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Who SHOULD Decide About War?

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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 03:36 PM
Original message
Who SHOULD Decide About War?
Remarks at http://whodecidesaboutwar.org conference.

Who actually does: the media, weapons companies, the permanent government, presidents (including simply by decreeing a "war on terror", through misspending, lying, simply acting, signing treaties), political parties, culture (the one Biden lives in, in which Israel's sovereign right to attack Iran is uncontroversial), soldiers who obey illegal orders and the culture that leads kids to that place.

Who should decide: we the people of the world, through democratically created and enforced international and national and state laws.

This is complicated by another question: what does the law say? But we may give too much importance to that. Laws violated for decades can be as hard to enforce as laws not written yet. But getting old laws enforced and new laws created has to be part of our strategy.

Which is why I wonder about proposing public referenda on wars. I'm not opposed, but undecided. With the communications system and government we have now, the public might have voted to attack Iraq in 2003. However, if required to vote again each year, the war might have lasted only one year instead of six and counting. But the initial invasion would still have been illegal, immoral, and catastrophic.

With a better communications system and election finance system and party system and voting system and congressional checks on presidential power -- in other words with everything we'd need in order to control Congress and create public referenda on wars or anything else -- we might see wars blocked by referenda. But if we're making exceptions for defensive (legal) wars, then why vote the illegal ones up or down, why not (given our hypothetical ability to control Congress) deter war criminals through impeachments, including the impeachment of attorneys general who refuse to prosecute them?

And why weaken the already unconstitutionally weak War Powers Act in the manner proposed this morning by Morton Halperin and taken from "Deciding to Use Force Abroad" by the Constitution Project, which effectively would limit Congress to deciding on whether or not to fight each aggressive war? Why not ban all aggressive wars by enforcing the laws that already do that? Or why not leave Congress the undiluted power to decide on all wars, as spelled out in the Constitution? I'm just asking. If you have to have a war powers act, why not at least limit the exceptions to congressional approval to cases of immediate defense of the United States? And then, what other wars should there be?

So, how DO we the people get the power to decide about war?

Through education.

Through counter-recruitment including countering mercenary recruitment.

Through systemic reforms (including restoring all but the 3rd amendment -- the one still left standing; and think about why that is).

By forcing our representatives in the House to reclaim and accept power on our behalf that they do not want. By forcing them to use the power of the purse. By forcing them to use the powers of impeachment and inherent contempt. (Barbara Lee was right on Thursday to introduce a bill to block funding an escalation, but so was John McCain the same day to advocate Congress bringing a general in for questioning. We need testimony from current war makers and from recent criminals.)

By holding war criminals accountable through national, state, local, civil, foreign, or international suits.

By thinking of 3 branches rather than 2 parties. People who wanted Congress to end Bush's wars want it to leave Obama alone.

By exposing the lies that Congress debated 7 years ago this week.

By restoring to Congress the power to make laws, wars, treaties, appointments, and spend all public money.

By dismantling the empire of bases and the military industrial media CIA/DIA complex (including the banning of any US military presence in foreign nations).

By amending the war powers act to disallow war without Congress, to require annual reauthorization, and to make violations impeachable offenses and felonies. And not to further weaken it by giving Congress the role of consultants.

By instituting a fair draft in time of war.

By making war profiteering a major felony and banning the ownership of war companies by elected officials.

By banning the use of mercenaries.

By passing Rep. Betty McCollum's ACORN Act (Against Corporations Organizing to Rip-Off the Nation).

By passing Rep. Jim McGovern's bill to require an exit strategy for Afghanistan.

By banning war propaganda (including a lot of recruitment ads and the Army Experience Center).

By requiring that family members of presidents and congress members who vote for wars participate.

By limiting to 25% the portion of the public budget that can go to the military and requiring a balanced budget. And by creating a separate line on income tax forms for military and war costs.

By requiring free comprehensive healthcare and education be provided to all military veterans.

By protesting at the White House on Monday, October 5th, along with http://www.nogoodwar.org

By working toward the vision Ben Manski presented today at http://www.whodecidesaboutwar.org of militias as opposed to standing armies, militias being volunteer forces that tend to resist foreign wars of aggression. By working toward the similar vision John Judge presented today of a democratic military without a judicial system separate from the civilian, with the freedom of soldiers to decline participation in wars, and with the right to unionize.

By developing, as discussed today at http://www.whodecidesaboutwar.org a legal structure for addressing impending acts of genocide around the world without permitting or facilitating wars of aggression.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. "the people get the power to decide about war?" - Good GAWD that would be horrific....
I'll stick to the Constitution on this one.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Why? If there was a fair draft, people would be less likely to vote for stupid wars.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. you're not making a friend here with, "soldiers who obey illegal orders"
Edited on Sat Oct-03-09 03:38 PM by thunder rising
might want to drop that.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. Me! I say end 'em all RIGHT NOW, damnit! nt
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. The media, as is customary. Certainly not the president if his name is Bush. Obama, that's OK.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think the people who have to put their lives on the line should decide
whether they will fight a war or not. Back in the good old barbarian days, chiefs had to rally up their troops. There had to be motivation, like defending your land and your family from invaders or the not so noble motivation of loot and plunder. Today, if we saw an armada of battleships approaching our beaches to invade us, I'm sure everyone would pick up arms in defense. On the other hand, if Bush had to get the consent of each soldier to invade Iraq, it wouldn't have happened IMHO.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I will *never* advocate for non-civilian controlled military. That's one of the most important
parts of America.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well the corporations are taking over, so how does that non-civilian
thing work our there?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. The first step in my opinion:
By holding war criminals accountable through national, state, local, civil, foreign, or international suits.

If anyone has any ideas about how to do this, please advise.
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invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm not sure I want we the people deciding this or a whole lot else.
By definition the people must lack the much of the data and what we the people want regardless of widely available data varies pretty widely. At best about half of the eligible we the people bother to vote, less than that are even on a surface level informed, and even less of them further participate.

Sounds good but we the people don't take our current level of responsibility seriously at all as a whole and I do expect us as society to care enough to know enough to dig in while keeping rational.
We the people come in mostly three flavors: don't fight no matter what, fight at any provocation, and don't give a shit. All three of which are incapable of rationally and/or knowledgeably making such decisions.

The real way to make sure as possible that we don't get into wars willy nilly is to mandate a heavy tax and a draft as a consequence. It would have to be damn serious to get people to sign up for crap even if we we're under threat much less on fancy. Our latest wars have all been taken up pretty much on a lark. Hit people for money and blood off top and they'll be much tougher to rile up and Congress will be less apt to screw around. Americans hate taxes and personal sacrifice enough to keep us out of wars of convenience without some serious Wag the Dog the likes we have never seen.
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-03-09 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ummm...

Through counter-recruitment including countering mercenary recruitment. I've never understood this. It is stupid on its face due to the fact that if you were 100% successful the nation would be devastated and overrun. If you don't expect to be successful then you are just admitting that you are trying to hurt the nation but don't expect to succed.

By dismantling the empire of bases and the military industrial media CIA/DIA complex (including the banning of any US military presence in foreign nations). Retarded... every time something happens in the world that would warrant a response, even by the most stringent standards, should be launched and transported from the East coast?

By instituting a fair draft in time of war. Crappy idea. I don't want anybody here who didnt sign up on their own.

By banning the use of mercenaries. By having a guy at the KBR DFAC to cook my eggs, it frees up another Soldier to come on patrol with me.

By banning war propaganda (including a lot of recruitment ads and the Army Experience Center). See my first point.

By requiring that family members of presidents and congress members who vote for wars participate. See my third point.

By limiting to 25% the portion of the public budget that can go to the military and requiring a balanced budget. And by creating a separate line on income tax forms for military and war costs.
Better hope nothing bad happens that would require a dedicated response. Would you like a blanket to hide under to keep you safe from the monsters? It will be just as effective.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. You're wrong about public opinion in 2003; it opposed Iraqi war
though not at the level it does now. Weakening Congressional power further, though, would be a move in the wrong direction.

As long as huge corruption causes massive giveaways of U.S. Treasury to corporations, a balanced budget requirement would lead to huge cuts in the already swiss-cheesy social safety net. And as long as you can't rely on the integrity of the election counts we don't have the loyalty of elected officials. They know who they have to support to prevent being hacked out of power.

Only wider umbrella-like organizing and actions have even a snowball's chance of restoring democracy. Not a handful of grandstanders.
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