My 6 year old want to join the scouts

[Bill219]

He came home today with a flyer that he got at school and is all excited about it because his friends want to join too.

My wife I am are morally opposed to a lot of BSA's stances on certain topics and do not like that fact that he will be taking an oath of a belief in God when he does not and we had not planned on talking to him about religion until he was older.

I was wondering how other parents here have dealt with this issue

[Indydem]

1. There is no "oath" in a belief in God.

The scout promise mentions God.

I, (say your name), promise
to DO MY BEST
To do my DUTY to GOD
And my Country
To HELP other people, and
To OBEY the LAW of the Pack

Those who do not wish to say "God" do not have to.

[BlooInBloo]

5. (shrug) Looks like an oath to gawd to me.

[BuyingThyme]

7. So how is that oath to god not an oath to god again?

[BlooInBloo]

10. I think he had a "cocaine is a helluva drug" moment.

[el_bryanto]

34. The difference may between an oath to believe in God and an oath to do your duty to God

Although technically the latter might actually be more problematic. You don't need to promise to believe in God though, which i think was his point.

What do Hindu or Shinto or Pagan Boy Scouts say?

Bryant

[Arugula Latte]

39. So you have to promise to do your duty to something that you think doesn't exist?

That's kinda bizarre.

[el_bryanto]

50. Yeah - but the whole thing is at once removed anyway

Unless your Scout Pack is all the same denomination, there will be different ideas about what Duty to God Means.

Bryant

[Winterblues]

97. Scout Oath demands reverence..

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, curtious, kind cheerful, thrifty, clean and reverent. There is a couple more but I just don't remember them now.

[el_bryanto]

99. How do you define Reverence?

If you define it as requiring belief in God; problematic.

If you define it as showing respect, still problematic, since many Atheists feel a duty to take steps against religion when possible.

Bryant

[roody]

160. One can revere nature and life.

[damntexdem]

36. Well, if one does not believe in God, then an oath to do one's duty to God is a no-brainer.

There would be no duty owed, so doing it would be easy, even if one did nothing. ;-)

Now, let's get off the oath nonsense and get into what a child will be taught in scouting -- and whether parents want their child taught some of those things.

[BuyingThyme]

41. So the scout's duty would be to expose god as a fraud?

[ashling]

52. If you would read Indydems post you would see that

Those who do not wish to say "God" do not have to.

[BuyingThyme]

58. If you were to read Indydem's post you would see that

s/he says there's no such oath.

[demwing]

183. If you were to read Indydem's post you would see that

there was no oath "in a belief of God." Technically, that is correct. The oath was to do one's duty to God and country, and to leave out the God bit if so desired, and therefore, no oath to or about God at all.

[demwing]

182. Because you don't have to say the "Duty to God" bit?

I cant verify the accuracy, but that is what the poster stated, and you're pretending like he didn't clarify the post.

[we can do it]

62. and a Homophobic Organization as well

[Winterblues]

95. What does the Scout Oath say?

You quote the Scout Promise, but I seem to recall where the Oath says you promise to be reverent. What exactly does that mean to you?

[JVS]

110. "boy scout oath or promise"

http://www.macscouter.com/advance/boyscout/bsoathlaw.asp

You're thinking of the Law

[JVS]

109. "OBEY the LAW of the Pack"?

FUCK THAT SHIT!

[Maine-ah]

167. I was in GS...if I remember it correctly ours was

On my honor I will try
to serve god, my country, mankind
and to live by the Girl Scout law.

[iris27]

188. Sorry, IndyDem, but that's bullshit.

"Those who do not wish to say "God" do not have to."

They kick out atheist Scouts. http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2002/11/Atheist-Scout-Booted-From-Scouting.aspx

[Brickbat]

2. My son joined the Scouts; my partner was an Eagle Scout. We live up in rural MN and the Boy Scouts

do a lot of camping (winter and summer) and outdoor safety/survival stuff. It's an excellent program.

The Cub Scouts here are run by a Baptist church. We are not religious but let our son join anyway. We have long had discussions about what God means to different people and in our house, "God" means "conscience." He is now 10 and understands the difference and is comfortable talking about his "duty to God" and not feeling like he is betraying himself or the organization.

I object strongly to the BSA's stance on gay people. Fortunately, the locals who run it here (with the exception of the Cub Scout org.) strongly reflect our population -- very tolerant and Democrats. So it depends on the pack, IME.

[PassingFair]

120. They'll strip him of his Eagle Scout level...

Remember Darrell Lambert?

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lambert.html

Also, troop leaders MUST profess a belief in god,
so good luck on his having a lifelong relationship
with the BSA.

:puke:

I feel badly for your kid, I had girls, so I never
had to deal with the cubscout/boyscout discrimination
thing. The probably want to join the same group as their
friends...

:cry:

I would tell my kid to just pay lip-service to their
supernatural requirements, most kids leave at some point
anyway.

:hi:

[Brickbat]

147. Strip whom of his Eagle Scout level? My partner? He's not a scout leader at all. I threw that in

there to illustrate our background with scouting.

I don't necessarily want a lifelong relationship with the BSA. For all I know, my son will decide he does believe in God -- and for all I know, maybe he does now. It's not really up to me. He's free to be as involved or not in the BSA as he gets older.

I guess I appreciate you feeling bad for my kid, but there's no reason to. The majority of his close friends aren't in Scouts, so it's not like he "wants to join the same group"; if anything, the peer pressure for him to get involved came from my partner, who had such an excellent experience with Scouting and was excited for his son to have the same thing.

:puke: :cry: :hi: :shrug:

[PassingFair]

148. "maybe he does"

They will require him to vocalize an "oath" that
he DOES.

My two daughters have been raised without
religious beliefs, and it has not presented
any problems, because they are not required
to say "under god" in the pledge, et. al.

I don't know WHAT I would have told my child
if it was a boy, and he wanted to be a boyscout..

I would hate for him to have to lie to join,
my kids went to Bible School when they wanted to,
but they never were required to take "oaths" or
pledges to supernatural beings.

Did you read the article at the link?

[Brickbat]

151. I did read the article at the link.

And honestly, I can't figure out if your concern for my son stems from the fact that he might have to stop doing something he likes someday because he might not ever believe in God, or that you think I should take him out now because he might be kicked out later if he doesn't ever believe in God, or that he might be lying now, or what.

Believe me, we have thought this all through and talked about it with him.

[PassingFair]

153. It is about letting him join an organization that rejects atheists, agnostics and gay people.

What they did to Darrel Lambert was not right.

I wouldn't want it to happen to my kid.

That's all....

[Brickbat]

164. I see what you're saying.

I've decided that the enjoyment my son gets out of Scouts outweighs the chance of something like that happening to him. And if it does, we'll all deal with that if it happens.

[PassingFair]

172. I think I'd make the same choice if I had a son who REALLY wanted to join.

But I wouldn't have suggested it!

[Brickbat]

184. :) nt

[Sapphocrat]

180. So as long as your son doesn't turn out to be an atheist, agnostic, or gay, it's all good, right?

And if he does, then you'll deal with the fallout of a youth spent in self-loathing as a closet atheist, agnostic, and/or gay man... how, exactly?

Never mind that even if he turns out "normal" -- a good, God-fearing heterosexual -- that he and you, will be supporting, enabling, promoting, and representing institutionalized bigotry... right?

By the way, has anyone mentioned the chokehold the Mormon church has on the BSA? Or have you decided that the enjoyment your son gets out of Scouts outweighs the chance that you won't be allowed to attend his members-only temple wedding?

[Brickbat]

181. Hyperbole much?

The people running the Scout troop are my friends and neighbors. I help out at meetings. If he spends his youth "in self-loathing as a closet atheist, agnostic, and/or gay man," it will not be because of the pack.

I hope you're not representing "good, God-fearing and heterosexual" as my version of "normal."

And hee, "members-only temple wedding." Good one!

[Sapphocrat]

189. Glad to know I struck a nerve. n/t

[Brickbat]

192. More like a funny bone.

I mean, seriously, temple wedding. Bwaaa!

[supernova]

3. Is there an alternative group?

I know spiral scouts are for children of primarily Wiccan families, but they are open to everyone.

I hope others will chime in with other groups.

http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/45487.shtml

[eShirl]

77. campfire is another good one

http://www.campfireusa.org/

Mission / Core Values

Camp Fire USA builds caring, confident youth and future leaders.

We employ 12 core values that guide the development of programs and the organization as a whole:
1. We believe that children and youth are our most precious resources.

2. We believe in an approach to youth development that builds assets and empowers individuals.

3. We believe that the best youth development occurs in small groups where children and youth are actively involved in creating their own learning.

4. We are committed to coeducation, providing opportunities for boys, girls and families to develop together.

5. We provide caring, trained mentors to work with children and youth.

6. We are inclusive, welcoming children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity.

7. We believe in the power of nature to awaken a child's senses, curiosity, and desire to learn.

8. We foster leadership, engaging children and youth to give service and make decisions in a democratic society.

9. We provide safe, fun and nurturing environments for children and youth.

10. We enrich parents' and other adults' lives by expanding their skills and encouraging them to share their talents and build relationships with children and youth

11. We respond to community needs with our programs and expertise.

12. We advocate on behalf of children, youth and families.

[Oregone]

4. Make him watch Arlington Road

Lie to him an tell him that all scout troupes are breeding grounds for terrorist activity (not to mention, pedophilia).

Then, be truthful and remind him that pictures in his scout uniform will greatly embarrass him in the future. Especially if he stays in it in high school and goes for Eagle.

You may want to weigh letting him know that the number of years in BSA is inversely correlated with their chance to get laid.

[subcomhd]

88. That was really funny. nt

[Soylent Brice]

161. ...

[tularetom]

6. Let him do it - if you've raised him well, he'll get tired of the bullshit and drop out

after six months.

But keep an eye on the adults who are running the thing. There's something more than a little creepy about the boy scout movement.

[walldude]

124. +1 That's exactly what I did and that is exactly what happened

I have 3 boys and they all tried it and all quit after a month or two. They figured out that the type of kid who goes to scouts is the type of kid they avoid being friends with anyway.

[Critters2]

8. Encourage him to join Camp Fire.

www.campfireusa.org

Mission / Core Values

Camp Fire USA builds caring, confident youth and future leaders.

We employ 12 core values that guide the development of programs and the organization as a whole:
1. We believe that children and youth are our most precious resources.

2. We believe in an approach to youth development that builds assets and empowers individuals.

3. We believe that the best youth development occurs in small groups where children and youth are actively involved in creating their own learning.

4. We are committed to coeducation, providing opportunities for boys, girls and families to develop together.

5. We provide caring, trained mentors to work with children and youth.

6. We are inclusive, welcoming children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity.

7. We believe in the power of nature to awaken a child's senses, curiosity, and desire to learn.

8. We foster leadership, engaging children and youth to give service and make decisions in a democratic society.

9. We provide safe, fun and nurturing environments for children and youth.

10. We enrich parents' and other adults' lives by expanding their skills and encouraging them to share their talents and build relationships with children and youth

11. We respond to community needs with our programs and expertise.

12. We advocate on behalf of children, youth and families.

[Bill219]

68. Campfireusa sounds great

But they are not here in NC

[Critters2]

70. There's a campaign to expand. If you contact the national org,

they'll help you set up a group.

[Critters2]

74. Consider 4-H.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/index.php?page=youth4h

[tularetom]

129. I could tell you stories about 4-H

Like how my daughter's 4-H project ended up with us having a flock of sheep, me out in the garage delivering lambs at 3 in the morning, sitting out in the field all night with a rifle across my legs waiting for the coyotes who killed 2 of our lambs to come back, and best of all - selling the whole shiteroo to a REAL sheep farmer for less than we paid for them.

Actually it's a good organization. My kid just got a bit carried away and we let it happen.

[eShirl]

78. oops, didn't see your post before I replied above. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

92. I thought that was for girls?

[Critters2]

135. Boys and girls nt

[T Wolf]

9. IF you let him join a bigoted group, he will be subject to their bigotry. That is a decision YOU

need to make for him.

Even though he is young, it is not too early to educate him about the world - and the reality that there are people who think and do bad things.

He will get a lot of grief, as you will as well, IF you keep him out. His "friends" and their parents will attack him and you for daring to question "an Amerikan institution." You must be prepared for that.

It would also be helpful if you can show him that the two of you will be able to do many of the "fun" things the scouts do. Face it - that is the appeal for young boys - the outdoors and entertaining activities. You have to weigh the benefit of those activities against the hatred he will be taught as a member of that group.

It is always problematic when we go against the "usual" - especially a sacred cow like the BSA.

Good luck.

[Dollface]

19. Depends on the people running the troop. My cousin is an Eagle Scout and a godless liberal.

He does support social justice and all that liberal lefty stuff and if I were ever lost in the woods I would so want him around.

[zonkers]

11. It's a good experience taken with a grain of salt of course. You learn

some cool stuff -- outdoorsy stuff, civic mindedness. My friend's kids do it. They seem to enjoy it. They do clean ups and go camping with the dads in the state park. Its a nice alternative to playstation, IMO. And hey, wasn't Jimmy Carter a boyscout?

[Critters2]

38. Homophobia=civic-mindedness. Interesting.

What other openly discriminatory organizations should we join because we might enjoy them?

[zonkers]

61. Fair enough. I was not very familar with their rigid principles. I officially retract my endorse-

ment of the scouts but I do value many of the skill sets they encourage kids to develop.

[DevonRex]

12. You cannot allow him to join a group that you are morally opposed to.

End of discussion about that.

[cyberswede]

13. I leave out all the god stuff in our den

My son is in 3rd grade and has been in scouts since 1st grade. He likes it a lot.

I'm the "den leader," and I just skip everything having to do with god & religion. I told the other parents that all the scouts will get the religious activities checked off in their handbook automatically, and that families can approach those topics as they see fit (which means completely ignoring them at my house).

Though I have some problems with the BSA also, the activities the boys can participate in are a lot of fun for my son (day camp with bow & arrow, woodworking, etc), and I don't think he could get those experiences elsewhere around here.

You might consider letting your son join to see how it goes - just let the den leader know how you feel about the religion/god stuff (or volunteer to help at the meetings, where you can see first-hand what is being presented).

[Critters2]

16. So you're teaching children to be dishonest.

Is is really so important to be in scouts that it's worth going against your own values? Or is honesty not a value you hold? Why not work with another group? What makes scouts so important?

[endarkenment]

14. Me too when I was six and my mother and father

said, 'well no we think that is not such a good idea' and offered to send me to art classes instead, which I did and for which I am eternally grateful. Sometimes parents just have to say no. From my parents perspective I might as well have come home from school and announced that I wanted to join the local Hitler Youth chapter. I soon shared that perspective.

[Arugula Latte]

15. We were in the same situation six years ago -- we started our own group.

It was pretty easy to find people who were turned off by the scouts but wanted something for their kids (we live in Portland, Ore.) We had boys who had gay parents, boys whose parents were atheists (like us), boys whose families just didn't buy into the whole rightwing slant of the scouts. The group lasted about five years -- we did a lot of fun and educational outings and community service, things like hiking in the forest, working in the food bank, attending a science fair, getting gifts for a needy family at the holidays, roller skating, berry picking, bike rides on wilderness trails, etc. Every summer we marched in a local parade. Good times.

:hi:

edited to say: Please feel free to PM me if you'd like more details.

[Critters2]

20. There's already an inclusive group out there. I'm active in a Camp Fire alumni group,

which sometimes does activities with current Camp Fire groups. I'm proud of the way Camp Fire has taken clear stands to counter the discrimination in Scouting.

[Arugula Latte]

48. Camp Fire is good, and we looked into it.

It is co-ed, which is great, but I also think there is a time and place for single-gender groups. I liked being in girls' only groups as a child, and my son enjoyed a boys only group. He had plenty of co-ed interaction in school and sports, etc., so this was just a different experience.

[Critters2]

51. I'm just stunned by how progressives can shrug off homophobia. nt

[Arugula Latte]

59. Yep. It was heartening that when we started our own group many of the parents

were straight people who didn't want to support homophobia. But, we do live in a liberal paradise bubble.

[BuyingThyme]

17. I was a scout for the better part of a couple weeks.

The political stuff never had a chance to leave an impression on me, but then again nothing ever does.

I joined because I wanted to go fishing and hiking. But I found the scouts to be more of a weekly costume party. Kids like costumes. What're ya gonna do?

[bigwillq]

18. If he wants to do it, let him.

At least, I would, even though I disagree with a lot of their policies as well. He will figure out on his own later in life whether or not the group is something he still believes in, and something that he wants to continue to be apart of.

[Bill219]

21. My 6 year old want to join the scouts

He came home today with a flyer that he got at school and is all excited about it because his friends want to join too.

My wife I am are morally opposed to a lot of BSA's stances on certain topics and do not like that fact that he will be taking an oath of a belief in God when he does not and we had not planned on talking to him about religion until he was older.

I was wondering how other parents here have dealt with this issue

[seabeyond]

22. my kids have been thrown into differing views from day one and have had to deal

with being by far the minority as in only ones, who believe differently.

was a scary thing. i embrace totally. they have to remain respectful and always expected they allow to express differing views, respectfully. from the youngest of age.

now they are older and i love that they had the experience all this time. makes them so much more. it gives ample opportunity in learning, practicing respect of fellow man and expressing differing views.

did boyscouts for a handful of years til we had enough and walked. but there were good things about it too.

[BlooInBloo]

23. That's tough - at that age, he's not going to appreciate the "moral stance"...

He's only going to see that his parents suck because they won't let him have fun with his friends like all the other boys get to do.

[berni_mccoy]

24. While scouts does not force your son to be religious, you may be uncomfortable

with some of their practices.

Both my boys have gone through cub scouts. My oldest is a boy scout. It's a great experience for them to become independent and self sufficient and build a good character. But if you do not practice a religion, you may be uncomfortable from time to time and each troop / patrol are different. Some local scouts organizations are sponsored by churches. It really depends on where you live and what you believe. That being said, it's more about spirituality than religion, but participation in a religion is encouraged.

The oath begins, "I will do my best to do my duty to God..." this means the particular God you believe in. This will be said at almost every meeting, along with the the Pledge of Allegiance, which also mentions God.

If you have difficulty with that, it may not be the place for your son.

[Viking12]

25. I had the same visceral reaction when my son joined 2 years ago.

My son is really attracted to the activities and wanted to hang out with his friends. Even though our Pack meets in a church (a gay friendly church, however, The United Church of Christ) the religious aspects aren't really at the forefront of the experience. I don't think that the God stuff is even on my son's radar. I realize this varies from pack-2-pack.

Even as he gets older and wiser about such matters, I'm confident in my abilities as a parent to get him to think about such things critically and not buy into it blindly. For my part, however, I refuse to become involved in any official capacity for obvious political reasons. I help out at meetings and activities, but I won't take the "oath" nor will I wear a uniform or donate money beyond what I deem as necessary for pack activities.

My 2 cents.

[stray cat]

40. It hasn't ruined your child yet?

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

60. I'm disappointed to learn of a UCC sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop.

We don't specifically because scouting clashes with our stated values and faith. We do sponsor a Girl SCout Troop, but Girl Scouts has an anti-discrimination policy. We're looking into starting a Camp Fire group, so that boys can participate in a non-discriminatory group.

[Viking12]

108. There's something to be said about creating opportunites for change from within

I think that Scouting is a worthy endeavor despite its shortcomings. The emphasis on civic culture and self-reliance are admirable. If more independent minded people participate, the more likely that, someday, BSA will move away from its bigoted history.

Again, there is usually a great deal of autonomy for the individual Packs and Troops and the totality of BSA policies are not necessarily reflected in every one.

[Critters2]

134. The two largest contributors to BSA are the Mormon Church and the Methodist Church.

Both bastions of glbt hatred.

[Viking12]

140. ...and?? you've completely ignored the point I made about influenceing change

Besides, the organizations you cite have zero influence on the views to which my son is exposed through scouts.

[Critters2]

141. Why would anyone feel a need to change the Boy SCouts?

Better they should simply go the way of the do-do. The Boy Scouts are not necessary. But, as long as progressives keep supporting them, they'll be free to teach their intolerance.

[BoneDaddy]

26. I plan on having my sons

join the scouts for all of the overwhelming positive things about it. I will, like others have mentioned, have discussions about what is being declared and my wife and my stance on the subjects.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[wicket]

28. Well said

I was a girl scout and loved it - though we were allowed to replace "God" with anything representing our spirituality.

[BoneDaddy]

86. Thanks

I tend to take a Buddhist take on this topic in not indoctrinating children into any belief system but rather lead them into eventually having a deeper understanding of things.

[Bill McBlueState]

118. Girl Scouts are different

see post 60.

[Rambis]

27. We run the troop

told all parents the god shite is out- If they want to do it at home that is where we think it should be discussed.

[enlightenment]

29. There are alternative organizations that may have chapters in your community.

Boys and Girls Clubs of America - www.bgca.org
National 4-H Council - www.fourhcouncil.edu
Camp Fire Boys and Girls - www.campfire.org
Center for Youth as Resources - www.yar.org

[yawnmaster]

30. My experience is that all troops are different...

your son will be dealing with them 99% of the time.
Visit the different troops in your area.
Go to a scouting event where there are many troops and you'll see a large diversity.
Some are almost run like the military - all the same tents line up in a row...boys jumping to attention, all dressed perfectly...
then there are the laid-back troops, all different tents, boys in shorts, jeans, etc..
Which is better? depends on you and your son (I liked the relaxed troop, personally - not anarchy...just focused, in my opinion, on the right things

Again, visit a few meetings and see if the adult leaders, and the boy leaders share enough of your beliefs that you would feel comfortable with your son being there (also, you can get involved to as high a level as you want).

[Arugula Latte]

33. But. even if individual troops are cool, by joining scouts you're still supporting the organization

And the official organization is anti-gay and forces the god thing. Letting our son join was not an option for us. By forming our own group we taught him that you don't have to just go along with what has come before -- you can make your own way.

Just my 2 cents, not everyone will agree.

[yawnmaster]

55. Somewhere upthread it was stated...

"throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
I feel that the opportunities for my child far outweighed any minor support the national organization would get.
By far, the majority of the support given went to the local troop.

For me this worked, and as you say, it may not work for all.

[Critters2]

142. What if your son discovers he's gay?

How will you explain your support for a group that hates him?

[yawnmaster]

166. wouldn't be a problem at all...

I support my son in the organization and no one in the troop hates him.
If someone in the troop were to show hate, not just to him but to anyone, and for any reason, we would deal with it.

In other words, my support is at the local level, and he understands that.

[Junkdrawer]

31. Cub Scouts was pretty harmless and he enjoyed it...

By the time he was old enough for Boy Scouts, he had other interests.

[angrychair]

130. I am shocked at some of the responses

here about the scouting program. I have been associated with both cub scouting and boy scouting for several years and have nothing but positive things to say about it. I have NEVER experienced ANY homophobia or religious indoctrination of ANY sort. While there may be a focus on a god of some sort in BSA it has NEVER been the focus on anything I have ever done since I have been part of scouting. Our focus has always been on the children and helping them become strong, intelligent and caring members of society with a strong focus on the environment. I understand why people feel the need to lash out at BSA but you get out of scouting what you put into it. If you don't like something going on in scouting, the only way to change it is to become part of it. Why people are not perfect and there may be some bad apples in scouting, I have enjoyed my experience with them so far and I still have several more years to go. Thanks and if you have any more questions please feel free to ask.

[TCJ70]

32. I would meet with the troop leaders...

...and get some perspective on who they are and what they have in mind as the goals of the troop.

[Posteritatis]

47. This is the single most useful response in this entire thread. (nt)

[TCJ70]

56. Thank you. n/t

[petronius]

169. Yes, every troop is different. I was in BSA 20+ years ago and it was a very positive

experience - I trace most of my love of the outdoors and environmental ethic back to it. However, my troop pretty much ignored all of the 'moral' trappings of the national organization.

There were other troops in the area (one in particular sponsored by and LDS church) that took a very different approach, and I suspect the kids in those troops had a very different experience from me - an experience that I wouldn't have wanted and wouldn't want for my kid...

[earth mom]

35. I would not let my kid join the scouts for all the money in the world.

I can not stand the way they push religion among other things-all negative.

If you are as morally/ethically opposed as you say you are there should not be a question.

There are plenty of other things your kid can be involved in that do not try to control his mind.

[yawnmaster]

44. you are only seeing scouts at the national level...

when it comes down to it, the kid will only be involved in the local troop, and they are all different.

and really...for ALL the money in the world??

[earth mom]

65. Yep-I am not materialistic. nt

[apnu]

79. I was in Scouts (cub and above) for most of my childhood in three different states...

... nobody every pushed religion on me. No Den Leaders, Pack Leaders, Scout Masters, Patrol Leaders or Senior Patrol Leaders. or any other scout or parent. Not once. In fact, all the Cub Scout Packs I went to were in churches and nobody said or did boo about God. And I'm an atheist.

The only time anything was suggested to me was astronomy. This Scout Master took me on a night hike so we could star gaze, he talked about the myths behind the stars, told a very entertaining version of Ursa Major and Minor then we discussed what stars are made of and he blew my mind, to me, a 14 year old, learning that everything in the Universe is actually some kind of dust, including myself, was life altering.

As other people said. Scouting is really a quality of the local community and not a national thing. There are bad eggs in there, just like all groups of people. We here on DU have many bad eggs, does that mean we should hold all of DU responsible because of a few PUMAs and Freeptards hanging about?

[earth mom]

82. It's easier to just say no to a kid from the get go than try and get him out of the group later.

Kids at that age don't understand politics so why subject them to that in the first place?

Here on DU we can tell the freepers to fuck off, but kids need to be protected since there is a war going on for all our kids minds just in case you didn't know by now.

[apnu]

96. That's why Cub Scouts encourages parent participation.

and the OP was talking, specifically, about Cub Scouts. The kids are so young, most parents want to be there to keep an eye on them. Furthermore, there were no politics or culture wars in the Packs I belonged to. Nobody every got into an argument or pulled me aside to moralize. Believe me, my mother would have yanked me out in a second were that the case. My point is, scouting is only as good or bad as the community that it exists in. If you live in a discriminatory community, then the scouting program is going to be discriminatory also. If you live in a very liberal community, then your troops will be very liberal. That's what scouting is, a reflection of the community.

You can always pull your kid out of a troop or pack and put them in another one.

[earth mom]

101. All you need is one rethug fundie to ruin the entire thing. That's why I say why bother?

p.s. Why are you working so hard to convince me?

We disagree. End of story.

[apnu]

106. It seems like you're giving Scouting a bad rap based off a pre-concived notion

Plus were a rethug fundie to show up and "ruin the thing" the parents would kick his ass out fast. One thing I've learned as a new parent, folks don't like people messing with their kids. So when an asshat like that showed up, the status quo of the Pack (or Troop) would tighten up and boot the asshole. Same same is true if the Troop is already a bunch of assholes, and someone tries to buck that system... well you get the idea.

What I'm saying is this: don't judge all of Scouting because of a few isolated problems and a heap of hysterical bad press from the M$M. If your kids are interested, check out your local scouting operation and make your own decision. If your spider-sense starts to tingle then bail, if not, let your kids be happy and enjoy the experience with them. 'Cuz that's the point in Cub Scouts.

I'm just trying to share my experiences and let people know that Scouting isn't just some fundie recruitment drive, which seems to be the prevailing opinion around DU. They have fundie Jesus Camps where that sort of thing happens, they are very easy to find, but the BSA isn't one of them.

We do disagree, and I'm cool with that, you are entitled to your opinion, if, after my story, you choose to still see Scouting as some evil thing, that's your choice.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

137. All it takes is for one rethug fundie to show up at ANYTHING

....to TRY and ruin it. Are you going to keep the kids away from Little League baseball, the YMCA, etc.....?

Stop letting them set the agenda and control your fear.

[stray cat]

37. So you protect the child from any beliefs other than your own

just like we claim the right indoctrinates children.

[Arugula Latte]

42. By joining the scouts, you are supporting an anti-gay group.

By not joining, and exploring alternatives, you are showing your child you don't have to go along with beliefs you find immoral.

That is a powerful lesson, and one we taught our son.

[DevonRex]

53. I agree completely. nt

[Toasterlad]

104. Doesn't the Parent Have a Responsibility to Raise a Good Child?

Would it be okay for a man to let his son join the youth chapter of the KKK, provided they did cool woodworking and boat stuff? Or is preaching out against homosexuality not an important enough line in the sand for you?

[endarkenment]

143. we all indonctrinate our children.

It is called 'parenting'.

[qb]

43. My son is an atheist, and I'm a gay atheist.

His mother signed him up for cub scouts in a pack that supposedly doesn't subscribe to the bigotry of the national organization. I'm going to the new parents night to check it out.

[Critters2]

46. It IS the national organization. It's a chapter of the whole org.

Why are progressives supporting such hatred? There are other groups out there.

[Speck Tater]

45. You should definitely let intolerance of religion motivate you to scar your son for life.

Or maybe it would be a good chance for him to see that it IS possible to coexist with people of other beliefs. Your call.

Myself, I'm an atheist and was a scout and a scout leader when my atheist son was a scout. Some people might say that makes me a hypocrite. I prefer to think it makes me somebody who is tolerant enough to peacefully participate in my community without making every little thing into a big and pointless righteous confrontation about my beliefs.

Be a part of your community, or be a confrontational asshole. It's up to you. Really, what you believe in the privacy of your own heart is not a big deal unless you make it a big deal, and what, really, is the point of that?

[Critters2]

49. How does belonging to a blatantly homophobic org teach tolerance?

I find that confusing.

[JANdad]

69. I think you have made your point

abundantly clear here...

[Arugula Latte]

54. The national organization is anti-gay, and there is no getting around that.

I would never support that or condone that. There are alternatives.

By calling someone a "confrontational asshole" for not being willing to support a discriminatory organization, YOU are being a confrontational asshole yourself. Look in the mirror. You can give the whole song and dance about individual troops being tolerant, etc., but that doesn't disguise the fact you are supporting an anti-gay organization.

[Jokerman]

63. It's the scouting organization that preaches intolerance.

Sounds like you're the one being the confrontational asshole.

[Toasterlad]

105. Absolutely. After He's Done With the Scouts Meeting, You Can Take Him to a Klan Rally

You know, to expose him to those "other beliefs" you're so eager to coexist with.

[Winterblues]

150. Al Gore was an Eagle Scout

Do you suggest he was also a Klan Member?

[Toasterlad]

152. I'm Suggesting That Any Current or Former Scout Is/Was a Member of a Hate Group

Care to explain how they are not?

[endarkenment]

144. It's upside down world

"Be a part of your community, or be a confrontational asshole" - wow. If you don't send your kid off to be indoctrinated in religious rightwing homophiobic bigotry, you are an asshole? Just wow.

[SteppingRazor]

57. I'm an Eagle Scout, and my experience...

was that the overarching, national BSA took a pretty hands off approach. There's just so many troops out there, it'd be impossible to make sure everyone goes by the exact same standards. As a result, just how religious/homophobic/what have you the scouts may be varies greatly from troop to troop.

I had a lot of fun in the Scouts overall, learned a lot of things I wouldn't have otherwise, got my Eagle (with a ton of pushing from my Dad), and came through it all with the nonreligious yet (I like to think) morally sound mind I have today.

If you want your kid in scouts, check out the troop he wants to join, ask questions of the scoutmaster, and go from there.

[Critters2]

66. How fortunate for you that you're straight (or closeted). If you were gay and out

you would not have been allowed to be an Eagle Scout. What a great organization!

[SteppingRazor]

85. I certainly don't agree with the BSA's views on gay rights...

indeed, I don't really agree with a lot of what the BSA has to say vis-a-vis religion and morality. But neither do I think its official views bear much similarity to personal scouting experiences. I'm really the last one to try to defend the organization -- I think its views on gay rights are simply indefensible -- but neither can I dismiss the positive experiences I had. Too, I think it's a bit silly to characterize it as a "hate group," placing it in the same category as, say, the KKK. By that rationale, we should all be condemning Ted Kennedy for being a happy, lifelong member of that notoriously anti-gay, anti-abortion group, the Roman Catholic Church.

[GreenPartyVoter]

125. Blame the Methodist church. They chartered and still support the organization.

[Critters2]

133. I do blame the Methodist Church.

The United Methodist Church does more than almost anyone to normalize hatred of gay people. Their position on glbt issues is EXACTLY the same as the Southern Baptist Church or the Mormons, BUT the Methodists do it while claiming to be liberals. Their message is that you can hate glbt people and feel just fine about yourself. :puke:

[Cid_B]

111. I would say that...

the qualities I like most about myself were developed in the Scouts.

-A sense of duty and service

-Independence

-Leadership / Followership

-Loyalty

-The ability to call upon aggression or control it as needed

-The list goes on...

If you are concerned about the religious aspects there is a troop out there for you. I was a Cub and a Boy Scout in Utah. The bastion of the modern scouting movement. My family found a troop that fit our personality in the midst of the rather more excluding Mormon troops. That experience got me through some tough developmental times.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WI_DEM]

67. let him make up his own mind.

[JuniperLea]

71. This Godless Liberal was Cubmaster...

I never saw a problem, or had a problem. It is completely dependant upon the leaders.

[ampad]

72. My son wanted to join the scouts

He was seven at the time. I told him no but not without an explanation. I found that the talk about the scouts was a good lead in to talking about discrimination. Considering that my son is bi-racial I knew that it was a matter of time before he felt discrimination first hand. I talked to him about gay people and how the scouts discriminated against them. I know that he did not fully understand at that moment, however, after a few years he began to understand. I think you should try to explain to your son why you feel the way you do. Understand that he might be upset at first. He may not understand right away but as he gets older he will understand. You can also start your own boy scouts. Take him camping, teach him the fundamentals of the boys scouts. You can do this as a family.

[Cheap_Trick]

73. Use Lewis Black's solution to the "Pledge of Allegiance"

Have your child substitute DOG for god. It's the same amount of syllables and they end at the same time.

[Critters2]

75. And how do you deal with the homphobia? nt

[DevonRex]

87. That's my question, too. I can imagine a boy having invested a lot of time

and energy to scouting, only to realize he's gay and that the organization doesn't "approve." That would be a terrible experience for him - right at the time in life when he doesn't need anybody putting him down.

Maybe each troop is different. I don't know. But do they all have to send money to the national organization? If so, then that money would be in support of homophobia.

I understand that lots of people have been in scouting and the subject never came up and that their kids did great and it was a good experience for them. And I applaud those who took matters into their own hands and led troops of their own so that the kids were taught the good part and not the bad. But still, the monetary support would bother me IF each troop has to support the national organization.

Hell. Why can't the damned thing just leave that completely OUT of the mix? Why did they have to do that? I'm gonna shut up now because it's making me kinda pissed.

[Cheap_Trick]

115. Simple. I don't join the scouts.

I was merely offering a solution to the "god" thing.

Nothing more, nothing less.


Leave it at that.

[roody]

162. Besides, so many of us ARE under Dog.

[Xithras]

76. I was a Cubmaster, and am today an ASM

The important thing to remember is that there are NO employees in a Cub Scout pack or a BSA Troop. From badge counselors to Cub/Scoutmasters, everyone is an unpaid volunteer. As such, the particular pack or troop will reflect the morals and ethics of the parents who are running it.

Aside from the Mormon-run groups (which should always be avoided, because they're thinly disguised recruitment programs), I have yet to personally see a pack or troop espouse anything even remotely discriminatory. My sons Cub Scout pack was half hispanic, and easily a third of the kids had never set foot in a church in their lives. Religion, while still a part of the standard oath, is never brought into the meetings.

The problem with the BSA today is that the Mormon troops are a major funding source for the BSA, and they have threatened to split their troops and packs off into a new organization if the BSA ever backs off its official anti-gay stance. That move would cost the BSA about half of its members. The national board has continually caved to this threat. At the same time, there is no enforcement of those policies among the non-Mormon groups.

Go to the parent night, find out who's running it, and see if you can visit with your son for a meeting. If it looks acceptable to you, let him join. If not, don't. My son loves beiong a scout...and contrary to some suggestions above, he has no social problems as a result. Quite the opposite really. The scouts emphasize the development of cooperative and leadership abilities, and were pushing environmentalism on the boys long before environmentalism was cool.

[DevonRex]

83. But do the troops have to pay dues to the organization? That's the

part that would bother me, if so. It's not the God stuff, it's the homophobic stuff that's the crux of the matter for me. Athiests have long had to deal with the God business and most have found ways to handle it. But what if a teen realizes he's gay and that the Boy Scouts is homophobic as an organization? How would that teen feel? And would the Scouts allow him to continue in the organization if he came out?

[Xithras]

113. Depends on the troop.

Boys do pay dues, but only a tiny portion goes to the national organization. Most of the dues goes to the local council to pay insurance costs, and to pay a couple of council level employees (a council covers a large region, and usually includes hundreds of troops and packs, so they do need secreataries to keep the paperwork straight). It's true that a portion of those dues do go to national, but it isn't much. Morally, I balance the roughly $2 that BSA national made off my son and I last year against the roughly $150 I donated to our local GLSEN chapter, and the $50 I donated to the Stanislaus Pride Center.

As for the second part of your question, it again comes back to the particular troop. My sons troop would never ask a gay boy to leave, and the Scoutmaster would actively intervene if he found out that any of the boys were harassing another. He's a fairly conservative guy, but he has no tolerance for bigots or harassment.

[IdaBriggs]

80. It is a "troop" thing - if you have whackos running the local troop,

then the kids are going to hate it. I suggest you volunteer so your kid can get what he wants out of it. Most likely it will be a lot of running around in the woods, learning to make knots, camping/hiking, canoing, kayaking, campfires, etc.

The national organization is headquartered out of Texas, and a few years ago they became total idiots. They are generally ignored by everybody who is sane.

My father-in-law is very active, and his troop (he is one of the major volunteers, but not "the leader") has over a hundred boys. The group has been wonderful in helping young boys become responsible young men. He has commented that a lot of young boys from single parent (women led) homes really get a lot out of "the male bonding" thing, especially when they respect the (male) volunteers.

My husband and brother-in-law both made Eagle. Both are liberals. (Their father is a conservative, but one of the nicest men you'll ever meet -- we don't talk politics! LOL!)

If your son has an interest, indulge it. Volunteer to help out, and learn the joys of making a wooden car, doing good deeds, learning to camp, and being a good citizen. He's six. He'll have fun. You can, too. :)

[dashrif]

98. +1

I have had some of the best father son time in the world for us it about good will and empathy to evey one I am a Webelos Den leader and can not be more proud of my scouts

let him go and be a tiger den leader you will find great reward I watching the boys grow and learn they can be turds but also a hoot

[harvey007]

81. Be glad that he wants to join Boy Scouts

Be glad that he wants to join the Boy Scouts. Support whatever good, clean fun he wants to partake in.
At least he's not sitting in front of the computer or TV all day.

[politicallore]

112. agreed

[akwapez]

84. I had an OP months back based on this same issue

Basically, I was asking about alternative scouting programs. There are some, but none that drew us in. You can look at options like 4H, Campfire USA, SpiralScouts, Earthscouts, and others. But these were either not what we were looking for or not organized enough to bother. The BSA model is closest to what we like, but wanted something that wasn't discriminating and also preferred a co-ed program. After much web (and soul) searching, we have recently decided to just start our own. This is still very early in planning, but we are getting together with other interested families and we will see what happens. It will be a lot more work this way, but I'm not about to concede my morals when it comes to my children.

[frazzled]

89. Let him join

Denying him the right to participate with his friends will only boomerang later into blaming you for controlling his life. Then he'll become a right-winger just to piss you off.

Chances are he will want to stop going in two years anyway. Just smile and wait till he rolls his eyeballs about the whole thing himself.

In the meantime, let him enjoy some hiking and lanyard-making or whatever it is that scouts do these days. Try to get involved so you have some control over what activities the troop is doing.

Let your kids decide things for themselves, including whether to believe in God or not, or what kind of politics to adhere to. Believe me, they will follow your example more than your lectures. I hate it when I see these teabaggers using their children as political surrogates. I didn't like it any better when I saw our side use their young children to promote anti-war or anti-Bush messages. Kids are kids. Leave them out of it.

I guess my advice as a parent who went through all this is to just chill. Your kid will be great, will learn from your moral and ethical example, and will turn out to be a fine person. Being in a Boy Scout troop for a while with his friends won't change that.

[Fire1]

90. My son was indoctrinated into Christianity from birth so I didn't

face that dilemma. Don't know what to tell ya.

[MineralMan]

91. Aside from their open discrimination against atheists and gays,

I dislike the BSA for its quasi-military structure. Having served in the military myself, I believe that belongs to the adult world, not the world of children. For all three reasons, I do not support the BSA in any way, and would not subject a child to it.

It is a parental decision alone, of course.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

93. I was a Cub Scout back in the 1950s

That was in Germany, on a giant U.S. military base. I don't remember ever, ever hearing any mention of God or religion or subjects like homosexuality even remotely or tangentially being approached. But maybe the Scouts have become a lot more politicized in recent years, I don't know. I don't even remember anyone having to recite the oath aloud. Most of the meetings involved the pack sitting around a circle with the Den Mother or Father making us do arts and crafts crap and bringing cookies. When it was my turn to bring cookies I usually told my mom about it when I got home from school about a half hour before the meeting and I watched her go nuts in the kitchen trying to frantically bake several dozen. I have to say, though, that as an 8 year old kid, I got very little out of it. The kids in my own part of the Air Force Base formed our own club and went hiking, building forts, and having wars with neighboring clubs on our own, which was a lot more fun.

[LanternWaste]

94. I had fun when I was in...

I had fun when I was in... and neither God, religion, nor sex ever came into a discussion. The oath was said maybe once a month, and was said with the same emotion and same conviction as one would recite an oatmeal recipe.

We were in for the camping trips, and the merit badges-- but maybe these days parents have politicized in at the expense of nothing more than kids getting together and learning about birds, campfires, making a tent, learning about the different cloud formations, etc. :shrug:

[Fuzz]

100. My daughters are in Girl Scouts. The daughters of an atheist father who is the son

of an ordained Assemblies of God minister.

The oldest ones troop is lead by a Jewish troop leader, mixed races and religions in the troop, asian, aa, indian, etc. They do projects, community volunteering, work for badges.

My daughter has, on her own, she's 13 now, come up with ideas for the troop to do to help the community. I'm proud of her.

Her latest is to make scarves/sweaters for those in need by having a knitting parties. My parents recently moved into a senior living center and she is going to organize these parties at the senior center next door. She is going to do 50 hours of community service for a badge or award of some sort. She is going to organize the entire thing where people will get together, donate the yarn, make scarves, sweaters, whatever they can and donate to the seniors or homeless in the area. She met a woman in the neighborhood who teaches people how to knit and is going to try to recruit her into this project too.

I'm honest with her about the entire religion thing and they don't get into it with her troop, especially because of the demographics. There are a few really religious mothers, but at least one of them said to my wife that she trusts her kids with a heathen like me because she knows I'm an honest decent person, which I thought was great. I've picked up her kids from school for her when she was in a pinch and everything.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's the troop, not necessarily the organization.

[Bill McBlueState]

119. the question was about Boy Scouts,

a different organization with different policies from Girl Scouts.

[Fuzz]

122. Touche

[Critters2]

168. Girl Scouts has a non-discrimination policy, which is clearly stated.

Boy Scouts openly and proudly discriminates against gays. Two entirely different organizations.

[TxRider]

102. Why not be sensible about it, go meet the local troop, it's leaders etc.

Boy scouts all depends on the local group. Go meet them and see who they are, what they do etc.

Some troops are great, others suck.

I was in a great one, learned a lot, did a lot, and don't regret it a bit.

Our troop was heavily involved in wilderness activities. Lots of hiking, camping, canoeing, learning about nature etc. skills like survival, compass navigation, swimming etc. mixed with civic activities.

Stayed in until Ranger scouts, where we centered on native American history etc. I still have several native American friends from that time today, and still attend Pow wow's and such from time to time.

But I did run into other troops at events and such I would not have wanted to be a part of. If the parents leading the unit (troop) are bad, it won't be a good deal for your kid.

[Rebubula]

103. As an...

...Atheist and former Boy Scout - he will get out of it what he puts in.

Yes...the top organization may have some problems that it is dealing with, but the local troops operate pretty independently.

My cousin is an Eagle Scout, just started at UCLA and joined the Democratic Club on campus. He is an agnostic.

A lot of people are demonizing the Scouts, but like the military, you take the good with the bad and make yourself a stronger person.

[Bonhomme Richard]

107. Both my boys were in the Boy Scouts and..............

the youngest made eagle.
If you like the outdoors and want to spend quality time with your child I say go for it.
A word of advice.
You need to be involved and not just be the parent that drops off the child and picks them up after the meeting.
You also need to join a committee and be involved. There are a lot of right wingers running things and they need to be kept in check so you need to be there physically. At the end of the day they will respect your being involved and, if you get lucky, may even change a mind or two.
Camping with your kids is great fun but the discipline and confidence they acquire working on skills and advancements will do them nothing but good.
We have many friends we met through the Scouts, some liberal, some conservative and are still friends though I keep working on the conservative ones. I give them no slack and they know it.
Both my kids grew up to be strong liberals so it is up to the parent in the end.

[SoCalDem]

114. Share his excitement, and sign him up

He's going because he wants to share in something with his peers. To spoil it for him, will not make him want it less..it will just make him an outsider.

Most of the time scouting gets boring, and kids find other things they are interested in..but in the meantime, take him and enjoy it with him.

[rucky]

116. He wants to do it for the right reasons.

And he's six. The only way you'll have to confront those things you're objecting to is if you don't let him join. Then you'll owe him a good reason and have to crack open the can of worms yourself.

[TrogL]

117. Find out who's running the troop

Many are a front for the Mormon church at best or batshit evangelicals at worst.

[Hekate]

121. Look around to see if your local Unitarian Universalist church sponsors a troop...

Regardless of whether there's a UU sponsored troop, be sure to interview the Scoutmaster/Den Mother -- without your son present -- when deciding whether or not to pursue this activity. If you find yourself at odds with these people and their worldview, then find something else for your son to do.

My brothers and my son were all scouts in their day. My father was a scoutmaster. That was Before Politics and before the RW religious infiltrated the organization so thoroughly, before officially sanctioned homophobia. My brother in law, a UU, was a scoutmaster who chose to continue to be involved in the BSA in spite of what had become of the hierarchy. He resisted and he taught his son and his other scouts to resist the wingnuttery -- but they were a troop sponsored by his UU church and had the backing of like-minded liberal parents. His son became an Eagle Scout, but my BIL didn't leave the troop himself for several years more.

My son ended up in a highly active scout troop sponsored by the local Mormon church. He had friends already from school, and I was an overwhelmed working mother and grateful that other parents were able to be so active and involved. They camped, they worked through tons of merit badges as a group, they did outdoorsy stuff I never would have been able to do. There was so much that was positive about the experience, yet I made a point of my children having their OWN church with its OWN set of beliefs -- that is, the UU. I didn't leave a big gaping hole where proselytization could enter, because my daughter in particular was very susceptible to the Christian teen groups in her middle school.

As for the religious angle -- speaking as a parent and now a grandparent, please understand that whether you call it religion or morality or ethics, it's part of how you raise your children as soon as they can talk. Six years old is plenty old enough to be talking about "the right way to treat other people" and "what our family believes." You don't have to have religion -- my own mother walked away from the Roman Catholic church when my brother and I were still babies, but the whole time she was raising us and our younger siblings she talked about "ethics" and "the social contract" (I kid you not) and the "Golden Rule that is at the heart of every religion." Jesus was not "the son of God," but "one of many sons of God" doing the right thing in the world. There was no question of what she believed in terms of how we should behave toward others, and I think the only thing she really fudged on was not proclaiming her atheism -- instead she would only admit to being an agnostic.

I agree that the BSA has become very problematic, and I don't know if I would want my grandson to join at this point. He'll be 6 in a little over a year. His family is different, though, because his dad is a lifelong martial arts practitioner who works with groups of kids as well as adults. He may not get camping experience and merit badges, but he will have plenty of other things to do with his time.

The BSA has always been an explicitly paramilitary organization -- rah, rah turning boys into manly men with a code of honor, which is okay up to a point. That point was reached, in my opinion, when fundamentalists took over the leadership.

As a parent I think that's what you have to grapple with: First, making sure your kid understands that "family values" is something every family has, but with all due respect to others, this is how your family expresses its own values and other people have to respect you in turn. That will stand your kid in good stead wherever he goes. Second, what to do for after school activities. BSA is not the only group available. My kids were both in AYSO (American Youth Soccer) whose motto is "Every kid plays" and whose code of parental behavior I approved of 100% more than Little League. I have every confidence that you will find the right balance for your son and you, starting this year.

Hekate

[sazerac]

123. He's six

His friends are joining. Just let him join and don't take it so seriously.

[Lyric]

126. No way in hell I'd let my kid be a Scout. I refuse to be complicit

in religious intolerance and homophobia, and I refuse to make lame-ass excuses for "individual troops" when the reality is that every successful troop, tolerant or not, contributes to the success of the overall organization--and that organization IS religiously intolerant and unapologetically homophobic. The only reason that the BSA is so successful as a national org is because good liberals lie to themselves and say, "Oh OUR troop is tolerant, so everything is just peachy." The fact of the matter is that every boy who becomes a Scout, helps to support the organization as a whole, if not financially then by keeping the "brand" alive and well for the next generation of innocent kids.

I have a nine-year-old son, and my family and I take him camping and fishing *ourselves*. There's also a group through our local UU church that the kids can go through during the warmer months for outdoor activities, and that group is fine with me. If your community doesn't have a group like that, then by all means, START one! You don't need someone else to put their "brand" on it and make it official. Any parent who's willing to spend the time is capable of being a perfectly awesome "group" leader for Scout-like activities. If we start our own alternatives, we can let the BSA sink into bigoted obscurity like it deserves.

The Girl Scouts, on the other hand, kick ass. This lesbian atheist Mom (and former Girl Scout) HIGHLY recommends them.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

127. I told my kids no and told them why and they respected my wishes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. I was a den leader in Mexico, and if I had kids

they'd not join the BSA...

Why?

The US branch of the world movement has a few issues, like their stance on gays.

And the scout oath... Baden Powell insisted that God (a christian god mind you) was important for the development of a youth. We were a Jewish den, in a Jewish troop and we had a few kids who came from atheist families, so we asked the higher ups. We removed that part of the oath...

But in my experience most people do not even know the history of the world movement or the BSA. And as I said, if I had kids, they would not join the BSA. There are other groups... I have a problem with their issues with the gay for example.

[TexasObserver]

131. Probably important to find an alternative.

I would look for some kind of group his age he can join, a group that might be connected to pet recovery, or environmental issues, or working with animals, or exploring. There are alternatives to scouts, and I would try to redirect him to one of those groups.

If he asks, just say "scouts have some prejudices we don't believe in."

[TexasObserver]

132. Probably important to find an alternative.

I would look for some kind of group his age he can join, a group that might be connected to pet recovery, or environmental issues, or working with animals, or exploring. There are alternatives to scouts, and I would try to redirect him to one of those groups.

If he asks, just say "scouts have some prejudices we don't believe in."

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

136. I was in the Cub Scouts, and no one said anything about gays being evil

Some of the responses in this thread projecting as to what goes on at Scout meetings are hilarious.

If your son joins, get involved as a parent. That is the best way to knowing what is actually going on there, and it will create another bond with your son. My dad (a borderline socialist) signed on as an assistant to my troop, and I can tell you it was the time in my life I felt closest to him.

[Toasterlad]

155. So You'd Let Your Son Join an Organization That Excluded Blacks, As Long As No One Talked About It.

Nice.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

170. The comparison and it's implication is ridiculous

But I suspect your anger comes from another place.

[Toasterlad]

171. Please Explain Why the Comparison Is Ridiculous.

I suspect we've heard the last from you on this subject.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

173. Because it's an organization for young children

When does the subject of homosexuality even come into the picture?

You already compared them to the Klan, which is utterly ridiculous. The Klan exists specifically for the purpose of hate. Really, you'd make a great teabagger with the extrapolation you engage in.

It's already been drilled into your head a zillion times that the local chapters often have no connection to a church of any sort, but that doesn't fit your myopic view of the Cubs all being a bunch of fundies, does it?

True story. One time we had Barney Frank show up to hand out community service awards at a gathering in New Bedford. I got to shake his hand. (Of, course we all joined hands and damned him to hell afterwords while pledging allegiance to Ronald Reagan and God afterwords. :sarcasm:)

And take your sneering attitude and shove it. Make sure you don't vote for any politician who's been in the military or is a member of the Catholic church while your at it.

(Sorry to disappoint as far as "last you'd hear of me". Illogical reactionaries who make idiotic and offensive comparisons don't frighten me.)

[Toasterlad]

177. Good God, You're Serious.

What the fuck is your point? If the subject of BLACK doesn't come up, then it's okay to join a club that excludes African-Americans? What the hell does TALKING about it have to do with anything?

This group excludes gay people from participating. It is EXACTLY the same as if the group excluded black people from participating. Are you really that dense, or are you really that homophobic? I honestly didn't believe you were until you attempted to defend your inane "point" with some SERIOUSLY ignorant logic.

Meanwhile, I guess you never met a gay kid. Or did you think homosexuals spring full grown from truck stop restrooms?

I don't care if 27 of your local chapters showed up and gave Barney Frank the key to city while pissing on the national Boy Scout charter. You were a member of an organization that exludes gay people from participating. You can justify it any way you like, but it doesn't change the fact.

You don't have to dress in white hoods and burn crosses to be a hate group.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

178. Man, you need some serious help

I mean really.......you apparently really do think that the Cub Scouts is an organization that you join to bash gay people, like one would join the KKK to hate blacks and Jews. You don't don't even realize how badly you marginalize the atrocity of those other groups when you say that. Sad.

I was nine fucking years old when I was in the Cub Scouts, and it didn't make me hate anybody, nor did it make my father any less of a liberal himself. Shame on my pack leaders for not doing their assigned indoctrination, I guess. I guess I'm not also progressive enough for you because I never knew a "gay kid" who was open before I got to college and I never talked about homosexuality with other nine years olds.

Your ad hom attack implying how I think homosexuals are "created" is offensive and shows how truly lost in your own anger you are. You're so certain this organization MUST create little haters that you're willing to scream "J'accuse!" with projections of vile bigotry they simply MUST engage in if they aren't lockstep with your view.

NOW, we're done.

[Toasterlad]

179. I Never Once Accused the Boy Scouts Of Indoctrination

It's enough that they don't allow gay people to join. That's enough hate for me. They don't have to preach it to kids. They can just wait for the kids to hear about the kicked out kids and scout masters on the news. But I guess in your world, it's okay to discriminate as long as you keep quite about it. I'd say YOU'RE the one who needs the help, fella.

Still waiting for an explanation (a RATIONAL one) for how it's okay to exclude gays but not okay to exclude blacks. Oh, wait...that's right. THERE ISN'T ONE.

[bobbolink]

138. I understand and share your concerns. Just remember he's 6...and not as affected as you are.

When I think back to my childhood, I'm chagrined that I watched boxing on TV... and yet, I turned out to be a pacifist! :hi:

In many ways, the BSA are a throwback to the 50s.... homophobia, lockstep beliefs, etc., but you will still be discussing these things with him, and he's young enough that you have a lot of influence on his thought processes.

On the other hand, if he really wants to do this and you forbid it, it will very possibly make it all the more attractive to him.

Sometimes parenthood is just really enough to make you tear your hair out!

Good luck!

[MH1]

139. Scouting can be very helpful to a kid

in social development and getting to do cool stuff with other kids that you might otherwise not be able to organize for him to do.

I'd say talk with him when you're both ready about the religious stuff but don't ditch all the good offered by scouting just because of that.

I don't have kids but my brother raised two boys who got a lot from scouting - and they aren't particularly religious either. They did put a priority on talking to kids about the larger implications of things. (I was more concerned when their Mom caved on Pokemon crapola than about scouting. But then I think consumerism is even more insidious than religion.)

[abumbyanyothername]

145. Not sure if this has been mentioned but

the scouts do have a measurable incidence of sexual abuse - of both the adult child and child child varieties.

Not saying that we need to shield our children from all activities where sex abuse has occurred in the past, but I would be sure he gets "the talk" before shipping him off to any den meetings.

[NoSheep]

146. Try to find a group he can join that you may agree with or start your own!

[Kaleva]

149. Let him join. I suspect many 6 year olds don't care about what concerns adults.

If he has questions, talk to him about it then.

[buzzycrumbhunger]

154. We did Boy Scouts for over a decade

As a family that leans toward what many would consider pagan and very liberal, I found the old farts who wanted to relive their military careers by taking over the older troops like ROTC were more problematic than the religion.

For us, we viewed the "a scout is reverent" to mean toward nature. BSA is geared toward Native American values anyway (or what they think qualifies as such), so ecology and respect for nature is a huge part of the pioneering stuff.

As a 6-year-old, though, your son would simply be a Tiger scout--meaning all his activities are done as a team with a parent. It's actually pretty cool and doesn't involve a lot of time. They typically only have one group meeting a month, and it's often just the general pack meeting. Sometimes, it's just meeting at the bowling alley or a park. One year, the kids got to tour a forest ranger's station and climb the tower. Not a lot of pressure for the little guys, and often it's enough scouting to satisfy them. Many don't stick around to graduate into Cub scouts because they get bored or the parents don't like having to be involved. (It really does help to volunteer to help out, even if it's only to serve refreshments once a year.) If the little kids go camping, it's always a family activity, so you're not just dumping your kid off for free babysitting. I don't recall that they really go beyond the crafts and stuff for the younger kids, so you're not really impacted by the lousy decisions up at the council level.

If you're really bothered by the weirdness of BSA in general, have you considered Spiral Scouts? They do a lot of the same things, but are more oriented toward nature. I think they were started by Wiccans, but everyone is welcome to join. :)

[wedgered2]

156. I am conflicted as well...

I haven't read all the responses yet, and I am looking forward to hearing other thoughts. I found this this discussion while googling "Boy Scouts atheist."

My son is 9, My husband was a scout through high school and some if his best childhood experiences are from scouting. I am an atheist, my son is unsure, and unconcerned. I figured the god thing wouldn't come up too much, but even in signing up I bristled at this statement:

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God."

This was on a document I had to sign. Was I signing I agree? Was I signing that I was aware and read the Religious Statement and Principles?

Even if I was a religious person I would have issue with that statement...It is just so exclusionary....which brings me right back to the main problem. Do I want my son a part of an organization that discriminates?

I think most can agree that Scouting has value, but what is the cost? Does the experience outweigh the moral issues. As a parent, my priorities have changed; few parents will adhere to the "sacrifice one for the good of many." I want my son to live a full life with the richness and experiential education that scouting can offer.

But I now recognize that I have an additional responsibilities to speak about my beliefs and my right to have them. I am NOT able to act in any leadership capacity because of my beliefs, and how that affects us and how the troop will miss out on the skills and opportunities I have to offer. It is an opportunity to speak about discrimination against homosexuals and how hurtful and wrong discriminatory attitudes and policies are.

This is not just another parenting struggle. This is harder for me than I ever expected, but it has also given me the opportunity to reflect on my beliefs, recognize their importance, and communicate them to my son.

Good luck with your decision. Cheers!

[Arugula Latte]

159. Welcome to DU, wedgered2!

Sounds like you are a thoughtful person. Good luck with your decision -- we faced the same one six years ago (see upthread). :hi:

[voteearlyvoteoften]

157. Camping!!!!

Loved the scouts for both my kids. We are not church people so the emphasis on public service and good morals was a good thing.
Since its all volunteer the experience will hinge on the leadership. If you have a good group, contribute and make it better or spin it to your own preferences. They are flexible and in need of support from the community. And,a little survival training could go a long way in the world today.

[roody]

158. Does he say the pledge of allegiance? It has god too.

It sounds like a good time to begin the conversations.

[Javaman]

163. Meh, I joined the scouts when I was 7, I was in for a grand total of 3 weeks.

I hated it. I found them annoying. I was already doing most of the stuff they were doing with my dad by that point. I was lucky in that respect.

but aside from that, I never understood the concept of having to wear a uniform to go camping.

[NYC Liberal]

165. I was a Scout in NYC for several years. Our troop gave a "Fuck You" to the National Council

and told us they would not discriminate against anyone because they were gay and that the "official" policy was wrong.

The religious part of it was not emphasized at all, save for the part in the Scout Oath that we recited about "duty to God."

But of course, not all troops will be like this and you have to see what your local troop is like. Some of them basically run things like it's the military, others are like mine was and are much more relaxed and focus on the spirit of it.

[progressivebydesign]

174. Aww.. let the kid join! Let your child make up his own mind later on....

that age is not the time to politicize things. I know plenty of liberal folks with Eagle Scouts.

[IdClaire]

175. we started our six year olds this year...

No, I don't like the anti-gay stance of the organization and I worried about the church part of it but after going to a couple events I'm not so concerned (for now). Each den has about 10-12 scouts and I think it depends on the parents as to how they run it. Ours seems to be about the kids having fun. If I get a hint that they'll be trying to indoctrinate them into the Glenn Beck lifestyle, I'll pull them out in a heartbeat. I understand peoples problem with the BSA but my husband and I are responsible for raising our children and we aren't going to let the BSA have sway over our kids. I would check your local organization out and make sure you don't go to a church one, go to a school one and you will be able to tell if its for you and your son.

[ohheckyeah]

176. If you think the scouts are in some way

detrimental to your son's wellbeing then I think you should tell him no.

[Toasterlad]

185. Wow. This Thread Is Really Enlightening.

[astral]

186. Being exposed to religion or God seems to be like being exposed

to the black plague, to some of you. Look, the scouts were set up back in the 'old days,' when it was normal to be homophobic and it was normal to want to raise your child to believe in God. The organization has its roots and it is what it is.

Maybe it will continue, maybe it will evolve into something else, or maybe it will die as a relic of a way of thinking that the majority of people don't wanna see anymore.

I see this generation as people putting blinders on kids about everything around them so they walk through this narrow stall of experiences that suit what the parents want them to believe so they can control what they grow up to be like.

When I was a kid, my parents never prayed, never talked about God, except for my mom to tell me on occasion, "God's gonna PUNISH you!" and I never knew whether to believe in God or not.

It didn't keep me awake at night. For a short time I was sent to "sunday school" with a neighbor girl, and when I was 12 I started going to church with a friend's family and went up to the alter and all that stuff, believing for the first time I had really found God, and really knew He existed.

I forgot about that over the next few years and finally came to my own realization that there is a God and I do not have to know who or what He is or what religion He believes in, or whether or not He is a "He~!"

UNLAX, people, and don't be afraid to let your kids get EXPOSED to God, to spirituality, to <<gasp~!>> other people's wrong ideas about this that and the other --- your kids will be exposed to it all anyway, with or without your involvement, and will process it against whatever experiences they have when it comes.

I went to Girl Scouts for awhile, and have some very serious memories from that, like realizing I REALLY couldn't sing if my life depended on it, I would rather die than get on stage and do a play for my fellow girl scouts, selling cookies was a major drag and why can't I just EAT the cookies, one single camping trip we went on taught me I love campfires and I like smores, and I earned one single badge in my entire career --- drawing and painting and I was sure proud of that little badge.

I say just be involved in your kids' life, and discuss things with them so you can be aware of what they're learning and how it's affecting them, and hopefully your input will have an effect BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE for them. I didn't have parents that talked to me about much of anything, ever, and my life was made a little better for my girl scout experience.

Gays? I didn't know what the word Gay meant til I was in jr. high school, and when I first learned it I didn't think it was for real.

Homophobic? No, just totally sheltered and ignorant having grown up in the 60's and 70's. I got over it but only in my own time and through learning my own lessons.

[Douglas Carpenter]

190. I suppose some of this thinking is kind of the inverse of fundamentalist home schoolers

Children can't be sheltered from this cold, cruel world forever.

No matter how much some parents may want to protect their children, sooner or later - it might be a stranger, a trusted friend or neighbor or relative or someone they met at school - but sooner or later someone -somewhere will expose them to the concept of belief in God -

[flvegan]

187. This thread has not gone well.

[PassingFair]

191. For what it's worth...I don't think is LEGAL in some states for the school to hand out flyers...

from exclusionary groups like the boyscouts.

Check it out.

[Bluenorthwest]

193. I'd want them to be adults before they joined bigot groups

they can make that choice on their own dime,thanks.