I just realized that I am wrong...

[armyowalgreens]

Utilitarianism is not the answer. I've justified it in here before because I thought it was the best way to live ones life.

However, I am currently sitting in my ethics lecture and it dawned on me that the entire concept of utilitarianism is faulty. Certain elements of the ideology are still true. But the idea that we can justify an act by simply stating that it produces more pleasure than pain misses the point.

If torturing a human brings mild amusement to 10,000 people, it is still not justified. Because it does not matter that the total pleasure of the observers outweighed the massive suffering of the victim. Who cares about the total amount of pleasure? Each person is only experiencing mild amusement at the cost of massive amounts of pain and anguish towards another. It just doesn't add up.


Talk about epiphanies.

[rug]

1. I can't wait until you study existentialism.

[subcomhd]

5. I can't wait 'till his prof gets to Nietzsche

and he becomes a superman. That candle's going to burn AOW!

[armyowalgreens]

7. Nietzsche makes my insides hurt...

I find it damn near impossible to read his works. I've struggled a little ways into The Gay Science. I will eventually go back and finish it.

[subcomhd]

11. It is difficult reading for sure

and I give you a hard time but it is always meant as a good natured ribbing, mainly because I feel like I'm dealing with myself from about twenty years ago. Personally I find N's works to be a big dung heap with a few diamonds in it. But hell man, if you can actually read Marx, you can get through the N man. Are you a philosophy major? Political science? Either way, keep reading and keep thinking.

[armyowalgreens]

14. I am double majoring in philosophy and poli sci.

I have read a good amount of Marx. But he is not very popular around here so it's hard to discuss his philosophy with anyone else.

[subcomhd]

16. When I say Marx is hard to read

it is mostly his writing style, which was popular in many quarters in those day - Henry James comes to mind it the literary world. i think most of the best Marxian contributions were from later Marxists.

Have you read gramsci?

[armyowalgreens]

18. I have not read Gramsci. Sounds like an interesting fellow.

I'll have to put him down on my list.

[subcomhd]

19. Do that, I know you'll like him.

[Political Heretic]

24. I agree with that!

Habermas, C. Wright Mills..... One Dimensional Man wooo hoo :D

[subcomhd]

26. Two good examples!!! eom

[omega minimo]

29. Read Alice Miller

[subcomhd]

31. Didn't Miller's repressed memory theory

or at least some overzealous believers in it lead to some serious miscarriages of justice. I don't know enough about her to comment but I do remember some repressed "memory" horror stories from the eighties. I'm not trying to pick another fight with you OM. In fact last time we crossed paths I found out you have good taste in music. Enlighten me.

[armyowalgreens]

6. .

[Political Heretic]

23. Enjoy that, but don't stop until post-modernsts such as Foucault.

Existentialism is awesome when you're young... but its historically dated, and exists largely as a polemic against the enlightenment. Post-modernists like Foucault (arguably classified as such) and Derrida, now that is some truly fun stuff. In my journey, it was what my own existentialist leanings naturally led to.

Pretty hard to jump from existentialism into Analytic Philosophy. :) If you find that you love existentialism, and it makes sense to you, you'll probably dig the Continental philosophers of the 20th century.


If you're hardcore, then in order to get the most out of those guys, you should read Marx and Hegel - Marx to understand some of the influences on some of Foucault and Derrida, Hegel to understand Marx.

[Odin2005]

33. Derrida? FUN? His stuff is all word salad.

Continental philosophy went straight to Hell when the PoMos showed up. anti-rationalist nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

[Chemisse]

2. I like your posts armyo

They are usually thought provoking.

[cali]

3. I'm not surprised. You're a bright kid.

[hfojvt]

4. Dammit Jim, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

or the one.

[greyl]

8. There is no One Right Way To Live.

Give up the hunt. ;)

[subcomhd]

13. I think the Stoics came pretty close.

[greyl]

27. Please don't forget the other thousands of human cultures.

The ones who think theirs is the One Right Way To Live, always do more wrong.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. Good God! I'm glad I missed your defense of that swill...

await your discovery of deontologicalism.

[armyowalgreens]

10. Well, I never did defend the torture scenario in here...

But I have ran it through my mind several times.

[Cleita]

12. I never had a course in ethics but there are some things

that seem to be common sense to a person who has any empathy in their make up. Hurting people or other living things can never be right nor enjoyable no matter what you think they did to you.

[armyowalgreens]

15. In philosophy and ethics, there is no such thing as "common sense"...

We must question everything. Even the seemingly obvious.

[Political Heretic]

22. Actually, G.E. Moore, Defense of Common Sense. So it depends on what Philosopher your ask.

"here is a hand.... and here is another." - Moore. :D

[Cleita]

25. It's just a phrase that means deductive logic should lead you to a truth.

It's also called horse sense and many other colloquialisms. I know I'm kind of opening a mine field here for the logic purists, but I hope you take in in the spirit of the meaning and not the letter of the meaning.

[Salviati]

17. So wait, you're saying that reality shows are unethical?

:evilgrin:
My philosophy is that there is no "the answer". The world is a complicated place, any framework we try to impose on it will inevitibly fail in certain situations. This does not mean that the frameworks are useless, as they provide a structure to our thinking and often glean out the important details. However, it is important to realize that all frameworks are to some degree faulty, and to watch out for those cases, and to watch out for the people who will go "philosophy shopping" to find the one that will justify whatever it is they want to do.

[Political Heretic]

20. The problem with utilitarianism is this: define "pleasure" and "pain."

What sounds like a clear cut ideology is anything but.

Utilitarianism is really about the maximization of happiness for the largest number of people. Now, if there is ever any more ambiguous word than "happiness" you'll have to let me know.

That's the problem.

[Political Heretic]

21. PS - my BA in philsophy is eagerly enjoying your journey... however...

...my Masters in social work is eager for you to convert philosophical ideals into practical principles and direct action. ;)

[fNord]

28. This is why I tend to lean toward socio anarchism....

Hurt as little as possible & help as much as possible without destroying yourself. and, since its all a dumb joke anyway, try to remember to smile.

[omega minimo]

30. You realized you can't compare apples and oranges..... The answer, the real answer, is

Karma.

[Odin2005]

32. Utilitarianism is disgusting and can be used to support atrocious acts and totalitarianism.

I consider myself a Kantian. People should NEVER be used as mere tools for some supposedly "greater" end, every individual is an end unto him/herself. Torturing someone for the amusement of many treats the victim of torture as a mere means to make other happy, and is thus wrong.