FDR had a compliant Congress to work *with* him and not *against* him.

[redqueen]

So it's not so much a matter of courage as it is a matter of what kind of reform is possible given the makeup of Congress.

[rockymountaindem]

1. All of these peoples' complaints would go away if

they would accept the fact that our system is designed to work slowly, sometimes excruciatingly so. When things are taking forever, that's when our system of government is working as it should. Any time in which change happens rapidly in either direction is the rare exception and not the rule.

[timeforpeace]

2. Approximately 100% of them want healthcare reform NOW unless things have changed in the last couple

minutes.

[Auggie]

4. This is corporate interest looking out for itself...

this isn't "our system"

[JackRiddler]

11. Change always happens quickly.

In politics, things change substantially only in the exceptional times when they change rapidly. In addition, nothing ever changes except that "these people" you sneer at fight for it. Your argument would have not been out of place as a lecture to the impatient abolitionists, or to those fighting against 1890s imperialism or the invasion of Vietnam.

While it's true that social and economic changes tend to take hold gradually, sometimes imperceptibly, the resulting political changes happen in large, discrete and rapid steps. After long delay, a law is passed and overnight, slavery is abolished, millions are employed in a jobs program, GI's are put through college, Medicare is established.

Your abstract chestnuts about "our system" being "designed to work slowly" serve to rationalize acceptance of the status quo and legitimate the illusions of change represented by the laughable health-care proposals currently on the table.

[Fumesucker]

14. You mean like TARP worked so slowly?

Or the PATRIOT act?

The government has no problem acting quickly when the fucking owners need or want something.

[bvar22]

20. The system worked pretty FAST when "Bailing Out " Wall Street.

It took Congress less than a week.
That is not just FAST, it is BLINDLY FUCKING FAST.

Health Care Reform is just about the little people dying (40,000/year), so Congress can take its sweet Corporate Owned time.

[Captain Hilts]

3. Yes and no. A good chunk of the Democrats from the South were worse than blue dogs.

Look at Breckenridge Long. Bigoted anti-Semite, etc.

Congress could not pass an anti-lynching bill in the late 1930s. It was THAT bad on a lot of issues.

[redqueen]

5. Would you agree they were much less divided on economic issues? (nt)

[Captain Hilts]

6. Moreso than other issues, yes. But not all. Soc. Sec. was a tough one.

The Wagner Act was also tough.

But, yes, immediate economic relief measures, yes, they were on board. Definitely.

As someone said above, the system is designed to work slowly, and it is. It is meant to empower folks like Ollie Snowe.

[Ardent15]

8. Yep. The Dixiecrats were just as conservative as the Republicans on many issues. nt

[andym]

22. But on economics, some Southerners were far to the left of FDR

Your example of Huey Long for example. "Share the Wealth!"
And that's what mattered most to the "New Deal"

[ProSense]

7. Let's measure the political courage of the last two Presidents

Clinton signs DOMA and DADT and repeals Glass Steagall.

Bush illegally invades Iraq

Political courage?

I know Helen Thomas called out Bush, but did she call out Clinton?

[Captain Hilts]

9. DOMA was an election year stunt that even Barb Mikulski voted for.

He NEVER should have signed DADT or the repeal of Glass Steagall.

Yes!! He should have shown more courage.

And so should have FDR over the anti-lynching bill that had strong, national support. He was afraid of pissing off folks like Breckenridge Long. Speaking of Long, FDR should NEVER have appointed him - as a complete bigot - as head of the US's refugee board. Eleanor was right, Long was a "fascist." Her term.

And so should Obama. Like Clinton, Obama wants a lot of the wrong people to like him. This is a recurring Democratic problem.

Obama has rewarded Jim Leach for repealing Glass Steagall with an appointment. He's appointed a trucking industry lobbyist to be in charge of trucking oversight. He's appointed the attorney that fought GE's having to clean PCBs out of the Hudson for DoJ's post overseeing environmental oversight. Hillary would probably have done the same thing. It's a Democratic thing. And it's maddening.

And you are a complete shill for Obama.

[AllentownJake]

10. Depends on the issue

We have a stronger social safety net in 2009 than we had in 1932. As such it is harder to get economic reforms passed.

We are a more jingoist country in 2009 the we were in 1932 as such it is rather easy to get defense appropriations passed.

[leftstreet]

12. Wait...you're comparing Obama to FDR?

:rofl:

[FrenchieCat]

13. Yep....the 10 monther is being compared to the 144 monther....

and the incarceration of Japanese Americans are nothing that we should
use in making such a comparison.

But I think Poster was making a statement based on another thread in where
it was said that Obama didn't have FDR's courage, per Helen Thomas.

I think folks need to hold on so that there is a reasonable timespan in which to judge....
otherwise, it doesn't make sense, and it certainly is not fair, at all.

[AllentownJake]

15. FDR did more for everyday Americans

Than any President in history.

Love how you start off with the Japanese Internment.

[leftstreet]

17. lol yeah that 'incarcerated japanese' thing threw me

But then I'm still trying to figure out who 'Jenny McCarthy' is.

[AllentownJake]

18. I used to have a poster of her on my wall

15 years ago when I was a teenager. After that I stopped paying attention to her.

[FrenchieCat]

19. FDR was given a fair amount of time to accomplish these things.....

and I'm not sure why the Internment issue isn't important...
or should it only be important to the Japanese...who I guess aren't considered everyday Americans,
from where you sit, hey?

and I know that Black Folks didn't get any civil rights laws of any note signed under FDR.....
but I guess he was too busy trying to rescue the nation from a great Depression and fighting a war.... :shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

24. Eleanor, Ickes, Hopkins, Perkins, Alexander, insisted he help regular folks. nt

[Captain Hilts]

23. Yeah, I know. nt

[tekisui]

16. Obama is the leader of the party,

and the party has a majority in both houses. Obama is either unable or unwilling to get his party in line. Either way, it is sad for us.

[anonymous171]

27. EXACTLY! nt

[bvar22]

21. FDR and JBJ had a "knack"....

...for encouraging Congress to become compliant.

Obama does too.
Just ask the Progressive Democrats who wanted to vote "NO" on Obama's War Supplemental.
THEY became "compliant".
Obama just doesn't want to arm twist the Blue Dogs into compliance on Health Care.
Why is that? :shrug:
Too bad.
Such high hopes.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[dugaresa]

25. LBJ had a knack for knowing all the gossip and making sure that he kept a tally of who he did favors

for and those who did him favors.

He knew how to manipulate people and so did FDR.

Those men came from the era when politics were far more dirty than today and when people in the working class were not afraid to bust heads to get something they wanted (the rise of unions).

[anonymous171]

26. Politics are still very dirty. Politicians just have better PR. nt

[dugaresa]

28. i think they are just greedier and they have figured out more ways to get their entire families

involved. You see more politicians today with spouses who end up on the receiving end of lobbying dollars, etc. That was unheard of during LBJ's days as most women were still "housewives", but today that wife at home can be a consultant and be the recipient of a lot of extra income to help sway votes.

I think today they are just prostitutes who sell themselves to the lobbying firm willing to pay for them.

[bvar22]

29. Obama knows how to do that too.

He sent his Winged Monkeys after the Progressive Caucus members who were going to vote against his Supplemental War Appropriation. Some of them had campaigned on that issue.
Among other things, they got personal calls from Rahm and Hillary.
They were told things like,
"The door to the White House will be forever closed to you!"
and
"We will come to your district and campaign AGAINST you!"

Enough of them got the message to change their vote and pass the money for more WAR.

So the Obama White House knows HOW to play hardball and fight dirty.
They choose NOT to where the Blue Dogs and DLC are concerned.
Wonder why?