they extorted from sick people!
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sandyd921
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message |
35. We've already tried co-ops in the US. |
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They were called Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Most have sold out to for-profits and even those that have remained non-profit co-ops are not much better than for-profit insurance as far as cost to policyholders, dumping people, and overhead. They also will never be large enough to sufficiently spread the risk to make them affordable for average people.
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DailyGrind51
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message |
36. The "risk pool" isn't large enough to produce real cost savings. |
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And, as Ed Schultz reminded his listeners, that's how BC/BS got started!
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Eric J in MN
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:37 AM
Response to Original message |
37. Co-ops would have no salary limits. |
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A public option would have a salary limit; federal employees can't be paid more than the president.
At a co-op, the premiums could go to pay the CEO millions-of-dollars/year.
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loyalkydem
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message |
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It's about what the people want. The majority want a public option instead? the Joe the Plummer crowd are getting what they want. Dick Armey is now attacking Medicare and social security. What are we going to do when Armey and his people take that away from us?
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kenny blankenship
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message |
40. So why do insurance industry shitlickers want co-ops??? |
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Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 11:55 AM by kenny blankenship
At some point you have to ask yourself why you keep listening to the people who've fucked you over in the past. You say you need X. they say we will do Y, you agree to that but then Y isn't good enough for them. They now want Z...and you listen to them... WTF? Are you just the Eternal Sucker?
Get it through your head: nothing they want is in YOUR interest. They've fucked you over in the past, and all their present negotiating strategy boils down to is a ploy to CONTINUE fucking you over.
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southernyankeebelle
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Mon Aug-17-09 11:54 AM
Response to Original message |
42. I was listening to a show this morning and he said that some of these |
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co ops have gone under. Leaving doctors and hospitals holding the bag.
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Jakes Progress
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Mon Aug-17-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message |
43. They are a way of stalling. |
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They also avoid doing anything. By the time each regional co-op gets its rules and meets with its board and works out how to pay the board and ...... it will be several years before we see that they don't work at all. It will behoove a regional coop to do poorly so that they don't attract more poor people to the area. If New Jersey does a better job than New York, the poor and ill will move to New Jersey and their costs and headaches will go up.
It is also easier for pharma and medco and insurance to buy off the local people or even get their guys on those boards.
Coops are a compromise of a compromise of a compromise of single payer. We should have at least been able to get something a few compromises back.
Basically, progressives and decent Democrats have lost this issue. We got beat. Hard.
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