Does anyone have any info about "EST," or "Landmark"

[MNDemNY]

There is a story about to break in my state concerning possible misuse of public dollars by a University prof. Just wondering.Wiki seems to have been scrubbed.

[Adsos Letter]

1. If you are in Delaware...

a very cursory search for Delaware "EST" returned only a database for Chick DNA at the University of Delaware:

http://www.chickest.udel.edu/

I tried Delaware "Landmark" but you can imagine the type of search returns I got...your state appears to have a great deal of historical significance. :D

[MNDemNY]

22. It has nothing to do with "chickDNA" but interestingly enough....

[Barack_America]

2. Yes. Landmark education is the current name, "est" was the name of the 70's cult....

...that spawned it.

Landmark education basically acts as a pyramid scheme marketing cult, where people pay ridiculous amounts of money for self-help seminars.

Here's their website:
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/

I had a neighbor who was crazy into this cult, prompting my friends and I to read up on it.

[Lex]

3. yes, that's what I found out too

when some friends were involved for a while

stay far away

[Cassandra]

7. Having been through the Forum myself...

as well as many other courses they offered (I walked away shortly after Werner left the organization) I would say it's not a cult but does attract people who want to join a cult (authoritarian followers). It did me some good; dragging me out of a self-pitying frame of mind I had gotten mired in and showing me different ways to think about myself and my life and I'm still friends with a number of people I met there (we've all stopped contact with Landmark) but I eventually found the approach too masculine (and authoritarian?) and left to join a women's group.

[NYC_SKP]

4. Here You Go. EST reminded me of Erhard Seminars Training in the 70-80's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Erhard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

And tied to Landmark Education here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Education

Any Help???

:donut:

[annabanana]

6. EST **IS** Erhard Seminars Training in the 70-80's

If you want to pay hundreds of dollars to get brainwashed. . go, have fun,. .but never call me again.

I had a few friends go completely whack-a-doodle on it back in the day. One of them turned into a babbling idiot when I mentioned to her that "even a 'self-actualized' snowball has a snowball's chance in Hell"

(It was pretty funny, actually. .She was a total lost cause by then)

[NYC_SKP]

9. Yes, I know. My girlfriend at the time was sucked into EST...

We were living in on the lower east side.

EST was EVERYTHING to her... :eyes:

I lost touch with her until very recently through Facebook.

She's doing OK, being mystical in Seattle area.

:donut:

[blm]

13. heheh....the set up is to tear down your ego and then......sell it back to you.

Scientology does the same basic thing.

[Barack_America]

14. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. nt

[MNDemNY]

24. All wiki entries seem to be corrupted. "sock puppets"

[NYC_SKP]

32. Yeah...

Not much critical material there.

[MNDemNY]

28. Thanks.

Wiki seems really "cleansed" That really points to wackos.

[conscious evolution]

5. Stay away

I know several people who have been through it.
For most of them the results have not been pretty.One young lady came very close to loosing her business due to the false sense of optomism the courses instilled in her.Everyone I know who has taken their courses has a bad case of putting form before function.It seems they all have lost the ability to recognize their limits or they severely overestimate their abilities.
I have also been told by someone who went through the EST thing way back when that the hidden goal of the organization is to create a polyamorous society.(Nothing wrong with polyamorousim it is just that I feel that such a goal should be stated upfront instead of hidden)

When the story breaks please post links to it.

Edit to add:BarackAmerica is right.There is a strong undercurrent of a pyramid marketing scheme to it.
Also some disclosure:As a woo er I would normally be for something like this.When a woo-er says beware.....

[sui generis]

8. I did one of the the "Insight" seminars

it wasn't a cult; it was commercialized "self-help" before there was such a thing. I knew Peter McWilliams personally as a friend.

There were no hidden goals - what a silly thing to say. The ideas of "polyamorism" (what a word, what a word) were closer to "love as thou will", meaning don't deform yourself by trying to conform where you don't fit (my paraphrase).

I had a positive experience, and I can discuss it without ridiculous assertions either way. Ask me anything.

[Mz Pip]

11. My experience was a bit different

I was taken by a friend to an introductory meeting. We filled out cards at the beginning, which seemed harmless enough. Afterwards, I started getting phone calls, sometime 2 -3 a day, often at my job trying to get me to join. No matter how many times I said no they kept calling. They would tell me that they knew I was really interested. This went on for months.

My friend did a couple of their seminars and when he told them he couldn't afford to do any more he was told to sell his house.

There is certainly value in whatever brings about self awareness, but I found that the approach they used bordered on harassment.

[sui generis]

20. was that "insight" or "EST"

I did hear that EST was freaky. I think maybe the toned down "Insight" spin-off tried to distance itself from the original sedona sweatlodge. I do remember they asked attendees to give up cigarettes and any other dependencies during the day's attendance; with the result that about 10% got up and walked out.

The spinoff of the Insight seminars was authored as "Life 101" - Oprah featured it on her show in the 90's. It was a bit bumper-stickerish, but a lot of times people like a mantra to chew on, kind of like a favorite t-shirt to wear around the house until you remember your other favorite t-shirt.

I do remember the EST guys were all a little weirded out (NYC, 1983 - 1985), so that must not have been as affirming as they would have liked. Or maybe it attracted weird people. Who knows. :P

[Mz Pip]

30. I think it was EST

This was in the mid 70s. I remember hearing about how people would go to these huge seminars and have to lay on the floor for hours with no bathroom breaks. Not my thing. I probably would have ended up getting in a fight if someone told me I couldn't go pee.

[conscious evolution]

29. Same thing happened to me

I went to a friends graduation.Afterwards I started getting the calls.Two or three a day for weeks.I finally told them that the hard sell was starting to really turn me off of the program.

[philly_bob]

21. I'm surprised to hear McWilliams was into EST.

I knew he was into general self-help positive-thinking books -- but part of the EST con machine? I hope not.

[sui generis]

23. I think he went to the EST instructor training

but spun off after that.

He was a decent guy - it's a shame the crap that happened to him.

[philly_bob]

31. Here's some info on McWilliams. I met him and liked him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_McWilliams

Generally, I would say his biography seems to point to a few missteps, but largely a good, sincere guy.

His final crusade was for Medical Marijuana.

[Mopar151]

18. Didja know

Werner Erhard tried to make himself into a race driver - rented tracks for private practice, spent money like water. Results? Zip. Not even a trophy from Stump Junction International Speedway....

[Tracer]

10. I was pressured into going to an EST seminar in the '70s.

I absolutely hated it. Thought it was ridiculous and manipulative -- and worse, many people got extremely upset (crying etc).

I walked out.

[HopeHoops]

12. EST is a money-sucking cult

I worked for a company in the early 80's that pressured EVERYONE to go to EST seminars (on your own dime). They were zombies. Anyone who refused was shunned. Those that went along with it were treated like pets. I was happy to leave that place.

[Lex]

17. real estate agents around here

almost all are sucked in by Landmark

[MNDemNY]

27. EEK. That sounds like what is going on now.

'cept it involves (maybe) public employees, and others.

[conscious evolution]

33. I know what you mean about the shunning

The young lady I know that almost lost her business to the false optism-She pressured her workers to take the course.The ones who took it still work there.The ones who did not were all laid off or fired eventually.
I have also experienced the shunning from her and others after I declined their invitation to join.I have also noticed that those same people no longer call me for electrical services since then.While I miss the business I do not miss having to listen to their sales pitch while working.Nothing worse than being annoyed while working in hot panels.

[PassingFair]

15. Mother Jones recently ran an excellent article about the current "EST" movement incarnation....

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2009/07/landmark-42-hours-500-65-breakdowns


Entertaining and informative!

[MNDemNY]

26. Thank you.

[90-percent]

16. Landmark Forum

I went through this about five years ago and found it very rigorous and uplifting. Got right to the core of how I chose to conduct my half assed life and what to do about it.

My main impression is that it dismantles and then rebuilds your personal concepts of what it means to run your life effectively. Overall, I found it very constructive and not very cult like in the least.

There's a lot of hard work involved in learning to follow and understand their principles. It involved thinking and reason, not brainwashing. I went through their weekend deal. It was about 6 hours Friday, and 12 hours both Saturday and Sunday, and then about 3 hours Monday night, as I recall. It costs about $500-600, but it sure isn't any Scientology all your wealth now belong to us vibe. Not in any way, shape or form.

-90% Jimmy

[Starry Messenger]

19. Here is a page full of links:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html

They've recently morphed into a business called the Vanto Group. I've been keeping an eye out for more info, since they seem to be mucking around with union leaders.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html

Can you PM me a link to the story when it breaks? I collect research on this group and its affiliates.

[MNDemNY]

25. Any insight into the wiki entries? all seem "corrupted".

And I will PM you.