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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:32 PM
Original message
Why hasn't there been a "revolution?"
I don't necessarily mean in the traditional, violent sense and I am not advocating violence. But there have been few protests (except "teagaggers" who don't really count), not many strikes or work stoppages or other disruptions. For all the "anger" there has been little civil disobedience, no terrorism (they just arrested a guy in Massachusetts who couldn't even get a gun) and not many "Network" moments in the land.

We're still in Iraq, and might be ready to step up the fight in Afghanistan, hemorrhaging dollars every day we stay. The Street has taken the People's money and made a mint off it (I don't care as much if the shareholders get it but the managers are another story), unemployment is as bad as it's been for 25 years and kids are dying in these wars. The Empire is fading, which might not be so bad in some ways, but could be catastrophic in others.

Here are possible "anti-revolutionary" reasons I can fathom:

1. We're too "pharmaceuticaled" to care.

2. We're too comfortable.

3. The authorities have the whole country under tight surveillance - internet, videoed, photographed, wiretapped - locked down or locked up.

4. There's trust in Obama.

5. We're too busy trying to survive.

6. Things are getting better.

7. None of it does any good.

What do you think?

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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. all of the above and more
I'd say more than a few people - the FOX audience, for instance - don't really know what's going on as well.

But mostly I think because the majority of people would rather see Obama get things done well and us fix these problems through the system (including repairing the system where necessary)
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. No one has enough money for torches and pitchforks.



:shrug:


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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. Because Revolutions eat their own children.
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 02:40 PM by denem
Chickens have a good reason to fear omelets.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think people realize how bad it's really become, the old frog in the
boiling water analogy (which I've heard isn't really true, but gets the point across nicely).

And, if the majority DOES really start to suffer, I think they'd be too afraid. I'm thinking Nazi Germany here -- just too afraid for their own lives and the lives of their families. I'm not sure I wouldn't respond in like. Don't know how I'll respond/react until we actually get to that point.

And (again) I know for me, I'm very hopeful with Obama, Biden and likes of Franken, Grayson, Sanders, Dennis, and others of like mind having a presence in DC.


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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. #2, I guess. The primary reason IMO is the post WWII prosperity.
We are still riding that wave, though it is coming to an end.

I'm reading A People's History of the United States right now. It's shocking how pacified we are compared to 100 years ago.

I sincerely hope that the civil rights movement and downtrend of (overt) racism will remain intact through the coming downturns. We must remove all obstacles to unity, and keep them removed.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Fear of arrest.
One arrest in America, even for a misdemeanor, will essentially end your working life. Europeans don't care because they have better social safety nets and they also have universal health care; they're also more unionized. European governments also fear their people, not the other way around. Americans are so tethered and indentured to their jobs, they absolutely cannot lose them under any circumstance.

Corporations own us lock, stock and barrel, and we're too scared of ARREST, ARREST, ARREST to resist or overtake them. We think marching on Washington when cable networks won't broadcast it is going to do some good.

You want to impress me, bust through a gated community and invade the homes of the corporatists. Invade board rooms. Politicians aid and abet them all . . .. the wealthy old man cabal is the source of all this. Force them to start biting bitter pills or we're all doomed.

We live in a nation where a person's success and future is almost completely dependent on how gainfully they're employed. And that has to stop.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Things" would have to get worse, for more people, before a revolution.
Revolutions are disruptive and dangerous. Quality of life has to get so bad that enough people say to themselves "Risking my own death is better than this."
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. #2 - We are too damn comfortable and cannot bear to give up our lifestyle (even if it does
not come to that). It is the fear of losing that lifestyle that they prey on. A major factor is that the US picks wars in other countries, so we do not suffer the consequences of our military adventures. We are a nation of crybabies.

#7 - A recognition that there really is nothing WE can do about the way the powerful run this country.

The other reasons you list are important to different people, but I think #2 & #4 apply to most of us.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. #2) Americans are too comfortable.
Look at the past situations like this. Approaching depression-like unemployment numbers and with national debt soaring, Americans sit every night watching Dancing With the Stars easting their McDonald's and TV dinners. America is at war, and has been for 8 years however war only effects those who care to listen. As long as food and gas are cheap and we have cable TV, we're litle little sheep. And for those Americans with a little more hubris, give them a token voice (internet forums) and they'll settle down like little lambs as well. At any other point in history, there would long been riots. Not today... Americans are too comfortable to care.

Americans are just too comfortable and choose to ignore what they don't like around them.
Until Americans can't control what they experience, they will continue to ignore America's problems.
Until the plight has reached most of Main Street's doorsteps, The People don't care.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. 1 - 4, basically. And as George Carlin alluded to, the "pussification" of Americans.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. wow
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Because people are generally content.
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 02:44 PM by Occam Bandage
Few people are actually impacted by either war; unless you're serving or have a close family member serving, the wars only exist in the abstract. As for the recession? People have lost money, yes, and some have lost jobs, but most people continue to get by. For most people, the recession just means going to the movies instead of going on vacation. And really, nobody gives a shit if "the Empire is fading."

Frankly, things aren't nearly bad enough for revolution of any sort. Had Congress passed no credit bailouts, and had they passed no stimulus, then it's possible that things might have gotten bad enough that drastic changes in our society could have occurred. As for a "revolution?" Things would have to get significantly worse than they were even during the Great Depression for that to happen.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. Because we now have a MSM that would make Goebbels proud
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Good point
I'm so used to the MSM I forget about their control ability.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
62. The propoganda/mind control is a big part of the problem
If the media were to show the lefts demonstrations without paiting us as anarchists and hooligans more people would rise up.
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. If you're really interested in the possibilities of a revolution may I suggest...
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 02:45 PM by Viking12
The book, It Could Happen Here: America on the Brink, by Yale fellow Bruce Judson.

I read the book after hearing him on the NPR syndicate show, On Point

http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/10/will-inequality-lead-to-revolution
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks for the tip nt
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Thanks for providing that
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
55. Thank you for the link......n/t
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. No Charismatic Leader With Balls Is Allowed to Stand
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think it has to do with all of the mindsets you listed
What we don't know is how they break down percentage wise. It could be a combination for some.

For me is seems many people trust there is hope because that was the selling point and there are many who still are doing just fine. For many well even if they wanted to protest they can't afford to go to DC or take time off work to join in.

There seems to be a lack of interest in protests either because they so far have failed to do anything before, Certainly didn't stop the attack on Iraq or get impeachment on the table.

Pretty difficult to say why.

I do feel people are realizing their reps are not listening and that may be the largest reason.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Revolutions are not as simple, or as formulaic as we have been led to believe.
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 02:50 PM by SidneyCarton
They are often a combination of not only bad conditions, but also a mobilized and radicalized populace combined with fortuitious timing in which the government has been fundamentally weakened by either outside pressure (usually war/invasion) or internal division.

Economics alone don't necessarily cause it. Weimar Germany in 1933 had the depression, coupled with a weak government and massive internal radicalization and mobilization of radicalized forces. Revolutions tend to require the middle to drop out, thus allowing radicals and reactionaries to have an unobstructed ability to strike at each other.

Things can get unspeakably bad otherwise without anyone doing anything, because a lack of prior radicalization and mobilization tends to lead to apathy and fatalism on the part of the masses. Once the bottom has dropped out, it is usually too late to start mobilizing (one usually lacks the means) and radicalization at that point is often a luxury that can't be maintained.

In the case of the United States, the seeds just aren't there. For all the coverage of screaming extremists, the majority of the country remains relatively moderate, the center hasn't yet totally dropped out of the political arena. Furthermore, there is no mass mobilization under radical ideological positions (The Teabaggers/Minutemen/neo-Militias don't count, they remain on the fringe) and the government's coercive powers remain fundamentally sound. Hence an "American Revolution" at this point would be half-hearted, disorganized, and easily dissolved by government action.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Interesting answer
But radicalization and mobilization can't happen if there's apathy and fatalism. You might be right but I wonder if your not putting the cart before the horse.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. Apathy and fatalism have to be combatted by mobilization and radicalization
among those who still have the freedom and ability to act. The posts about employment and incarceration above point this out. For most of us, one trip to the klink and we are marginalized and screwed, scraping by at subsistence level for the rest of our lives. Such people are great at becoming revolutionary shock troops (sans-culottes, etc.) but they do not start revolutions, they don't organize anything, they are just spurred into action after the coercive apparatus is shown to be too weak to be threatening anymore.

The problem is, that there are precious few people in this country secure enough to provide a revolutionary leadership and organization, and a majority of they are either still involved in the system, don't care, or are libertarian/crypto-fascists, who you wouldn't want leading a revolution anyway.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. Because THE COUNTRY followed RONALD REAGAN'S PROPAGANDA TRAIN into LALA LAND.
:evilfrown:
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. History has some lessons for us:
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 03:02 PM by Ezlivin
This excerpt is from "They Thought They Were Free" by Milton Mayer:

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the universe was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was 'expected to' participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one's energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your 'little men', your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and 'crises' and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the 'national enemies', without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures' that no 'patriotic German' could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - 'Resist the beginnings' and 'consider the end.' But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your 'little men,' your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, 'everyone' is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, 'It's not so bad' or 'You're seeing things' or 'You're an alarmist.'

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in '43' had come immediately after the 'German Firm' stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in '33'. But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or 'adjust' your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know."

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn't an anti-Nazi. He was just&mdahsh;a judge. In '42' or '43', early '43', I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an 'Aryan' woman. This was 'race injury', something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case a bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a 'nonracial' offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party 'processing' which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the 'nonracial' charge, in the judge's opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience—a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That's how I heard about it.) After the '44' Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don't know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was 'defeatism.' You assumed that there were lists of those who would be 'dealt with' later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their 'treasonable attitude' had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything 'necessary' to win it; so it was with the 'final solution' of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its 'necessities' gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."
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Xolodno Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. Food.
Plain and simple...its food. Every government has learned from two very bloody revolutions of the past. The French Revolution and the Russian Revolution. Both started with essentially food riots.

As for non-violent, that takes organization and anger. Furthermore, most are taking the wait and see approach. The Obama administration is not yet a year old, I think most are willing to give him a little time. This mess didn't happen overnight and it won't be fixed overnight.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. Also, #5 is often the scapegoat used to justify inaction/lack of organization
Funny how many people I encounter who complain endlessly about how "busy" they are. When asked why, they rattle off a long line of trivial, self-serving bullshit that they've, per corporate culture conditioning/indoctrination, come to perceive as necessary, yet is clearly little more than typical, cosmetic Keeping Up With The Jones' jive they they WANT and DESIRE in re to $ and status, and all of that mindless "structure" that the system advocates to keep people unwary of anything beyond Shopping Mall "reality."
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. I read that in France, when a union goes on strike the school kids also
go on sympathy strike. One must not forget the power of compulsory education to help form our instincts, for good or for bad. It's like a drill. Pavlov's syndrome. Not a lesson of lecture, but a lesson of example.


That said, there has been somewhat of a quiet revolution. Things are changing slowly under Obama and Democratic control of congress. We might still get Medicare for All!

I was happy about the medical marijuana policy change the other day, that's important to some folks with chronic conditions. But, there are always things we can find happening that we're not happy about, particularly in the Executive Branch.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. sympathy strikes in US were made illegal; when US workers strike, French media often predominates!
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. That does ring a bell. Taft Hartley?
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 03:25 PM by Trillo
Grade schools are exempt from a lot of other rules, such as child labor laws.

http://www.labornotes.org/node/1952
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. We've been "Network"ed
Not in the I'm mad as hell way(which was about ratings), but rather the Arthur Jensen/no identity way. We're not fighting against the system. We're fighting to include more people into the vast, interwoven, interacting, and multi-national system of systems.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. More people should see that one!
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Revolution?
You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world


But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right (3x)


You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can

But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait / Don't you know...

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
31. The well-fed do not revolt.
And Americans are well-fed to the point of being a jellified mass of quivering blubber. Any revolution would require frequent rest breaks and a fleet of electric scooters.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. We're too comfortable, but it's comfort balanced on a razor's edge.
Most people generally live a comfortable life in the US (especially when compared to third world countries). That comfort though is dependent on us not making waves. If some people would go a month without a paycheck they would go under in a way they would never recover from. Act up outside of work and you can lose your job and your comfortable lifestyle. Break the law (that is built around upholding the system) and you can go to prison and probably lose the possibility of ever getting a comfortable life back. You also risk the financial future of your children.

Our system is great at creating underclasses of people.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. There have been protests. The media is ignoring them.
Tune into Democracy Now! if you can. It's online too with Amy Goodman. Yesterday they showed protestors conducting sit ins at insurance company headquarters being arrested across the country. They have been showing the grass roots efforts being made not only for health insurance, but anti-war and others that are going on as they happen. Our media only shows the tea baggers and other astroturf groups in action, not the real citizens of this country leading a revolution. Those they ignore so that's why you haven't noticed what activists are doing nationwide.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
34. Maybe people are afraid that to protest war spending would be too Scrooge-like?
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 03:04 PM by Boojatta
As we approach the Christmas season, and civilians prepare to celebrate, a general who is deprived of toys feels the privation with special intensity. Taxpayers sympathize. Everyone who will be required to contribute to future interest payments on the debt recognizes that the situation calls for sympathy.

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
35. "Insurgent Identities,' by Roger Gould (rip), shows how complex the 1871 French revolution was;
"In this important contribution both to the study of social protest and to French social history, Roger Gould breaks with previous accounts that portray the Paris Commune of 1871 as a continuation of the class struggles of the 1848 Revolution. Focusing on the collective identities framing conflict during these two upheavals and in the intervening period, Gould reveals that while class played a pivotal role in 1848, it was neighborhood solidarity that was the decisive organizing force in 1871.

The difference was due to Baron Haussmann's massive urban renovation projects between 1852 and 1868, which dispersed workers from Paris's center to newly annexed districts on the outskirts of the city. In these areas, residence rather than occupation structured social relations. Drawing on evidence from trail documents, marriage records, reports of police spies, and the popular press, Gould demonstrates that this fundamental rearrangement in the patterns of social life made possible a neighborhood insurgent movement; whereas the insurgents of 1848 fought and died in defense of their status as workers, those in 1871 did so as members of a besieged urban community. "

other scholars have similarly shown how revolutions stem from many interacting conditions, they're not simple to explain
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KillCapitalism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Extreme unemployment would tip the balance.
Many are out of jobs right now, but it's not THAT bad, especially compared to the 1930's.

I think if we ever crossed 50% unemployment, you'd start seeing the beginning of civil unrest.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Maybe.
But you would still need an organizing mobilizing force to make a revolution. Otherwise all you would have is anarchy, which would either be suppressed by an increasingly authoritarian state, or simply devolve into a failed state, should the government be too weak to suppress it.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Guaranteed.
When people have nothing to lose...
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. #5 In our 'Ownership Society'
People are scared to death of losing what they have worked years to get and/or are desperately getting by, and that's how the Powers That Be control the workers/peasants.

Let people believe that that they really own something, like their homes, stocks, and retirement accounts, because it will keep them from rocking the boat.
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Jkid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. Americans have been socialized not to protest for so long.
They have been socialized to be distracted by local newscasts that show crime stories as top stories, instead of what your local politicians are doing.

That's on big example.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Protesting is largely considered "unseemly," something those 'crazy' Conspiracy Theorists do
Good, normal, professional-aspiring WINNERS have nothing to do with 'all that stuff.' lol
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. Revolution to what, and by what means? n/t
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Lu Galasso Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
43. Complacent.
We are complacent and apathetic and we are waiting for change. Change died with the 60's. now we watch reality tv and floating balloons. '

http://video.pbs.org/video/1266848366/
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
45. "I don't necessarily mean in the traditional, violent sense "
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 03:17 PM by Boojatta
Was there a revolution in Poland in the traditional, violent sense between 1981 and 1991?

In December 1990 in a general ballot he (Lech Walesa) was elected President of the Republic of Poland. He served until defeated in the election of November 1995.

From:
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1983/walesa-bio.html


09/12/2008
General Jaruzelski in Court
Ex-Communist Leader Indicted in Poland

The country's last communist leader, General Wojciech Jaruzelski, went on trial for imposing martial law in 1981.

A packed Warsaw court listened Friday as prosecutors read out the official indictment of Gen. Wojciech Jaruzelski, 85, and seven other former top-ranking officials from Poland's former communist regime.

Jaruzelski has repeatedly defended the decision, saying it was necessary to forestall a possibly bloody Soviet invasion such as those experienced in Hungary in 1956 and the former Czechoslovakia in 1968.

All of the defendants have pleaded not guilty. If convicted, Jaruzelski could face up to 10 years in prison and the others might serve shorter terms.

From:
spiegel.de

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. Some of what you posted, but here is the real reason
we have created a middle class. (Oh don't bother with the facts... I am talking of the culture here)... and the middle class does not strike. Only them silly workers do. Oh did I mention they are commies?

Oh and the pharmaceuticals is called debt... and STUFF....

People need to pay for their toys and keep up with the johnses...

There is also no sense of history... and that is on purpose.

Oh and the population has been fully atomized over the last thirty or so years, if not longer.

Why the last movement was in the 60s.

Me, will look at writing a history of labor... after all we are were we were in 1910 or so. New immigrants (now from LatAm) are growing a Union, SEIU... from the ground up... it is them who will pave the way.

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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
48. For reasons that it's taken me some time
And a great deal of reading to fathom, the American people in general are too brainwashed to know they should rebel. Religion is a big factor in that, I sometimes think. If belief is a thing to be accepted, even something to strive for, then acceptance of the most unrealistic ideas comes easier.

Starting with Edward Bernays and an outrageous respect for religious beliefs, no matter how far outside the mainstream, the public has been propagandized, sold an outrageous double standard, taught that independent thought is dangerous, that violence is OK, sex is wrong, been immunized to hypocrisy and have had the reality of what their countries' successive administrations hidden from them.

"The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments of the dominant political mythology."
Michael Parenti


For instance, the media used to talk about how many people wanted to leave Cuba, as proof of the repressive regime in Cuba. What they didn't mention was that the problem wasn't the regime so much as the economic sanctions that have made life almost impossible in Cuba for years. Nor is the fact mentioned that Cuba has well-trained doctors and a good medical system.....in spite of the useless and vindictive sanctions.

Clinton did wonders for the economy, but the number of times he used the military abroad is not talked about, and that's an error. Forget Lewinsky, the real damage to the Clinton legacy came from drones and mercenaries.

Pollution is stockpiled near the poorer areas, education is worse in the poorer areas....it's not mentioned. Mountaintop removal is desperately polluting; there's little outcry, because the rich don't live in those areas.

The US has engaged in at least 72 conflicts around the world, most of them illegal, since WWII...Places like Italy, Spain, the Balkans, Iraq, Iran, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Chile....all over south America, in fact......Cambodia, Laos, Lebanon....the places are too numerous to count, and not all of them are third world countries.

Politicians are a commodity; they are bought and sold by the corporatocracy, and hardly anyone complains.

It amazes me, but the reasons are the corporate and military and government propaganda that is fed to the public in a steady stream. It is meant to produce a compliant population, and it has. Every now and then, the population wakes up...but it rarely lasts long, and the fascist tactics come out at those times...and the arsenal of tactics is amazing and getting worse. Now they use sound weapons and chemical weapons and just plain torture. It's fine if the US does it, or Israel, or any of the fascist states the US supports. It's a good reason to invade Iraq, however. It's astounding to me that the School of the Americas and the American Enterprise Institute are still crazy, after all these years...but the US is still invading countries to 'bring democracy.'

I'm convinced that the labour unions and the people who fought for civil rights have taught the oligarchy not to trust democracy, and they have quietly ensured the beliefs that will keep most people out of the streets.....or worse, fighting against their own better interests.

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NRaleighLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
49. Apathy. Because as bad as it is, it still isn't bad enough to get people off their asses to fight.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
50. We need modern-day Eugene V. Deb's
People to rally the masses out of their inaction.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
51. Not hungry enough yet
Revolutions are born of hunger and suffering. My guess is we're not there yet.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
52. massive levels of ignorance and apathy.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
53. #2, & for those who don't fall into that category, #5. --nt
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
54. Kids now days are more into tech toys than speaking out
and the old are too busy fighting to keep what they have.

I remember my first jobs, you couldn't talk while working, you had to show the bosses major respect or you were out. No fooling around while working at all.

Now days I walk into any store, starbucks, office, etc. You would think you were at a social event sometimes based on the conversations you hear, what people are doing while working.

Check out what people are talking about on FB. Most of it is falala talk to just pass time.

While on these political blogs you find the young that do care and work to campaign and such, most of america is not like that.

I just came back from 2 wks with my 30 yr old daughter and her family. Attending soccer games and being part of young family life. Politics is the very last thing on their lives. Yes they care about healthcare, but as soon as they personally have a job that has it, game over...forget the rest of america. I am not going to say to my daughter who is a busy office manager with lots of responsibility at work, at home and volunteers with soccer, you need to go fight with us politically.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
56. 8. Things aren't that bad
Nobody's dying in the streets, nobody has been forced to eat their pets, or rats, or their pet rats, etc.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
57. Lots of distractions/toys to pacify.
Plus the U.S. has spent the past 30-40 years arming local police departments to the hilt with SWAT teams, bomb squads, riot squads, lots of weapons, you name it. Any meaningful "revolution" could probably be shut down in no time with armed force. No more Chicagos or Seattles are likely to happen. Some people would probably call it a police state.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
58. Nobody is hungry yet.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
59. No Balls.....No Trotskys
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. No, pretty sure there are enough Trotskys here.
More than enough, actually.
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
60. The media (TV/Radio)
is controlled and those who don't watch or listen, don't care..........
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
63. 50,000 people in front of the New York Stock Exchange would be a good start.
:kick:
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
64. People aren't organized.
The Unions have been chopped off at the knees, and you're not going to have the type of manufacturing stoppages you've seen in the past when you've outsourced those types of jobs to other countries.
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