Inside a Critical Mass Ride

[wtmusic]

"Critical Mass rides are one way cyclists have generated interest in bicycle transportation, many motorists and residents don't seem to agree."

(video)

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-315522

These people are not doing the cycling community any favors.

"First, let me say that I am an avid cyclist and a supporter of cyclist's rights. I support bike lanes, paths, and any methods to make cycling safer. That being said, I DO NOT support critical mass rides. While the supposed message of Critical Mass is to proclaim "Bikes are traffic too", it unfortunately just becomes a bunch of people on bikes who care nothing about the law, taking advantage of the pack mentality to selfishly celebrate their ability to disrupt. These packs are made up of people that claim protection under the law when it serves their bike rights, yet poo-poo the same the law when it would prevent them from riding where they want, when they want. This selfish behavior has a net of effect of creating only more antagonism between drivers and cyclists. It's counter productive and gives us responsible cylcists a bad name. Grow up, obey the law. If you want changes, become active in your local cyclig coalition and work with your community to change laws and get funding for bike transit. There are bad people on both sides. Drivers - please don't think all people on bikes are like this. Please give us the benefit of the doubt and treat us with respect and courtesy on the road. A car can easily kill someone on a bike. Cyclists - Don't use some drivers' bad behavior as an excuse to break the law on your bike."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Comments are intersting

Like others there, I believe that if cyclists want to be equally treated they need to do one thing...stop at stop signs. Yes I know they lose all their momentum, but that is the price of riding on the road with the rest of us. Motorcycles are about as invisible to cyclist as they are to drivers. I have had numerous near misses when a cyclist decided that they were too good for red lights. I may only be on a motorcycle, but I can hurt them just about as bad as a car. I also have armor (ATGATT) while they are in partial coverage spandex.

[anigbrowl]

2. +1 from this biker

Cyclists who don't seem to care about other vehicles or pedestrians just seem like assholes who can't afford cars. I find it particularly irritating when they ride on the sidewalk with apparent disregard for everyone else (eg in the downtown area or something). fortunately this kind of behavior seems to be on the wane, at least where I live.

[wtmusic]

3. A big debate within the biking community

is whether to allow cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs. It's already law in Idaho, and I believe it would work in the rest of the country too.

Important to note that it still requires the cyclist to yield. If they strike a pedestrian they are liable.

I ride about 100mi/week and I would love nothing more than to see more tickets handed out to cyclists. Dangerous and just plain boorish behavior has no place on the road.

[MindPilot]

5. So what would be the logic behind that?

Allowing a cyclist to treat a stop sign as a yield and not a motorcycle. Or even a car for that matter. Kind of forces the question why is there a stop sign there in the first place?

I'm coming from the position that at most stop signs--especially the ones where cops like to write tickets for a "rolling stop"--the important part of the maneuver is not so much stopping per se as it is looking.

[wtmusic]

6. It's actually very logical

and it comes down to the fact that a cyclist is far more likely to get themselves killed by rolling a stop than by hurting the driver of another vehicle. For the added convenience they incur the risk (for the most part).

Also one could make the points that cyclists should be rewarded for keeping the air cleaner, and as a society we should encourage it for health reasons.

[MindPilot]

10. hmmm, I'll try that defending my next ticket.

But your honor, I should be rewarded for driving a hybrid by not having to obey traffic rules.

Surely the judge will see the logic in that even when I can't.

[wtmusic]

12. You wouldn't have a ticket if it was legal. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Self Delete - Double Post

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. There should be no debate,,,play by the rules or get off the road

If they allow such dangerous behavior cyclists need to:
- Assume all liability if they roll a stop
- Give up all rights to sue other parties if they are injured rolling a stop
- Carry adequate insurance for themselves and whomever they hit. A bicycle can take out a motorcycle

I am serious about the above. I carry motorcycle and car insurance so I am allowed to use the public roads. If cyclists want to use the road and be that kind of hazard, they need to play by the same rules.

[wtmusic]

11. Do drivers give up all rights to sue other parties at a yield sign?

News to me.

[taterguy]

16. Insurance for cyclists isn't practical

Yes, cyclists can damage something, but it's very very rare.

On those rare occasions they can be taken to small-claims court to reimburse the victim.

There might be a half dozen instances a year in the entire country where that wouldn't work.

So to "solve" a problem that doesn't exist, you recommend requiring millions of people to obtain insurance that they probably won't ever use.

I disagree.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Cyclist can kill motorcyclists or pedestrians. Small claims court would not begin to be enough

Then again, that would be a good argument for no fault insurance and single payer.

[taterguy]

18. How often does that happen?

Maybe I don't read the news often enough but you're welcome to post some links.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. The link in the OP had just such a story on the 2nd comment page

Its not that hard to knock a motorcycle down. A bicycle t-boning a MC or the MC t-boning the bicycle will do it easily. Evasive action to avoid a bicycle could also do it.

I haven't hit a bicycle yet, despite their best efforts to get me. I have dual horn of death on my motorcycles, and I use them on cagers and cyclists as needed with a high degree of effectiveness. IME on a motorcycle cyclists are as bad as cagers with a high sense of entitlement.

[taterguy]

28. Ah, the oh so persuasive comment on a message board

That's plenty of proof for me!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. That was the first one that came to mind...

I have several friends that it has happened to, one in Honolulu, one in California. I've lost track of how many close calls I have seen or had. In the accidents I know of, both motorcycles went down. In one the cyclist filed a suit despite being in the wrong. They lost but it took time and was expensive. In neither case did the riders get made well for their damages and injuries by the cyclists. That is one of the reason I am so hard over on the liability stuff.

My dual 110db horns always worked until MP3 players got common. Now you have to overpower their tunes too.

[taterguy]

31. You've had over an hour to respond with something credible

Is Google blocked where you're posting from?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. All google comes up with is ads for lawyers. You doing eny better with it?

I've been riding (street and dirt) for 50+ years. I also rode street bicyckles serious for a number of years. I've seen what I have seen. Its not the most common accident, but if you ride, you understand that motorcycles are invisible to everyone else any my concern is well based. Frequency is the hard part. Avoided accidents are not reported.

[taterguy]

34. I'm not the one who made an assertion

You said that bicycles can kill people.

It's up to you to back that up with something other than "well I heard it from someone that's a reliable source."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Your are seriously arguing that causing a motorcyclist to lose control could not have

deadly results? Have you ever ridden anything with two wheels on the street?

[taterguy]

39. Someone on foot could do the same thing

Here's a research assignment:

Take the total amount of property and personal damage caused by cyclists in a year.

Divide that by the number of people who ride bikes in this country.

Find an insurance underwriter willing to write a policy for that premium.

Good luck.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. So you are making a frequency based argument, that is a step forward

But until we get no fault vehicle insurance and single payer, I will continue to consider cyclists as hazardous as cars when I am riding. Its good survival training for motorcyclist. Stats and frequency do not matter when you are the one involved in the incident.

[taterguy]

42. Now explain exactly how your little insurance program will work

How will the rates be determined?

How will it be enforced?

Is it really a good idea to discourage a green mode of transportation?

Seriously, I'd like answers to these questions.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. Try Post #37 for one version, though I have some quibbles with it.

For examle I would be good with a single rear small plate like motorcycles.

The underlying concept is pretty simple. Ride on the road with the ability to injure others and you need to have insurance or otherwise be able to cover costs of injury you may do to others. No fault and single payer would relieve much of that but we have neither in most states.

There are three bicyclist induced incidents with injuries I witnessed/was part of/knew someone involved in it well. In all of those cases the cyclist caused grievous injuries and had no insurance. In all three the cyclist was clearly at fault. In one of them the cyclist's family sued the victim. Box Score: 2 motorcyclists and one pedestrian injured. 2 cyclist injured, 1 killed.

As for your questions:
Rates: Ask an underwriter. General liability policy would cover it. You should have one if you own real property.
Enforcement: Police and parking enforcement. An unlicensed vehicle is an unlicensed vehicle, regards of power source. MD and other states require insurance before a plate is issued and requires it be maintained.
Green: Not sure how encouraging responsible behavior is going to discourage riding. We are not dropping insurance requirements on electric cars just because its a green mode of transportation.

I am not against cycling, but cyclists need to take responsibility and cover their liability

[taterguy]

44. If I asked an underwriter about rate information he would laugh at me

Here's how insurance rates work: You take the amount of likely claims in a year, divide it by the number of insured and then add some profit for the underwriter. In the case of cyclists, that figure would be a penny at the most. There are millions of cyclists in this country. We've been having this argument a couple days now and you haven't found any independent information about damage caused by cyclists.

Here's what I found about automobile damage after less than two minutes of "research." It's from an NHTSA fact sheet.

"In 2007, 41,059 people were killed in the estimated 6,024,000 police-reported motor vehicle traffic crashes, 2,491,000 people were injured, and 4,275,000 crashes involved property damage only."

6 million reported car crashes. Even if they were all fender-benders you're talking about a hefty chunk of change.

Find something comparable for damage caused by cyclists and you might have a point. Until then I'll think of you as just someone who has no clue about what they're talking about.

PS: I could spend several hours pointing out how stupid and impractical that Bicycle Safety article is but I've got better things to do.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. Cyclists need to step up and be responsible for their actions and today they are not

There are multiple ways to do it. As more people ride, the fantasy that they can not and do not injure others will fade as the accident rates will go up.

I had to warn a cyclist off today as he treated a stop sign as a yield. He probably did not see 700 lbs of motorcycle with its lights on coming towards him. Its a common enough occurrence. He probably had to change his shorts after he got where he was going. At least he did not take me out.

[taterguy]

46. What's stopping you from posting statistics about damage caused by cyclists?

For someone whose nic is Professor you're not very good at research.

:shrug:

[Ron Green]

19. "The rules" are different in different places.

In Idaho, for example, yielding at a stop sign is the rule, and could be made so in other states. There are numerous reasons for allowing cyclists to roll through stop signs, since they don't have the motorized horsepower to make a safe and speedy departure from a full stop. Riding a bicycle is much more different from riding a motorcycle than a motorcycle is from a car, and there are good reasons why, although they often share the same roads, the rules shouldn't always be exactly the same.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. As long as they accept the liability and the risk, they can take their chances

As I said in a prior post I wear armor, even in the heat of the summer, and they are partially covered in spandex. If one takes me down, they will pay for the damages to the bike and any injuries(actually reimburse my insurance).

In all fairness, I feel the same way about cagers, so this is not just about cyclists with me. None of them see motorcycles and they are all out to kill MC riders. The latter is clearly hyperbole to be sure, but it keeps you alive on the street if you think that way.

[CreekDog]

24. cyclists are going slow enough and with enough control that they shouldn't be held to car standards

i don't see the logic in that.

however, Critical Mass is something altogether different and that parade which is not legal should be required to stop at lights and stop signs because while it is passing you simply cannot cross the street. in fact one heavy critical mass night i was trying to cross the street to get to BART and waiting and waiting for them to pass but i couldn't see where it ended so i went on the green light and those cyclists glared at me like I was Hitler and several of them nearly hit me.

[-..__...]

37. Much better solution...

Toward A New Bicycle Safety in America

691,329 Americans biked to work in 2006, representing 0.5% of total commuters. Tragically, 770 bicyclists died on U.S. roads that same year.

As the number of bicycles increases due to high gas prices, we as a nation should examine new ways to ensure that these vehicles (usually operated at 10-30 mph) are driven in a safe and responsible manner, and that collisions with motor vehicles, pedestrians, and other objects are minimized.

The goal is not to pass blame for the 770 bicycle deaths, but rather to save lives.

Since the invention of the automobile, federal, state, and local authorities have enacted a series of laws governing the licensing, registration, inspection, insurance, and safe operation of motor vehicles. A similar set of laws should be applied to bicycles and bicyclists.

In addition, bicyclists should pay their fair share of tolls and parking fees, as long as these fees are applicable to other motor vehicles.

Below is a collection of common sense bicycle rules and regulations we believe would save lives both in the near term and long run.

Licensing

* A bicyclist must not be allowed to ride on a road until he is 16 years old, or whatever the local age is for obtaining a driver’s license. “Road” is defined as a busy commercial road, not a suburban residential or neighborhood road.

* A bicyclist must obtain a bicycle license from the DMV, or some other equivalent authority, before he can ride on the road.

* In order to obtain a license, a bicyclist must show proof that he’s completed mandatory bicycle education classes (Bike Ed), must pass a written exam, must successfully complete a road test, and must pay all applicable licensing fees.

* A bicyclist must carry his bicycle license with him whenever he rides on the road. If pulled over by a police officer, a bicyclist must show his license to the officer.

Registration

* A bicyclist must register his bicycle at the DMV, or some other equivalent authority, before he can ride the bicycle on the road.

* In order to register his bicycle, a bicyclist must show his bicycle license and proof of insurance, and pay all applicable registration fees.

* A bicyclist must carry his registration documentation with him whenever he rides on the road. If pulled over by a police officer, a bicyclist must show his documentation to the officer.

* A bicyclist must attach license plates to the front and rear of his bicycle. These license plates should be the same size as motorcycle license plates, and should never be obstructed by any other object.

Complete article

Now... compliance with each and every point might not be necessary, feasible, or a viable utilization of economic and/or police resources but, if cyclists want to play... they should at least pay.

At the bare minimum... they should obey and be held accountable to the same rules of the road as any motorist.

[taterguy]

41. I would be happy to pay to use roads on a bicycle

In return, I'd like a refund of the portion of my income, sales and property taxes that are used to subsidize automobile usage.

Do you think that would be fair?

Why or why not?

ps: There's a whole lot of stupid, impractical recommendations in that article. Has the author ever worn a reflective vest on a hot sunny day? Ponderous, fucking ponderous.

[CreekDog]

22. I think that's fine for individual cyclists, but if they are in a parade (which Critical Mass is)

they need to stop at lights and signs because pedestrians can't get across the street when they are in Critical Mass formation.

[wtmusic]

23. CM events should be required to obtain a permit

like all parades, so people can plan for it.

AKA "being considerate".

[CreekDog]

25. well CM won't be considerate

by design, it's quite the opposite.

[wtmusic]

26. I guess some feel being relatively helpless on a bicycle

entitles them to a power trip en masse once in a while. Feh.

[zonkers]

4. There definitely can be a mob mentality among the CM riders. Seen it. I have even seen just

three riders hogging a street, pedaling abreast instead of single file. For the most part, cyclists are pretty terrific people.

[wtmusic]

7. I would venture that most tickets for cyclists are handed out at stop signs

where the incidence of personal injury is rare. They need to start socking those people with moving violations.

[zonkers]

13. Agree. I also must note there are cydists and bicycle riders, the latter which seem to be

pedal much slower and don't have as much gear and maybe have baskets -- these folks are dangerous because they pedal on the sidewalk, cross in crosswalks and utterly mess stuff up!!!

[wtmusic]

14. Sometime soon riding a bike on the street will require a bicycle license

and the sooner, the better. IMO.

[taterguy]

15. Kick so I'll be able to find this when I have time to watch it

[Greyhound]

27. I just love Canadians.

Can you imagine the outrage and vitriol that Americans would be spewing if they were help up for twenty minutes by a bunch of "damn hippies" on bikes?

[taterguy]

29. I'll be impressed when Critical Mass starts organizing Freedom Rides

Send a few courageous volunteers to Alabama to enlighten the citizenry down there.

What good is a protest if you're only parading in front of passive bystanders that essentially agree with you?

[TheMightyFavog]

35. Ahem...

http://criticalmass.wikia.com/wiki/Birmingham,AL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IESC14Tl-8

http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-392463.html

http://bellovelo.blogspot.com/2009/02/critical-mass-montgomery-alabama.html

[taterguy]

36. D'oh. I stand corrected.

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[cliffordu]

47. I live on my bicycle - FUCK CRITICAL MASS.

I don't care about the kinds of street actvisim that creates lifelong hatred among the cagers (drivers) like these little shits do. They need to STFU.

World naked bike ride is something else altogether, however, and I will gladly stop traffic for them anytime.