ACLU Lobbyist Larry Frankel Found Dead in Washington

[Are_grits_groceries]

Longtime Pennsylvania ACLU lobbyist and Executive Director Larry Frankel, who in the last year or so has become the lobbyist for the national ACLU, has apparently been found dead in Washington under mysterious circumstances. Larry was 54. This is a breaking news story in which most key facts are still generally unknown.

Frankel was an outstanding lobbyist for the Pennsylvania ACLU in Harrisburg, taking positions on scores to hundreds of bills each year. He was a coalition builder reminiscent of Ted Kennedy in the U.S. Senate or William Brennan on the U.S. Supreme Court, who agressively reached out to unlikely allies like the National Rifle Association to help persuade members of the legislature that the ACLU was addressing broad concerns.

His aggressive outreach removed the ACLU from the fringes or margins of state policy and moved it toward the center of direct involvement.
http://youngphillypolitics.com/aclu_lobbyist_larry_frankel_found_dead_washington

Homicide Division of Washington Police Confirms Frankel Death

A few minutes ago, the homicide division of the Washington, D.C. Police Department confirmed to me a rumor that the man found yesterday at 11:00 a.m. in the water at Rock Creek Park was indeed our friend Lawrence Evan Frankel, known to us all as Larry. The Washington Post ran a story online yesterday about the finding of the body.

The homicide division says that an autopsy will be done later today to determine the cause of his death. While the homicide division is investigating his death, they do not know at this time that his death was due to homicide. The timing of this autopsy may keep the story out of the papers until Monday or Tuesday.
http://youngphillypolitics.com/user/repmarkbcohen

Now what?

[Mari333]

1. pro choice, gay rights activist

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/08/aclu-lobbyist-gay-rightspro-choice.html

wait n see.

and he has a partner
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/07/style/weddings-celebrations-larry-frankel-andrew-chirls.html

[BREMPRO]

55. I'll put money on murder related to his work.

Announcement of his national appointment in march 08 : http://www.aclu.org/about/staff/34475prs20080313.html

The police should do a THOROUGH investigation and i would put money on an assassination by some homophobic, racist, anti-Semitic, pro-life right wing radio listening nut thinking he was doing "god's work"..

[BrklynLiberal]

59. Assassination was the word that popped into my mind as well.

[BREMPRO]

66. In honor of his service and because we WON'T be intimidated, I just donated and joined the ACLU

link to ACLU donation/membership: http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FJ_donationhome


Dear brad,

Thank you for making a contribution to the American Civil Liberties Union. Your gift will help us continue the fight for our basic civil liberties. Below is your donation information.

[BrklynLiberal]

67. Great. I have been a member for decades.

[varelse]

93. you just inspired me to do the same

thank you :)

[onenote]

125. how much?

$10 to DU?

[malaise]

2. WTF??

Rec

[omega minimo]

74. +120

[Lerkfish]

3. sounds like he was "suicided" against his will.

that would be my guess.

[H2O Man]

6. I think it

is an example of what many of us knew was coming.

Recommended.

[onenote]

12. what in the article makes it sound like that is what happened?

[Lerkfish]

21. "ACLU lobbyist"

and an increased ignorant mob/white supremacist/right wing militia/threatening of democrats/fearmongering Glenn Beck kinda country.

do I need any other reason to be suspicious? As I said, it was "my guess".

oh, I so tire of netnanny DUers that demand me to provide unequivocable proof of my surmises, guess, opinions etc..
If I had proof, I wouldn't be stating my opinion, surmise, etc.

its just a chickenshit way to shut down the opinions of others.

[TheWraith]

23. And I'm sick and tired of people going off paranoid without cause.

Your "just guessing" is, when based on no facts of any kind, not really any different from the freepers "just guessing" about Obama's birth certificate. It's rumor mongering. If a person expects to be taken seriously in a debate, they need to provide facts.

[Liberation Angel]

25. "sick and tired" How About We on the Left are RESIGNED to assassinations?

There was a secret murder squad run out of the white house by Dick Cheney and Blackwater.

The ACLU has been at the forefront of getting the info about Cheney/Bush/Blackwater/Fourth Reich crimes against humanity and murders out to the public.

Facts are:

A leading member of the effort to prosecute these crimes is DEAD!

The circumstances are extremely suspicious (death in Rock Creek Park, dead face down in the water is both a very public possible execution and in your face - as this is the HEART of Washington DC).

And YES, Wraith, we have yet to know what the cause of death is.

But it is NOT paranoia to assume that the POSSIBILITY of murder is very high and that there is certainly motive, opportunity and means to comt an assassination like this for the Fascists who run these murder/genocide squads.

Keeping an open mind is important.

But many of us on the progressive side after the murders of JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm and literally millions of others (many many assassinations) are RESIGNED to the FACT that fascists of this new Fourth Reich WILL ruthlessly murder opposition leaders.

This man was an opposition leader.

We are sick and tired of having our leaders murdered.

and to be sure no matter how this death occurred there wil be efforts to make it look like the rackerteering fascists had nothing to do with it.

So your rant gets no props from me...

It is obfuscation before all the facts are in and speculation, especially based on past experience, with these treasonous bloodthirsty fascists is perfectly normal response for many many of us.

So do NOT say there is no cause for people to suspect foul play by the fascists.

It is typical for them.

Get used to it.

[cui bono]

39. I recommend this post.

:)

[The Hope Mobile]

106. me too - now we need to get the American people sick and tired

of these crimes!

[pleah]

41. ......

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

43. Ah, truth -- !!!

If anyone can remain in denial about former assassinations, then they are
in denial of the possibility of new terrors.

The right wing here has risen in the only way the right can rise -- thru
lies, propaganda, stolen elections -- but, thru violence, of course.

Needless to say, we don't yet know what happened here -- but there is every
reason to be suspicious.

[leftstreet]

48. +1

[HughBeaumont]

57. K und R. It's the unspeakable truism:

(Lest anyone brand me a "woo woo" or "tin foil" :eyes: :eyes: )

It sure ain't Republican politicians (with positions contrary to MIC agenda), journalists and other associates and their families perishing in freak fiery plane crashes, "suicides" or assassinations.

What's even weirder is that almost all deaths either follow, happen during, or are involved somehow with chicanery/illegal actions/exposing/gaining a following against either corporate, Republican or military wrongdoing.

And no matter HOW dubious the circumstance, we do absolutely nothing except say "shit happens, how tragic".

[mirrera]

58. K&R to you...

[Odin2005]

61. But none of that is actual EVIDENCE for the claim that this guy was suicuded.

The whole assertion is a fallacy, it is a logically invalid argument, it is SUPERSTITIOUS THINKING.

[Liberation Angel]

120. You are right - no evidence of suicide. Hence possibility of murder

That is all

[Mystayya]

140. Or maybe even an accidental or natural cause.

Perhaps waiting for some details before creating theories might be a good idea.

[Why Syzygy]

151. "MYSTERIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES"

"HOMICIDE DIVISION"
"AUTOPSY"
"IN THE WATER"

You saying the cops don't know what they're doing?

I'm very surprised you have the audacity to make any claims on "rationality".

[OwnedByFerrets]

71. Fantastic Post

[NBachers]

92. Yeah! What LiberationAngel said!

[DKRC]

101. Well said

:thumbsup:

[inna]

107. i rec this post too!

:applause:

[lib_wit_it]

113. Correct. The have earned the suspicion.

[Lerkfish]

31. I see you have proven me correct.

you're one of the ones demanding evidence for an opinion or I'm not allowed to express it, on a message board, of all places .

yet, you are free to call me paranoid (an opinion, I presume) and I am NOT debating, asshole. I'm expressing my opnion.

I dont think you should be allowed to express YOUR opinion without evidence or facts PROVING I'm paranoid.


geez.

[Liberation Angel]

32. Frankly

If you are not paranoid you are not paying attention.


Words beginning in para- abound, from paramedic to paralegal to paranormal. The prefix "para-" comes from the Greek for "beyond" or "beside", while "noia" is derived from the Greek "noos", meaning "mind". So paranoia literally rendered means something like "out of one's mind" or "beyond one's mind". Hence the phrases "out of your mind", or more loosely "beside oneself with anger", or "lost my mind".

The English word "ecstasy" is derived from the Greek "ekstasis", which roughly means to stand outside (of oneself or one's mind). Ecstasy has a much better feeling about it than does paranoia, yet each word has similar early connotations - madness as double-edged sword of both terror and rapture.

What this is all about (such an assassination - of this is what it was) is TERROR.

Murder for political reasons strikes terror into the heart of those who also may become victims. it quiets them. It makes them hide and retreat and stay away from the perpetrators. It is the exact Nazi/Fascist mindset that they WANT us to accept.

Whether or not this was a murder the fact is that political murder is part of our history. All of us on the pacifist left are vulnerable when we are unafraid to speak out and act.

So this COULD be a message to all of us and anyone who rises to the leadership.

Basically Paranois means we are "out of our minds" with fear, with anxiety, with concern.

BUT, as with ecstasy, it does not mean there is NOT could reason for us to be in such a mental state.

the history of Naziism and Fascism has taught us that such murders happen, they are meant to terrorize us and to weaken us so that we cannot fight or oppose the terror, that it can strike anyone anywhere at any time, and that we are powerless to stop it.

In such a circumstance, being paranoid is not delusional, it is the appropriate psychic and emotional response to terror. We SHOULD be beside ourselves with anger and even fear and hostility.

Paranoia is nt a bad thig, necessarily, but it is a label to make you question your own mind and the rationality of your perspective. It is a tactic to make you look weak and delusional when in fact you are smart and correct and even wise about these things.

Yeah I AM out of my mind over such things.

THAT is a normal response.

So is the seeking of justice and truth and punishment for the evil perpetrators and Nazi like zombies of the Cheney death squads

[druidity33]

33. um...

the Homicide division showed up, so it's not Paranoia to believe the man in question was murdered...

:shrug:

[onenote]

126. umm, the homicide division typically shows up when a body is found in circumstances

that require investigation. Doesn't make it a murder or even a homicide.

[defendandprotect]

44. One of the last things the right wing wants is anyone connecting dots . . .

nor acknowledging the reality of past assassinations/political murder --

Just look at the information Sibel Edmonds, alone, has provided re blackmail, drug money,
money laundering, using agents to entrap and ensnare officials in sexual scandals.
And the reality that it was being covered up by high officials in government -- exactly
why . . . let's guess . . . "national security" -- ??

Again -- there is every reason to be suspicious .... all the time!!!

[EOTE]

51. If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention.

Jesus christ, what more reason do you need? A convenient "suiciding" is where my mind wanders to whenever something like this happens, and my guess is usually right. To say that any of us are paranoid without cause is a display of ignorance beyond belief.

[Bucky]

85. Ignore the chatterbugs.

They don't matter. Just wait for the rest of the information to come out (and be skeptical about whatever the news says, too).

 

[peacetalksforall]

100. I'm tired of people not allowing a gut reaction to touch the body and head, And I'm ticked

when everyone want to be 100% correct on the first day. It's obvious at this point that it will be a 50-50 right or wrong development, no matter which way someone leans.

You are not right, you are not wrong. You are at 50. So is the guy/gal you are responding to.

A person has a right to have a first reaction - from the gut or not.

[BlueJazz]

53. I agree with you Lerkfish. The Republicans have done so many...

...dirty, disgusting deeds in the past that I wouldn't put a F*cking thing past them.
I deal with Repugs every day and I've learned (the hard way) not to EVER think that they wouldn't do the most despicable things known to mankind.

[havocmom]

82. +1

[Why Syzygy]

149. +1!

its just a chickenshit way to shut down the opinions of others.

[Why Syzygy]

148. "mysterious circumstances"

"homicide division"
"autopsy"
"in the water"

You wouldn't make a very good investigative cop would you?

[Odin2005]

60. Got any proof of that?

Or did you just pull it out of your ass?

Claiming that he must have been suicided is mere confirmation bias.

[Occulus]

77. Do you feel the same about the motives behind Dr. Tiller's murder? n/t

[Odin2005]

83. The two are not comparable.

And in any case, I am NOT saying that he wasn't assasinated, what I'm saying that we shouldn't jump to politically convenient conclusions before the data comes in.

[anigbrowl]

105. Hello? It hasn't even been established whether this case is a homicide.

Honestly, I don't know how people like you manage to tie your own shoelaces.

[DCKit]

73. Before the conspiracy theories get too prevalent....

Rock Creek Park is a gay cruising area and attacks by muggers and other predators are pretty common. It is known to be dangerous to go into the woods at night.

Just sayin'.

[Bucky]

87. No, that's just what they WANT you to think. Wheels withing wheels, man.

The illuminati and the masons and the Rothschilds and the Jesuits and the Wilbarton Oaks secret cabal and the Pope and the Queen of England and the CIA and the FEMA all work for the man who burned Michael Weston.

I could tell you more, but I'd have to kill myself.

 

[DCKit]

97. Thanks for clearing that up for me Bucky.

Are those FEMA camps ready yet? Surely you can throw me a bone.

[anigbrowl]

104. Sounds like you need to get your feet back on the ground

So he was in the ACLU. Big deal. Coulda had a hert attack: happens all the time. Coulda had a brain haemorrage: my aunt died that way at about the same age. Coulda had a cocaine habit: it's not that unusual. Coulda been a whole lot of things. Coroner's office hasn't even decided if it was homicide or not. Even if it was, there's a variety of possibilities which have nothing to do with his ACLU work.

People who automatically reach for teh worst possible explanation are idiots. Next time some GOPer dies and FR is abuzz with 'Oh noes, did Obama do it?' - which is bound to happen, sooner or later, just on the law of averages - I'll be thinking of you, because the kind of BS you spout here and downthread does nothing but play on ignorance and fear.

Evidence. Learn about it, and give your ego a rest.

[Sancho]

4. Two dangerous locations: small planes and public parks!

If I were rubbing the powerful the wrong way, I'd avoid both at all costs.

:tinfoilhat:

[Are_grits_groceries]

5. Rock Creek Park especially.

That is where Vince Foster was found.

[wtmusic]

10. And Chandra Levy. nt

[ensho]

17. agree, Rock Creek Park is a favorite

nt

[FarCenter]

20. Vince Foster was found in Fort Marcy Park

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Foster

[SidDithers]

122. Never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory...

thanks for posting actual facts.

Sid

[Beacho]

8. Don't forget unsolicited invitations

to out of the way motel rooms

[mod mom]

7. K & R A loss for all.

[PCIntern]

9. Virtually no press in Philly on this story...

I'm gonna ask some of my 'connected' folk in the political community...I'll know by the answers as to what's going on here in town...they're so frigging transparent, and think they're so 'political'...if I find anything, I'll post it

[Cha]

37. Thanks..like the poster wrote up thread..

if one isn't paranoid(especially about the good guys dying mysteriously)..you're not paying attention.

[alfredo]

11. I just received an anti ACLU e-mail this morning. I sent a reply with

that the right wing hate campaign against the ACLU is having the desired effect.

[nc4bo]

13. Sorry to hear this. He sounded like he was a wonderful man doing great things

and THAT alone would make him a target.

Hopefully there will be a full and SERIOUS investigation and the guilty will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[Are_grits_groceries]

14. If anybody finds out anything about this,

please post the info! Thanks.

[Vidar]

15. More murder by Republican, in all probability.

[704wipes]

166. Xe under contract

nt

[dgibby]

16. Just went to the link provided.

Rep Mark Cohen is updating his blog regularly, so I suspect he's going to be an excellent news source for this story.

[Are_grits_groceries]

18. I can't find doodly anywhere.

I've checked a lot of sites and nary a peep yet.

[progressoid]

22. The media will ignore it

unless we make a stink about it. ;)

[kenny blankenship]

34. I could not find a thing on DC area papers' sites but there is a ACLU of PA statement:

http://www.aclupa.org/pressroom/aclumournspassingoflarryfr.htm

Confirmation of the basic story (he's dead) , but no details.

[AuntPatsy]

19. How horrific...he needed protection..where were we? He was out there fighting for us...

and where were we to protect him?

[Mystayya]

131. huh?

[glinda]

24. Without knowing the facts, my guess is that he was a "target" to offer up because of

all the references to "equality" during Teddies funeral.

[Liberation Angel]

30. We know FOUR facts: He's DEAD, he was against fascism, death was suspicious and a

the people who would have motive to kill him include the fascist assassination squads run by the former VP.

According to the video I posted above, Blackwater, which ran the murderous political assassination ops out of that fascist Cheney's office, have TWENTY THOUSAND operators at the ready to do such operations.

THE ACLU has been instrumental in exposing this treasonous cult of death and murder and greed.

So we KNOW these facts.

It MAY look like something else when the investigation is muddied up

but there are enough facts to say it is more than a "guess" tat he was a target of the extreme right.

It is a damn good bet that he is another martyr for freedom and democracy at the hands of fascist gestapo under the color of bogus "patriotism"

[Odin2005]

63. And here, everyone, is a perfect example of confirmation bias.

[Occulus]

78. I guarantee you police are asking who this man's enemies were.

I also guarantee you they are going to look at those people for motive.

It's not confirmation bias, it's a healthy- and, by his own work and what he was lobbying for/against, justified- suspicion based on certain known facts. That's called "investigation".

[comicus1980]

26. Another strike for the "family values" crowd...

Whether one of them did the deed or not, they'll relish in his death like the vultures they are, just like with Dr. Tiller.

[Strong Atheist]

72. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Liberation Angel]

27. If I were lead investigator in DC I'd "like" and interrogate Blackwater for this

By way of background:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3D%2522Larry%2520Frankel%2522%2520%2520blackwater%26oe%3DUTF%2D8%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26sa%3DN%26hl%3D&feature=player_embedded#t=21

[AuntPatsy]

28. Not a bad idea..

[Hubert Flottz]

115. Same thing I was thinking Blackwater or CIA...

Maybe Dick was on TV to try and establish his alibi?

[Liberal_in_LA]

29. OMG!

[ShortnFiery]

35. I hope KO or Rachel Maddow get a hold of this story: Those two are the only Large Media

that would DARE report on this and genuinely INVESTIGATE.

[tomm2thumbs]

36. recent notes about how he was found

http://lezgetreal.com/?p=21129

Police say that a jogger running along a path in the park just south of Beach Drive and north of Massachusetts Ave NW, about 11 a.m. Friday saw something floating in the water that later turned out to be Frankels body. US Park Police initially responded to the joggers 911 call and were later joined on the scene by investigators from the homicide division of the DC Metro Police.

a bit more at that link

[Are_grits_groceries]

38. "The Raw Story" has picked it up.

Quoted "lezgetreal." Nothing new yet.

They have a lid on this.

[Christa]

40. I smell a big fat rat

We have to keep an eye on this.

[pleah]

42. K&R

[Raine]

45. Very convenient death

for their side, too damn convenient. :yoiks:

[rucognizant]

49. Liberation Angel

There is NOTHING in the Greek root words to indicate "lost"! Para bed side , or out of, noia, is simply mind!
WHen you experience esp, you go "beyond your mind? but it is not lost nor are you.............in fact it can be a very purpose driven experience.
We all have different talents. I have perfect pitch, but not much voice quality so I didn't become a singer........I have a built in GSP.
My Mother Grwandmother & Aunt used to rely in me to tell them which road to take getting home from Philly ( 65 miles ), WHEN I WAS 10.
I can't do math to save my soul, but my intuition is really really good! I knew we were in DEEP trouble in Nov/Dec.2000. There was no concrete PROOF for several years...............

[onenote]

128. why him? there are any number of people above him in the ACLU hierarchy

A person little known outside the ACLU world who only joined the national organization a few months ago is a target? A guy know for actually trying to work with conservatives?

Puh-leeze. You denigrate his memory by exploiting it with unsubstantiated supposition.

[Liberation Angel]

169. My only supposition is that failure to fully explore the possibility of murder is betrayal

why denigrate an attempt to find the truth about a possible murder.

He was a gay activist on the trail of Cheney and Bush murderer squads and mercenaries.

He was the top liaison to the US Senate and House

you do not know what you are talking about.

[Liberation Angel]

46. If you are not paranoid you are not paying attention. Rest in Peace good warrior

If you are not paranoid you are not paying attention.


Words beginning in para- abound, from paramedic to paralegal to paranormal. The prefix "para-" comes from the Greek for "beyond" or "beside", while "noia" is derived from the Greek "noos", meaning "mind". So paranoia literally rendered means something like "out of one's mind" or "beyond one's mind". Hence the phrases "out of your mind", or more loosely "beside oneself with anger", or "lost my mind".

The English word "ecstasy" is derived from the Greek "ekstasis", which roughly means to stand outside (of oneself or one's mind). Ecstasy has a much better feeling about it than does paranoia, yet each word has similar early connotations - madness as double-edged sword of both terror and rapture.

What this is all about (such an assassination - if this is what it was) is TERROR.

Murder for political reasons strikes terror into the heart of those who also may become victims. it quiets them. It makes them hide and retreat and stay away from the perpetrators. It is the exact Nazi/Fascist mindset that they WANT us to accept.

Whether or not this was a murder the fact is that political murder is part of our history. All of us on the pacifist left are vulnerable when we are unafraid to speak out and act.

So this COULD be a message to all of us and anyone who rises to the leadership.

Basically Paranoia means we are "out of our minds" with fear, with anxiety, with concern.

BUT, as with ecstasy, it does not mean there is NOT could reason for us to be in such a state.

the history of Naziism and Fascism has taught us that such murders happen, they are meant to terrorize us and to weaken us so that we cannot fight or oppose the terror, that it can strike anyone anywhere at any time, and that we are powerless to stop it.

In such a circumstance, being paranoid is not delusional, it is the appropriate psychic and emotional response to terror. We SHOULD be beside ourselves with anger and even fear and hostility.

Paranoia is nt a bad thig, necessarily, but it is a label to make you question your own mind and the rationality of your perspective. It is a tactic to make you look weak and delusional when in fact you are smart and correct and even wise about these things.

Yeah I AM out of my mind over such things.

THAT is a normal response.

So is the seeking of justice and truth and punishment for the evil perpetrators and Nazi like zombies of the Cheney death squads

[Raster]

54. "Murder for political reasons strikes terror into the heart of those who also may become victims.

It quiets them. It makes them hide and retreat and makes them vote the way you want in Congress. Even vote for a war they know damned well is a lie from the very beginning. Yep. Terror will do that to people.

[and-justice-for-all]

47. Random act of violence or "other"

:popcorn:

[bluesmail]

50. Message sent. Message received. eom

[PAMod]

52. That is terrible news.

I knew Larry from a previous job I had in Harrisburg. In addition to being a very nice man to deal with professionally, he was always a real tiger for the ACLU.

What a terrible loss. My condolences go out to his loved ones, friends and coworkers.

[G_j]

56. kick

[Odin2005]

62. Wow, the conspiracy nuts have jumped on this like flies on shit.

They are perfect examples of confirmation bias. Sad.

[BlueJac]

65. It is their opinion, get over it.....

you have yours, let them have theirs!

[troubledamerican]

70. Odin2005's own confirmation bias: "There are no political conspiracies in the U.S."

[Odin2005]

90. A conspiracy is one thing, thinking society is micromanaged by shadowy forces is another.

The later is a secularized version of thinking that everything that happens is the result of the gods on Olympus. It's a kind of secularized polytheism.

[troubledamerican]

103. CTers & Odin2005, both rationalizing their generalizations & confirmation biases

And in both cases, there's a lot of projective psychology going on.

Unfortunately, both CTers & Odin2005 can be simultaneously correct. But if you don't believe in conspiracies, then you don't believe in U.S. history, especially latter-day U.S. history. Which, even in the instances when Odin2005 is correct about CTers, nevertheless is rendered moot by the facts.

And since nearly 99% of political assassinations seem to only afflict public figures on the Left, Odin, I'd say you should write a book explaining the psychology of why alleged Lone Nuts almost entirely avoid shooting those on the Right. Your book will be a gold mine.

[Odin2005]

117. I don't believe there was some conspiracy involved in the deaths of JFK, RFK, and MLK.

At the very most there may have been a "just leave them vulnerable to wackjobs" attitude by people like J. Edgar Hoover and Poppy Bush, simply not going after people that looked like they were trying to threaten a left-wing public figure. THAT is a far more reasonable and sensible hypothesis than the overly elaborate hypotheses concocted by the conspiracy nuts. It's not hypothesizing possible conspiracies that is the problem, it is when such theories degenerate into what philosopher Karl Popper called the "Conspiracy Theory of Society", everything bad is declared the result of the shadowing actors micromanaging everyhting, that one has a problem.

[Liberation Angel]

133. Your total failure to get it is clear: murder is policy

To say what you say here pretty much says it all about your perspective and your total failure to understand history.

Political assassinations and conspiracies happen. They are by their nature elaborate.

There is nothing concocted and the people who theorize objectively are not nuts.

There is tons of evidence to show that all three of these murders were conspiracies. There is even a court decision in the MLK cae and neither JFK nor RFK cases ever went to trial so there is no evidence to establish that these were NOT CONSPIRACIES. In fact many would argue that the vast weight of the evidence points to shadow government forces doing elaborate political assassinations.

For the record: Poppers rejected and opposed empiricism.

It seems you have abandoned empirical thinking as well.

Too bad.

[Odin2005]

155. "Poppers rejected and opposed empiricism."

For one thing there is no S in is name, and if you think Popper opposed empiricism you don't understand what he was talking about.

[Liberation Angel]

168. From the Popper wiki entry which is pretty definite on this point

Popper's philosophy

Philosophy of Science
Popper coined the term critical rationalism to describe his philosophy. The term indicates his rejection of classical empiricism, and of the observationalist-inductivist account of science that had grown out of it Popper argued strongly against the latter, holding that scientific theories are abstract in nature, and can be tested only indirectly, by reference to their implications. He also held that scientific theory, and human knowledge generally, is irreducibly conjectural or hypothetical, and is generated by the creative imagination in order to solve problems that have arisen in specific historico-cultural settings


so there

[Odin2005]

173. "Rejecting CLASSICAL Empiricism" does not mean "Rejecting Empiricism"

He rejected the notion of inductive reasoning, which David Hume showed not to be logically coherent. ALL observation is theory-laden, observation only makes sense as a test, if only implicit, of current theories. The thing that makes science what it is, is using empirical evidence and experiment to test and to try and falsify a theory.

[troubledamerican]

164. Still generalizing about CT, missing the point (& a peculiarly American conceit)

And still haven't answered the question: Why do alleged "Lone Nuts" almost never shoot Right-Wingers, only Progressives?

It's a peculiarly American conceit to say that covert action is (a) too elaborate to exist, and (b) the only explanation proffered by all "CTers".

Ask the Vietnamese about the Phoenix Program, in which leadership was decapitated systematically.

Ask the Iraqis about this story, still unexamined as a likely Bush Phoenix Program:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/international/middleeast/07ASSA.html?ex=1391490000&en=1d4f662cec46b775&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

Ask Latin Americans about Operation Condor. Or their many CIA-sponsored coups d'etat.

Why would the CIA undertake Far Right-boosting, leadership-decapitating covert action in foriegn lands if covert action wasn't efficacious?

Why WOULDN'T Far Right factions or rogue players within the Pentagon or DIA or CIA undertake identical programs domestically if those programs worked so well abroad?

The ghosts of dead Latin Americans kinda sorta do believe in "Conspiracy Theory of Society" -- and when my question about Why Only Progressives Get Assassinated still goes unanswered, I kinda don't blame them.

Then when the Coincidence Theorists emerge on DU to issue the standard "tinfoil" epithets, and especially generalizations about "all CTers are Alex Jones/it's-all-a-conspiracy wackos" ... it sounds like a conceit of American Exceptionalism to me.

[omega minimo]

75. Grow up, Odin. How blatant are these bastards now?

They depend on "sense of suspended disbelief" beyond ALL possible "rational" exprectations. :think:

[Odin2005]

84. You misunderstood me.

I was not saying that he was not assasinated, I was saying that its stupid to simply jump to that conclusion before the forensic data comes in. without the data it's just speculation, and speculation is colored by our own cognitive biases, we want to see confirmations of our theories even when they don't really exist, which is how conspiracy theories start, people get stuck in a cycle of seeing "confirmations" of their theory everywhere because they are seeing what they want to see, and criticism is rationalized away. All observation is theory laden, if you go out looking for confirmations you will always find them, one has to try to falsify ones theories, not merely "confirm" them.

[omega minimo]

94. Well put but that's not at all what you said.

[Odin2005]

95. I was just exasperated by the conclusion-jumping.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

98. So?

[peacetalksforall]

102. You don't live for 46 years since the assassination of JFK and NOT think conspiracy.

[Occulus]

81. These are *suspicions*, Odin. Healthy ones.

Or are you going to say that if I drive an armored truck carrying gold bars, and I'm found behind the wheel with a bullet in the back of my head and all the gold gone, it could have been just anything? You're really saying you're not going to start with armed robbery as the motive?

We are speculating based on the available facts: a high-profile lobbyist pushing for investigation of war crimes, among other things, was found dead face-down in a creek in the middle of DC. If you don't think this smells just a bit, there's something seriously wrong with you.

Nobody's concluding anything here, Odin. This is all healthy speculation.

Or have you forgotten about Dr. Tiller so soon?

[Odin2005]

88. I was just amused by how people suddenly jumped to conclusions.

He definitely could have been assassinated, it's definitely a possibility (Talking about possible assassinations, what ever happened to the investigation of the death of that Kelly guy in the UK?), but it could have just been a mugging gone wrong, some something else. WE JUST DON'T KNOW until the forensic data comes in.

[omega minimo]

99. and your "flies on shit" remark seemed less than neutral, didn't it?

[anigbrowl]

109. Of course. They love an evidence-free zone.

What can you do. Most conspiracy theorists lack the dedication and critical thinking skills to function as serious journalists or researchers, which is why so many CTers are unable to express their ideas coherently or employ any kind of scientific method. The less evidence, the more opportunity for them to make guesses and flatter their own egos, while saying idiotic things like 'prove me wrong'.

You know how it goes. If it turns out not to be homicide, the coroner is part of the conspiracy. If it turns out to be, say, drug use then somebody shoved coke up his nose. And so on. Because somebody dying at the age of 54, well it can't be natural, can it? He was a lobbyist for the ACLU so it just has to be murder.

According to this article: http://www.philly.com/philly/obituaries/20090831_Larry_Frankel__54__civil_liberties_lobbyist_in_Pa_.html 'relatives said he died of natural causes'. so they must be in on it too!

[Odin2005]

116. It's a kind of self-induced neurosis created by one's own cognitive biases.

It's the result of not being skeptical of one's intuitions, treating those intuitions as a source of truth rather than simply a source of possibilities. All observation is theory-laden, if we simply look for evidence to support out theories without looking for evidence that contradicts our theories we will ALWAYS find "confirmations" because of confirmation bias.

[Liberation Angel]

124. Baloney - calling it neurosis is BS

first of all, according to answers.com
neurosis
Dictionary: neu·ro·sis (nʊ-rō'sĭs, nyʊ-)
n., pl. -ses (-sēz).
"Any of various mental or emotional disorders, such as hypochondria or neurasthenia, arising from no apparent organic lesion or change and involving symptoms such as insecurity, anxiety, depression, and irrational fears, but without psychotic symptoms such as delusions or hallucinations. No longer in scientific use."


second of all: "confirmation bias" is defined as irrational conclusions.

I would say there is nothing irrational about looking for answers and seeking for the truth.

You essentially are playing the same game. Your conclusions that we are not looking at the evidence objectively is based on your own bias.

The objective facts are, based on the OP, that death occurred under mysterious circumstances.

I would say that unless there is strong evidence or proof either way that our SUSPICIONS are entirely rational and that there is nothing neurotic (although this term is no longer a valid one) or "mentally disordered" about such suspicions.

The DEATH was suspicious.

And we may never EVER really know the cause.

But there is NOTHING lacking in objectivity when we suspect the worst.

Blaming our suspicions on a mental or emotional disorder is a weak nonargument and, at worst, an insult to everyone who cares to find out the truth.

SURE we see what our biases lead us to see when we are looking for confirmation of our theories. But there is nothing irrational about having these theories.

And for you to say so is rude and uncalled for.

[Mystayya]

143. The death was not suspicious- he died of natural causes.

Sometimes people just die.

[SidDithers]

123. +1...

Who could have imagined? Someone gets killed in Washington, and he's someone with an important job?

Sid

[Mystayya]

132. I agree with you- this is nuts.

[laughingliberal]

64. And don't forget-just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you

Even paranoid people have some real enemies

[BREMPRO]

68. kick

[flyarm]

69. How about murder/intimidation and trying to shut up the rest at the ACLU?

How Canadian lawyer unearthed U.S. torture documents
Aug 30, 2009 04:30 AM
Iain Marlow
Staff Reporter
Read it at: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/688429


Jameel Jaffer, an American Civil Liberties Union lawyer born in London, Ont., was instrumental in filing and fighting an unlikely Freedom of Information Act request that eventually unearthed thousands of pages of secret documents which illustrated damning evidence of U.S. government complicity in violations of international humanitarian law.

"A lot of the documents describe abuses that are really horrific," he said in an interview. "It was hard to believe that these incidents had occurred in facilities run by the United States."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/30intel.html?_r=2

A.C.L.U. Lawyers Mine Documents for Truth

By SCOTT SHANE
Published: August 29, 2009

snip;

In May, Mr. Obama decided to fight the release of hundreds of photographs of abuse, saying they could encourage attacks on American troops abroad. It is the photo issue that the administration is taking to the Supreme Court.

The A.C.L.U.’s success has led some news organizations to take a new look at the potential of the Freedom of Information Act to expose government secrets. But the A.C.L.U. lawyers note that their effort has repeatedly fed off the work of investigative reporters who have identified cases of abuse, legal opinions and other documents that the organization then pursued in court.

Their lawsuit continues. On Monday, the government faces yet another court-imposed deadline to turn over more documents — including the 2001 presidential directive authorizing the secret prisons — or explain why they must be withheld.

[BREMPRO]

80. a timing coincidence that has to be considered.

My condolences to family and friends. He seemed like a great and principled man, who had courage to fight for what he believed in. I honored him by donating to the ACLU.

At risk is jumping to conclusions without full investigation, autopsy and evidence, we know about the utter hatred and demonizing of the ACLU by the wingnuts, right wing radio, and Republicans. The fact that these torture memos just surfaced that put in legal jeopardy powerful members of the former Bush administration (ie hit squad Cheney) has to be considered possible motive. His body was found in a "wooded area" floating face down in the water. Sure looks like homicide. Who would want to murder him?

1. random act of violence
2. personal unrelated to his work
3. lone wolf pro-life homophobic, anti-Semitic etc.. right wing nutcase
4. professional hit by ?- to intimidate ACLU

my bet is on 3 or 4.

[inna]

111. +1, nt

[Monk06]

76. Maybe the folks at www.stoptheaclu.com have some information they would like to share n/t

[glinda]

91. That is an interesting thought. That site is disgusting.

[Odin2005]

96. Ugh, what a disgusting site.

:puke:

[Enthusiast]

79. While we are distracted by

the news of Blackwater being engaged in foreign assassination plots we must now consider the possibility that these RE groups might be carrying on domestic acts of terrorism. I have a VERY low opinion of these RE organizations, covert or otherwise.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bertman]

86. I'm going to wait and see what the police report says before I go off. nt

[Stephanie]

89. Me too n/t

[anigbrowl]

110. Frankel's relatives part of murder conspiracy!!!!

Well, they must be. They say he died of natural causes, so it can't possibly be true.
http://www.philly.com/philly/obituaries/20090831_Larry_Frankel__54__civil_liberties_lobbyist_in_Pa_.html

[BREMPRO]

112. "natural causes"? at 54 years old?

"Yesterday, Chirls said that he accompanied Frankel's brothers to the D.C. Medical Examiner's Office to identify his body.

"We were told there were no signs of trauma or injury that would be consistent with a crime or a fall," Chirls said. "What they found was consistent with death from natural causes while out running."

The D.C. Medical Examiner's Office declined to comment.

Chirls said that Frankel was found 20 feet from a running trail in jogging clothes and - without offering specifics - that he had been experiencing medical symptoms the previous morning that were consistent with the preliminary finding.

So far, though, there is no indication as to how Frankel ended up in the water, Chirls said."


There is something that they are not revealing or not conclusive yet, we've not heard the whole story. Is a heart attack considered "natural causes"? Could he have been poisoned? We should wait for the autopsy and full police report.

[onenote]

130. yes, a heart attack is considered natural causes

[Mystayya]

144. Men of that age group dying of heart attacks is not an uncommon event.

[anigbrowl]

145. Sure, it happens all the time

I had an aunt that just fell over and died one day from a brain haemorrhage at about the same age. Heart attacks in the mid-50s aren't so unusual either. It's a tragic situation and difficult for everyone involved, but sometimes a medical condition carries someone away at short notice.

Certainly one shouldn't draw final conclusions until the autopsy comes out, but that doesn't seem to have stopped people deciding he was murdered upthread.

[Are_grits_groceries]

114. Oh, I have just jumped to conclusions again.

I jumped about why we were going to war with Iraq.

I jumped about Homeland Security alerts being used for the elections.

I jumped about our communications being picked up by the government.

I jumped about a lot of things that were later true.

I know my jumps have not been 100% correct.

But, DON'T tell me not to jump. DON'T tell me how silly I am not to wait for facts. If the American people had jumped about going to the war with Iraq, things might have been different.

[Liberation Angel]

118. The Nazis frequently said it was "natural causes" when they sent the remains home

from the death camps.

Heart failure was a frequent cause of death according to the nazis.

Fact is that heart failure was caused by poison. Injection of phenol directly into the heart.

Naturally the heart failed.

Frequently murder by such means as "heart failure" is accomplished in ways that leave little or no traces so it is truly impossible to tell without witnesses or complicated tests.

In other words we may never know whether there was foul play or not.

That does not mean those of us who fear murder are wrong. nor does that mean those who want PROOF will ever get it NOR will those who claim undo paranoia EVER back off of their criticism that we jump to conclusions when our leaders die under truly unknown circumstances.

fact is that WE CANNOT KNOW one way or the other.

There are undetectable substances which cause such deaths.

There are natural causes which cause one to drop dead while jogging (especially while one is under extreme stress).

It IS fair to say that even if his death was "natural" that the stress of a fascist society played a role in his death.

So in my estimation it is still murder.

Planned or not so planned.

He is dead.

And the treasonous jackbooted thugs that hijacked our nation are responsible.

Frankly the stress is killing millions of us every day.

[Liberation Angel]

119. This needs to be said: The OP says "mysterious circumstances"

when there is a mystery we look for answers.

We speculate.

Our fears and experience and intuition kick in.

We theorize.

As the facts trickle in we get perspective and clarity (maybe) or we get more questions.

In cases of mysterious deaths there are factors some of us can never know.

To assume either that it was murder or not are reasonable assumptions. They are "rule outs".

Even if it was heart failure it may not have been natural. Or it may have.

But the OP said the circumstances were "mysterious"

so speculation and theorizing (conspiracy or not) is perfectly reasonable.

He could very well have been a target. "Natural causes" is a favorite cover up for murder. Has been for aeons.

So petty people can bicker about our rational fears and dismiss them with cynicism and insults.

But that just shows how weak their arguments are. they cannot prove we are wrong.

and we are certainly not wrong to suspect, at least, the very worst.

Especially when one of our brightest stars is extinguished "under mysterious circumstances"

[Liberation Angel]

121. FDR: In Politics nothing happens by accident

In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/franklind164126.html

This is a rule to live by.

Death of a shining star of the progressive left an accident?

I doubt it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

134. If you follow that logic, you could blame Ted Kennedy's brain cancer on Karl Rove

[Liberation Angel]

136. sure I could

but I suspect the nuclear power plant in Plymouth Mass

which of course Rove helped to build and keep running... LOL

[onenote]

138. is that why the repubs gave FDR polio?

[Liberation Angel]

170. Who knows? But I suspect foul play in his death

his son in law wrote a book saying he believed he was murdered

and I would add that that was to preempt the prosecution of Prescott Bush and the Dulleses and Rockefellers (and Ford, GM and IBM) for aiding Hitler

[tomm2thumbs]

127. giving a quick kick up

[Mystayya]

129. I think alot of people are jumping to conclusions

It more then likely has nothing to do with his job. People not involved in criminal activity (drugs, gangs,organized crime, etc) are ~usually~ killed by family, friends or intimate partners. Murder for politics is much, much rarer so perhaps holding off on theories would be the best approach.

[Liberation Angel]

135. How can you jump to those conclusions?

How can you even begin to abandon theories?

or conclude it had nothing to with his job.

The death was mysterious and the autopsy results are not in and could be inconclusive.

More evidence is needed but theories never hurt

[onenote]

137. the claim that Frankel's death was "mysterious" came from the original blog post

not from any official sources.

[Mystayya]

139. people are stating it is assasination before even knowing how he died

He might have been, he might not have been. It has not even been ruled a murder yet.

[SidDithers]

141. In fact, the family has come out and said that it was "natural causes"...

which, of course, means that he was injected with some secret, undetectable toxin which made his murder look like natural causes.

Sid

[Mystayya]

142. I know, right? n/t

[anigbrowl]

147. You don't have a theory

Theories are related to some kind of evidence. What you're engaging in is speculation. When you come up with some evidence that is not consistent with the final explanation (eg someone is said to die of the flu, not the axe embedded in their chest) then you have some basis on which to form a theory.

The problem with your way of thinking is that it allows you to come up with a conspiracy/murder scenario for anything, based on your lack of knowledge. That's not theory, it's superstition.

[Liberation Angel]

172. There is plenty of evidence to suggest foul play and even murder

Death being the first piece of evidence.

"poisoning" being the second.

trauma to the face is the third

face down in water is the fourth.

I suppose you think death is natural when you have been poisoned and left face down in water.

Get a grip.

We cannot PROVE that yet but we are searching for MORE evidence to reach an objective conclusion.

Bt wen you have a corpse who complained of being poisoned, murder is a pretty sane possibility.

[Hannah Bell]

146. Doctors See Natural Causes & Exertion As Likely Death Causes

Submitted by RepMarkBCohen on Sun, 08/30/2009 - 11:04pm.

While reaching no final conclusions until all tests are in, doctors from the DC medical examiners office feel it likely that Larry died of a combination of exertion, heat exposure, asthma, and dehydration as a result of jogging through Rock Creek Park.

The doctors see no evidence of violence. Small bruises on his body are consistent with a fall.

Larry reported to work last Wednesday and left early, complaining of food poisoning.

My information comes from Shannon Duffy of the Legal Intelligencer, who posts Monday's story at http://www.law.com/jsp/pa/index.jsp. He will post a fuller story later in the week. To access more than the first page summaries, one has to either have a subscription to the Legal Intelligencer or take out a trial subscription.


http://youngphillypolitics.com/aclu_lobbyist_larry_frankel_found_dead_washington

[Freddie Stubbs]

150. Yes, but we know that most doctors are Republicans

;)

[BREMPRO]

154. I hope the autopsy is thorough and given he felt sick and complained about "food poisoning"

the day before, they should investigate the source of that food and his blood work to determine if it contributed to his death. This wouldn't be the first time someone has died of "natural causes" helped along by poison. Maybe it's nothing, just bacteria in a sandwich that made him feel like he had "food poisoning". likely it was just the combination of circumstances noted. But given his position, advocacy, and politics and the extreme opposition to the ACLU from the right wing, I would hope no stone is unturned.

[Odin2005]

156. See, I knew people were jumping to unjustified conclusions.

[SidDithers]

157. Kick for reason and sanity...nt

Sid

[bobthedrummer]

152. Our undeclared Civil War continues...

[onenote]

153. on one side of the war: death by natural causes

remind me again who is on the other side?

[conscious evolution]

160. No its not

Men in blue uniforms are not lined up and shooting at men in gray uniforms.
How can it be a civil war if men in blue and gray are not shooting at each other?

[conscious evolution]

161. No its not

Men in blue uniforms are not lined up and shooting at men in gray uniforms.
How can it be a civil war if men in blue and gray are not shooting at each other?

[Stephanie]

158. Obituary

http://www.philly.com/philly/obituaries/56301057.html

Larry Frankel, 54, civil liberties lobbyist in Pa.
By Matthew Spolar

Inquirer Staff Writer

Larry Frankel, who worked the halls of Harrisburg for 16 years as a civil liberties lobbyist, died Friday in Rock Creek Park in Washington. He was 54.

Relatives said he died of natural causes.

Mr. Frankel was legislative director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania from 1992 to 2008. He was also the organization's executive director from 1996 to 2001.

In March 2008, he took a job in Washington as state legislative counsel for the ACLU, but he kept his apartment in Philadelphia.

Mr. Frankel was well known at the state Capitol, where he worked to reform the state's Right to Know Law, defeat proposed state constitutional amendments to ban same-sex marriage, defend voting rights, and stop plans for school vouchers.

A native of Burbank, Calif., Mr. Frankel studied comparative literature at the University of California at Berkeley. He also attended the university's law school, where he met Andy Chirls, his longtime partner before their separation five months ago.

==snip==

Donations in Mr. Frankel's memory can be sent to the American Civil Liberties Foundation, Box 40008, Philadelphia 19106, or to the Fairmount Park Conservancy, 1617 JFK Blvd., Suite 1670, Philadelphia 19103.

Relatives plan to hold a funeral in California and a memorial service in Philadelphia but no dates have been set.

[Liberation Angel]

159. Jeez! "Poisoning"

Food poisoning

and the next day he is dead

Now the bloodwork is not in yet

His family is probably being told that it is natural causes

But "poisoning" is the opertive word.

I suspect foul play which is a reasonable suspicion.

You can dump on that all you want.

But if a progressive leader complained of any type of poisoning and then died, why would you not be suspicious?

All the facts are not in.

[raphaelle66]

162. i once saw a jogger dying from a heart attack

he fell right down on the path and never got up again. he didn't end up 20 feet away face down in a body of water. for all the people accusing skeptics of being paranoid or jumping to conclusions, please explain how the logistics of how this might happen - in a way that is not too farcical please!

[Liberation Angel]

167. Did that jogger complain of being poisoned the day BEFORE?

In THIS case we know that.

I have been involved in murder investigations and political assassination investigations (I actually lived with two persons who were victims or friends of victims of Cointelpro murders and had a relative who was also set up in one case by the shadow spooks).

These were in those heady days when political murders were blatant and the operations were dirty and transparent.

In THIS case he complained of feeling "poisoned" and thought it was food poisoning. Maybe it was poisoned food.

We do NOT have all the facts. And even a good poisoning may leave no traces.

So the questions remain. I can see a heart attack victim struggling to maybe get water (though that water is dirty) BUT a heart attack AND food poisoning AND facial trauma AND food poisoning.

It strains credulity to not suspect murder.

But if an assassin in a case like this wanted it to appear as an accident - that would not be hard to do either.

[raphaelle66]

174. heart attack in a public park in the middle of the day

most people would immediately start looking for help from other people around them. thirst is not the first need when you are having a heart attack. you are in too much pain to want to start drinking. and even if he was so dehydrated he rushed over to the water, how do you then end up drowning? wouldn't people in a public park notice someone thrashing around at the edges of the water. wouldn't the victim call out to them to call 911. reminds me of ex british mp Robin Cooke who also had a heart attack out walking on the moors - right after resigning over the iraq war...

[inna]

163. ANY updates/POGRESS with the investigation??

i had this thread bookmarked since i first heard about this horrible accident (crime?),

haven't found a peep or a tweet in the m$m so far.

[harry_pothead]

165. I wonder if he knew something about the Cheney administration.

[Liberation Angel]

171. Of course he did

his JOB was to get the Senate and Congress to ACT!