Here's one answer to NRA types when they push more guns as the solution

[pnwmom]

to the Virginia Tech tragedy:

When college campuses have eliminated their problems with drinking and other forms of substance abuse, then we can begin to talk about allowing guns on campus.

[Prophet 451]

1. The guns are not the problem

Booze and substances are not the problem either. All three are symptoms of the root problem which is that school and (to a slightly lesser extent) campus culture are so fucked up that they're toxic to the kids.

[silverojo]

2. Or maybe we could abolish handguns

So this guy could've planted several bombs instead, killing far more people.

Psychos are going to kill people. And let's face it, if there had been some security people there packing heat, this guy would've been dead long before he took out 32 other people. He knew he was up against a bunch of helpless, unarmed students, with no armed guards to stop him.

When are people going to stop whining about guns and address the real problem: Security. We need security in the form of guards and police. Disarming law-abiding citizens is only going to increase the number of helpless, sitting ducks, while criminals continue to obtain weapons at will.

[bluerum]

3. Gun control. Not abolishing guns. Strict laws on the sale of guns.

VERY strict laws on the sale of handguns.

Personally I would feel much safer knowing that there were fewer people on the street carry concealed weapons.

[B Calm]

5. No thank you. I see another election going down the toilet!

[Justyce]

12. I heard them say last night on

NBC news that the shooter's guns were obtained illegally and had the serial numbers filed off, etc. Laws made for law-abiding citizens restricting guns don't really apply to criminals who will always have access to them IMO.

[tkmorris]

6. You're right

We need armed guards in every room, with automatic rifles and flash grenades, and metal detectors in every doorway, and police given free reign to go anywhere and detain anyone whenever they want.

Wait. Fuck that. I don't want to live in that world. Maybe you want to show your papers everywhere you go but I'd rather be free.

[Kolesar]

8. Police and thieves

indiscreet.

The local alternative radio station cued up a song about a guy who dumped his punk-poseur girlfriend because it turned out that she didn't know "who Joe Strummer was".

[Prophet 451]

14. Disagree

"He knew he was up against a bunch of helpless, unarmed students, with no armed guards to stop him."

I doubt he thought that part through. Psychology and criminology are hobbies of mine. This is what is referred to (amongst other things) as a "planned snap" murder and while we don't know much about the psychology of such perps, we do know that they almost always do not take the actions of law enforcement, security, etc into account. Because killers of this type generally consider themselves superior to most of humanity, they generally imagine that they don't need to consider their actions when planning their crimes.

[CANDO]

16. I don't think any of us wish to live our lives under armed guards.

That is not freedom. Security does not equal freedom. We have a society sick with violence. It's glorification surrounds us all our lives. It's how we solve our problems. It's how the President solves his problems. Shoot first and ask questions later. Refuse to talk with those whom you disagree with. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. We need to at least start putting in place major hurdles for people to acquire guns. You at least make them commit a crime simply by obtaining one illegally. I own guns. I submitted to a background check. I have a CDL. I have to have fingerprints taken and a criminal background check done just to have a commercial driver's license. And yet the NRA screams bloody murder if they have to give an inch for a safer society.

[TheWebHead]

4. the arm everyone idea

frankly is absurd. Yes, it would reduce the incidents of mass killings, but it would cause an overall rise in gun deaths, especially domestic incidents. There are a lot more accidental and domestic shootings than home invasion murders - which I would equate to school shootings but on a more horrific scale.

[BushOut06]

7. It's happening here in Florida

Since they passed the law allowing you to shoot anyone who you feel "threatened" by, violent crime in Florida has been skyrocketing. Here in Orlando, the murder rate is climbing astronomically.

[FormerDem06]

10. So how many of those murders in Orlando have been by law abiding permitted conceal and carry folks

And how many by gangs (MS13 and the Columbians are fighting over Florida right now from a drug standpoint); and generally bad people with illegal firearms.

I'd be interested to know those statistics.

[jody]

11. I understand a significant portion of Orlando's murders are caused by a single group.

Do you have a link to a study that finds the increase in Orlando's murder rate is caused by Florida's new law?

I believe other Florida cities have not seen an increase in their murder rates.

[benEzra]

17. Shooting someone whom you merely "feel threatened" by is still murder in Florida...

Since they passed the law allowing you to shoot anyone who you feel "threatened" by, violent crime in Florida has been skyrocketing. Here in Orlando, the murder rate is climbing astronomically.

Shooting someone whom you merely "feel threatened" by is still murder in Florida; the new law eliminated the quirky duty to retreat, but didn't otherwise change the requirements for self-defense in a public place. So you still have to be in reasonable danger of death or serious bodily harm due to a violent attack or a forcible felony, you can't be the instigator, can't use disparity of force, etc. So Florida's self-defense law in public places is NOW just like California's (and that of most of the nation); the only difference is that the new law prevents your attacker from suing you if your use of force is ruled justified self-defense.

The presumption of justified use of force in the law ONLY applies to home invasions and carjackings, so you can shoot somebody who kicks in your door or tries to carjack you--which is nothing new in Florida or anywhere else.

[Prophet 451]

15. Not the same

Home invasion murders are usually either the result of a robbery gone bad or some form of revenge killing (discounting the very, very rare serial who targets families). The latter is closer to a school shooting but the psychological processes and the reasons behind them are very different.

[pnwmom]

20. That's what I'm saying. If we added guns to alcohol-soaked campuses

full of late adolescents, we'd just be asking for trouble.

[Greyhound]

9. Every time we try to legislate based on aberrations we end up making things far worse.

Today's event was a horrible tragedy, caused by a maniac. It happens every decade or two and nothing is going to stop it.

Same with the 9/11 attacks, we've been attacked by terrorists before, both domestic and foreign, but they were never so successful, 9/11 was an aberration, and in typical American fashion, we over-reacted in the extreme and look what we got. Two countries entirely destroyed (we could be the third), hundreds of thousands of people dead, a trillion dollars pissed away, and way more new terrorists than the most optimistic terrorist recruiter could ever hope for, oh, and the guy that "did it" is still free.

When will we learn?

[Kolesar]

13. the disaster in Iraq or the War on Terror have nothing to do with firearms laws...eom

[Greyhound]

21. Except as a timely example of what happens every time we take dramatic steps

in response to unusual or unique events.

What happened yesterday is unusual only in its scale and the failure to respond to it quickly. Changing the gun laws, or imposing stiffer jail sentences, or psychological profiling everybody that attends college, or whatever "solution" we come up with in response to this tragedy will not stop or make any difference in the next massacre.

The answer to this horror, like most to the other horrors we suffer through daily in this country, but don't care about because it wasn't big enough to make the news, lies in making life easier for our citizens, not more punitive.

[Na Gael]

18. Reasoning?

What you mention are symptoms of a far greater disease, or diseases. Is it your hypothesis these are symptoms part of the same disease, or diseases in and of their own merit?

It is my opinion that these are two distinct manifestations, which can share some of the same root causes.

Eliminating manifestations will not rid society of it's ills. To the contrary, it hides them until such time that the fix can no longer mask the symptoms. As a result the disease grows, and in this case-taking with it more of our young. Is this statement agreeable?: Those that wish to make a violent statement, must resort to an ever-increasing gruesome display for the reward of recognition. "Recognition," remember that word.

First, we must determine the cause of these particular instances. Once a root cause has been found, the search must continue for more, as there may be a synergism occurring. Guns are not the cause of violence, just as alcohol and drugs are not the cause of addiction; Furthermore, violence is not the reward, just as addiction is not a reward. These are merely vehicles for manifestation, and their temporary suppression is in part what fuels greater, subsequent crises.

Even if the root causes of one issue(addiction) are recognized and subsequently addressed, to suggest that "a relaxation of gun legislation should be allowed" is inherently flawed. Only 1/2 of your issue is addressed; While, the other 1/2 of your argument has not even been fully fleshed-out.

First and foremost, I believe we(society-US in particular), lack in understanding Causality as it pertains to early childhood development. We are living in a huge non-scientific experiment where a hypothesis has yet to be accepted, much less embraced as true. And if US history is any indicator, it will take a monumentous event to incite change.

More and more children are progressing through life with less and less Positive Recognition in their lives. Some children receive so little positive recognition that it is seen as a foreign and uncomfortable experience. On the other hand, many of these same children receive copious amounts of Negative Recognition in various forms. Historically(and rare), extreme cases of this situation can be seen in some of the former Soviet Union's adoption houses. However varying degrees of these situations are not rare, and with an expanding populace, are becoming more commonplace.

Couple the aforementioned, with a growing acceptance and sensationalism of violent lifestyles, and we have a proverbial tinderbox for situations like the one played out yesterday. Unfortunately, it will take an unprecedented societal change, the likes of which I am afraid the general public may not approve. Until that time, "tit-for-tat" politics, prohibition, or squelching the symptoms of a sick society, will only provide temporary...if any, relief.

[pnwmom]

19. I was being ironic. Colleges are never going to "eliminate"

substance abuse problems.

The point I'm making is that alcohol and guns is a terrible mix. Putting a bunch of guns in the hands of binge drinkers is obviously an insane idea.