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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 05:02 PM
Original message
Government Secrecy and the “Continuity of Government” Plan
If you believe in democracy as a broad concept – the concept that a peoples’ government should be accountable and responsive to them – then you must be against absolute or near absolute secrecy in government.

Yet in the United States of America, a nation whose people consider their country to be a democracy, too many Americans accept the idea that their government must have the power of absolute secrecy in order to protect them against external enemies.

We see it in the widespread acceptance that our government must have: the power to monitor communications between American citizens even without the minimal requirement of first obtaining a warrant; the power to detain people without allowing them to challenge the validity of their detention; the power to hold elections with voting machines that count votes that can’t be recounted or verified; the power to hold secret meetings (as with Dick Cheney’s secret Energy Task Force); and more generally, the power of an American president to determine any government deliberation whatsoever http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/10/obama/">to be secret, based on his say-so alone, that to publicize the deliberation would pose a risk to “national security”.

The acceptance of near absolute secrecy by government is based upon two beliefs: that our government needs that power in order to protect us against external enemies; and that our government would never abuse that power by acting against our vital interests. I don’t hold either of those beliefs. The idea that a nation that spends almost as much money on its military as the rest of the world combined needs the power of absolute secrecy in order to protect its citizens seems absurd to me. And the idea that we can always count on our government to have benign intentions towards us is beyond absurd.

Well, we can’t have it both ways. We can have a democracy. Or we can have a nation in which our government has the power of near absolute secrecy. But we can’t have both – for the very simple reason that a government that is allowed to operate in absolute secrecy has enough power over its citizens to deny them effective control over their country and their lives – if it so chooses.


Secrecy and shadow government

The CIA was created by the National Security Act of 1947. Initially envisioned as an information gathering agency, it evolved into an agency that participated in the overthrow of numerous democratically elected foreign governments and their replacement with repressive dictatorships. This occurred in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Greece, and many other sovereign nations. These acts remained secret for many years, and when they finally did come to light they received little news coverage in the United States. It is likely that even today most Americans don’t know about these atrocities, or if they do they believe that there must have been some benign reason for them.

These are acts that no freedom loving people would tolerate. But the secrecy surrounding them, in combination with the human tendency to psychologically deny distasteful things (otherwise known as the ‘ostrich syndrome’), ensured that there has been little outrage in our country against them.

Moreover, it would be a big mistake to assume that an organization engaged in such dark and secret activities would necessarily remain accountable and responsive even to the government and the people whom it is tacitly presumed to serve. Indeed, there have been several CIA agents who became disenchanted with their work, quit the Agency, and then wrote whistle-blowing books in which they noted that the CIA had become largely unaccountable to the U.S. government that it was supposed to serve. Two examples of whistle-blowing CIA agents are Philip Agee (“Inside the Company”) and Victor Marchetti (“The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence”)


Plans to invade and occupy Cuba

While John F. Kennedy was President, the CIA and the U.S. military made several attempts to get our country involved in war with Cuba. First they convinced the President to give them a green light on a secret invasion of Cuba by a CIA-supported group of Cuban exiles. The invasion occurred at the Bay of Pigs during April 15-19, 1961. When it didn’t work out as the CIA had promised, they urged Kennedy to send in the U.S. Air Force – which he refused to do, for fear of inciting a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.

A year later, on March 16, 1962, Kennedy’s Joint Chiefs of Staff presented “Operation Northwoods” to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. James Bamford described the plan in “Body of Secrets – Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency”. Operations Northwoods included plans to launch “a wave of violent terrorism” in several American cities and blame it on Castro, as an excuse for war. The idea was vetoed by McNamara and Kennedy.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis of October 18-29, 1962, Kennedy’s military advisors again aggressively tried to convince him to invade Cuba. Kennedy instead opted to resolve the crisis peacefully.

On March 19, 1963, the CIA sponsored Cuban exile group, Alpha 66, attacked a Soviet ship in Cuban waters. Further incidents followed, and Kennedy eventually had to use his military to stop the attacks, lest they lead to a nuclear confrontation with the Soviet Union.

The above episodes can be seen as part of a single process: an attempt by a shadow government to force a U.S. president into war. It took great strength and courage on President Kennedy’s part to repeatedly resist those efforts – which could otherwise have led us into a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.


Plans for “Continuity of Government”

During the Reagan administration, plans for so called “Continuity of Government” (COG) were greatly expanded. “Continuity of Government” is a benign sounding name. Almost all Americans would agree that it is important to have plans to continue our government in the event of a national emergency. But why do the plans have to be so secret? Peter Dale Scott explains in his book, “The Road to 9/11 – Wealth, Empire and the Future of America”:

“Continuity of government” is a reassuring title. It would be more honest, however, to call it a “change of government” plan, since according to Alfonso Chardy of the Miami Herald, the plan called for “suspension of the Constitution, turning control of the government over to FEMA, emergency appointment of military commanders to run state and local governments, and declaration of martial law during a national crisis.” The plan also gave the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which had been involved in drafting it, sweeping new powers, including internment.

Kathy Gill provides an overview of the history of “Continuity of Government” plans. Following the 9/11 attacks on our country, the Bush administration expanded the COG plans quite a bit. Of particular concern is the fact that, after the plan was reported by the U.S. press in March 2002, U.S. Congressional leaders said that “they didn’t know President Bush had established a shadow government”.

Also of great interest and concern is the involvement of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld in these plans over a long period of time. First of all, they were key actors in the revving up of the COG plans during the Reagan administration. Secondly, according to Andrew Cockburn, they were even active with the plan during the Clinton administration – apparently without President Clinton’s knowledge. From Peter Dale Scott’s book, Cockburn speaking about the COG plans during the Clinton presidency:

In earlier times the specialists selected to run the “shadow government” had been drawn from across the political spectrum, Democrats and Republicans alike. But now, down in the bunkers, Rumsfeld found himself in politically congenial company, the players’ roster being filled almost exclusively with Republican hawks. “… They’d meet, do the exercise, but also sit around and castigate the Clinton administration in the most extreme way,” a former Pentagon official with direct knowledge of the phenomenon told me. “You could say this was a secret government-in-waiting. The Clinton administration… had no idea what was going on”.


Mount Weather and the government-in-waiting

In 1976 Richard Pollock reported in Progressive Magazine the existence of the mysterious “Mount Weather”, located near Bluemont, Virginia:

Mount Weather is virtually an underground city, according to former personnel interviewed by Pollock… equipped with such amenities as private apartments and dormitories, streets and sidewalks, cafeterias and hospitals, a water purification system, power plant and general office buildings, its own mass transit system… Mount Weather is the self-sustaining underground command center for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). The facility is the operational center – the hub – of approximately 100 other Federal Relocation Centers… Together this network of underground facilities constitutes the backbone of America's "Continuity of Government" program. In the event of nuclear war, declaration of martial law, or other national emergency, the President, his cabinet and the rest of the Executive Branch would be "relocated" to Mount Weather… According to the Senate Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights hearings in 1975, Congress has almost no knowledge and no oversight – budgetary or otherwise – on Mount Weather…

Pollock described the system as a government-in-waiting:

High-level Governmental sources, speaking in the promise of strictest anonymity, told me that each of the Federal departments represented at Mount Weather is headed by a single person on whom is conferred the rank of a Cabinet-level official. Protocol even demands that subordinates address them as "Mr. Secretary." Each of the Mount Weather "Cabinet member" is apparently appointed by the White House and serves an indefinite term... many through several Administrations....The facility attempts to duplicate the vital functions of the Executive branch of the Administration…. As might be expected, there is also an Office of the Presidency at Mount Weather…. which regularly receives top secret national security estimates…

And the whole system is shrouded in strictest secrecy, despite the fact that we pay for it with our taxes:

Officially, Mount Weather (and its budget) does not exist. FEMA refuses to answer inquiries about the facility…


Disturbing “coincidences” relating to the COG

Scott notes two “arresting coincidences” in his book, regarding the COG. First is the fact that George W. Bush had the COG system “essentially reconstituted … as a terrorism task force” following the appointment of Dick Cheney to head a terrorism task force. Then, just four months later, following the September 11 attacks, he had the opportunity to implement those plans.

The other coincidence was Dick Cheney’s Energy Task Force – also a secret. As reported by Jane Mayer in The New Yorker magazine, she discovered:

a secret NSC document dated Feb. 3, 2001 – only two weeks after Bush took office – instructing NSC officials to cooperate with Cheney's task force, which was "melding" two previously unrelated areas of policy: "the review of operational policies towards rogue states" and "actions regarding the capture of new and existing oil and gas fields."

Not long after that we had our “rogue state”, along with its oil and gas fields.


Relevance to today

This is all very complicated. And the complexity is greatly magnified by the secrecy that surrounds it – notwithstanding the fact that some outstanding journalists have from time to time shone a light on some of the pieces. I certainly can’t put my head around it. But the one thing I feel certain of is that there are a great many very important projects going on, which concern us greatly, and which we pay for, but without our input or knowledge. I certainly don’t know the precise extent of this. But to the extent that this kind of stuff happens, our country is not a democracy.

A recent DU post by seafan discussed how our military has aggressively worked to pressure President Obama into war, in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran. To what extent that pressure has led to Obama’s escalation of our war in Afghanistan, and to what extent it will lead the Obama administration into future wars is an open question at this time. If President Obama has allowed the military hawks to pressure him into escalating our war in Afghanistan, he certainly wouldn’t be the first. Even President Kennedy, who valiantly resisted his military and CIA, and probably died for doing so, allowed them to pressure him into giving a green light to a CIA-sponsored invasion of Cuba and sending 15,000 “advisors” to Vietnam.

But despite all that we don’t know, some things are virtually certain. Most Americans do not want war, and our livelihoods are gravely threatened by it. No only does it kill and maim our young men and women, but we ruin our international reputation, put the security of our citizens at grave risk, and lose trillions of dollars in resources that could otherwise go towards health care or other much needed social programs. But as long as the cult of secrecy remains an acceptable principle of government policy, the war hawks, warmongers, war profiteers – whatever you want to call them – will continue to have their way. We will continue to use the taxes of ordinary Americans to pay for unnecessary, immoral and illegal wars. We will continue to bailout mega-corporations and the billionaires who own and run them. And we will continue to ignore the most pressing needs of ordinary Americans.
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. good post
can you say Rex84?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Things may have changed dramatically when JFK replaced CIA director....
Dulles with McCone:

"In 1961 he owned 1 million dollars worth of stock in Standard Oil of California. After his appointment he offered to sell them, but the Senate Armed Services Committee concluded that this unnecessary, although Sen. Clark of Pennsylvania protested that the American Oil industry, like the CIA, was deeply involved in the politics of the Middle East.

What was the reason behind Kennedy's choice? It has been suggested that "with a conservative Republican at the head of the invisible government, the President clearly thought that political fire would be somewhat diverted". The fact is that the world of intelligence was repugnant to President Kennedy, although he was well aware of its power.
--"Farewell America", pages 307-308.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Kennedy made some compromises as president
But I also think that he bucked his military and CIA more than any president since -- and that that is a major reason why he was assassinated. I talk about that in this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5757851

I don't know much about McCone. But I think that Dulles was pretty bad -- he was a major force in the Eisenhower administration behind the replacement of popular heads of state in Iran and Guatemala with repressive right wing regimes. And he lied to JFK about the Bay of Pigs in an attempt to encourage a full scale invasion of Cuba with the U.S. military -- which is why JFK fired him.

Do you think that McCone was worse than Dulles?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. On the surface Dulles would appear much worse...

but McCone seemed to be a bigger industrialist directly involved in the oil industry and the Bechtel monopoly, which seems to mark an uncomfortable merger of secret government and global industry, with major projects benefitting Saudi Arabia and even links to the Bin Ladin family of industrialists. This theme seems to have been carried through both Bush Administrations.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is what our incredibly bloated "defense" budget goes for, I assume. Picture a world of
these RW creeps scurrying down to their underworld to protect their cube steaks from being grabbed by the marauding hordes above ground. Rats to a rat hole...
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. You've got to ask yourself, do I want a country that overthrows democratically elected presidents
Edited on Thu Oct-22-09 06:04 PM by Sinti
and installs corporate-friendly dictators in their place? What kind of country does that, anyway? It's not as if all the actions are done by some small, covert club of extraordinary persons. It's systemic. Even today members of Congress give their support to the military overthrow of a democratically elected president in Honduras.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Yes, it's very disturbing, and it certainly IS systemic
I hope to see the day when my country officially recognize these actions for the atrocities that they are, apologizes for them, and resolves not to commit them in the future.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. One item I find extremely frightening:
Over 93% of ALL Americans (Democrats and Republicans) support Transparent and Verifiable elections. This issue would be a easy WIN/WIN for the Democrats.


After what happened to the Democratic Party in 2000 and 2004, you would think this would be a Top of the List Burning Hot Priority for the Democratic Party.

And yet, not a peep. It has fallen completely off the table.

WHY?

There is only one answer.


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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. and what IS it?? ("only one answer")


i have a guess or two, but... it must be the pessimist in me. (i admit, i've been rather pessimistic lately.) :(
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I think there are a few reasons for that
For one thing, Alan Grayson wasn't in Congress then.

The more general reason is that our elected Democratic Congresspersons have allowed the corporate media to dominate the national discussion. They essentially proclaimed in 2000 and 2004 that anyone who challenged the election results was a "conspiracy theorist", rude, whacko, you name it. It was made into a taboo subject. And it was very disappointing to see Democrats going along with that.

That's why Grayson seems like such a breath of fresh air to me. It's not only that he's challenging what is and is not acceptable -- by doing so he's showing our whole country that the story lines of our corporate media, which is a major reason why Congress is so far to the right, can be challenged without adverse consequences. This could start an avalanche of other Congresspersons doing something similar. I love it!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. I am quite certain that a few powerful Dems were quite happy with the results of 2000, 2002 and 2004
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 09:11 AM by blm
because they deliberately chose to look the other way in the mid and late 90s when the fascists were gaining control of the vote and the vote counting in states that were known to be crucial to electoral victory.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I agree with you, blm. There's a syndrome that sets in among our elected representatives
that manifests as a feeling of superiority over the "uninformed" masses (aka American citizens, the electorate, the people, etc.).

Once the Representative or Senator is ensconced in his/her lifetime (usually) position, they are taken in by the ruling elites and their representatives in government, industry, and finance and treated like members of the inner circle of knowledge and power--even though they are merely pawns in the game.

The schmoozing with the beltway insiders and movers-and-shakers reaffirms the elected representatives' perception that they are somehow "better" and wiser than the riff-raff who have no access to the information or the individuals that they have access to. So, over a period of time, MOST of these elected officials begin to see US (yes, you and me) as their subjects more than their constituents. I will say now that not all of them develop this syndrome, but most certainly do.

Access to free (or nearly free) healthcare that is excellent and taken for granted for the Elected Ones but only available to some of the sheeple, is just one example of how these folks feel that we do not deserve what they deserve. Of course, there are many other examples, but you know what they are, so I won't bore you by listing them.

Essentially they become a CLASS above us. An elected aristocracy who only see things from their rarified perches, while we struggle down at ground level.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. The only reason?
Because those "in power" don't want a Transparent and Publicly Verifiable Election System. Otherwise, they would change it.


Elections have consequences, and are way too important to be left up to the whims of a voting public.
The illusion of choice and a "two party system" MUST be maintained.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. I think that applies to a lot of those in power
But not all of them. I think that there are many who would like to see transparent elections, but who are intimidated against complaining about stolen elections.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. KR#5 for another great post by my favorite DU poster!
:applause:

:yourock:



BTW, I keep hoping that you will write a definitive assay on the Health Care Reform (or, is it... Deform?...)

....

(just sayin'.) :hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Thank you very much inna
:hi:

I've written several posts on health care reform -- though I wouldn't call any of them definitive. It's a tough issue... The battlefield keeps on changing. What is it that you had in mind?
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R.
Thanks for another amazing post.

I did not realize how extensive those COG plans were, nor about the existence of the Govt in Waiting.

Yes I do wish Americans would take a good look at our military spending compared to that of the rest of the world and reduce it. I had hoped serious prosecution of the Bush Gang for their war crimes might open that door.

But any serious attempt to do so might lead us into conflict with the COG denizens.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Thank you -- I'm with you on that
I was so disappointed that this administration chose not to pursue the Bush administration crimes. So much good could have come from that. But I'm afraid that there are powerful people pulling strings behind the curtain... so much we don't know about.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R Much appreciation for your time, thought, and energy in writing this! nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Thank you puebloknot
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you
Most people don't realize the type of enemy we're dealing with.
It shows in their ridicule.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. I never really understood
Why Citizens thought it was good that our leaders had underground bunkers and hideouts to run to if there was a nuclear war. If anything, I'd rather make sure that my leaders were dying with me...at least that way I think they'd be less inclined to do anything that might cause a nuclear disaster.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. That's a great idea.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. k & r
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. There you go again--blaming gov't abuses on us.
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 06:16 AM by clear eye
Last week it was the wars in the Mid-East (which we massively opposed and still oppose), and now it is gov't secrecy and clandestine behavior.

Firstly, the whole thrust of gov't clandestine activities, by definition, is to remain unknown from the American people and everyone else. Usually they do. When they come to the attention of the public, who are not all policy wonks glued to news sources, the public gets pretty upset. One of the most intense objections to gov't activity I've ever seen, and I include the Viet Nam war in the comparison, was to the violations of FISA. There was an absolute deluge of Internet chatter across the political spectrum decrying the situation and e-petition after e-petition generated. There were even sporadic small street demonstrations. It only stopped when all public input to the gov't was stonewalled, and a major law passed legalizing the hated activity.

People are leery of getting more confrontational than that, so, with no better idea, they gave up. Do you think they should have gone further? When was the last time you chained yourself to gov't property to make a point about freedom, or peace, or anything else? Did you organize even a local protest? Are you even using this essay to organize any form of useful pushback against what you so decry? Are you even willing to stick your neck out in your essay far enough to include Pres. Obama's latest activities to expand on ability of the Executive Dept. to act secretly? (If you're not aware of this administration's activities, I suggest reading the latest on the Electronic Frontier Foundation website. One would hope you might have checked on this prime Internet resource before writing extensively on the topic.) Does not doing any of the above make you, too, one of the "too many people" who "accept the idea that their government must have the power of absolute secrecy in order to protect them against external enemies"?

Since truly massive #'s of people did raise objections to those secret activities of which they were aware, despite a lack of major media objections, and you are doing nothing more than they did, how does that make them part of the problem, and not you?

The examples you give throughout, w/ the exception of unverifiable elections, are either 40 years old or about the least damaging to public empowerment of gov't's clandestine activities. I wish Cheney had been actively running a terrorism task force prior to 9/11, instead of taking endless meetings w/ his buddies in Enron & elsewhere to plot the looting of the U.S. Treasury. The murders of 3000 people might have been prevented. What about the secrecy of no-bid war-profiteering? What about what's going on now in expanding Internet surveillance and extending and shoring up the Orwellian-entitled Patriot Act? Even in health care reform, secrecy has been injected into the regulatory process. The WH lobbied and got oversight for the new program away from Congressional committees which oversee traditional Medicare, and into an unaccountable Presidentially appointed committee whose yearly package of changes are subject to no elected or judicial recourse. This was after attempting to do so earlier with traditional Medicare, but being rebuffed by Congress. One wonders if putting the new program into Medicare isn't setting the stage for removing Congressional oversight from the old Medicare as well with some sort of unification.

The only points I can make out in your conclusion is not only is the issue too "complex" to understand, much less do anything about, but we can't do anything to stop the current wars either w/o dealing with this impregnable gov't secrecy first, which is impossible. Isn't that empowering?

So, you exempt yourself and, possibly, the readers from any need to actually tackle the issue in some concrete way, while pointing your finger at other victims as the enablers of the serious gov't misbehavior du jour.

The entire point of this repeated exercise seems to be to substitute unearned feelings of superiority or impotent guilt (depending on whether the reader identifies w/ the author or the "too many people") for action on whatever critical issue you write about.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
22. Recommend. Another excellent and timely post. Thank you, Time for change.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Thank you bertman
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. Video link for The Iran-contra cover-up (1988) lots of info on this re the current phony "war."
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Thank you for the link
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
26. Bump
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. The perfect world
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 03:42 PM by billh58
that you, and other pacifists, envision would indeed be a wonderful place to live in, if it were not for the very real fact that there are human monsters remaining. We are only a generation or so removed from monsters like Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Kim ll-Sung, and the list goes on.

The world remains a dangerous place, and the "cold war" is far from over. Humankind has not evolved enough to to be safe from her own species, and greed remains as the driving force which separates us from the relative harmony and peaceful coexistence which prevails among the "lower" animals. Throw in a pinch of man-made religion, add some human-generated xenophobia, bigotry, and racism, and you've got a recipe for endless aggression and turmoil.

All major "civilizations" have (and have had throughout the ages) secrets, and secret government operations. They also have organizations which exist for the sole purpose of infiltrating each other's secret government operations. We can, to some extent, reel in our own government, but we can not control the governments of despots, dictators, and monsters. Until there is an evolutionary and advanced "world government" which can realistically establish world order, there will always be conflict, and the perceived need for "secrets."

Unfortunately, since the end of WWII the United States has apparently taken on the role of "policeman to the world," and many other civilizations do not appreciate it. In the end, it all boils down to a greedy scuffle for the world's remaining raw resources by a few powerful people around the globe. Sadly, only evolution or extinction can solve mankind's self-inflicted misery.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. So, are you saying that it's ok for our government to overthrow democratically elected governments
throughout the world and keep that secret from the American people?

And btw, I'm not a pacifist. I simply believe that my own government poses a risk to me and world civilization that is as bad or worse than external threats.

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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I have no idea
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 04:07 PM by billh58
where you got the impression that I said that either the overthrow of a legitimate government, or keeping secrets about it was "ok." I said nothing of the sort, and why would you automatically assume that being called a "pacifist" is a bad thing? Calling for an isolationist policy is a time-honored, and valid, school-of-thought.

I merely pointed out that government "secrets" have, and will continue to exist for as long as different civilizations distrust each other. Exposing "secrets" to the American people, is the same as exposing them to the world, and would make them pointless in the first place. Our elected representatives are privy to many "secrets" that the general public will never hear about. Is that a "good thing?" Probably not, but it is true, and for the most part it is Constitutional under our form of representative democracy (as opposed to a direct democracy).
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I didn't mean to imply that being called a pacifist was a bad thing
I just said that I'm not a pacifist.

It is true that it is important for governments to have some secrets. But when they have too many secrets, or secrets about the wrong things, those secrets can be a lot more harmful than beneficial to the people that the government is supposed to serve. Or, another way of saying that is that governments can abuse the privilege of having secrets, and use them against the people that they are elected to serve. I believe that happens a lot in our country.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I totally agree
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 05:00 PM by billh58
with all that you have said, and I believe that abusing the need for secrecy is due to a lack of oversight by the combined Congress: our elected representatives.

When certain members of Congress are briefed by an agency about a particular clandestine operation, or a secret Executive Order, etc., they all too often accept what they are being told with no further questions. On the other hand, those "secrets" that Congress does question, and either alters, or disapproves, remain secret as well.

Finally, the documentation that you have provided about the COG plan, and other Executive actions, is apparently "out there" for anyone to see. I guess that I'm just having a little trouble understanding how known secrets can still be viewed as "secret," and if they are nefarious but exposed secrets, why are they not being addressed by the Congress? Or, is the entire government, and all of its civilian and military employees a part of some grand conspiracy?

I suspect that some government "secrets" are purposely leaked to the public in order to further muddy the water. There is nothing like a good conspiracy theory supported by half-truths with which to create a "credible" defense to an otherwise outrageous accusation. Psyops are enigmas wrapped in conundrums, and are most often used as "shiny object" diversions.

IOW, it isn't what you think you know that is the cause for the most concern, but that which you have absolutely no clue about.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. There have been many government secrets throughout history that came to public attention
through dilligent efforts of journalists or other concerned citizens. So, just because something is now known doesn't mean that it wasn't meant as a government secret. Our government's overthrow of so many democratically elected governments throughout the world were almost all meant to be secrets. When dirty secrets are exposed it should reasonably make one wonder how many others are out there that we don't know about. You don't have to be some sort of "loony conspiracy theorist" to be suspicious of a system under which so many grave abuses have been exposed. And furthermore, a lot of these "known" secrets are not known to the good majority of Americans. As long as a critical number of people do not know about them, governments can continue to get away with them.

Having said all that, you are right that some things are leaked to muddy the waters. I certainly don't claim to have a full picture of what's going on. But I do think that the things that I discussed in this OP are worth thinking about.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. All too true,
and peace...:toast:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Peace
:toast:
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. even with 'oversight'
"some" secrecy remains or better said, perjury is an option used.

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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. I read the article by James Mann about Reagan's COG plans.
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 04:07 PM by tritsofme
Not very many good scenarios ending involving a nuclear exchange with the Soviets.

I didn't care to read the rest of the post, but thanks for an interesting read.
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
42. Google Peter Dale Scott & COG
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
43. Proper weekend reading.
:kick:
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
44. After the trillions for bailouts

increasing the debt, and job losses decreasing tax revenues, there is not much left (if anything), to pay for wars. I worry for the future.
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