I happen to be so lucky to have German citizenship beside my American one.

[daedalus_dude]

Because my dad was in the Army and stationed in Germany and my mom is German.

I went to school and college in Germany.

Now, my family has always been working class. My dad spent most of his life either
unemployed or as a construction worker. My mom has been a low rank bank employee most
of her life.

I had health care all of my life. Never paid more than a few euro (or marks) for
some pills or whatever. No large bills for any procedure. I've had operations,
dental and and eyecare and whatnot.

Also: I got a masters-degree equivalent with paying virtually nothing for it. All
I had to do is not flunk out. If my mom would have lost her job, then the government would
have even given me a free place to live as long as I stay in college.

In other words: No one in my family is rich. Our background is extremely modest. We have never been
poor but not "well off" either. Still, I had everything I needed to be set up for higher education.

Whenever I'm in the states and see how some people I know are doing, it really feels like travelling to the
third world. But in a bizarre way, because the technology in the states always seems to be a few small steps ahead
of Germany (fancy electronic road signs and faster internet for instance). But the social structure in the States is so far behind that it is absolutely astonishing.

What is even more astonishing are those, usually dirt-poor, people in the States who are kicking and screaming "HELL NO!!! DON'T GIVE US ALL THAT FREE STUFF!!!"

[liberal N proud]

1. That does blow ones mind

Turning down free health care when you don't have a pot to pee in metaphorically.

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. I know it. My grey matter is all over the place now.

[jasi2006]

47. It's primarially becuse of their bigotry and racism.

"Don't give me any help if it means some other dirt poor folks (minorities) will get help too.

[Ineeda]

2. We've been indoctrinated

to value 'things' rather than the intangible. Social benefits are too much like Socialism, I guess.

[Zywiec]

3. Are all Germans provided the same opportunity to go on to higher education as you were?

In the US, you typically need just a high school diploma to go to college. This is something most young adults in the US are able to achieve.

What percentage of young Germans earn the Abitur to go to the University?

[daedalus_dude]

5. I don't know the number.

But from my experience, it wasn't all that hard to get. I think though, that usually people who have a "migration background" have it more difficult.

[Zywiec]

7. Just found this on Wiki

The importance of the Abitur has grown beyond admission to the university, however, in that it has increasingly become a prerequisite to start an apprenticeship in some professions (e.g. banking). Therefore, career opportunities for Hauptschule or Realschule graduates who do not have the Abitur have almost universally seen a downturn in recent years. More than just being a leaving certificate, the Abitur is widely regarded as a matter of personal prestige as well. According to the Statistisches Bundesamt in 2003/2004 about 23% of all students leaving school graduated with an Abitur (Fachabitur <1.2%>, Realschulabschluss <42.6%>, Hauptschulabschluss <25.0%>, without any school leaving certificate <8.3%>) The official term for Abitur in Germany is Zeugnis der allgemeinen Hochschulreife (often translated as General Qualification for University Entrance or Certificate for Overall Maturity for Higher Education).

That means that while higher education is indeed cheaper in Germany, only 23% of students graduate with the requisite Abitur to get into a university.

I'm glad that more than 23% of U.S. kids can go to college.

[Alcibiades]

12. There are real differences

I graduated with a high school diploma from the JFK School in Berlin, an institution that also offers the Abitur. The Abitur is an excellent preparatory program for the university, but I do think that there is a certain class bias in the system. The children of well-educated or well-off students are more likely to gain admission to the gymnasium because they will have been taught to do well in school. That's no different than it is here.

German students work their asses off to obtain the Abitur. From what I saw, social promotion does not exist as it does in the states. A couple of my friends became demotivated by the usual high school things, but, instead of being put on a one-way course to being a high school dropout, they were sent to Realschul. Here in the US, it may well be the case that students encounter actual academic rigor for the first time only in college: in Germany, the hard part is doing the work required to get into college. Once in college, students encounter a much freer intellectual environment, and party as hard as our kids do, if not harder. But in high school, those kids work their asses off, whereas in the US, even in quite good schools, doing well can be laughably easy.

The main difference between the German system ans ours isn't that only 23% of students are granted an Abi: it's what happens to those who do not. Instead of assuming that everyone needs a college diploma and that folks who don't get one are some sort of failure, the German system includes a strong vocational-technical component sorely lacking in our system. When it comes to comparative analysis of the equity of educational outcomes, rather than focusing on what percentage of folks get a university degree, it might be better to focus on what proportion of students get an education that actually prepares them for the work they will do as adults, and I think the German system actually produces a more equitable result in this regard.

What may not be fair is the tracking system. Unless you do well in grade school, you'll never get into the Gymnasium, and never get an Abitur or university degree. This means, usually, that you will have to have parents who emphasize educational attainment from day one, and this probably does perpetuate a certain class bias in the system, though, again, I don't think that's really all that different from the US. What the German model lacks is a whole strata of mediocre colleges and universities giving mediocre educations to students who probably would be better served by actual hands-on training that would be available to them under the German apprenticeship system. And the debt. Under the US system, I incurred a six-figure debt getting my university degree and PhD, which I would not have had to do in the German system.

[Zywiec]

13. I'm familiar with the German education system

My daughter earned her Abi last year, and my son was on that track for getting it next year. My daughter is now attending college in the US.

Since there wasn't a clear benefit of having the ABI in the US, my son recently decided to drop it, and just pursue a high school diploma. He's still got the foundation for scoring high marks on the AP exams that will ensure entry into a good US school.

My problem with the German system is how the students' lives are determined when they are in 5th grade. No one here would agree to that, yet the German system is constantly hailed as wonderful because it's less expensive as the US.

How many here want their kids in the 77% that will never go to college?

[daedalus_dude]

18. The german system is great if you happen to be in Gymnasium.

The other two branches are severely flawed. And yes, deciding before fifth grade is way two early. I think I could live with two different branches, one practical and one theoretical, and a seperation after sixth grade. My point was though, that the whole system, how flawed it might be in certain spots, is tax funded.

[liberalpragmatist]

25. I think there should be a vocational track in high school

... in the U.S., which leads to specialized training and a certificate or Associates Degree.

However, even people in the vocational track should have the option anytime of applying to a full four-year college, although they may need some additional certification (i.e. a GED or SAT completion).

[whathehell]

42. You're opposed to fifth grade determination, but think Sixth Grade is O.K?

Wow....Even the Japanese wait until high school.

Sorry..This system seems less than great to me. It certainly does seem "class based". I'd rather pay the money and enjoy my time as a 10 or eleven year old!

[Alcibiades]

26. You're absolutely right about how us Amis feel

about the way the German system tracks students very early in life. To us, it seems unfair, but we like a system with open admission universities. I bet to the Germans it probably seems unfair that most of our non-college bound kids get no vocational training unless they pay for it themselves.

It's a different culture, they are used to their system, and so it seems fair to them as ours does to us. They know that they have to do well in primary school, so the folks who expect that their kids will go on to the university make damn sure their kids do well at that level. This means that there is a class bias inherent in the system, but I'm not so sure ours is all that different, especially with our extensive system of private schools, and the fact that primary and secondary schools are funded mainly on the basis of local property taxes, which means a wide disparity between schools and school districts. So we have some kids who have access to AP courses, various gifted programs, library resources, and the all-important private tutoring to cram for the SAT exams. And we also have many who have some or few or none of those things. Some kids live in states with excellent public universities, and some live in places such as Alabama and Mississippi. And we also have Ivy League legacy students studying at institutions that would not accept them if not for their parents' money.

I think that, on the whole, the German system is both more meritocratic and socially equitable than ours. One of the trade-offs that they have made is that it appears that students who do not do well academically early are penalized and have their life choices limited, essentially forever. I have taught similar sorts of students at American universities, though, and I'm not convinced that our system does them any favors either.

[whathehell]

41. Precisely.

[whathehell]

30. Our system has definite flaws, but I think I'd prefer it to what you describe here..

'What the German model lacks is a whole strata of mediocre colleges and universities giving mediocre educations to students who probably would be better served by actual hands-on training that would be available to them under the German apprenticeship system".

As kids from a working class family with more brains than money, My sister and I, like many others, went to two of those "mediocre" colleges (state schools?)and graduated with honors...My sister went on to become a lawyer and a superior court judge...I am in between jobs but "doing well".

Since our grades in elementary school were "o.k." but not great, I can see us, in the German system, getting "sidetracked" into totally inappropriate "vocational" programs.

Sorry, the German system, despite its good points, sounds a too "expensive" in it's limiations to me...The American system does allow for scholarships and grants besides loans, so huge "debt" is not inevitable.

In any case, I'd prefer the freedom, even with the possibility of debt to a system that starts shutting out kids in the fifth grade.

[Alcibiades]

33. I come from a very similar social background

I always earned straight A's in grade school and middle school, but started to slump in high school after I was told that the money that was supposed to pay for college simply wasn't there. I then waited until I was 22 to go to college so I could qualify for financial aid on my own. I did better in college than in high school, better at my master's program than in college, and better at my Ph.D. program than in my master's program. The point is that any number of trajectories are possible for an individual student's performance. Perhaps I wouldn't have earned a doctorate under the German model, but one thing I certainly wouldn't have is $166,000 in student loan debt. I won't bore you with details, but debt has become the preeminent component of financial aid for students today, at both public and private institutions.

The distinction between good schools and bad ones isn't a public/private distinction. I've taught at, and attended, both good and mediocre public and private institutions. It's possible to get an excellent education at virtually any institution, or even autodidactically, so long as one is sufficiently motivated. I do think there's greater hostility to the life of the mind in the US than in Germany, but that's more a function of culture than simply the choice of where and how we limit access to higher education.

[whathehell]

34. I think the "greater hostility" to the life of the mind in the US, is, in large part

relatively recent, and it bothers me greatly. During the 1960's America had the largest middle class in the world and also the largest number of college graduates.

I believe the "dumbing down" started primarily with Reagan, just as wide-scale "dumbing down" Conservative Talk shows did...Corporate influence, big time.

I grew up in what is now referred to as "the golden age" of America..I don't like the term, and I first heard it on NPR, because it implies that it was an "exception"..In fact, I think I heard the host actually refer to it that way.."the exception..when everyone did well"....I remember thinking THAT is an "exception"?...I thought that's what America was all about!

It is certainly what many of us our working to wards bringing back..An "exception" my ass!

[Alcibiades]

38. Anti-intellectualism certainly isn't new

It is useful, from time to time, to re-read Hofstadter's Pulitzer Prize-winning 1963 Anti-intellectualism in American Life, which describes our long history of celebrating ignorance. While you could certainly write a new volume describing the developments since Hofstadter's book, it is interesting that it was written during, and at least partly as a reaction to, the time period you cite: McCarthy, attacks on Adlai Stevenson as an "egghead," and the stirrings of evangelical Protestantism. Hofstadter mines a rich vein of anti-intellectualism in our history, to include the peculiarly unlearned character of the Protestant heretics who first settled here and the attacks on Jefferson by the Federalists.

[whathehell]

40. It may not be "new"..but it's not limited to the US either..I wouldn't

call the Third Reich a time of great intellectual prowess.

[Alcibiades]

43. We are more profoundly anti-intellectual than

pretty much any other industrial nation. The Third Reich was an aberration: Germany considers itself to be a land of wissen and bildung, where learning is honored. Us, not so much.

[whathehell]

45. We value accomplishments.

That is why this country tends to dominate the Nobel prizes. It is not only das Wissen, but what you do with it that counts.

Perhaps you would prefer to be admired just for the knowledge you have acquired, and look down on those with less knowledge than you...In that case, you might just be more comfortable in Germany.

[Alcibiades]

48. I wouldn't prefer that, personally

But it is a false dichotomy to say that one can value either learning or accomplishment, when one is generally a prerequisite for the other. It is possible to advocate for learning as a value in itself, and as something that is instrumental to other things, without this being an expression of a desire for superiority. The willingness to baselessly ascribe elitism to intellectuals in this country, and the idea that they might perhaps be more at home abroad, is illustrative of the sort of anti-intellectualism in our culture I've been trying to describe.

[whathehell]

49. Really?.....I wonder why.

You certainly seem more admiring of and intellectually connected with Germany.

Might it be that, our "anti-intellectual" environs allow you to feel more like a "big fish" in a small pond, something that would be, in your view, less likely in Germany?

Learning and Accomplishment: I didn't "make" a dichotomy..I simply made an observation about our country. You're free to draw your own conclusions.

As to learning and accomplishment with one being a "prerequisite" to another, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Although accomplishment generally requires learning, the reverse is less frequently true: Spending one's life reading and theorizing while doing little is not only possible, it's fairly common.

Your erroneously characterize me as an American who ascribes "elitism" to intellectualism. That would be false. The truth is I RECOGNIZE intellectualism it in this country. You, it seems, do not.

[daedalus_dude]

19. True, if you are not in Gynmasium, prospects are not too good.

Especially the lowest branch of school is almost a straight path into the welfare system. I think the german system could be severely improved. However, my point was that if the whole thing, how flawed it may be in some areas, is tax funded.

[SoCalDem]

22. I'm glad that more than 23% of U.S. kids can go to college.

but most of those (non-rich) ones exit college with soul-crushing debt that they often have college-debt long into their adult lives, which sets them up to "settle", rather than expand their horizons.

Getting a degree to jet a "job" is very different from going to college to LEARN, and to explore what interests you..How many people these days pass up careers in things they might love to do..have a real affinity for, because that debt has to be paid, so they settle for a "job"?...and how often do they have to keep changing "jobs" because the "job" does not pay enough for them to have a life, or the company outsourced it?

[Democracyinkind]

4. As a Swiss/American citizen, I pretty much feel the same.

But then I am a rich man's child and daddy could have bought me health, education and all that even in the United States. Still, I never can spend time in the US without feeling some kind of guilt. I would have gotten the same health care and education in Switzerland even if my Dad never had held a job in his whole life. Knowing that I won't be discarded even if I totally fuck up everything I am doing now is a pretty essential thing in order to feel calm and be happy. I feel guilty that I don't know these kind of existential fears just because my mother married some swiss guy... And yes, it is strange to realize that the standard of living in the shining city on the hill doesn't even come close to that of most European countries. Part of my american family definitely lives in the third world when compared to my situation....

And yes, the most strangest of all for someone sharing both backgrounds is to see people fighting to keep down or even lower the standard of living, mostly using faulty propaganda talking points to bring the point home. HOw many times have I been told by Americans that they wouldn't want to trade their freedoms for the kind of luxury that Switzerland offers... But maybe these illusions are good for America... George Carlin noted that it is this kind of bullshit propaganda that is the cohesive bond that keeps America bound together.

[closeupready]

39. Sometimes, I think Americans see prosperity as a lottery ticket; just a matter of time until winning

So if they are dirt poor and arguing for tax cuts on the rich, that's an attempt to head off higher taxes on themselves for the day when they win the lottery/become a bank CEO/film star/basketball pro/etc.

[HamdenRice]

6. I was astounded when I lived in apartheid South Africa that they had universal health care

Fuck -- when your health care system is worse than the health care system for blacks in apartheid South Africa, you are truly fucked.

[Lyric]

8. As someone who's poor and who comes from poverty

I can provide at least one perspective into why the poor are so easily duped into voting against their own interests.

First, the wealthy masters of this nation have quite literally spent decades upon decades carefully cultivating within the poor community the idea that poverty is shameful. They've told the poor generations in America that not only is it wrong to expect frivolous things (e.g., plasma TVs) that you haven't earned (which is true,) they've also convinced the poor that it's a moral failing to expect necessary things (e.g., food and shelter) that haven't been earned, regardless of your situation. Basic things like food, shelter, clothes, health care, etc. They have also managed to instill a similar value in the American middle-class bourgeoisie...the notion that YOUR hard-earned money should not be spent on "lazy" people who aren't nearly as industrious as you; people who are suffering due to their own moral failings, and thus don't "deserve" help.

In fact, they've convinced an enormous portion of the middle class it's a moral failing in and of itself to HELP people like that, because "it just reinforces laziness." They've managed to convince people that being stingy, greedy, and unmerciful is actually a virtue, and that such behavior "helps" the poor by forcing them to take care of themselves. They then hire pet religious leaders to find and twist Bible verses in order to back up these claims with "moral facts."

They have done such a fantastic job of convincing both the poor and the middle-class that government aid is morally wrong, that now poor people actually fight AGAINST the very thing that might make their lives better. And the moderate-to-conservative middle class fights right along with them. This toxic meme reinforces itself over and over by pure numbers--people tend to think, "Well if this idea is wrong, then why do SO many people from different backgrounds seem to believe it?"

Of course the whole thing rests on an enormous set of false premises, the largest and most vile of which is that poverty is the result of personal failure and/or moral turpitude, and thus is "deserved." The second is that industrious work and productive labor are the cure...that working hard is all you need to do in order to get out of poverty. Both of these premises are LIES. They're some of the biggest, most evil lies that Americans have ever been told.

Most people don't really WANT to believe otherwise, though, because it challenges the foundations of their entire worldview. That's a scary thing. It's easier and safer to just continue believing a lie, especially when anyone can dig up an anecdotal story or two of some poor person THEY know who "deserves" to be poor...like someone who once gamed the welfare system, or someone who wasn't working even though they COULD have worked. Sure, there are always a few lazy people out there, but I would argue that even the lazy do not deserve to starve and freeze. I would argue that our concept of "laziness" itself is flawed; that most people that we perceive as "lazy" are people who are suffering from mental illness, emotional trauma, or a personality illness like pathologically-low self-esteem. But even if that isn't true, even if these people are just lazy to the core, that doesn't mean that those handful of people should be the examples we use to determine policy for ALL poor people. The vast, vast majority of poor people are hard workers and good people who've suffered an enormous amount of bias and misfortune that a job just isn't enough to "fix."

I think that we all need to focus on solutions that break these ugly and false memes about the poor, because so long as these falsehoods stand unchallenged in any meaningful way, we will never be able to battle poverty.

We also need to enlist the help of good-hearted religious leaders, because the battle to reclaim God from the wealthy greed-masters who've usurped him is a fight that only THEY can win. Secular logic is not going to convince poor people that asking for help is not a moral failing, but good religious leaders (like our own Critters2) might be able to make that argument more effectively. These are the people that the poor need to hear from.

[Occam Bandage]

11. This is a good post. nt

[femrap]

Great post...

Yesterday I visited a National Park to view the beautiful fall leaves. I encountered a couple and somehow got on the topic of Health Care. The dude started in on how the US has the best health care in the world. What really got me was when he said, 'I'm tired to paying for others. I just want to take care of myself.'

My brain exploded. And my mouth started to spew. I asked him if he took that sorry ass of his to church on Sunday and did Jesus tell him to spit on neighbors in need and to let his community rot just so he could take care of himself?

He represents that angry, selfish white male who listens to those 'prosperity preachers.'

By the time I reached my car, I was yelling at him and everyone in the parking lot had stopped and were listening. I simply can no longer listen to such hypocrisy and willful ignorance without pointing at it and yelling!

If you don't mind, I would like to use your post for educational purposes.

[Contrary1]

17. I would bet that the clown isn't tired of paying to blow up Muslims. n/t

[femrap]

23. Probably not.....

the stupid POS. It's exhausting putting up with these people wearing blinders....both on their eyes and their brains.

[whathehell]

31. Good for you...but

what if he answered in such a way as to indicate that he was not religious?

I ask because, contrary to popular opinion, a lot of repukes are not religious..They're just Selfish.

A friend's husband is like this...He's has no religion...He's just what John Dean called "a conservative without conscience"...Classic Authoritarian personality...Very selfish.

[femrap]

35. I live in a Bible Belt area and I just got

the vibe that these two were Thumpers...The just plain selfish ones wouldn't have conversed with me. I'm pretty much invisible to them.

I loved Dean's book. It explained a lot to me.

The Selfish are just one notch below The Greedy!

ETA: If I had come into contact with a Greedy, I would have told him about the prevalence of the bumper sticker, 'EAT THE RICH.' I enjoy scaring the greedy. And then there are other stories about kidnapped rich folks, ransoms, robberies, carjacks, etc.

[whathehell]

36. Sounds good!

[ljm2002]

16. What a great post!

This could be posted as an original topic -- then I could recommend it... :-)

We really need to be thinking about root causes of the mass hypnosis / mass hysteria that afflicts our political discourse. We also really, really need to find common ground with one another, even reaching out to those who we don't agree with on some important issues. Your post helps to provide some insights into the kind of thinking we are dealing with, and thank you for that.

[renegade000]

21. excellent post

I think you really hit the nail on the head. You may be right in that secular intellectualizing is not going to convince people to give up the myths regarding poverty, but I'm not sure religious argument is going to be sufficient either. Most (if not all) religions promote the belief in human free will because it is a nice solution to theological problems such as theodicy, and if you're willing to say that people can choose to be evil or good of their own free will, then what is to stop you from saying that people can choose to be poor/rich?

Ultimately I feel the problem lies in human nature itself. We naturally want to think that we've got it good because of our inherit superiority (ignoring the contributions of our parents, friends, family, co-workers, education, etc.). We also naturally want to think that we can improve our situation just be simply WILLING hard enough (actual constraints on our ability to do so be damned). The ugly converse to these sentiments is that we would then view people in unfortunate circumstances as being inferior and being too lazy to WILL themselves into a better life.

[Okie4Obama]

24. This post sums it all up.

Voting against your own self interest is preached constantly to the working poor.

[eridani]

28. Wait a minute here. Don't well-off liberals do the same thing?

Taxing your own income to help other people is not in line with your self-interest either. Ve all vote values--the kind of world we'd like to see. Some, regardless of income, want us all to be in it together. Others, whether by birth or socialization, would cheerfully pay someone to saw off their dominant hand if part of the deal was that someone they didn't like got both hands sawn off.

In my own case, I support an income tax for WA State, which has one of the most regressive tax systems in the nation. But I used to have a fairly affluent income, and I have a defined benefits pension plus social security now. Compared to others in my demographic, I am extremely frugal. Therefore a sales tax and no income tax maximizes my personal income. Four out of five voters in WA would pay less with an income tax, and I used to be that 5th person, voting against my own interests. Ironically, the more likely you would be to benefit from a sales tax, the more likely you are to oppose it. That's probably because sales taxes are much less visible.

[leanderj]

9. Even people in Asia I met felt sorry for uninsured Americans

Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan all have excellent universal health care with practically negligible out-of-pocket costs. People there were amazed that the U.S. is still in Dicken's age when it comes to something basic like universal health care.
But Americans can own guns!!!

[Occam Bandage]

10. Ich habe nur amerikanische Staatsbürgerschaft.

Schade.

[Voice for Peace]

14. kick and rec nt

[liberal_at_heart]

15. we are becoming third world

Pretty soon Doctors Without Borders will be setting up shop right here in the great USA to treat people who can't go to the doctor. I know there are already some pretty big free clinics being set up in footbal stadiums in Texas where doctors come to give free medical care to those who don't have insurance. And college. Who can go to college these days? Tuition rose over 6 percent this year. You are lucky to have dual citizenship. My husband and I want to move to the UK or to Europe. But with bills to pay I don't know if we will be able to save enough money to make the move. I can't stand the thought of being stuck here. My daughter goes to college in 4 years and right now there is no way we can afford to send her to college. She is getting pretty good grades. I don't want to put too much pressure on her but I have told her that some scholarship money would come in handy. I do think she is very capable of getting good enough grades to get some scholarships. I just hate to put that kind of pressure on a 15 year old. But right now I don't see how we have much choice. What really scares me is that one big medical crisis could ruin any plans we have. One medical crisis can bankrupt you and send you to the poor house for a long time.

[2Design]

27. thanks for another view n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

29. German Army Brats Unite! My dad was stationed in Germany shortly after we kids were born

[Odin2005]

32. I really like the German way of doing things.

If we ever have a constitutional convention to write up a new constitution I think we should use the German one as a starting point. It had a federalist division of power between national and state governments and a bicameral legislature that uses a mix of proportional representation and winner-take-all. It would fit the US perfectly.

[Shagbark Hickory]

37. People first. Then money. Then shit.

Germany would make Suze Orman proud.

[Brigid]

44. While I was working at Anthem . . .

now Wellpoint, I once got a call from a man whose daughter was living in Germany and had married a German man. They were considering moving to the US. The dad was callling to get info for them about individual health insurance policies that we offered. In other words, the health insurance issue was going to have at least some influence on how this couple decided their future. Is that insane or what? :grr:

[and-justice-for-all]

46. I'd rather be in Deutschland!! nt