Obama is fucked

[leave iraq]

If he thinks any military presence in Afghanistan will be productive and helpful, he is fucked

Just finished watching Obamas War on Frontline

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamaswar/view/

stupid men making stupid war

[SIMPLYB1980]

1. We can still do good there.

Flame away, I know it's what you want to do.

[Common Sense Party]

5. We CAN do good...but at what cost?

I'm torn.

[SIMPLYB1980]

7. The cost is irrelevant to me.

And to those in my family fighting for Obama and the US.

[spoony]

10. Tell that to the families of dead soldiers and civilians.

I'm sure they'll appreciate that you don't give a shit they were sacrificed to continue Bush's lies.

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. When one of my cousins dies over there,

I will make sure to let you know so that you can tell me he or she died for nothing.

[spoony]

Good to know you're so ready to sacrifice other people

including your own family, to further a failed neocon policy disaster. Fucking chickenhawks, always willing to let others die for their flag-waving bragging rights.

[SIMPLYB1980]

21. Fail.

But do go on.

[alarimer]

17. They are dying for nothing.

It's funny how now Obama is in charge, all of a sudden this is the "good" war.

The fact is Afghanistan is a fucked up place and more of our troops there will not help one little bit and will likely make things worse.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

28. Internet cliches and testosterone, and neocon nation-building fantasies

They all seem to go hand in hand, and there you are!

[SIMPLYB1980]

31. More please.

:nopity:

[Cherchez la Femme]

100. Wait, didn't you just say "the cost is irrelevant to me"?

NOW the concern about your family?

Either I or you are seriously confused...

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

23. Uhuh

How noble of you, patriot!

[SIMPLYB1980]

29. Keep it coming.

I can take all the hate DU has to give me. You seem to need to get it off you chest.

[Oregone]

36. Hate?

They aren't the ones who want perpetual atrocities and death

[tekisui]

35. It has already destroyed our economy for a generation,

how much more do you want to give to this Lost War?

[SIMPLYB1980]

37. Well I think the death of our economy has

been highly exaggerated.

[Are_grits_groceries]

43. Then you aren't paying attention.

People don't have jobs or homes. They are losing them daily. You can pretend everything in the economy is hunky dory, but that won't make it so.

[SIMPLYB1980]

46. I'm paying attention. Jobs will come back

they may be different, but they will come. Stock market is doing better and every month their are fewer jobs lost. I figure by Jan we will start adding jobs instead of losing them. Shit's gonna take some time to dig us out of the hole * put us in though.

[Are_grits_groceries]

52. The deficit is huge.

We can't spend the amount of money in Iraq and Afghanistan that we would need, and get this country going again.

Bush drove it into the ground trying.

[SIMPLYB1980]

55. And it's going to get bigger before it gets smaller.

This goes in cycles and I bet by the end of the Obama Presidency we will be back to a balanced budget with a surplus. Even if we have to raise the taxes on the top 1%.

[Selatius]

117. Are you willing to put your life on that bet? nt

[bvar22]

109. "I'm paying attention. Jobs will come back"

Would you like some fries with that?

[SIMPLYB1980]

131. As long as you have some cheese

with your whine.

[dflprincess]

141. There are fewer jobs lost each month

because there are fewer and fewer jobs to lose. (And I'll be it's a great comfort to the unemployed to hear that "fewer jobs" are being lost - it's sure not a comfort to those of us who are lucky enough to still be working)

[Common Sense Party]

47. Afghanistan did not kill our economy.

What we have spent there economically is a pittance compared to Iraq, and compared to all the other unbridled spending Congress seems to love.

[tekisui]

51. The cost in Afghanistan will eclipse Iraq.

[Common Sense Party]

64. That is possible. It's also possible that it will be much cheaper.

Either way, it was grossly inaccurate to say that the Afghanistan war killed our economy for a generation.

Have you seen credible estimates for the long-term cost of continued war in Afghanistan?

[tekisui]

82. Funding for war in Afghanistan will eclipse Iraq for the first time in next year's budget.

It will cost more per year next year, and will likely continue for much longer.

http://features.csmonitor.com/economyrebuild/2009/09/15/economic-scene-afghanistan-will-cost-us-more-than-iraq/

[Are_grits_groceries]

39. The cost isn't irrelevant to me.

BTW just because I don't support staying in Afghanistan, it doesn't mean I don't believe the troops should be supported. If they have to fight, they need to be given everything they need to do the job.

The troops haven't been supported in many ways starting with Iraq. They were sent over there with vehicles that weren't properly fitted with the right armor, and many were wounded and killed by IEDs because of it.

KBR and some of the contractors aren't providing quality. KBR is already responsible for many deaths because they didn't put in the electricity at the bases properly, and soldiers were electrocuted. They still have contracts.

When the troops came home, they were left in horrendous conditions at places like Walter Reed. Bush continually cut the VA budget.

When I bitch about those things, I feel like I am supporting the troops.

Right now in Afghanistan, I believe they need to pull in from all the undermanned bases out in the middle of nowhere. Those soldiers are sitting ducks. They need to be based at reasonable places where they can be given some backup. I realize they are soldiers and have to carry out missions, but they don't have to be placed in extreme danger.

In Afghanistan, there is no defined mission except to create a stable nation. I'm sorry, but they need to be more explicit and explain how before I think it is reasonable to get bogged down more.

Our armed forces are worn flat out in places. The troops are being sent back in over and over. They can't get any life back home re-established. We aren't supporting the troops by asking them to return over and over and over.

Afghanistan has never been conquered or rules by an outside power. Many have tried and the Soviet Union threw everything at them for 10 years.

here are 2 articles worth reading:
A War of Absurdity by Robert Scheer
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20091007_a_war_of_absurdity

An analysis by an officer who served in the area:
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48875

If our goal is to stop Al Qaeda, then we need to rethink how.

[dflprincess]

40. I wasn't aware that the military "fought for" the president

were you as supportive of this mistake when Bush was running it and your family members were (according to you) fighting for him?

[SIMPLYB1980]

53. Well he is the commander-in-chief.

I heard my Grandfather say many times that he fought for FDR during WWII.

[dflprincess]

63. I never heard my dad say he fought for FDR

he enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor to defend the U.S., not Roosevelt (who he admired). And, even though WWII was the "good" war he came home from it a pacifist.

But you didn't answer my question, did you support the war when it was being fought "for" Bush?

[SIMPLYB1980]

69. I did support the war in Afghanistan even under Bush.

I did not support the Iraq war.

[bridgit]

42. The cost of war isn't merely relevant it's as palpable as a war plan should be...

bush/cheney had no plan but to be seen as tough guys tossing blood, skin and treasure down Aladdin's oil well/rat hole - that's no war plan, that's a Toby Keith song

[asdjrocky]

85. Man that's just messed up.

I gotta tell you, that is some really messed up thinking you got there.

[Cherchez la Femme]

96. Would you put it the same way, say, a year ago?

i.e. "And to those in my family fighting for Bush and the US."

If not, you've got some thinking to do...

[SIMPLYB1980]

103. Yes actually.

If Bush had never ordered torture I may even had come around on Iraq.

[tabasco]

126. Ya' lost me there.

I, like you, supported military action in Afghanistan.

But under no circumstances could I have agreed in any way with the invasion & occupation of Iraq. The only way to terminate an unjustified invasion is a full withdrawal.

[MrMickeysMom]

106. Please explain what they are fighting for... seriously

I've not been able to come up with any real reason.

And, please don't think this is an ignition to any flame. I simply have no idea why we are there.

[gateley]

9. Sincere question -- what good can we do?

I asked this in another post. What can be accomplished? What is our GOAL?

I honestly want to understand.

Thanks! :hi:

[SIMPLYB1980]

19. Stabilize Afghanistan while the Paki's fight the Taliban.

This time I don't think the Paki's will sign any truce the the Taliban. It looks as if they are not stopping until the Taliban is wiped out. Meanwhile we Nation Build in Afghanistan, try to raise their standard of living. Help them create and education system. Teach them to grow and sell different crops from poppies. Help woman and children gain equal rights in their society. Lot's of good we can do if we only have the will power.

[spoony]

24. Will power? You're one to talk.

You want to clean up the world? Like the man said, grab a mop. Or a gun, since that's how you think we can make the world better.

[SIMPLYB1980]

33. Yes yes, let it all out.

You will feel better.

[a la izquierda]

38. Unfortutanely, history isn't on our side with Afghanistan.

and for that matter, whenever we try and enforce things like democracy, women's rights, etc., on an unwilling population, it doesn't end well.

[dflprincess]

44. The administration has recently said it would be willing to "work with" the Taliban

provided it renounced its terrorist ways as we still see Al Queda as the enemy in Afghanistan. No detail was given on whether or not renouncing terrorism including treating women and children as people.

I also have some real problems with "nation building" while the infrastructe of the United States continues to crumble.

[gateley]

49. Isn't that what we're trying to do now?

I obviously just don't get it.

Isn't the Taliban an insidious enemy? I get the feeling if we stomp them out HERE, then they pop up over THERE. Like whack-a-mole.

I want to help the people, that the only reason I see for going into another country (and why I think it's incumbent upon us to help the Iraqi people as much as we can before we depart). But I'm just not convinced that is attainable in Afghanistan.

[Are_grits_groceries]

50. That is an admirable goal.

However, nobody has been able to do it, and many have tried. Pakistan just wants the Taliban to stay the hell out of their country and leave them alone.

What you are suggesting for Afghanistan would take years if the country was stabilized. How long will it take with constant fighting?

Are you willing to tie up enormous amounts of money, material and manpower in one country while the rest of the world goes begging?

[JVS]

61. You're wrong, and dude, "Paki" is not preffered nomenclature

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

74. Isn't that the term that got Prince Harry into trouble since it's considered a racial slur?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paki

[JVS]

87. Yep

[izzybeans]

125. Beat me too it. Funny the guy who wants war uses slurs to make his point.

[SIMPLYB1980]

127. Again they are our Allies.

I bet they still call us Yanks. I see no difference in us calling the British Brits, or the Australians Aussies. Call it racist if you want, but I don't see it that way.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

130. In general, the human race just hasn't mastered the art of playing well with the other children.

Maybe that's why we see so little of this.

[shadowknows69]

129. Lebowski reference for the win!

[bertman]

68. SIMPLYB1980, I appreciate your and your family's commitment to American foreign policy

in the form of military service. That is a noble cause, and one all Americans should honor. This is not a gentle world and we would not be safe if it were not for those who are willing to stand and fight to protect us.

My problem with this Afghanistan War is that it is Vietnam Redux. It is not about protecting us, but "freeing" others. Your comments in the "Stabilize Afghanistan while the Paki's fight the Taliban" post could have been written by the propagandists for the Vietnam War. Delete the part about women's rights because we didn't make that an American mantra until it became a handy justification when we started warring against Islam. Change the part about poppies to saving the "breadbasket of Asia" against Communist aggression.

The goals were the same--save the world from Communism/totalitarian Islam by establishing democracy in a nation that had never seen it and didn't want it. Keep the Communist Vietnamese/Taliban from siding with the Communist Chinese/ Islamist Pakis or Iranians (take your pick) and taking over the region. Raise the standard of living of the poor benighted Afghani/Vietnamese peasants by giving them health care and education.

This is what gets trotted out by each administration to persuade the history-ignorant/oblivious American public to back its wars of imperial expansion.

In Vietnam this young volunteer warrior saw fellow Americans die and go home maimed. I saw Vietnamese killed and maimed by the score. I believed in what I was fighting for until I saw that the Vietnamese did not believe in what I was fighting for. That's why their resistance was so strong. That's why they NEVER gave up on trying to kill us and expel us from THEIR country. The same is true of Afghanistan. It's just another feudal society that has risen against its oppressors.

Obscene fortunes were made on the war effort in Vietnam. The same companies and industries are making obscene profits on our War on Terra.

Be patriotic, but be aware. All is not as the corporate media portray it to be.

[closeupready]

78. Bullshit. You obviously know NOTHING about Afghanistan's history.

n/t

[GreenArrow]

86. Ah, yes, the white man's burden.

.

[Cherchez la Femme]

99. And now we have lots & lots of minorities to fight our wars!

Lucky how that worked out for us, huh?

White Mans Burden has turned into Manifest Destiny has turned into USA: World Police;
even though we can't win any of these police actions
er, actually the right word is wars!

[izzybeans]

124. Etymology reveals a few things

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paki

[lunatica]

15. I'm not flaming but I do question what you think would be doing something good

I just can't see any good outcome coming out of Afghanistan. We're meddling in another country, and that never ends well. They're fundamentally different from us. They have no idea of what constitutes a Democracy, even the flimsiest kind. They are tribal theocratic religious and local factions and issues. They are still a strong Patriarchy and there's no evidence of any change to that anywhere in the country.

If you mean we could build schools and reconstruct the damage we've done we should do that without the military. Our problem is we bomb the crap out of countries but then we leave and never fix our mess. We leave them so poor and so destroyed that there's no way they can recover without fighting for their tribal supremacy.

And at this point what good can we do that would ever outweigh the bad we've done?

[Common Sense Party]

56. So are you saying the only thing to do is "leave and [not] fix our mess"?

Just keep doing what we've always done?

I agree with you on everything you have said. I just think that we owe them SOMETHING after having torn the crap out of their country for the past 8 years. We can keep building schools, but we'll need the military to protect the builders. Then, when we leave, the Taliban will come back and blow up the schools because they're not teaching what Allah wants.

We may need to help them get to some sort of stability. It might not be a democracy, it might be some screwed-up system of tribal cooperation, but something where the radical nutjobs can't come back to power.

I don't know. As I said, I'm torn.

[yurbud]

25. good would be building schools and providing alternative economy to poppies not

protecting pipelines and making sure the right warlords profit from the poppy trade by killing people.

[digidigido]

65. Good would be a Manhattan Project for alternative energy, get the hell out

and find alternatives for the oil, and not plunder our treasure in a war we
cannot win. All one has to do is study history, and then ask what are we
doing differently. History has seen Afghanistan defeat all its enemies
including Russia. We don't seem to be having a hell of a lot more success.
The reason Russia failed was not the cold war. It fell when they were fighting
in Afghanistan. We didn't so much win the cold war, but won the collapse
of their economy as they got bogged down in an un winnable war.
Those who ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them

[RetroLounge]

98. So when do you ship out, tough guy?

:puke:

RL

[tridim]

2. The President is not stupid.

Jebus freaking christ.

[Pirate Smile]

16. I'm always amazed at people who act like Obama is not fully aware of the history of

Afghanistan and the Soviets and others - like he has no clue how it becomes a quagmire.

I'm not saying that is how the OP sees him but I've seen a lot of people talk about him like they know more about the situation and history. We know he knows about it. The problem is he still has to deal with it and the mess Bush left by diverting everything to Iraq.

[AllentownJake]

3. Damned if he does Damned if he doesn't

If he pulls out, he lost the war on terror, if he sends in more troops he's responsible for the quagmire.

Personally, I'd take the option that results in the least amount of lost lives by my citizens.

[HughBeaumont]

34. The simple truth is that with a withdraw, it absolves both.

The Failure Fuhrer started and continued this debacle. Not only that, but he was the first wartime president to cut taxes while doing so.

The "War On Terr" was a right wing battle for which there would be no "winner". It'd be the same thing as trying to exterminate household insects on your counter using a sprayer full of old orange juice. Sure, you'd drown a few, but a whole lot more are gonna be coming in their place once it dries.

These boondoggles need to END and end fast. Our country is being destroyed at the behest of the Corporatists and the Pentasewer they're in bed with.

[cliffordu]

4. Your mom called and wants to know if you need any more cheetos

[billh58]

22. +1

:applause:

[tridim]

26. Self Delete

[cliffordu]

54. Damit. Did I miss a really great snark, here??

If I did will you repost it??

[tridim]

57. Responded to the wrong thread..

Pretty hilariously too. :)

[cliffordu]

60. I believe ya!

[closeupready]

95. No, I'm fine on cheetos; I am poutraged, though, that I'm still waiting for my pony -

tell her to stop playing chess, because it's been x months, and though I know it's too soon to criticize the eminent magnificence of His Excellency Barack Obama, .... (think I got them all there)

[Cherchez la Femme]

101. Aww, how cute

But you forgot Pajamas! Got any other patronizing, meaningless, right wing slurs? I'm sure you broke his heart. :D

[cliffordu]

110. Oh, LOok!!! his mom is HERE!!! Didja bring the cheetos???

[blindpig]

6. He's just an employee

Your real beef is with his employers, the masters of capital.

[gateley]

8. I sincerely don't understand what he/they would hope to

accomplish by remaining or adding to our presence in Afghanistan?

What is the GOAL?

I heard on the radio this morning that a Dem who's known to be a Hawk, is against a troop increase. Naturally, I forget who this person is (it was a woman), but it seems as though more and more are turning away from further engagement. I hope the trend continues and Obama heeds. And thanks to my guy Biden for being one of the first to try to put the brakes on this.

[Warpy]

11. The very best thing we can do there

is use the army to protect crews while we do massive rebuilding. This is happening in Kabul, according to someone I know who is on the ground. I don't know if it's happening in other areas, as well.

Then we need to get the hell out. Even if the Taliban gain control for a while, it won't last long and what people will remember the longest is how the Americans came in and repaired what the Soviets destroyed and the Taliban never managed to rebuild.

That's the only way to win in Afghanistan.

[ipaint]

12. Grayson is spot on.

I think that the basic premise that we can alter afghan society is greatly flawed. Afghanistan is simply the part of Asia that was never occupied by the Russians or the English in the Great Game. It's not a country; it's not even a place. It's just an empty place on the map. It's terra incognita. People who live there are a welter of different tribes, different language groups, different religious beliefs.
All over the country you find different people who have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that we call them Afghans, and they don't even call themselves Afghans. They're Tajiks or they're Pashtuns, or they're Hazzaras or someone else. The things that hold them together are simply the things that we try to create artificially.

And the idea that we could transform that society or any other society through aid I think is entirely questionable. I've never seen it happen; probably never will happen. If you go to the Stan countries north of Afghanistan, and I've been to all of them; what you find is that the way that the Russians altered that society was by crushing it. Stalin killed half a million Muslims in Kazakhstan, in Turkmenistan, in Kyrgyzstan, in Uzbekistan.

He simply sliced off the head of that society in order to remake it in the image that he wanted. And I think that we would have to do no less if we wanted to remake Afghanistan in our image. We'd have to destroy it in order to save it, and I don't think the American people are ever going to do that to anybody. So I think that the underlining premise is simply wrong.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howie-klein/alan-grayson-on-afghanist_b_315087.html

Can't say we weren't warned.

[Echo In Light]

14. Puppets fulfilling the roles they were hired to uphold

[kestrel91316]

18. Thank you for your concern. Enjoy your stay.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

27. The OP is right

No matter how you feel about Obama, it is pretty obvious that Afghanistan is unwinnable. Sorry. Hero worship does not negate history.

[Oregone]

30. Being anti-war is sooooooooo trollish

[ecstatic]

41. We're all anti-war, but there's a right way and a wrong way

to get one's point across.

[rucky]

48. How's the "right way" been working out for us?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. We don't know yet.

Considering that Bush never actually tried to fight the Taliban.

[Are_grits_groceries]

66. Russia did for 10 years.

They threw everything in the book at them. What are we going to do that will be so different?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Is there a world superpower secretly backing the Taliban?

Well then it's a case of apples and oranges, isn't it?

[Are_grits_groceries]

77. Do you know what their sources of income are?

Now who would be willing to help them to keep us tied up?? I can think of a few people, and they aren't all our enemies.

[Are_grits_groceries]

80. here you go:Many Sources Feed Taliban’s War Chest

WASHINGTON — The Taliban in Afghanistan are running a sophisticated financial network to pay for their insurgent operations, raising hundreds of millions of dollars from the illicit drug trade, kidnappings, extortion and foreign donations that American officials say they are struggling to cut off.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban have imposed an elaborate system to tax the cultivation, processing and shipment of opium, as well as other crops like wheat grown in the territory they control, American and Afghan officials say. In the Middle East, Taliban leaders have sent fund-raisers to Arab countries to keep the insurgency’s coffers brimming with cash.

Estimates of the Taliban’s annual revenue vary widely. Proceeds from the illicit drug trade alone range from $70 million to $400 million a year, according to Pentagon and United Nations officials. By diversifying their revenue stream beyond opium, the Taliban are frustrating American and NATO efforts to weaken the insurgency by cutting off its economic lifelines, the officials say.

Despite efforts by the United States and its allies in the last year to cripple the Taliban’s financing, using the military and intelligence, American officials acknowledge they barely made a dent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/world/asia/19taliban.html?hp

[JVS]

104. If it were a secret, we wouldn't know

[JVS]

105. That's just not true

[Orsino]

32. But can he afford to "cut and run"?

It's the moral choice, but will the TV permit us to cheer a withdrawal?

It's unfortunate that our president has already committed to increasing our footprint there.

[Cherchez la Femme]

102. Let's look at etymology...

Where does the 'cut' come from: Cutting ones losses.

What a terribly stupid thing to do, I guess! :crazy:

[leave iraq]

45. I love the pray at 51:15 into the program, what fools!

[bridgit]

67. Agreed most sincerely a curiouser choice of words

[Sinti]

58. You cannot win this war with bombs and guns

unless you define winning as killing nearly everyone in the country. Winning when you are attacked means sending the attacker home with his tail between his legs. What does winning mean when you attack a nation in order to apprehend a handful of violent lunatics?

Troops home - civil engineers in to help rebuild and such. You win by making peace.

[Are_grits_groceries]

62. That won't happen.

Who is going to protect the civil engineers and builders? It will be a long time before we can waltz out and leave them to do that, if ever.

[Sinti]

88. I know - and I'm not holding my breath - no more killing would be enough

to make me smile. The general is over-estimating to make himself appear more important, IMO. War can be good for your career. I hope the $10 a day Taliban get paid by us and other good people to do different work. That will help everyone concerned.

One of these days, though, we're going to have to man up and own up as a nation to what we've done in the ME and elsewhere in the world post-WWII. When President Obama was honest, and stated that were wrong in unseating Mosaddeq in Iran, to put "friend to American Business" the Shah in place, I was hoping we were taking a turn toward human-ness.

We have great relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that kill people for stating that they deserve a better life than they have, that behead people in public square, have legal slavery of every kind, and spread this malignant form of Islam throughout the world. We are more than willing to use our soldiers to protect the royal family from their own people.

We used the people Afghanistan to give the Soviets their Vietnam, and some of us are proud of it - like because they're poor and in a foreign country they aren't human at all.

It wasn't new behavior to 43. W was just a lot more blatant about his total disregard for human life.

IMO, it violates our national moral code to behave the way we have for over half a century now - and we do these things in the name of United Fruit Company, or Standard Oil, or whoever has the most $$ and the most friends in the government. Our soldiers don't join the military to go around the world acting like thugs on behalf of the corporate masters - I find it unconscionable.

I'm looking for further steps in the direction of civility and decency with regard to the rest of the world. I always do with a new president - even W, though everyone in my house knew the economy would go in the tank, and we were going to war with Iraq and maybe some other folks, because that's what they do.

Another concern, I think, is that a lot of these soldiers are National Guardsmen who have been kept in country so long, via stop-loss or whatever, that they don't have jobs anymore. They are going to need jobs, it's the least we can do.

Maybe we should take the money back from the war profiteers, via laws against war profiteering, to pay for what they broke, and then toss some in jail and/or make them build homes with Habitat or something.

I sure am glad I'm not the president, and can just sit here and opine without consequence. :D

[Altoid_Cyclist]

71. At this point, I say let the chickenhawks boo all they want and start getting us out.

We can stay there as long as we want in the futile hope of "stabilizing" a country that will never be stabilized by any outside force. The Taliban can wait out any foreign occupier and the more innocent Afghani citizens that are killed, the more that we will be vilified and used as a recruiting tool by the same people that we are supposedly there to drive out. This is one hell of a vicious circle that needs to be broken at some point. Now seems to be as good a time as any to break the circle. The cost in US lives, Afghan lives and money just to try to protect a pipeline is just too steep.

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1057542.html

http://www.costofwar.com/

[Ozymanithrax]

72. What are the victory conditions in Afghanistan?

What are we willing to pay to achieve those ends, in lives and our economy?
How long will it take to achieve those conditions?
If we fail to meet those conditions, what is our plan?
What Will America suffer if we fail?

We should all remember that Afghanistan was the rock that finally broke the Soviet Union. With big infusions of oil and natural gas money, and a radical change in economy, Russia is only now managing to reassert a place of dominance on the world stage.

Before we push hard for leaving or staying we should try to answer the above questions, and not from a liberal point of view, but more in light of Realpolitik.

[rug]

75. This isn't about Obama. It's about ending the war.

[closeupready]

76. Well I don't know if I would put it quite like that, but he is definitely WRONG if he thinks it.

Nor will it help matters in Pakistan or Iraq. We need to bring them all home now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. Well, LBJ, Nixon, and Shrub, weren't fucked by losing wars...oh, wait.

[Toasterlad]

81. No...Actually, WE Are.

[RyboSlybo]

83. I regret my vote...

I bought into all the bullshit just like all of you did...

Still waiting for that change Obama promised us...

He is a great man don't get me wrong but it is becomming more and more clear to me that his inexperiance is really starting to show.

If anything he is picking up right where dumbo Bush left off...

We have all been had...

He is going to continue this stupid fucking war... actually he will escalate it.

And I know you all believe it is in the name of 911 and the war on terror but this one is all about Oil as well... very depressing... If you don't believe me just Google "trans Afghanastan pipeline" do a little research and you will start to see they feeding us all a huge plate of bullshit.

But at least he is stoping the Fed war on legal marijuana in states where it has been deemed legal for medical purposes... I guess that's something...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. lol

[billh58]

142. You must not

have been paying attention during the Primary Campaign. Candidate Obama never wavered from his commitment to combat the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and their support of international terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and to capture, or kill, OBL. He was also calling for a troop increase in Afghanistan as far back as 2007:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/20/obama.afghanistan/

Those who believe that the Taliban and their Al Qaeda allies are just harmless farmers trying to make a living, have been hoodwinked by the pacifism-at-any-cost crowd. The leadership of the Taliban, and its War Lords, were the people who facilitated the Al Qaeda attack on 9/11, and have committed (and continue to commit) horrible atrocities against the non-Pashtun peoples of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Dubya administration ignored Afghanistan in their mad rush to illegally invade Iraq, and allowed the Taliban and Al Qaeda to regroup and regain their former strength.

By the same token, Candidate Obama has never wavered from his commitment to pull the USA out of the senseless war in Iraq:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/politics/story/2599083/

The reality on the ground may not be allowing him to move as swiftly as some would like, but the pullout from Iraq is in progress.

And lastly, President Obama did not start either one of these wars -- he inherited them, and is actively ending our involvement in Iraq, while attempting to stabilize Afghanistan to the point where we can safely leave. Had McSame won the election, we would not only be mired down in two endless wars, but looking at a third with Iran. The Nobel Peace Prize committee recognized that fact, and so should we.

[ddeclue]

89. The war in Afghanistan is different than the Iraq War.

I support going after al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan because that is where the leadership is.

This isn't "Bush's" war..this isn't "Obama's" war - this is America's war.

I certainly did NOT support Bush going into Iraq as that was an optional war based on false premises.

That said, I never complained about Afghanistan with Bush because that is a direct response to 9/11 and an appropriate one at that.

I'm not about to start now that Obama is in charge.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[Nederland]

92. I agree

The Iraq war is/was winnable, Afghanistan is not.

[and-justice-for-all]

90. The only war worth fighting is if we were invaded....

or bombed by another country, all other occupations is just imperialism.

[closeupready]

93. I agree.

n/t

[SIMPLYB1980]

94. What do you call 911? A pillow fight?

Taliban harbored Al Qaeda and are and have been getting what they deserved.

[Sebastian Doyle]

107. I call it Reichstag II

well... you asked.

[SIMPLYB1980]

128. Then you are foolish.

But hey keep believing conspiracy theories that make us look as dumb as the teabaggers, and birthers.

[Sebastian Doyle]

134. Says the guy who thinks we can "win" in Afghanistan

nothing more foolish than that.

[MrMickeysMom]

108. From the FBI's 10 most wanted list on OBL...

DESCRIPTION

Date of Birth: 1957 Hair: Brown
Place of Birth: Saudi Arabia Eyes: Brown
Height: 6' 4" to 6' 6" Complexion: Olive
Weight: Approximately 160 pounds Sex: Male
Build: Thin Nationality: Saudi Arabian
Occupation: Unknown
Remarks: Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist organization known as Al-Qaeda, "The Base". He is left-handed and walks with a cane.
Scars and Marks: None

Note the following and tell me why we don't like him for masterminding 911:

CAUTION

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

CONSIDERED ARMED AND EXTREMELY DANGEROUS

IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION CONCERNING THIS PERSON, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FBI OFFICE OR THE NEAREST U.S. EMBASSY OR CONSULATE.

REWARD

The Rewards For Justice Program, United States Department of State, is offering a reward of up to $25 million for information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction of Usama Bin Laden. An additional $2 million is being offered through a program developed and funded by the Airline Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.


June 1999
Poster Revised November 2001

[Selatius]

120. Al Qaeda is not a nation-state actor. It is a non-government entity. This is a police matter.

We didn't deploy the Army when Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building. If Timothy McVeigh were in Switzerland or some other non-extradition country that doesn't extradite to countries with death penalties, what would you say we do? Bomb Geneva?

[billh58]

144. No, Al Qaeda

is not a "nation/state," but its protectors and allies, the Taliban, were. And, they have geared up to the point of becoming a major "actor" again. This is all thanks to the Dubya administration for focusing on the illegal war against the Iraqi people, while allowing the Taliban to regroup and gain strength. Our involvement in Iraq has been their (and Al Qaeda's) greatest recruiting tool.

Thanks to our bumbling neoconservative PNAC war-for-profit strategy in Iraq, the Taliban has the potential to become stronger than they were before 9/11. If we were to abruptly pull out now (as the pacifism-at-any-cost crowd would like us to) there is a very real possibility that not only would Afghanistan fall back into the hands of the radical Taliban (along with their Al Qaeda terrorist allies), but so would Pakistan and their nuclear cache of weapons.

[and-justice-for-all]

121. Go back and do your homework...

Iraq or Afghanistan had NOTHING to do with that act of religious terrorism...ZERO. Notta. Zilch. Null.

[SIMPLYB1980]

132. I think you need to do more homework.

You obviously don't know what's going on.

[and-justice-for-all]

133. Oh really??! Do tell then...

:eyes: I am versed in what is going on, but thanks for your concern.

[SIMPLYB1980]

135. How about you come over to this thread and

tell me I haven't done my homework.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8707929

[and-justice-for-all]

139. Ok, so...what does that have to do with 9/11?

I completely disagree and I think you still need to be schooled..

Do I think the Taliban are bad people? sure. Do I give a flying fuck what they do? No. Those regions need to get a grip on their domestic issues, like keeping such bands of rebels under control.

What the US is doing is occupying a region they have no business being in, getting our people killed for no reason. Those rebels will not rest and will not stop, can anything be learned from history? apparently not, so here we are in Vietghanistan where the natives despise our presents in their country and just want us to leave.

neither Iraq or Afghanistan have anything to do with 9/11; now, it seems, that Pakistan is the concern. here is an idea, since the majority of the hijackers were Saudi, lets invade them. Oh, what, we cant because they are our "friends"...:eyes:

"Only a strong Pakistani democracy can help us move toward my third goal" blah blah blah...

[SIMPLYB1980]

140. Yawn.

:eyes:

[conscious evolution]

145. Yes.You do need to wake up.

[SIMPLYB1980]

146. You need to wake up.

:P

[Nederland]

91. They said the same thing about Iraq

They said that violence in Iraq would never go down until the US military presence went down. Well, we had the surge and violence went down. Way down. Yes, I know that a great deal of the reduction in violence came not from the increased troop presence but the Anbar awakening movement, but the point still applies: those that said the violence would continue until we withdrew our troops were wrong. Dead wrong.

That being said, Afghanistan is a different place, and different rules may apply. We shall see.

[EFerrari]

111. Violence threatens Barack Obama’s pledge to pull troops out of Iraq

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6881581.ece

Even George Will didn't think the surge worked and that was several cycles of violence ago:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/by_bushs_own_standard_surge_ha.html

[merh]

112. They are drawing down

Army brigade's deployment to Iraq canceled
The Associated Press • October 17, 2009

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is canceling plans to send a 3,500-member Army brigade to Iraq, a move that speeds the drawdown there and could free up forces as President Barack Obama considers sending new troops to Afghanistan.

The 1st Infantry Brigade Combat Team from the 10th Mountain Division based in Fort Drum, New York, had been scheduled to relieve another combat brigade in Iraq in January. But the brigade will no longer deploy and will now return to the Army’s pool of available combat forces, the Defense Department said Saturday.

“This decision was based on a thorough assessment of the security environment in Iraq and reflects the continued improvement in the ability of the Iraqi Security Forces to safeguard Iraqi citizens and institutions,” the statement said.

The U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, has recommended from as many as 80,000 more troops to as few as 10,000 for the war in Afghanistan — but favors a compromise of 40,000 more forces. Such additional forces would not be deployed until early next year at the soonest, and it is not clear how they would be fully compiled.

Obama has said he would make up his mind on additional troops in the coming weeks, and no announcement is expected before November.

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200991017004

[EFerrari]

113. Right but on our political timetable, not because George Bush's splurge "worked".

[merh]

116. Hell, nothing GWB did has worked.

You couldn't pay me enough to take the job to try to clean up that pig's mess.

[EFerrari]

118. No kidding And if Obama's was a Republican admin,

they'd spend the next four years reminding everyone of that every day.

[merh]

119. Oh, most certainly

But all we get now is how he hasn't done anything.

I was glad to read that in his NOLA speech he said he wasn't tired, he was just getting started.

The mess he found himself in is comparable to the 9th Ward's Katrina mess. The 9th Ward homes sat in mud and slime for days before the water receded and then years of neglect made the thought of rebuilding unimaginable.

The WH sat in 8 years of waste and filth, it was left unattended for far too long.

Obama is a very brave man.

[Nederland]

136. Obama has done nothing differently in Iraq

All he has done is stood by the Status of Forces agreement (SOFA) that Bush negotiated. Everything is laid out for him, he just follows the plan. Withdrawls occur on a preset timetable based opon preset conditions (i.e., withdraw X troops from area Y, provided violence levels are below Z).

Afghanistan is where he has real choices, and I hope he makes the right ones.

[Nederland]

137. What do you mean by "our" timetable?

The timetable was negotiated by Bush, Obama is stuck with it.

[EFerrari]

138. Yes, Obama is stuck with the Bush timetable that was objected to

by the same people you erroneously claimed were dead wrong about the surge. Or, he's stuck with it to a degree.

[Nederland]

143. Erroneously claimed?

Yeah, the surge (which, BTW, was not only about increasing troop strength, but a change in tactics) failed miserably:

[coconut22]

97. Have you spoken to Obama recently..

and has he told you what decision he has come to relating to Afghanistan or is this some type of spin because I don't recall the President or his staff telling the American people what his decision is on Afghanistan or is this some more media speculation.

I am so tired of the republicons leaking out what they want in reality and trying to make the public believe that Obama is weak if he doesn't bomb every country he disagrees with...

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amborin]

115. the US certainly needs a strong presence in Afghanistan

given developments in Pakistan and the links between the Taleban and Al Queda, we need some force in Afghanistan

[and-justice-for-all]

122. Completely disagree...nt

[unhappycamper]

123. They don't call Afghanistan the "Graveyard of Empires" for no reason.

BTW, what is the stated mission? What is the stated exit strategy?

Personally, I think throwing away $180 million a day in that shithole is not the correct thing to do.