"Saved by the love of a good woman"...do you think it really happens?

[Berry Cool]

This is something that's been nagging at my mind the past few days...especially after today's coverage of Ted Kennedy's funeral. It's not so much about him as it is about people in general.

It seemed to me that I heard over and over again praise for Ted's wife Vicki. Nothing wrong with that, obviously. But what I heard over and over again was that part of her wonderfulness was that "She SAVED him." In other words, at the point of his life when they got together, he was going off the rails, and she singlehandedly transformed his life and got him back on track and made him what he was from that point onward.

The more I heard this meme--repeated over and over, primarily by men--the more it began to bother me.

It seems that we as a culture are very fond of and very attached to the idea of the Man Saved By the Love of a Good Woman. We adore the story of the guy who is falling apart, headed for a disastrous end, until finally he meets the smart, loving, capable, got-it-together female who picks him up, dusts him off, straightens him out and makes him fly right. And, after he does, the man spends the rest of his life in deep gratitude to the woman who "rescued him from himself."

Our books are full of it. Our movies are full of it. And I didn't hear a male announcer on TV say it today without a sweet wistful tone of admiration in his voice. As if each one of them either fancied himself that same kind of man, saved by his own woman--or longing to be, anyway.

Yet, in reality, my understanding (I admit I haven't been there myself) is that the Myth of the Man Saved by the Love of a Good Woman has done untold damage to women over the years...smart, loving, capable women who thought that if they just loved a desperate and foundering man enough, they'd be able to "save" him...only to find that he was going to go down the tubes anyway...and then blamed themselves for not being loving enough, or smart enough, or capable enough, or no-nonsense enough to succeed at being one of those heroines of which we sing the praises over and over when we say: "You know, she SAVED him."

I thought I'd ask those on DU with more experience of this.

Are you a man who was Saved by the Love of a Good Woman? Do you think it was all her doing, or did you contribute to your own salvation? Are you a man who a Good Woman once tried to save, but it didn't work?

Are you a Good Woman who ever saved a man with your love? Or did you try and fail? Do you think you failed because you weren't good enough, or because he didn't want badly enough to be saved?

Do you think a "Good Woman" is ever really enough to save a man? And should it be a woman's job to "save" a man, anyway? Doesn't all this just sort of play into the old idea (Reaganesque, I might say) that men are boorish uncivilized creatures, and it's a woman's job to tame them and clean them up and make them decent people, but a man can stumble along for years making a mess of things by himself until he meets the one "right" woman who can fix him up?

Mind you--this isn't to knock Vicki Kennedy or any other woman who ever had a positive influence on a man's life. I guess I'm just trying to see beyond the romantic haze of the "She SAVED him" fairytale.

[asdjrocky]

1. Three have tried to save me.

I mean, they tried to save the hell out of me man. My money's on number four.

[EFerrari]

2. LOL

:spank:

[asdjrocky]

6. Who's getting spanked here?

See that's the problem, I'm not good at the whole spankee part.

[AuntPatsy]

77. lol

[MercutioATC]

16. If they're now ex-wives...

...it sounds like you put your money on the first three...

[asdjrocky]

101. House...boat...car...

but I still have my health.

[MercutioATC]

102. Been there. Luckily, it was just one for me.

...but they can be pricey :)


When you get right down to it, though, money comes and money goes. As long as one has their health, they have the most important element of happiness.

[asdjrocky]

108. Absolutely.

And statisticly women fare far worse in divorce than men, I've just managed to be the exception to the rule in live most of the time.

[MercutioATC]

117. Mine did pretty well.

...but if I was to be completely honest, I'd agree that the royal screwing I got only impacted me for a few years.

I recovered.

[seabeyond]

3. i am a "not my job" kinda gal. nt

[Nay]

60. You and me both, sea. If he ain't got his shit together, I hit the road.

[seabeyond]

76. and one would hope that in a marriage we are the better of who we are.

does it mean the other... "good" did it for us. or does it mean that we enhance the good of who we are, which is why the marriage works and why we feel better in a marriage.

[sammytko]

71. same here - they can save themselves and

just how old was Teddy when Vickie "saved" him. Maybe he just figured it was time to straighten and she just happened to come along?

[seabeyond]

73. how i figure it. or.... he continued and it didnt bother her. who the fuck knows

i have me to do. and only i can do me. and i do me the best.... not some other person. i figure it goes the same way with another person. only they can do themselves and are much better at it than i can ever be.

doing me is a full time job, lol

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. Every time I heard that line,

I cringed, feeling for Joan Kennedy, feeling for their three children.

It's an idiotic throwaway line. As if one person can someone "save" another. We find each other at the times when we're receptive to each other, and that's all it is. Maybe we clean it up because we want to be better for this new person, but is that someone "saving" someone else?

It's a nice line, easy off the tongue, and it's a real tribute to Vicki Kennedy, but there was another wife, and that line makes it sound like the love of a bad woman almost did in Teddy Kennedy, which is mean-spirited, although I'm sure it's not meant to be.

I'm with you, Berry. Just more mindless babbling from TV commentators who need to fill the airwaves, which is kind of unfortunate. I appreciate, now more than ever, the silence of C-Span for these events..............................

[Berry Cool]

9. Well, if it is mindless babbling, it's not just TV commentators, it's articles in Time magazine

and in newspapers and everywhere else. Try Googling "vicki saved ted"--see how many hits you get. It's a lot.

In fact, try Googling "man saved by love of good woman." You'll be amazed.

We aren't nearly as culturally attached to the idea of good men saving women. I ask why. And inevitably, I come back to that idea that we expect women to do the heavy lifting in relationships. We expect them to be the "together" ones, the ones who drive the bus and make the thing run, rather than being one-half of a fully functional relationship into which both people make deep investment.

The good part of this is that when a relationship succeeds, the woman tends to get all the credit (even from the man). The bad part is that when it fails, she tends to get all the blame. Or at least the man doesn't--we just regard him as not having yet met the "right" woman who can fix him up the way he needs fixing.

Edited to add: Of course, I speak here of heterosexual relationships--homosexual ones obviously don't start out with the same form of sexual stereotyping imbalance. Although I'd be curious to learn whether they find themselves subject to the same memes in different contexts that can't be explained simply by "who's the man" and "who's the woman."

[Orangepeel]

83. The whole Prince Charming fantasy is a good man saving a woman

I'd say we are even more culturally attached to that idea, although both Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast are popular fairy tales. I think that being rescued by love in a way that relieves one of responsibility is appealing to many.

[merh]

15. And I watched Ted Jr.'s face when the President spoke of it as he

addressed Vicki during the eulogy. He didn't cringe, he didn't appear upset. It looked to me as if he was nodding and smiling in agreement.

What I find odd is how many blame Ted for the breakup of the marriage, for Joan's alcohol problems. That to me seems rather presumptuous and rather sexist, as if it is always the man's fault when things go south in a marriage.

I can honestly say I don't know what happened that caused the first marriage to break up. It appears to me from what I saw during the service, from Ted Jr's eulogy, Senator Kennedy's children for Vicki and appreciated the love she had for their father.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. It takes two to break up a marriage -

yes, there are exceptions, but, as a rule, marriages end because of both parties. I think it's kind of hard to go home to an alcoholic.

But Joan's life since they split has been one misadventure after another, to the point where her older son had to take control of her finances, and she also had to have a guardian appointed. Clearly, she's got emotional problems, a mental illness, all of it probably exacerbated by her drinking. As recently as 2007, she was institutionalized yet again for another alcoholism-related incident.

Poor lady. She looks awful - too much bad plastic surgery. Teddy was very generous with her in the divorce, so she's got plenty of assets, and her kids are great, so she's fortunate that way. But, she seems like a very sad human being.

I thought it was great that she was included in all the rituals...................................

[YellowdogIam]

39. But from Joan's side of it

She had a lot to contend with back in those days..I don't think she was emotionally strong enough to take on all the Kennedy clan and the bad publicity. She started to loose it after Chappaquiddick and what woman could blame her?.In photos of that era she always had that sad lonely expression.. so I don't judge anyone unless I've walked in their shoes

[Tangerine LaBamba]

42. I just read that she didn't want to go through

with the wedding, but old Joe Kennedy told her she had to, and, good Catholic girl that she was, she went along.

So, from the beginning, she had misgivings.

I think she's had a hell of a rough ride, but, they did turn out some really good kids.........................

[truedelphi]

99. I remember the photos of that era.

She looked radiantly happy whenever she was photographed with Jackie Kennedy.

And rather less than happy whenever she was photographed with Teddy.

Clearly that particular marriage did not work out, and where Teddy ended up getting saved, for her, the damage was already done.

[merh]

40. Sometimes it takes two to break up a marriage

and sometimes it can take just the one. It just depends on the people involved.

[Darth_Kitten]

65. Awh, isn't she the sad, pathetic ex who just can't quite get her life together?

:sarcasm:

[Darth_Kitten]

64. Funny, isn't it always the woman blamed?

I mean, she wasn't nice enough, or she didn't do this, or she didn't do that, or she weighed too much, etc, etc, etc.

[merh]

81. Funny, I read comments in this thread as blaming him.

I said I don't know what happened and I don't know. I don't think, after all these years, blame is appropriate or anything any of us should try to assign. We don't know.

[FreakinDJ]

5. It happens - but not to the degree "Fixer-uppers" would like

I know my wife has brought out the best in me no matter how much I would like to slip back into my old ways - but then again she is worth it

[TahitiNut]

7. Sounds like a recipe for emotional codependency to me.

Just like "she completes me" ... it seems to me that the best relationships are between complete human beings, each aspiring to grow and improve and each seeing in the other the achievement of the other's highest aspiration.

But what do I know? :shrug: :dunce:

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. I was damned by a few bad women

So I guess the opposite might be true? :shrug:

[csziggy]

10. How about a woman who was saved by the love of a good man?

My little sister was a wild teenager - to the point my older sisters were making bets on how soon she'd get pregnant. (Mom got her birth control pills, not easy in a Southern town in the early 70s.) One summer when I was home from college, Mom asked if I was drinking their Southern Comfort - no, it was my 12 year old sister guzzling it down.

Lil Sis continued her wild ways even as she was an over achiever. She skipped her senior year in high school and finished her AA degree in a year, getting it at the same time she got her high school diploma - at 16. She graduated college before she was a legal adult, still drinking and partying.

Until she met her love. They may have partied some, but they soon straightened up and had a wonderful life together for 28 years with four kids. The older kids turned out great. Then he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer too late to operate. His last 14 months were hell on him and on the family, and the youngest started acting out.

I thought Lil Sis pulled through OK, even when he died on her 51st birthday and she had the memorial on their 29th wedding anniversary. But she was not OK. Within a few months, she was back partying, drinking, traveling with a new man who was not the good man she had lost. It is a mutually abusive relationship and no one has been able to get through to her to get out.

Her three oldest children have written her off, as have her former in-laws who loved her dearly. Her youngest child is turning out the same as she was as a teenager, without a strong mother to guide her. The relationships among her children are suffering because there is no one to tie them together, even though their grandparents and aunts have tried to help.

For all those years I thought my little sister had matured and learned how to live a responsible life. Well she did as long as she had that good man in her life. Now she seems to be lost and we cannot get her back.



So yes, I do believe a good partner can make a huge difference in a person's life, especially if they do not have that internal rudder to help them steer their own course.

[Berry Cool]

13. What a sad story.

See, I'd say that society in general is harder on women like your sister than it is on similarly behaving men. First, she's a wayward teen, then she's a slut, then she's a drunken slut, then she's a bad mom. When men behave the same way, I think we tend to regard it as regrettable, but somehow more what we expect of a man. He's a hard-drinking womanizer and a bad father? Oh well...if the right woman comes along, she will fix him.

[csziggy]

29. Yeah, I don't know what to do for her

Watching the Teddy Kennedy stuff has kept my mind off the latest catastrophe involving my sister and her kids.

She was lucky in a way - most of her earlier hard partying was during the 70s when everybody was partying. So she pretty much missed the slut label. She had the sense then to at least act normally when she visited our parents.

She was a great Mom for years - home schooled her kids, shepherded them through all sorts of activities, was there when they needed her. They understood when their Dad got sick that she had to concentrate on him, though the youngest lost out because of her preoccupation. Now she just doesn't care.


You are right, society is much less harsh on men.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. Always -

the men always get the benefit of the doubt.

That's a sad and awful story about your sister. To have a good and happy life all those years, you'd think the new behavior patterns would somehow have become permanent, but she needed him. Who knows what another person needs to feel whole?

ziggy, I am so sorry. I hope she finds her way home, and that her youngest will be safe, too................................

[csziggy]

46. Thank you

BTW, you know any good places to send a young woman with a Master's in international affairs from The George Washington University Elliott School of International Affairs, with a focus on development for a job? So far she's staying in DC but she needs a good position.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

47. Is she going to apply to

the Foreign Service?

Honestly, this area has always been considered "recession-proof," but I have old friends who have been with law firms for thirty years getting told they have four weeks to get their stuff together and leave. Unheard-of in the legal profession.

An old college friend of mine has, since graduation - 1970 - worked in developing African countries, and he's one of the best. He can no longer get any money. It's all dried up, and he's facing bankruptcy. They're so broke, his wife's elderly parents, who live in the UK, are ailing, and he can't afford the air fare for her to go and visit them. Won't take a loan from any of us, either.

Development, at this point, is at a standstill, from what I hear. But, she should take the Foreign Service exam. That's about the only thing I can think of right now.

I wish her luck.........................

[csziggy]

56. Thanks!

I'm not sure where she has applied. The last time I talked to her I recommended putting in an application with the White House, but I understand they had something like 6 applicants for each position. I'll email her and tell her to take the Foreign Service exam if she hasn't already.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

57. Realistically,

all the jobs at the White House are very, very, very politically connected. They don't hire people who aren't already "inside." Same is true for any job on Capitol Hill - either your family back home is politically involved, or your family has made big donations, or you're recommended by someone who's either of those two things. But, walk-ins don't get even a first look.

The Foreign Service exam is scheduled in advance, and you have to apply in order to be qualified to take it. They don't let just anyone take it, so if she wants to explore that possibility, warn her that she has to get on the stick right now, because I think they give the test in October, and after that, it could be another six months.

Also - and I have a lot of friends from law school who took the test, but it was a long time ago - it was really, really hard. I'm sure she'd do fine, but she's gonna have to want to be a Foreign Service Officer really badly. It's a fun career, though, if you're interested in living abroad and doing strange things. My old FSO friends have some wonderful stories, and they've been EVERYWHERE.

Staying in D.C., though, she has a lot of places to explore. I'm sure GW's placement office has all sorts of resources that she can utilize.

Boy, I'm glad I'm not starting out today! Seems so much harder than 'way back when, don't you think?

[csziggy]

105. She did work for the Obama campaign and has had articles published

So she has some creds.

Her grandparents have political connections, though these days they are all Republican which won't help unless she comes back to Florida. In the old days, they had close connections to Spessard Holland and his family as well as a slight connection to Lawton Chiles. But all those people are now gone.

This girl aces tests so if she has the interest and the knowledge, I'm sure she can pass just about anything. She's already been around the world on a Semester at Sea and visited countries on other trips and enjoyed all that, so Foreign Service might be perfect for her.

I graduated in 1977 just when the economy took a nosedive. I never did get a job using my college degree except peripherally, so I know how it is when you can't get a good start in a career.

[Berry Cool]

67. Just wanted to add, I hope she does make it too.

And I hope she finds love again--real love.

[csziggy]

109. Thank you

I hope someone can get through to her that her current relationship is destructive. Someday maybe.

[elleng]

11. It happens vice versa too.

People DO 'save' eachother, in many ways, like making The Way for the particular individual clear, and sticking with them thru it. I've seen it.

[merh]

12. Yes, it happens

My mentor was a man much like Ted Kennedy. He was larger than life, a well known lawyer, a former politician (yellow dog dem), and an actor and personality. He had 5 children with his first wife but the marriage fell apart and he became known as a womanizer, even after he married his second wife there was talk of affairs. After he divorced his second wife he was still considered a player who would eat out all the time, drink to excess and gamble and live in the fast lane. Then he met his 3rd wife (not a younger woman, a woman close to his age), she was everything he wanted and needed in life and he finally settled down. And yes, she "saved him" - he would tell you that and from what I saw, he was right. He didn't live in the fast lane, he began to take care of himself and he was happy being her husband and spending time with her. The drinking and chasing and living life large stopped. He was content with who he was and with his life with her.

[Berry Cool]

14. Ah, but was it just her work alone...or was he ready for her and she happened to come along

at just the right time?

[merh]

19. I think it was due to the love he had for her and she for him.

They were a perfect fit - they didn't "need" each other to be but they needed each other and understood each other.

I suppose you would have to witness a similar transformation to fully understand. All I can say is, I understand what they mean when they say "she saved him".

[Berry Cool]

68. OK, but with the kind of life he was living then, what made him love her?

What made him decide she was worth quitting the womanizing and self-destructive lifestyle?

[merh]

79. Who the hell knows.

If you are able to get the formula for the "perfect" love, you let me know.

If Kennedy told people that she saved him, then that is what happened. It isn't what you think, it is what the people involved in the relationship think. They are the only one's whose perspective matters.

That it bothers you is something you may want to look into. I've never been resentful of the love two people have for one another and how they describe or define it.

[RB TexLa]

17. No, you have to do it yourself. No man or woman can do it for you.

[imdjh]

18. "love of a good woman" is romantic. Supervision of someone who takes no shit is accurate.

I have known several gay men on the path to destruction who switched course seemingly upon switching lovers. Others, like myself, simply got rid of the self ( and me) destructive lover, and redirected our own lives.

But like I said, I can tell several stories of men who dumped the lover they went downhill with and rebuilt their lives with a new lover whose rules were clear and lain in stone: you will not behave that way anymore or I will be gone. The co-dependent lover doesn't have that rule, or he might have it floating about but only tried to install it in desperation, which is the source of many a drunken domestic disturbance.

Of course, there are plenty of drunks, druggies, and general fuck ups who leave their equally fucked up or weak spouse only to find another with whom life will repeat itself. Few people refer to this couple or the man or woman who didn't unfuckup your life.

[johnaries]

21. What's a "good woman"?

:shrug:

:evilgrin:

[Bucky]

88. Big butt, owns a liquor store.

any other questions?

[johnaries]

112. OK, that would save me! nt

[madmusic]

22. Good friends save friends all the time.

Positive feedback is essential. The opposite is the isolated and at the extreme, the feral. We love good books and movies because they help sort life out, like good friends and a good love.

[noamnety]

23. There are a lot of posts in this thread

responding to whether or not a person can be saved by another person.

There are less (no?) responses discussing the damage to women caused by being raised on the romantic notion of being the one to save the man through "unconditional" love, even if they are emotionally unavailable, an addict, abusive.

[seabeyond]

34. i kinda did with my "not my job" comment. i dont buy into the conditioning that it is my role

to fix the man.

guy has to be put together well enough for me to be interested in cause that is what i am married, not what i think i can "make" him be.

i dont want power and control over him, and equally he has none over me.

[grasswire]

24. Didn't Laura save George?

Isn't that the story with them?

He was a drunk. She told him to shape up or lose her. She saved him from his alcoholism.

Does this have something to do with mommy in those who romanticize the narrative? A mommy thing?

[seabeyond]

35. cept, he continues to drink. nt

[YellowdogIam]

41. Laura saved George?

I didn't know he'd been saved

[paulsby]

25. i have no doubt whatsoever it happens

women are (individually primarily) also civilizing influences on men.

[proteus_lives]

26. Yes it does. It happened to my dad.

My dad has had a self-destructive personality since his childhood. Violent behavior, drug and alcohol abuse, ADD and a whole host of problems. But basically it came down to his anger and fear. Bad feelings about his abusive childhood, being sent to Vietnam and the world basically shitting on him.

After he came back from Vietnam he was a real mess. Drug addict, criminal and a hair-trigger temper. The only person he cared about (and could stand him) was my mother. They had a long history going back to their childhoods. But for her own sake she kicked him out of her life. And that was the wake-up call he needed, it took him almost two years but he got clean, got and held a good job and went to get her back. He proved himself and they got married. They have had a LOT of ups and downs but they have been together for over 35 years now from that point. (They have known each other for 45 years.)

It's still a worry though. They are both getting on in years and I worry about him if my mom passes first. I know it sounds weird to say but it that happens, I don't think my dad will last a year without her.

[Lex]

27. Sounds like HE got himself together.

nt

[proteus_lives]

33. Oh he did, it was his efforts alone but she was the light he was running towards.

But he's told me that he wouldn't have done it without my mom. He said that until her he had no reason to want to get his shit together.

[Jennicut]

28. It takes two to be "saved"...one to want to help the other person and that person to want to change

[voc]

30. When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear.

Yes, it happens,in a way.
But usually the credit is given to the spouse for "saving" when what happens is the person
is ready to change and the spouse assists. No one can change anyone unwilling to do so.
It is however, romanticized.

[seabeyond]

36. this, i can agree with. teddy was ready to grow up, ... so he did. nt

[kath]

31. My husband's sister used to think she could change or "save" men.

Hubby says that once she got to a certain age, she used to go for the biggest loser in the room.

Well, she married one of those losers - an abusive sonofabitch.

She was murdered by him. In front of their two young children.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

45. Oh, no -

there's that "With me he'll be different" that I've seen over and over.

But that's horrible, just horrible.

Are the kids OK?

[kath]

48. It's been almost 21 years.

And it still hurts so much to remember that early morning phone call giving us the horrible news...

The kids both turned out reasonably well.

[Berry Cool]

69. I"m so sorry, kath.

This is what I mean. I think women are done great harm by being taught that we can "save" men if we're "good" enough.

And by "good" enough, I mean a lot of things:

1. Physically beautiful and emotionally sweet-tempered enough that we a) attract him in the first place, and b) make him fall deeply in love with us, to the point where he is afraid of losing us.

2. Completely emotionally together ourselves, and fully "in charge" of our own lives and responsibilities, so that we have no issues of our own needing to be dealt with, and can focus our energies completely on his needs and his issues.

3. Strong and no-nonsense enough that we can "whip him back into shape" without ever weakening ourselves because of our desire for him.

It's a very one-sided thing, it seems to me. In short, it's a job for Superwoman.

And frankly, I don't think I'm Superwoman. I like the idea of love being about two people, each of whom has it together in some spots and not some others, who help each other, mutually, put it all together.

But what I feel society telling me, over and over again, is that to find love, a woman either has to be a clinging vine (which may not be healthy, but some men get hopelessly tied up with those women) or Large Marge in Charge, perfect and "together" in her own life to the point where she's ready to take on either a) an equally together man or b) a man who "needs fixing" and "save" him.

I think a lot of women hear that message and they go out looking for a man to "save." And for some of them, it ends up being fatal. For others, it just means wasted years of frustration and pain.

[kath]

91. Thanks for your thread - interesting topic. I knew that stories such as my sister-in-law's were

what you were getting at. I'm surprised there aren't more accounts of fatalities or near-fatalities given here...

[RFKHumphreyObama]

107. I'm so sorry

That's absolutely tragic. I'm so sorry. There really are no words for what happened. How very, very sad:hug: :grouphug:

[Fumesucker]

32. I think it happened to me..

I'm fairly certain that if I had not met the woman I married thirty years ago that I would have been dead or in prison within a year or two of that time, I was definitely on a self destructive course and all alone. Having someone care about you and share their life with you makes a huge difference.

But I don't necessarily think it's a "good woman" so much as a "good person" or maybe, "the right person" or even "a right person". As someone pointed out basically the same thing can happen to gays who meet that certain partner or a woman on a self destructive course can meet a man who makes things better for her.

We recently got divorced but I blame myself more than I do her, I have a chemical imbalance in my brain that has become more and more difficult to deal with over the years, been stabilized with various meds multiple times and they never seem to keep working. I'm a difficult person to deal with in a lot of ways but I'm nowhere near as self destructive as I was thirty years ago either.

"Life is what happens while we are busy making other plans." -John Lennon

John would know about meeting the right person I think.

[YellowdogIam]

37. In Ted's case

I think it was more a case of she helped save him from himself
She did seem to be the calming, steadying element in his life that had been missing before..Maybe she was at the right place at the right time.. who knows? Had they married in their young years it might have turned out differently..Whatever the reason I'm glad for them both, it seemed like a real love.. a mature love. She speaks to me a class act

[Tangerine LaBamba]

43. He was sixty years old when they married -

he'd kind of sown his wild oats, and by that time, he was probably a whole lot more comfortable with himself. So, along comes a thirty-eight-year-old woman who obviously adored him, and they were able to make a life together.

Age has a way of mellowing all of us.......................

[saltpoint]

38. John Lennon seemed to think so.

[no_hypocrisy]

70. As did Johnny Cash. He worshipped June Carter Cash for saving him from

his destructive lifestyle.

[saltpoint]

100. And the woman had her work cut out for her. More power to her.

[KT2000]

49. I think Obama got it right

he let himself love again - that is how she saved him.
Having lost so many close to him, as Obama said, he probably didn't want to risk losing someone again.

[Hannah Bell]

50. rarely. more often, randy drinkers mellow with age so they're easier to live with

& more appreciative of an uncomplicated, stable life.

& if one has lots of money, one still has the wherewithall for such a life after years of drink & randiness.

unfortunately, poorer men often destroy their economic chances before coming to the age of wisdom.

[Skittles]

51. it happened with my uncle

he was a hopeless alcoholic - his third wife Margaret helped him clean up late in life, married him and they were happy the rest of his days. I still write to my Aunt Margaret. :)

[Maru Kitteh]

52. My mother-in-law believes in it.

[LiberalAndProud]

53. Lucky you! She must adore you.

[Egnever]

54. Happened to me so far.

[Trillo]

55. In the context you've placed it: Probably not, but your same context

can also have a romantic element that you seem to have ignored.

In general, Yes. It is possible for people to "help" each other. Male or female. The problems seem to occur when helping becomes manipulating, which seems to refer back to the context you've used, and which the first replier so humorously pointed out.

[Chemisse]

58. When I met my husband

He was bouncing checks and drinking a bit much.

Now he is a very light drinker and I do the budget.

I don't really think of it that I 'saved' him. My strengths complement him, but his strengths do the same for me. Together we are stronger.

For this to work, we both had to be receptive to the arrangement. And this is something you know pretty quickly. It just has to click; it's not a matter of working harder to save someone. So it is a shame if any women think of it in that way.

[Mari333]

59. Its Bollocks.

I never bought into the meme of changing or saving anyone..what an utter waste of my time, and energy. Besides, its mentally ill to think you can 'save' or 'change' a person...enabling at its worst.
this culture is so tiresomely co dependent. whatever happened to taking responsibility for yourself?

[Darth_Kitten]

63. I second that bollocks..........

:)

Nobody "saves" you. Me, I wouldn't waste my precious time trying to "save" someone, unless it was my child. Then, I'm kind of obligated. ;)

[Dorian Gray]

61. My husband

stopped drinking and partially credits me with his stopping.

I, however, think that's total bullshit.

A) I am not a "good" woman. I am extremely flawed.

and

B) He did all the work himself.

[pipi_k]

62. I think a man...or woman...can be saved

by his or her own LOVE for a woman or man.

Loving that person so much that s/he wants to be a better person him, or her, self.

so in the end, I think it's all about the person "saving" himself...many people have tried to "save" others and have failed, because saving others is impossible. They must want to save themselves first.

[Trillo]

98. You get it.

The "saving" also occurs outside the context of a marriage or partnership, or even typical platonic friendship, perhaps along the lines of Pay it Forward (a movie).

It's amazing to me to look at the schism in beliefs in this thread, particularly centered around the word "codependency" (seems to be used pejoratively). These same folks also seem to support the idea of "official" (govt) forms of "codependency" (think social security and medicare, but not limited just to those two), to hail them as "good", but when similar constructs of "help" are applied to personal relationships, such "co-dependencies" are "bad".

[lunatica]

66. Maybe Teddy himself said it.

In that case I would agree. People are saved all the time by loved ones. I've always felt my son saved my life just by being in it. He doesn't say it. I say it. Same with Teddy.

[Deja Q]

72. Do good women exist? Or good men? Or am I going to the wrong bars?

:yoiks:

[Bucky]

94. Depends, can they make a good Old Fashioned?

The problem may not be the bar. The problem may just be that you're not getting drunk enough. All this MADD crap is ruining romance in this country. After all, how can the right woman get you to stop drinking if you're overdoing it to begin with?

[Deja Q]

96. Who said I drink at the bars?

:D

[otohara]

74. Me & My Hubby Saved Each Other

he was new to this country - I was working in the record business (when there was one) and was getting tired of the dating BS - One jerk after another - and I was tired of putting my self out there only to get rejected or dumped on again. Plus I wanted to settle down, stop going out so much - except on those nights when I had to do promotional events.

Not to mention I was not taking care of myself all that well, due to the many perks that came with working in such a fun industry at that time. I like so many others during those days in the cocaine filled 80's...had too much fun and did much damage.

He saved me, I saved him back.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

75. In Teddy's case along with other very public figures

parties may try to make things work and stay together for appearance sake even though it's hopeless. One thing for sure: even though divorce is all too common, it has a devastating effect on kids, and this tends to get minimized in our throw-away society.

[BuelahWitch]

78. You can't "save" someone who doesn't want to be "saved"

Lots of women AND men look for people who need "fixing." A person isn't a house. You can't add a new coat of paint or put some siding on them and make them good as new. If they don't want to be "fixed," they drag you into their own personal hell. If you're lucky, you get out.

I think Ted wanted to change, and was ready to do so when Vicki came along. He was a good man essentially, but had some demons, which we all do to a certain extent. But if a person does not have that basic goodness, does not like people, the way Ted did, they most likely won't change no matter how "good" a man or woman comes along to help.

[AuntPatsy]

80. Yes just as the love of a good man, doctor, neighbor , relative etc can help but

only if the person is perceptive and ready for that change..without being in that place, no one's love could do a thing..

[Iggo]

82. Sure. If that good woman...

...is your mommy.

[Hello_Kitty]

84. It's a bogus meme and it infantilizes men

You'd think guys would be offended by this kind of stuff but too many of the ones I know seem to enjoy the stereotype of themselves as helpless oafs who need to be "mommy-ed" by their partners. And social conservatives are really enamored with the idea of women being the linchpins of families and that men are savage brutes who need marriage to become civilized.

[kath]

89. +1

[seabeyond]

90. yet then, drag feet all the way whining about "nagging" "ball and chain" ect.... nt

[Iggo]

93. I'm with ya.

Plus a brazillion.

[TayTay]

85. I knew of a couple in which one "saved" the other

and yes, you have to want to be saved. And yes, it is hard work.

But George was saved by Mario. George was a such an insufferable jerk. He was rude, caustic, petty and small a great deal of the time. He met Mario and came to love him and came to crave something else from him, respect. In order to get this, George had to change. Slowly, achingly, with fits and starts, fights and setbacks, he did change. He became a better man, for love.

Was this rational and can it be proved in a laboratory under double-blind testing? I doubt it. But I saw it happen. George was slowly "saved" because it was worth it to be saved and because someone saw something worth saving.

[Bucky]

86. The phrase may be a vestige of a sexist society, BUT a sound relationship can be a good rudder.

So the basic idea isn't a bad notion. The love of a good partner can certainly calm down someone who compulsively carouses and makes self-destructive social decisions. It's not a woman's job; it's a partner's job--or, more specifically, the benefits of a strong, stable partnership regardless of gender or orientation. Not all partnerships provide that, but then that's why God gave up couples' counseling.

[cliffordu]

87. I was effectively on the streets when I met Mrs. Cliffordu....

She accepted me for what I was.

She gave me a safe place to confront the demons. There were many.

As a result, somewhere along the line I wanted to be a better man - so draw your own conclusions.

I believe, however, that she saved me 'in every way a person can be saved' to quote that old gal in the titanic movie.

We've been together for 28 years, married 26.

I just told her I wanted to rethink it. She said "don't let me interrupt..."


edit for punct

[SoCalDem]

92. We're a "story" culture. Cold hard facts require thought & analysis

Americans have always created and believed in myths. It;s funny too, because as a people we tend to negate Greek mythology, as we create our own.

Myths are little more than people creating stories from misunderstood nuggets of fact. Facts "dumbed-down" for the illiterate masses.

It's why be believe all the Cowboy-western crap (it's just sanitized Manifest Destiny/harsh nationalism, romanticized).

It's how we rationalize war crimes WE commit, and push for punishment for the crimes against us.

It's why we don't treat marriage & child-rearing as much more than tv-movie of the week stuff.

Most people have an epiphany at some point in their lives, when they realize that they are finally "grown up" and should start acting like a grown up. Once they reach that point they may be ready for a real love-relationship. The person they meet next, may be that person, but they did not "save" them.. they just met at the right time..

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. The worse myth is the Cinderella myth.

Not every man is a handsome prince. In fact, they are precious few in number. Sometimes, the best a woman can hope for is a better-dressed frog.

I'm confident that I'm a better person due to my wife's influence. That doesn't imply that she isn't also a better person due to my influence.

I don't see why this should be controversial.

[Toucano]

97. The "good woman" or "good man" part isn't relevant. It's the "love" part.

Love is a very powerful force that has the potential energy to create astounding change in people and the world.

We're not talking Hallmark® hearts and flowers love, but real love.

Mother Teresa saved thousands with her love. I wouldn`t call that a romantic hazy fairytale.

[smalll]

103. It happens. But when it's a man in his late 60s marrying a 30something woman,

it's more about some lucky lady taking the helm when the man's body itself begins to slow down the demons. At 60 plus or 70, no-one's going to be causing girls to claw at the upholstery in submerged cars as they drown, or trying to rape female employees of DC restaurants in private dining rooms.

[blue neen]

104. Sorry, but I think your remark is very disrespectful.

I wouldn't call anyone in that family "lucky" right now.

[DevonRex]

116. That poster hates the whole family. nt

[RagAss]

106. No illusion can save another illusion.

[TicketyBoo]

110. Only if he wants to be saved.

It was Easter of 1991 when William Kennedy Smith was charged with rape after an evening of drinking with Uncle Teddy. A couple of months later, Ted met Vicki. He was 59; she was 37. The following October, he gave the speech about recognizing his "shortcomings" — "the faults in the conduct of my private life. I realize that I alone am responsible for them, and I am the one who must confront them." So, he was ready to be "saved," ready to settle down, and Vicki was there to help him accomplish that, not just for himself, but for her, too — for their happiness together.

[puebloknot]

111. That bothered me, too. And Joan Kennedy, mother of Ted's three children ...

... was in the audience. She has had her problems with alcohol, and I read that her children have had her declared their ward because she is mentally ill and can't care for herself.

Nevertheless, she was there and by inference was the woman who didn't/couldn't brink Ted back from the brink. I think that must have been very painful for her.

No one knows the whole story.

[dugaresa]

113. No, it is a myth. People can only be saved if they are ready for the saving and that is their choice

I think that Ted Kennedy had all his rough edges worked out and when he met this woman he was probably ready for a steady relationship.

When he was younger, handsome, and enjoying the benefits as well as enduring the struggles of being a Kennedy he was being "polished" by experience. Joan was there either helping or not (who is to say). Their marriage could not endure for what ever reasons.

He continued to party and misbehave and then in his late 50's when I am sure his libido had slowed down and he was more reflective, he met another woman who "saved him". That "saving" could mean a lot of things but it probably meant, "saved me from being alone in my golden years once I figured out what I was up to".

If Joan had been his widow, people would have been going on about how "she was his rock", but for whatever reasons she and he couldn't make it work.

This doesn't mean Vicki wasn't a positive influence but Teddy was ready at the time he met her to finally settle down.

Think of alcoholics, until they admit they have a problem, they can't really recover.

Until people grow up and realize what their goals are, they continue to wander about and people who are in that wandering stage aren't normally easy to get along with.

[AndrewP]

114. It's just the Disney fetish a lot of people have

[DevonRex]

115. Of course it does. And women are saved by the love of good men, too.

There are some folks out there who just need someone who believes in them to realize they're not so bad after all.

[Cleita]

118. No fairy tale.

An acquaintance of mine claims his dog, a rescue from an abusive situation, saved his life. He was in the depth of depression after a nervous breakdown. In a sense they saved each other. Now I'm not trying to compare a woman to a dog, but how a loving partner whether human or canine can save a person who was in a downward spiral in their lives.

[treestar]

119. No, it's sexist BS

No one can be saved until they are ready to save themselves.

Just more excuse that "nature" makes woman "want" to take on all the problems whle men get to have all the fun and be self indulgent.

"It's a man's world," yeah, we've heard that for decades. Not buying it any more. A man who is messed up should fix his own life rather than depending on a woman 20 years his junior to do it.

[Hansel]

120. I think finding the right person with similar interests helps

Vicky Kennedy, I understand, is from a political family and is a high powered attorney. She has the same political views as Teddy and by all accounts was heavily involved in the legislation that he put forward in the years that they were together. I think compatibility had a great deal to do with why having her in his life "saved him".

I believe they met not too long after the incident where his nephew, William Kennedy Smith, was accused of rape and he was accused of running around the house in just a shirt and no trousers. This was a highly embarrassing episode that put him back into the spotlight in a bad light after finally overcoming the negative publicity of Chappaquiddick. I'm going to guess that he was motivated by this embarrassment to want to turn his life around. I thought he had sought treatment or quit drinking at that time creating a situation where Vicky came along at just the right time. The rape trial took place in 1991 and he married Vicky in 1992.

I met Teddy Kennedy in the mid-1980s. He looked pretty rough and his face seemed to bear the tell tale sign of a heavy drinker. But he was radiant when I spoke with him and he was ever much as pleasant and gracious as everyone has said. To me he seemed to have it in him to be a better person than he was rumored to be. Having met many politicians in my day, and being all too familiar with the phoniness and the womanizing they engage in, I guess I was surprised in meeting him that he wasn't "creepy" but instead was very down-to-earth and genuine. I'm sure Vicky saw this in him too.

I think it's a case of nearly perfect compatibility and timing that saved his life. I doubt many other women, however, even having come along at that time would have made that kind of difference. I think she is a kind and gentle woman who by all accounts has a world of love to give and a very strong backbone.

I suspect she will remain very involved in getting the health care bill done for Ted and will work behind the scene to advocate for it in the senate and to provide support for Obama.