Apparently, Cho set fire to a dormitory. WHY was he still at Tech???

[Nikki Stone1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/Story/0,,2059726,00.html


"The killer behind America's deadliest mass shooting had come to the attention of police as early as 2005, the Guardian learned yesterday. Cho Seung-hui was revealed to be a troubled loner of South Korean descent who left behind a disturbing note of grievances against his university saying: "You caused me to do this."
Police investigating the Virginia Technical College massacre, which left 33 dead, mainly students, blamed Cho, a fourth-year English student who lived on the campus, for earlier incidents ranging from stalking women to setting fire to a dormitory. The police suspect he was also behind persistent recent bomb threats.

Professor Lucinda Roy, a former head of the English department, said Cho had caused alarm in 2005 for taking illicit mobile phone photographs of women from under the desks and writing an essay brimming with rage.

At the time, she emailed Cho expressing her concerns and also contacted campus police, the legal department and counselling services. Cho responded with a long, angry and incoherent email.
(snip)

[Radio_Lady]

1. He looks like the son of a friend of mine who runs the local cleaning establishment.

I wonder how Kyung feels about this? I will restrain myself from asking him, though -- I just know the answer. He looks like the Korean boy next door.

[AZBlue]

4. It's funny you say that -

I was thinking earlier he looked like he might be of mixed race to me (of course one picture is not a way to determine that). Still, I wonder if one of his parents is not Korean?

[Nikki Stone1]

7. His race is not the issue. His bizarre (maybe psychotic) behavior is AND the fact

that everyone noticed it and some people (like his English teacher) tried to do something about it, but the college was powerless to send him the fuck home to his parents or get him off the campus.

[AZBlue]

15. I totally agree.

It was just a side comment. Didn't mean to offend.

And...that may be one of the questions asked once shock wears off - was the university really powerless in this situation? I realize the disturbing writings and other bizarre behavior might have been questionable for them to act on, but taking pictures up girls skirts is illegal, I believe, and setting fire certainly is! Those two alone should have warranted some action on the part of the school.

[Nikki Stone1]

19. Exactly. These behaviors should have resulted in arrest before any shootings

I wonder why the college acted as if it were impotent.

[barb162]

38. Unless the school could prove it was he who did certain

things, they couldn't touch him. Same with the cops.

[barb162]

36. A shrink on TV said he was psychotic, paranoid, for starters and

fit the profile of a mass murderer.

[Radio_Lady]

32. I am not astute enough to know the difference between Asian faces...

and mixed race Asian faces... just by looking at them.

[Nikki Stone1]

40. The race is so unimportant here. It's about a cluster of behaviors that needed to be recognized

and acted on. Even some of the students who knew Cho thought he could be a school shooter. But they didn't know what to do about it.

Focusing on race is a red herring. This could happen with any race.

[Radio_Lady]

51. Of course, Nikki Stone. I agree with that. The teacher came close by

notifying the police. But they said unless there was proof that he was going to hurt himself or someone else, they couldn't do anything.

We had a similar situation with a person in our own family in Boston years ago. I won't go into details, but we had reason to believe he had a gun which he carried in his work. He was threatening a public personality in New York City. I insisted the young family member go to a local hospital to be worked up by a psychiatrist.

The report came back that he was only delusional on this one philosophical issue (it was an author who had almost completely taken over his identity)! The doctor could do nothing because the belief was that he was not a threat to himself or anyone else. To this day, I don't know why not, since I heard his threats myself!

I ended up having to call the family in New York and tell them to hire bodyguards because our family member was a gun-totin' nutcase and might be coming to get them. I sent them photos of him and must have scared the s*** out of them.

The family member was subsequently diagnosed with manic depression and we don't know if he is still taking his medications. I hope so.

[nam78_two]

48. Wtf does the race have to do with anything here?nt

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[AZBlue]

2. Why indeed?!

I feel sorry for Professor Roy. I hope she realizes that she did all she could, went above and beyond what many others would have done, and, if there's any blame to place for this (which I'm not convinced is a good thing anyway) it's certainly not with her. I'm worried about her actually - she's a perfect candidate for Survivor's Guilt.

[fooj]

3. You've got me.

I can't figure that one out for the life of me. Isn't that a CRIME?

[Nikki Stone1]

5. And why isn't the American press talking about it?

I had to read it in the damned Guardian

[fooj]

8. It's bullshit. Something STINKS.

Seriously.

[MADem]

14. Well, it could be that the morning papers are OUT now in the UK.

The sun rises earlier in London. It doesn't rise here for another five or six hours.

[Nikki Stone1]

21. The sunrise is not necessary for internet editions, dear

The New York Times should have the same info posted. They post all night.

[fooj]

23. I heard it on KO tonight. I think that was about it, though.

[MADem]

30. Well, there's more info on the NYT site than there is in the Guardian.

Several stories, all leading. Last update was 12:52.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18virginia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18gunman.html?hp

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18german.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/us/18bloggerscnd.html

[Nikki Stone1]

35. Good Lord, MADem. This isn't about quantity. It's about quality of information

And the Guardian wins hands down.

[MADem]

50. I disagree. I think this is pretty damned comprehensive.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/v/virginia_polytechnic_institute_and_state_university/index.html

I'll bash NYT when they deserve it, but they don't in this instance. There's everything there from original reporting to video to links. It covers every angle.

I don't go for bashing for bashing's sake. This isn't about 'quantity.' It's about full scale coverage.

[silverojo]

53. The US press is just late reporting it, apparently

I just heard it on CNN a minute ago.

[-..__...]

6. Why wasn't he charged, arrested...

and if found guilty, fined and put in prison, then after time served, deported?

[Nikki Stone1]

10. Dunno. Am looking at papers from other countries that seem to have more info

We're going to find out that the school was really remiss, more than just the Keystone Cops blundering with their "domestic" situation.

[AZBlue]

16. They always have more info - I read the Guardian regularly for real facts.

eom

[Nikki Stone1]

18. The Guardian is really a good paper. Puts the M$M to shame

....

[rocktivity]

9. Did he START the fire, or did he SET it?

I assumed he'd started it accidently because it didn't result in him being kicked out of school. Well, that's what I get for being logical...

:eyes:
rocknation

[Nikki Stone1]

12. The Guardian says he set it.

So the logical result would be for him to be kicked out of school.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/Story/0,,2059726,00.html

[Nikki Stone1]

17. And the London Times

Police sources said that in recent weeks Cho had been treated for depression, had begun to stalk women and had tried to start a fire in a campus dormitory

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1668735.ece

[kestrel91316]

11. I'd think arson on campus and stalking on campus would be likely to get

a person EXPELLED, but that's just me.

[Nikki Stone1]

13. You'd think. I wonder who dropped the ball on this one.

....

[barb162]

46. Others papers say he tried setting a fire

Tne guy was operating on the edge

[AZBlue]

20. OK, the clues begin to pile up:

According to the Chicago Tribune, citing college officials, Cho even had time to post a deadly warning on a school online forum. He is reported to have written: "I’m going to kill people at vtech today."

and

"Last year Cho shared a campus house with three other students, who were also baffled by his behaviour. He hardly said a word all year, they revealed, but began stalking their female friends and pestering them with messages.

Confronted by his housemates, Cho sent an instant message to them, saying: “I want to kill myself.” They called the authorities and Cho was taken away for a couple of days for counselling. Cho opened up only once, revealing to his housemates during a late-night conversation that he had an imaginary girlfriend, a supermodel. The imaginary couple called each other “Spanky” and “Jelly”.

Again from a British newspaper: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1668735.ece

[Nikki Stone1]

22. All this criminal activity and NOTHING was done?

The parents of the dead need to see this

[AZBlue]

25. yeah, they really do

I defended - in a way - the actions of the university and the police for not notifying everyone at first, when they thought it was a domestic violence case. I can kind of see that (although some facts now coming out make me question that even).

However, these facts are beyond reason. I went to VA Tech and I could have gotten thrown off campus for having a boy in my room past midnight - now, granted, times have changed, but I'm pretty sure arson and stalking are still illegal.

[Nikki Stone1]

26. Yes, arson and stalking are illegal. Why the hell was he still on campus?

I don't get it. They just left a ticking time bomb in among a nice group of kids. This Cho was a known quantity. He didn't come out of nowhere.

[joshcryer]

56. The 4chan posting is confirmed fake, he did not go and make a post...

...as per the various rumors. It was fake. 100%.

[Alcibiades]

24. Let's keep this quiet, handle it ourselves

is the mantra of every Dean of Students. They don't want anything to reflect badly on the school, and so they tend not to do things that might raise a stink, such as expelling a student. Parents can also be influential. A kid with supportive parents to go to bat for him with the administration is at a big advantage, particularly if that parent mentions he is willing to engage in some sort of legal action. School administrators also think that the antics of college kids are generally harmless--no matter how many red flags Cho sent up, I guarantee you that the administrators have seen students with worse conduct problems who, when given a second chance, went on to graduate and become loyal alumni.

A cynic would ask why you would ever expel a kid whose tuition checks don't bounce The thing is, that the decision the administrators at VT made would have been the right one, 99.999% of the time.

That being said, I would have expelled him, no ifs, ands, or buts, but I'm old school.

[AZBlue]

27. Wouldn't the university have some responsibility to Cho too?

Let's forget the responsibility to other students for a second, as hard as that is now - he was obviously ill, he threatened suicide, he was demonstrating reckless actions to himself as well as others - didn't they have a responsibility to step in and make sure he got help? Or at least bring his parents in and have a long talk with them about the help their son needed? Let's say this had ended very differently, with Cho killing only himself - I still would be outraged that the university had stood by and done nothing.

[Nikki Stone1]

33. Excellent point

By doing nothing, they let things get a lot worse for everyone

[Alcibiades]

37. The campus disciplinary system

probably does not involve their counseling center. Sad to say, but my experience (such as it is) with these matters leads me to believe that your typical Dean of Students is more concerned with what alumni might think, rather than with the mental health of any given student.

[Nikki Stone1]

42. And that is the biggest crime, Alcibiades

So concerned about alumni donations and reputation that they are willing to let a disturbed student remain untreated.

I can tell you that some VT alums I know now are very upset. So much for ignoring a problem and hoping it will go away.

[Nikki Stone1]

29. This is more than just young boys behaving badly

This was someone who so creeped out his English class that 63 out of 70 students refused to come to class because they were afraid of him. That's not just little Mikey drinking too much and vomiting all over the dorm room. This was one scary son of a bitch. With all the other things he did, the university should have expelled him.

[Alcibiades]

41. I quite agree

but most of your "student life" types are not terribly sophisticated about mental health issues. Most of them sort of stumble into the job. Usually, the only consequences for them are when something makes the school look bad, which is why "let's keep this quiet" is a mantra. In the end, they wind up being unable to tell the difference between the scary, psychotic college creep and the regular kind.

[Nikki Stone1]

44. What background do these student life types have?

Psych majors?

[Alcibiades]

60. It's actually not predicated on any particular major

Usually it's experience. Today, many are former Resident Advisors. After they do that in college, they will get jobs working as the supervisor of a few resident advisors, then to various jobs in the Student Life office (or whatever it's called at any given institution), getting kicked upstairs until, according to the Peter Principle, they reach the level of their own incompetence.

This is in contrast with the counseling departments at most schools, which are usually headed by a Ph.D., maybe with a couple of master's level counselors under him/her.

[mconvente]

47. Where did you read that information about the kids not want to go to class with him??

That seems very telling and disturbing...

[Iwasthere]

64. is this true?

Where can I find that (63 of 70)?

[Iwasthere]

65. Everyone seemed to have glossed this over....

That is very critical and very telling. That one fact needs to be out there big time imo!

[ChenZhen]

28. Had a friend that did the same at a Virginian Uni...

At least that what his record would of read. He really just got drunk and set a pizza box on fire when he was a Freshman in the shower (at a private college about 40 minutes from Blacksburg).

He just got kicked out of University housing for a year, slept in a little cubby hole under the stairs at a friends house, showered once a week. Was kind of sad to watch.

Anyway, he wasn't kicked out. He graduated and got a good job.

Universities often try to foster learning and promote better citizens. They don't always share the same philosophy of throwing pot smokers and small time offenders in jail like states like California. I guess the point is hindsight is 20/20 and its easy to point a finger but you do not know the circumstances completely of the incidence, his plea, the schools consideration of such and their philosophy, etc. My school helped my friend and he was able to successfully move on in life. This certainly doesn't always happen, but I would assert success obtained after leniency in college may happen more often than failure. Who knows...

Again, at another juncture in our countries history when people should be feeling sorrowful and asking questions and trying to piece this all together, they are instead pointing fingers, finding blame, arguing, etc. The absence of thoughtful intellectualism that awoke me following 9/11 are quickly persuading me to fall asleep (I am growing tired).

[Nikki Stone1]

31. Chen, there are so many incidents with this Cho guy that it's ludicrous that he wasn't expelled

I won't speak to the issue of your friend with a pizza box except to say that it was right that he was kicked out of university housing. He was a danger to other students. But I'll bet your friend didn't set off alarm bells with faculty and students, stalk young women he barely knew, take pictures of them under the desk on his cell phone, threaten to kill himself, and write on a message board that he was going to kill a bunch of people at his university and send bomb threats.

This kid was not your normal boy behaving badly. He was a sick f%ck and needed to be off that campus.

[ChenZhen]

54. The point is you don't know until you have hindsight

Another friend I knew had multiple instances of battery, once included a maglight, charged with kidnapping two females (intresting story behind that one), and many drug offenses. Graduated, married, studying law at law school.


I have multiple instances of people behaving badly....people who were and people who were not kicked out. Many people improved their lives throughout their span at college and after.


You are looking with a magnifying glass at stats and reports on paper, not listening to conflicting stories, counseling people, administrating a university. There are so many factors that you are absolutely ignoring that people have to consider and go through when these things come up. You have zero insight of what the situations were at the time. This is a bit reactionary in my opinion. I honestly do not think the state of our education system and nation at large would be in a better position if they all went to a black and white, X number of strikes and you're out policy. These are young minds and institutions of learning.

No one has a crystal ball into the future...we only have murky ones into the past.

[Gregorian]

34. What a shame! He was disturbed, and no one noticed.

Only his closest associates.

You know, this is really at the heart of what I dislike about (insert name of society here). I want to say America. But I think it's any modern society. We're all geared for business.

I have to say, when I went to college, I didn't expect what happened. I found it was less teaching, and more preparation for the corporate world.

What I really want to say is that we need a more vigilant, supportive society. Everyone is flying around in their stinking automobiles, going to and from. And the hell with those who can't hack it.

That isn't to say that Cho wasn't some hideous creature. But let's back up and see him before he was. That's what I'm talking about. Let's be proactive.

And the same with health care! Not major surgery after the five arteries clog. But proactive thinking and acting before it happens. Not everyone responds the same way. But at least we could do better than we are.

There aren't many Cho's in this world. But there might be many many more just like him who don't act on it. And that is an absolute sin of modern society.

[Nikki Stone1]

39. "we need a more vigilant, supportive society"--yes

If some high school teacher had noticed Cho and acted on it, the family would have been forced to do something about this kid. Child Protective Services could have been brought in.

Students like Cho are unpleasant to deal with and teachers are overworked, underpaid, and might let a Cho slide because they simply don't have the energy for him. But someone needs to deal with the Chos of the world before they become killers.

[barb162]

43. Maybe the fire caused no damage and nobody could prove he

did it.

[Nikki Stone1]

45. The paper does not say he was suspected of starting a fire--it says he DID

That means they had to know it was him.

Whether the fire ends up causing great damage or not, arson is a crime. The intent to burn student housing down should have been enough for him to have been kicked off campus. He was a danger to other students at that moment, even before buying any firearms.

[barb162]

49. but your post 17 (Times) says he tried .

Anyway, what if he started a fire in a garbage can and they confronted him and he said Oh I wasn't trying to burn anything down. And it did zero damage because all he did was burn garbage. SHould they have taken him in? For what ? Property damage when there was none?

I am not defending this fucking crazy. I am just looking at it from the cops' position. All of his threatening behavior can be looked at as pranks , especially if he never caused bodily harm or property damage to anyone prior to this.

[Eurobabe]

52. I smell a HUGE lawsuit coming....

Why wasn't this student investigated??

[RFKHumphreyObama]

57. When I lived on campus -not in the US though-

There was a guy who started acting threatening toward a fellow student -I think he may threatened her with a knife eventually. He was escorted off campus under police supervision and never returned.

I must concede that the same questions are running through my head -as I'm sure they are running through the heads of many people -about why this student wasn't expelled for what has been listed as his past offences. I'm pretty he probably would have been in the residential hall in which I lived

[Irreverend IX]

59. When I was a student...

I got to know an RA a couple years after I moved out of the dorms. She had all kinds of stories about the problem students who lived in her building and the ham-handed way the administration dealt with them. There was one schizophrenic guy who would regularly go off his meds and end up wandering around the halls naked and threatened other residents with violence.

But no one would take any action, from the director of the hall to the school administrators. They'd had problems with him before and they knew his parents would make a big stink if he was kicked out, so their strategy was to cover their asses and ignore his behavior. This girl also told me that RAs were under strict instructions not to talk to the media about anything that went on in the dorms. There were other problem residents too: stalkers, violent drunks and such, but unless they put someone in the hospital or got arrested by the city police (not the university PD) nothing would be done about it.

[Reader Rabbit]

61. Probably the same reason that info aboutcampus rapes rarely comes out

PR.

The university doesn't want the negative press. Things are handled internally, so as to avoid making waves. It's not about justice for the victim, or protecting the students, or preventing crime. It's to keep the school from looking less than rosy, which might endanger funds.

[Virginia Dare]

62. Not to mention he was known to have been stalking women..

and he was still living in the DORM????? That is complete bullshit.

[Penndems]

63. Exactly - just started to post this

n/t