President Obama and the two narratives.

[grahamhgreen]

1) In one narrative (Let's call it the neo-con narrative) America is fighting in Iraqistan in response to 9-11, and to bring democracy the mideast.

2) In the other narrative, the America is fighting in Iraqistan in order for the wealthy war profiteers to make more money from war, arm sales, death, and oil; and to terrify populations into accepting their flawed narrative (#1).

I think #2 is true.

#1 is illogical, and the arguments for it just don't hold water.

[MarjorieG]

1. Hard to turn the turn the ship, quickly if at all, but it's not for democracy or profiteering.

Those are two wrong extremes, and Obama is not a neo-con. I do think he, Biden and Kerry want to get this right, in how we disable the Al Quaeda forces that are everywhere and are a threat, knowing militarily not the only or complete answer.

[grahamhgreen]

3. Choices: Primary ways to diable al-quaeda

1) Police work: follow the money; tactical hits on key members
2) Military: Shoot, bomb and torture them, as well as innocent civilians (unintentional, yet unavoidable)

#2 brings the opposite of what we are trying to achieve, however it does enrich the war profiteers greatly.

[MarjorieG]

7. That's why Kerry said fighting terrorism is an intelligence/police matter. Obama agrees.

Of course, Cheney ridiculed Kerry for it. Sorry-disable, but I'm no typist.

[cliffordu]

2. We should leave and come home tomorrow.

I think abandoning the people who have supported us there a fine idea.

Maybe only a half a million will die as a result of supporting us, as opposed to the million or so that were shot, starved, and worked to death after we left Vietnam.

But who cares?? They ARE brown, after all. Oh, yeah-- they're mooslim, too.

It ain't YOUR fault they chose the wrong side.

[grahamhgreen]

4. LOL - They DON'T support us! THEY want us out! Good try.

[cliffordu]

5. Hmm....You're saying that 100% want us out.

The cooks and drivers and barbers and the sandbaggers and the day labor and the 'little people' you obviously don't count as human to you will be scapegoated simply because they worked for the US, as collaborators.

Of course there's the Afghani army, they should be alright after the loyalists to the government are slaughtered in the streets.

But don't let that get in your way. we should just leave and they'll be OK.

Over there, Martyrs are kewell.

[grahamhgreen]

6. No, just the majority - and they are supposed to be in charge in a democracy

But then again, it's not a democracy in Iraqistan, they are both Islamic republics.

How many more of our soldiers do you want to die for the Islamic republics we set up in Iraqistan?

Do you really believe that this is about anything other than making money for war profiteers?

If so, what is our objective? When do we leave?


PS - the cooks, barbers, sandbaggers, and day labor should all have been US military from start to finish and never contracted out to locals.

[cliffordu]

8. Now you're micromanaging the war by describing who should work for us and

who shouldn't.

What your stance lacks in actual information is apparently compensated for by your hubris and pseudo-intellectual snobbery.

Apparently you feel like as long as you're strident, you're right.

If you really believe the wars are simply to make the profiteers rich, I feel sorry for you.

But not really.

[grahamhgreen]

9. What's the mission objective?

[cliffordu]

10. You'd have to ask the joint chiefs and the WH....

I know what the objective is as far as the ground pounders go, but as for the rest......

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. Both are nonsense# #2 even more so than #1.

The reason that America is withdrawing from Iraq slowly rather than instantaneously, and the reason it is continuing to commit troops to Afghanistan, is that not doing so would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe even worse than the current status quo.

At this stage, the aim isn't "victory", it's damage minimisation: whatever course of action the USA takes, innocent people are going to die, and neither Iraq nor Afghanistan is likely to become a peaceful, prosperous, liberal democracy any time in the forseeable future, with or without American troops, but in both places the future if America doesn't pull out overnight is likely to be marginally less awful than if it does.