I'm guessing this guy picked the wrong kid to fondle?

[trumad]

As Chris Rock would say---"I don't condone it---But I understand it".



DAVIE - Luke Petruschke was so badly beaten after allegedly molesting a 3-year-old boy that when he was booked into jail this morning, he could barely keep his swollen eye open for his booking photo.

After spending the weekend in a hospital, Petruschke was released today and immediately placed under arrest on a molestation charge. He is being held without bail at the Broward County Main Jail. So is the the father of the boy who he is accused of fondling.

Petruschke's booking photo shows extensive bruising of the face. Over the weekend, doctors at Memorial Regional Hospital in Hollywood had placed him in a medically induced coma to fight for his life after Davie police said two men nearly beat him to death with a concrete block.

Krish Carter and Manuel Vega launched the attack Saturday after Vega's son told his father that Petruschke had fondled him, police said. Now the two men both face one count each of attempted murder.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/davie/sfl-molestation-beating-b102509,0,834973.story

[seabeyond]

1. ---"I don't condone it---But I understand it".

i was trying to figure out how to say it, and looked back up at chris rock quote. yes. i hope the men get a slap on wrist or probation or something, but no jail time

[NashVegas]

24. If They Were Willing to Take the Risk of Being Thrown In Jail, I Have No Problem

With their actions.

[dysfunctional press]

29. what if the kid was lying?

still no problem...?

[NashVegas]

30. That's Not the Point

If they're willing to take responsibility for their actions, is really the only thing that matters IMO.

[dysfunctional press]

34. so- as long as someone is willing to do the time, the crime is acceptable?

as long as timothy mcviegh didn't mind being put to death, it was okay for him to blow up the federal building?


that is some PRETTY FUCKED UP way of thinking you've got there.

[NashVegas]

40. Yes. It Is Okay To Beat the Crap Out of Someone Who Molests Kids

Deal with it.

[dysfunctional press]

44. that wasn't the question.

but then- comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

[NashVegas]

54. THAT Wasn't the Subject

clue: if you want to try moving the goal posts, that's your option. whether or not I or anyone else chooses to play along, is our option.

[dysfunctional press]

63. but you did advocate the pummeling of an innocent man- as long as the perps do the time.

and that is one sick fucking way to think.

[NashVegas]

66. You Know He's Innocent, Do You?

I'm not such a psychic. I advocate the pummeling of child molesters. If it turns out he's not one, get back to me.

[dysfunctional press]

70. i asked "what if the kid is lying?", and you replied that you'd still have no problem with it...

as long as the perps did the time for their actions.

and THAT is one sick, fucking, demented way to think.

your mom must be SO proud.

[Sebass1271]

171. that is very low. What does his/her mom has to do with it?

you are assuming the child is lying and by doing so, you are argument is pretty fuck up!!

[DireStrike]

203. He isn't assuming anything

What part of "what if" means "I assume"?

The respondent definitely said that in a situation where the child was lying, it would still be fine for the men to beat an innocent man near to death.

[Codeine]

77. I'm leaning toward the idea that he's guilty,

but I still don't believe we're justified in meting out violence on the strength of an accusation. I like the notion of finding actual guilt.

[NashVegas]

84. Assuming That's the Case

No matter how much of an asshole his old man might actually be, this kid is going to grow up knowing he's got family that's got his back and won't tolerate anyone messing with him. Much, much more than someone who left everything to the DA who may or may not prosecute and a jury that may or may not find 'guilty.'

Look, the brick? A bit much. Okay? I'll give you that.

[dysfunctional press]

89. back-peddle much..?

"Look, the brick? A bit much. Okay? I'll give you that."

what happened to "as long as someone is willing to do the time"???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NashVegas]

97. Oh Boy. Ya Got Me

I bow to your superior intellect.

[dysfunctional press]

100. no bowing necessary.

your observation and acceptance of it more than suffices.

[WhollyHeretic]

91. That is just idiotic. If something happened to the kid then what the child needs is a father

to help him deal with the trauma and to help him grow up. He doesn't need a father locked away because he beat someone to death with a concrete block. Beating someone with a concrete block is not a positive thing.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

134. Nothing says Daddy loves you like caving someone's skull in with a brick.

[Shell Beau]

211. I can only guess the anger and emotion took over. I can't imagine what I would

do if it were my child. He shouldn't have done what he did. Beating him was wrong, but I don't know the anger he must have felt. It sounds like he went into a rage. I can see many people doing that.

[Sebass1271]

172. as a mother of a severn year old boy, the brick was not enough

[cognoscere]

185. Yeah, if they would have shot and killed him,

there would be none of this attempted murder nonsense and they could go straight for first degree murder.

[tmyers09]

79. Innocent until proven guilty is how I always thought it was.

[Rabrrrrrr]

117. Not on DU when anyone is accused of rape or child abuse - then it's automatica guilty,

and automatic death penalty before even going to trial, because, for fuck's sake man, what's the point of having a trial for guilty people?

Sad, isn't it?

[Sebass1271]

173. that's right. Rape and child molesters are not excused

some liberals might excuse them, not the rest of us.

[cognoscere]

186. Thanks for confirming my suspicion

that a bunch of freepers have invaded this thread.

[Rabrrrrrr]

195. No, you unconstitutional person, you are ready to convict people on hearsay

just because of what they are accused of.

Doing so without benefit of trial, or knowing all the facts, is no different than Gestapo or KGB or freeper law enforcement tactics.

You say that "some liberals might excuse rape or child molestors" - and you are wrong. We are advocating here that WE FIND OUT THE TRUTH FIRST, and then, if guilty, punish the fuckers.

But not everyone who is accused of a crime actually did the crime.

And it might offend your oh-so-fucking-pure self to hear the truth, but - sometimes - people actually LIE about rape, sexual abuse, or their children being in a balloon, or a theft...

yes - seriously - you might have missed it in your lifetime, but people lie sometimes.

That's why we have courts.

Though if you'd rather go to a Rwandan-style form of justice system, feel free.

[Rabrrrrrr]

196. And at least have the integrity to say "ALLEGED rape child molestors are not excused"

that helps everyone know better just what a knee-jerk evil form of justice you desire.

[DireStrike]

204. I can't believe you're completely ignoring the point.

Innocent until proven guilty.

By the way, I heard you're a child molester. I'm gonna submit your personal information to some friends of mine who will be on their way to your house shortly. :sarcasm:

[cognoscere]

184. Yes, he is, until proven guilty. n/t

[EOTE]

73. It seems like you might be moving the goal posts yourself.

You initially said that the only thing that matters is if the beaters are willing to take responsibility for what they did. That means that to you, it doesn't matter if they're guilty or not. Then, rather than defend what you said, you go back to automatically assuming that the person who got the shit beaten out of him is definitely guilty.

But I get what you're saying. It's OK to beat the shit out of someone so long as you believe they did something really, really bad and you're willing to take responsibility for it. Clear as a bell.

[verges]

163. see post #29. nt

[Codeine]

45. And if he didn't?

You have ZERO reason to assume he did beyond the word of two dirtbags with cinderblocks.

[NashVegas]

48. They Should Take Responsibility For Their Actions

That doesn't change, regardless.

[cognoscere]

187. Totally agree. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

68. Funny - just the post before you said it didn't matter if molestation happened or not.

Now, apparently, it does.

I concur that your philosophy of "as long as someone is willing to do the time, then let them do whatever crime they want" is utterly fucked up and sick.

[NashVegas]

72. Hello? I Was Talking About THIS Crime

It's so funny. Y'all accuse me and others of endorsing vigilantism for what could be a made-up crime, yet at the same time, you're making shit up so you'll have something to poutrage over.

[dysfunctional press]

76. YOUR response, when asked "what if the kid is lying?"

"If they're willing to take responsibility for their actions, is really the only thing that matters IMO.

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

78. Yes. They. The Ones Who Beat the Crap Out of a Guy They Believed Molested Their Kid

You have someone else in mind?

[dysfunctional press]

82. so- you have no problem with people beating someone half to death on a child's lie...

as long as they believe said child's lie?

wow.

your mom must get prouder of you every day.

[NashVegas]

85. Great

Just keep coming up with ways to punch straw, k?

[dysfunctional press]

86. you're the one who's been advocating the beating of innocent people, not me.

i just don't find mindless vigilantism acceptable in a supposedly civilized society.

silly me...:shrug:

[Common Sense Party]

177. Since when are we a civilized society?

[Rabrrrrrr]

115. Actually, since you said it doesn't matter if the kid is lying, you are therefore

making your case into a very general one, and condoning violent vigilantism under any circumstances under the rubric "it's okay as long as the ones doing violence are willing to take responsibility".

So, really, that IS a suck fucking attitude to have.

So as long as the KKK folk are willing to take responsibility for any lynching, murdering, tar and feathering or whatnot that they do, then they are morally off the hook for the actual crimes they do?

[Silent3]

112. If you're willing to do the time a molestation charge brings...

...does that make the molestation acceptable too? Penalties for all crimes should just be viewed as valid purchase prices?

Or does a molester have to be willing to be beaten with a concrete block, and go to jail, for it to be "okay"?

You seem to be totally missing the boat, or strangely nonchalantly unconcerned, with the possibility of someone going off half-cocked and possibly beating the shit of the wrong person.

[goclark]

159. When I was about 8 yrs old I was sitting with some of my friends

on the steps in front of Tommie's house in Baltimore.

Along comes this drunk and he came over to my friend Margaret and put his arm around her and said something nasty to her.

We were all afraid and when he stumbled off, one of the boys ran and told Margaret's Dad, Mr. Frank.

The next day we did like Mr. Frank told us to do, sat on the steps -- Mr. Frank was waiting on the side of the house within hearing distance.

Here comes the drunk again and all of a sudden, Mr. Frank rounded that corner, grabbed the Drunk and hit him with his fist so hard, I can still hear it in my head today!

We all cheered and the drunk never appeared anywhere near our street again!

[Sebass1271]

170. are you defending the child molester? your comparison is

unacceptable to what has happened to this poor child.

[cognoscere]

189. It looks like they are defending our

criminal justice system, you know, the one that presumes a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty? Not like some shit hole like Mexico where you are presumed guilty until you can prove you're innocent. You, on the other hand, are assuming that the two thugs are not lying, the three-year-old is not lying, and the victim is lying. But since you weren't there, you have no knowledge whatsoever of what happened to the child. Here's an idea: Why not read or watch "The Oxbow Incident"? Too old? Okay, Mystic River. Maybe a more current example would work. Remember the three-year old who said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? I bet the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's do. Seems to me we're going to be regretting believing and acting on that lie for decades.

[dysfunctional press]

38. or- if a kid accusses you of molestation...

you'd have no problem with someone beating you to within an inch of your life- as long as he did the time for it?

[cognoscere]

188. I salute you for trying to enlighten

people who seem to be clue resistant.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

67. What a bizarre statement.

What if the kid didn't even make the allegation?

So far, all we have is two assholes who nearly killed someone with a cinder block.

For all we know, there could have been a fight over a poker game or some other non-sense.

You are aware people make up stories when they are in big trouble? You know, like right after they caved someone's skull in?

[sixmile]

31. Exactly!

I've followed the story and you could drive a truck through the holes.

[JuniperLea]

50. How does a three-year-old know enough about sex to lie about it?

:shrug:

[NashVegas]

56. No Kidding

Or he'd have complained about anyone who ever gave him a bath or changed a diaper (if he remembered that).

[dysfunctional press]

58. and yet, it's happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

[JuniperLea]

104. That preschool is in the area where I live...

And I followed the case very closely... and that Wiki (like most Wiki) are pretty biased.

The two-year-old in question did not volunteer the information. It was like a push poll... the interviewer made suggestions and the baby followed her lead. And many parents jumped on the band wagon once the accusations were flying around. Kids become scared when they are questioned and will say what they thing the interviewer wants to hear.

Children of that age don't know anything about sexual activity unless they are taught.

[dysfunctional press]

108. "Children of that age don't know anything about sexual activity unless they are taught."

and how do you know what the three-year old in the op was or wasn't taught?

[JuniperLea]

114. I don't! And neither do you!

That's the point.

Congratulations.

[dysfunctional press]

123. and yet- you feel it's acceptable to question people who wonder if the kid might be lying..

"How does a three-year-old know enough about sex to lie about it?"

perhaps the parents discussed it with the child?


sheesh...:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

129. Don't put words in my mouth...

You make horrid assumptions. And you clearly STILL do not get it!

Children of that age naturally know NOTHING about sexual activity. They must be taught. IF a child in this case said something of a sexual nature, they were taught. PERIOD! I don't know by whom, and neither do you.

[NashVegas]

130. It's a Hopeless Cause

when someone knows someone on the internet is WRONG!

Best thing to do is "Zzzzzzz" if you remember old DU.

[JuniperLea]

133. Good advice...

Thanks... I need to relearn this:)

Edited to say... WHOA! I just realized I've been at DU SEVEN YEARS! I'm not sure how to feel about that:)

[NashVegas]

142. Soldiers.

Old ones. War horses.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anigbrowl]

157. your #104 is the answer to your #50

DP doesn't make any horrid assumptions. He just questions whether something could have happened that led to a false conclusion of guilt. You yourself, in discussing the case near your home, provided an example of how this could occur.

[JuniperLea]

160. He's arguing that a child of 2 or three could lie about sexual contact...

That is the argument. I'm saying no. A child of that age knows nothing about sex unless they are taught, or otherwise coerced.

[anigbrowl]

162. You've got it backwards

You think he's accusing the kid of malicious behavior. his point is that kids are not necessarily reliable reporters, which is why medical examiners have jobs. The question is not 'are kids liars?' but 'are kids reliable?'. There's no information in the sotry about how the supposed molestation was discovered so it could have been the kid complaining, it could equally have been one of the adults that put the idea into his head for some reason. It's too early to say.

[JuniperLea]

199. Jesus God you are really dense as all hell...

That's what I've been saying.

[Rabrrrrrr]

200. If you think a child is incapable of lying - whether intentional or accidental - you're dense.

Children lie all the time. It's part of being a child. In fact, there's a part of the psychological development of children that is called by psychologists the lying stage.

Children lie intentionally - to cover their asses, usually, or to make themselves appear to be better than they are to someone else.

Children also lie unintentionally - saying something they think is true, but which is not, because their minds are so early in the development stage that they have an awful time telling truth from fiction, fantasy from reality, and dreams from actual experience.

They can also be led to lie through coercion - Ask a three-year old, "Do you remember when we went to the store yesterday?" and even if you didn't go to a store yesterday, they will likely say that yes, they do remember it - because they probably remember some trip to a store, and they have no concept of time.

I don't know what world you live in in which children are incapable of lying about something they don't know anything about (and I don't know what world you live in in which a child of 3 knows nothing of sexuality), but it isn't this world.

[JuniperLea]

202. If you are going to argue with someone...

You should really pay attention.

[Rabrrrrrr]

209. So then tell me what you really mean, since I responded to what you wrote

not what you meant.

Sorry - I can only go on what has been written.

[zbdent]

62. Not exactly sure ... but here's a true story for you ...

in the early 80s, or late 70s, LOOOOOONNNNNNNG before Monica Lewinsky, I was sitting watching TV with adults in the kitchen. One of the adults had brought their 6 or 7 year old daughter with them, so I had to "entertain" her.

Don't remember how it came up, but she told me of her boyfriend in school. And she informed me that she had (her words) "s*cked his p**-p**".

Not exactly sure which one was informed of that specific act ...

[JuniperLea]

105. I watched a 1st grader after school...

He was a neighbor. I always had him sit at the kitchen table with my own kids and do homework after school. One day he said he had no homework, and he was bugging my kids to go play... so I gave him crayons and paper and asked that he draw pictures until the rest of the kids were finished with their homework. He proceded to draw a picture of himself in bed with a neighbor girl... I knew this because they had speach bubbles... "Oh Chrissy, that feels so good... Oh Vivian, do that some more....

I showed it to his father and was told young Master Chrissy had been sneaking into mom and dad's room... when dad asked Chrissy what he and Vivian were doing in the bed, he said he didn't know, but it felt good!

The father thanked me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

71. How do we even know the kid actually said it?

How do we know it wasn't a drug deal gone bad, and the perps had to think quick about why they beat the hell out of a guy.

"Shit, man, tell the police little Jack said he was molested! The crucify-'em-first-then-find-out-the-truth liberals will be on our side imediately!"

[ecstatic]

75. Yeah. It was a drug deal... I mean look at them

:eyes: :eyes:

:sarcasm:

I wonder if there would be all this doubt about the story if it was a John Edwards looking guy in the mugshot.

[EOTE]

81. Isn't doubt a good thing?

I mean, in America it is supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty", right? If it was a John Edwards looking guy, I'd still think doubt is a good thing. I'm glad we have a legal system where punishment isn't meted out until guilt has supposedly been proven. Yes, unfortunately that means that occasionally guilty people end up evading their punishment, but it's a damn bit better than the alternative.

For me, I'll wait until the police have finished investigating this. If it turns out the guy is guilty, he'll do a long, miserable stretch. I'm very fine with that. However, the father might be denying his son a dad for a while if he ends up going to jail too. And I think that's a shame. No one benefits by the actions that these men took. Vigilantism is NOT a good thing.

I also think it's funny that you criticize the poster for thinking this might have something to do with drugs. Like being accused of molesting a 3 year old is sooo much better than being accused of dealing drugs. :eyes:

[ecstatic]

90. Doubt would be a good thing if it was doled out equally

"I also think it's funny that you criticize the poster for thinking this might have something to do with drugs. Like being accused of molesting a 3 year old is sooo much better than being accused of dealing drugs."

Is drug dealing mentioned ANYWHERE in the story? NO! That poster pulled that out of his ass because the two men accused of beating the pedophile are black and latino.

[EOTE]

94. Perhaps drug dealing was brought up because it often involves violence?

Underground things typically involve a good amount of violence. A large, large amount of our prison population is prisoners doing time for drugs or drug related offenses, but violent and not. It's a guess as good as any. Frankly, I'd rather have someone beat me up because he thought I skimped on his dime bag than for him to think that I diddled his kid.

[dysfunctional press]

99. "That poster pulled that out of his ass because the two men...are black and latino"

wow. an honest to goodness psychic! right here on DU!

i mean, WOW!

tell us, oh noble sage...when will the economy be turning around?

or isn't that your venue?

perhaps you can only see into the hearts of mortal men?

[Rabrrrrrr]

156. HA HA HA! You're totally fucking ignorant!

I brought up drugs as a hypothetical possibility of what really happened.

Could also have been a Tupperware party that went bad. But then you'd probably accuse me of being biased against suburbanites.

Or maybe it was really an argument over the definition of a metope, or the treaty of Utrecht, or the bloody binomial theorem, but then I'm sure you'd accuse me of being some other kind of bigoted piece of shit.

Truth is, we don't know why what happened, happened.

Thanks for just assuming that I'm a racist, though!

How's that self-righteous assholery working for you in the real world?

[Rabrrrrrr]

116. I scarcely even looked at them, but thanks for your bullshit, anyway.

:eyes:

The truth is this: we have it on the word only of two obviously violent people that a 3-year old accused the other guy of molesting him.

We don't know if the adults are lying, the child is lying, whether the child ever even actually said anything, or if the guy did molest the child.

WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING except that two guys beat the hell out of a third guy. We don't know why (though we know what they say is why), and we don't know the circumstances.

And until we know, idiots should stop making accusations and acting as judge and jury for any of them.

Maybe the guy who got beat up is a useless child molesting piece of shit.

Maybe the two guys who did the beating just wanted the other guy's wallet, and needed a plausible excuse for the cops.

Maybe they were all playing jackass ("Hey guys, hit me repeatedly with that concrete block and let's see what happens!") and are too embarrassed to admit it.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

165. The father has an arrest record a mile long.

[dysfunctional press]

101. how does a two-year old?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathon_Edington

Court documents released on September 12, 2006 state that a 2-year-old girl had complained to her mother, Christina Edington, that her neighbor, Barry James, had repeatedly molested her...

On October 19, 2006, the Fairfield police concluded that James did not molest Edington's daughter.

[JuniperLea]

103. You don't get it...

And wiki is a piss poor source.

[dysfunctional press]

107. don't get what?

and would you prefer the new york times?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/13/nyregion/13stab.html?_r=2&oref=slogin
Girl, 2, in Murder Case Told of Repeated Abuse

[JuniperLea]

113. Have you read any of the interview transcripts?

I thought not.

[dysfunctional press]

122. and you have?

perhaps you care to elucidate? :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

127. Google is your friend...

The transcripts are all over the place... and they clearly show the children being nudged on what to say... they used puppets to get the kids to talk... and the kids wanted to please the puppets. You'll read things like "Mr. (whatever the puppet's name was) is tired of all these nos!" And asking kids the same questions over and over and over until it's clear the kids just wanted to get the hell out of there. Making little kids sit still for hours on end answering questions is like torture. You can't rely on the answers.

[dysfunctional press]

138. children? it was ONE CHILD

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/13/nyregion/13stab.html?_r=3&oref=slogin
Girl, 2, in Murder Case Told of Repeated Abuse

BRIDGEPORT, Conn., Sept. 12 — A 2-year-old girl from Fairfield, Conn., whose father is charged with stabbing his neighbor to death last month, had complained to her mother that the neighbor had repeatedly molested her and that she was afraid to go home, according to court records disclosed on Tuesday...

perhaps you could direct me to one of the transcripts to THIS case that are "all over the place"?? :eyes:

[Name removed]

145. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

124. Super question

I believe the kid.

[dysfunctional press]

141. what about this case of a two-year old making the same kind of allegations?

the murder victim was cleared of the abuse charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/13/nyregion/13stab.html?_r=3&oref=slogin
BRIDGEPORT, Conn., Sept. 12 — A 2-year-old girl from Fairfield, Conn., whose father is charged with stabbing his neighbor to death last month, had complained to her mother that the neighbor had repeatedly molested her and that she was afraid to go home, according to court records disclosed on Tuesday.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anigbrowl]

154. Lots of possibilities

Before going on, let me point that I have no idea what has actually happened in this case. I'm using my imagination.

Simple scenario, Dad dislikes neighbor, thinks he is 'too gay' or 'creeply' or something. Asks leading questions of 3 year old, 3 year old just says 'yes' to everything thinking that's what they're supposed to say to their Dad when he uses that tone of voice.

I really don't like to assume either way in cases like this, because for every real incident there are also incidents of idiotic ignorant people who have no idea what they're doing. I recall in the UK where a paediatrician had all of her windows smashed because some local neighbors only understood that 'Paedi-' was something to do with kids and it never occurred to them that she was a doctor.

[verges]

164. The two guys could be lying about the kid's story.

The kid could be coached. etc.

We have laws for a reason.

[Sebass1271]

174. Trust me, the do. My neighbor had a three year girl

very happy family. One day i stopped seeing the husband/dad around and the woman changed behavior from being friendly and smiley to the opposite. I would see her in our building stairs and say hi to her, she would just hide her face and ignore my greetings. Until one day i asked the woman what was wrong, i guess she couldn't take the problems anymore and told me the truth about then, their so called beautiful "family" Her husband, the real father of that beautiful little girl, had raped her own daughter. The three year old told the mother (in her own way, that her daddy touched her down there), she took the little girl to the hospital, and yes, indeed, her genitals had sign of rape.

The husband was sent to jail. That poor woman doesn't trust anyone anymore!!.. The three year old girl Told the Truth.

Kids don't lie in situations like these!!

[DireStrike]

206. You don't have any idea what this situation is here.

There have been many plausible alternatives offered in this thread.

As stated above, the only facts available are:

2 guys badly beat another guy
the 2 guys SAY it was because the child told them something. Maybe the child didn't say anything.


With only that information it is very easy to come up with situations in which the man would be innocent. It certainly hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any of this happened, except the beating.

[DireStrike]

205. He doesn't have to.

He might have said something innocuous that was mistaken by the adults.

As we have seen in this very thread, people go fucking berserk when a child is involved and don't even bother to think.

ONLY THE GUILTY SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

[bertman]

136. Let me jump in at this very late juncture and comment that those other kids/parents who

accused the "alleged" molester in the two cases in which he was acquitted were probably mistaken too.

So, I guess this was sort of "three strikes and you're out".

This guy definitely had a bad habit of hanging out with the wrong kids. Or was the victim of a string of horrible coincidences.

[JuniperLea]

150. Well, that makes this a whole 'nuther Oprah, doesn't it?

Feel free to share some links, text, etc.

[bertman]

168. I have nothing more to add. nt

[Horse with no Name]

139. 3-year olds don't lie about that

Sorry. They just don't. The problem you have with most 3-year olds is that they tend to tell the truth and that is sometimes detrimental to the parents.

[dysfunctional press]

146. but 2-year olds do?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/13/nyregion/13stab.html?_r=3&oref=slogin

Girl, 2, in Murder Case Told of Repeated Abuse


BRIDGEPORT, Conn., Sept. 12 — A 2-year-old girl from Fairfield, Conn., whose father is charged with stabbing his neighbor to death last month, had complained to her mother that the neighbor had repeatedly molested her and that she was afraid to go home, according to court records disclosed on Tuesday...

the murder victim was cleared of the abuse allegations.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

149. To start with--2 year olds and 3 years are apples and oranges

you can't compare the functions of the two. They are not parallel and they are not interchangeable.
Secondly, you have already been given the info on this case from another DU'er.
Wiki is not a good source.
Too many people with agendas can edit it to give the wrong idea.
You were given the link to the transcripts. I'd suggest you read them.

[dysfunctional press]

151. so- a two year old CAN lie about sex but a 3-year old can't?

:crazy:

and here's a link to the ny times version of the story, if you prefer...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/13/nyregion/13stab.html?_r=3&oref=slogin

[Horse with no Name]

152. Not going to compare them

Either way.
Keep your crazy eyes to yourself and perhaps take a child development class to learn WHY they are not interchangeable.

[dysfunctional press]

153. if it was a child development class that gave you that non-logic- NO THANKS

a two year old can lie about sex, but a three year old can't?

riiiiiiight...:eyes:

[Horse with no Name]

181. I'm not comparing or confirming your "evidence"

it's a flawed premise and I am not even going to address it or pretend to acknowledge the validity of it.
You should know why kids that age are easily manipulated. You should know why they just don't "know" this stuff.
Understanding the difference between a 2-year old brain and a 3-year old brain is your first step in enlightenment.
Try it.

[Sebass1271]

176. absoluteley, i agree with you , they don't lie about things like

these...

[DireStrike]

207. Do adults lie about what children say to them?

[Rebubula]

88. Prior case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathon_Edington

Did not work out well for him or his maligned neighbor

Sometimes...kids lie and sometimes they do not understand the gravity of their words.

[NashVegas]

102. I Don't See

Where in that story it was shown that the kid or anyone lied. The police declared the murdered man innocent, based that on finding no porn on his computer, or previous complaints. You can't prove a negative, and he wasn't around to defend himself.

A tragedy all around, though; I didn't advocated killing anyone, nor would I.

[dysfunctional press]

110. "I didn't advocated killing anyone, nor would I."

no...just beating someone NEARLY to death to the point they have to be put into a coma, even if the kid was lying.

nice.

what a super-duper human being you really are.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

111. "and he wasn't around to defend himself"

That's kind of the problem with vigilante justice isn't it?

Even if the guy in the OP survives, how much of a recollection will he have of any events preceding the attack?

[Arkansas Granny]

59. What if the man didn't fondle the child? What if the allegations are proved to be untrue?

Would you still be OK with a slap on the wrist for attempted murder?

[Codeine]

69. Of course he would.

Half the posters here would. The accusation was made, and the guillotines are being sharpened. Guilt no longer applies.

[Arkansas Granny]

83. Some of these attitudes I'm seeing are pretty scary.

If the guy is guilty I would hope to see him punished to the full extent of the law. I have no sympathy for child molesters. It's really frightening, however, to see people who condone a life threatening beating administered because of an allegation of misconduct.

[seabeyond]

119. especially seeing how in subject it states "i dont condone". nt

[seabeyond]

118. i should have put in a declarative. IF the child was fondled, and IF they had past experience

that allow them to believe it were true, IF all the givens are there than yes, i hope consideration is taken.

as i would with most all crimes committed. BUT... i am not into violence as passion, out of control, couldn't help self, vengeance, or any other reason. why i say...

i dont condone, but i understand

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. If they throw his baby raping ass into general population in prison

He'll wish he was ONLY getting the shit beat out of him by those two guys again.

[FiveGoodMen]

128. Remember the Duke Lacrosse players?

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1Y1-111027161.html

[cognoscere]

191. Assumes facts not in evidence. n/t

[tmyers09]

3. Allegedly.

Let's beat somebody with a concrete block and put them in a coma for something alleged.

[Adsos Letter]

4. And that is the point, I think.

These guys will be sorry if the allegation turns out untrue.

I am assuming that previous behaviour/suspicions may have played a part.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

17. Allegedly

Let's *allegedly* beat somebody with a concrete block and put them in a coma for something alleged.

[DireStrike]

208. Good point.

Thank you. I think a lot of the arguments have been hypothetical and based on the assumption that the beating took place as alleged.

But it is true that might not be what happened at all.

[Codeine]

28. Ummmm,

your views are just as reprehensible as the alleged molestation and the savage beating.

One of those cases where people on both sides feel a little queasy when you post.

[seabeyond]

32. who are you? that you are the defender of old farts fuckin with our kids. nt

[uppityperson]

35. Now now now, ONLY those capable of getting pregnant. Be fair. nt

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

131. all of our "gotcha, and thanks for clarification on your position" got deleted. so just saying

again so all the stuff hanging around under your name that cant be edited is ignored.

[SIMPLYB1980]

5. I don't blame them at all.

I just hope the boy pointed out the right person.

[tmyers09]

7. You don't blame somebody for putting someone in a coma?

There's a reason we don't have vigilantism. You don't hit somebody with a cinder block, you let the police sort it out. This guy could have died for something nobody is sure he even did.

[Beaverhausen]

8. the doctors put him in a medically-induced coma. Get the story straight

[SIMPLYB1980]

14. Not at all. I would do the same thing if my

son told me someone did that to him. At that point I'm Judge Dread. I don't see how any jury will convict them if it is true. Also "Court records show he has been arrested twice before on sex-related charges, but never convicted." The dude had a problem.

[ecstatic]

19. No I don't. I have no sympathy for pedophiles nt

[Flaneur]

13. Yeah, vigilantism is so cool.

[SIMPLYB1980]

20. Sometimes it is. When a sick fuck deserves it.

[Codeine]

22. You've assumed guilt

with absolutely ZERO factual evidence.

[SIMPLYB1980]

23. Yep based on the word of a child.

If evidence comes out that this is untrue I will feel bad but my sentiment remains. I don't agree with vigilante justice but sometimes it can be excused.

[Codeine]

25. That's sickening.

There is nothing - nothing whatsoever - that makes a child's word more believable than that of an adult.

[SIMPLYB1980]

27. I would believe my kid before the man he said molested him.

If that is sick then so be it.

[proteus_lives]

182. I love this!

Bats for the win!

[ecstatic]

21. Pedophilia can't be cured

Better to put the guy out of his misery before another child is fondled, raped, or murdered.

[dysfunctional press]

41. and if the guy is innocent?

there's a REASON for due process.

[cark]

80. Due Process

Maybe he can move in next door to you.

[Sebass1271]

178. or next door to me so i can send him to another coma...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

6. What's it called when a jury affirms the crime was comitted but vindicates the defendant?

I recall seeing something once where the jury basically decided, "yes he did it but it was an odd circumstance so he should not be guilty"
If such a decision is possible, then that's what we need here.

At the very least, mitigating circumstances should allow sentencing of a minimum punishment.

[AllentownJake]

10. Jury nullification

and it can be a problem. Remember all those Klansmen that would face trial and get acquitted in the south?

[MajorChode]

52. It can also be a good thing

There are some laws that I would probably nullify if I were on a jury and had the opportunity. The biggest strength of the jury system is that it reflects the needs and desires of the community, but sometimes those desires are very misplaced.

[slackmaster]

11. I believe you are thinking of jury nullification

HTH

[Codeine]

43. Jury nullification sucks. nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

95. Not always.

It lends itself to mob rule... so in a very authoritarian government this might be good, but in a very progressive government this might be bad.
It should serve to pull the laws back into line with the de facto status quo.
Depends alot on the individual case whether it could be considered good or bad.

[Codeine]

9. Wow. And if the kid (or the dad) is full of shit?

What then?

And of course half the population of DU is cheering these assholes on.

[tmyers09]

15. Because when it comes to the children,

all civilized process should be thrown out! :sarcasm:

[Sebass1271]

180. that's right, liberals are not like repubs, we care for our

children before and AFTER they are born..

[EOTE]

42. Pretty sickening, ain't it?

Law and order is the cornerstone of our civilization. Unless, of course, it's someone we really, really hate. Then fuck the law, he/she will get what's coming to them, legal system be damned! And if some innocents happen to get killed or have the shit beaten out of them, then that's just the price they pay for living in the wild, wild west.

[NashVegas]

65. The Cornerstone of Our Civilization Gave Way Years Ago

It's ghost is holding the spot for those who still haven't recognized it, and once they do, all hell is going to break loose.

[Shell Beau]

212. What they did was wrong, but I won't call them assholes because

I don't know what it feels like to be told my three year old child was molested. I can't imagine the anger that would cause. Some are not good at controlling their anger when it comes to their children. Is that right? No, but it is the truth.

If they are lying, then I hope it comes out, and they are punished to the fullest extent, but if this is true, it was a heat of passion thing IMO.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Both the molestation charge and the attempted murder charge are correct

Hopefully, they will be housed in different prisons.

[Lex]

18. Well, I hope the 3 year old was right

in his identifcation and accusation.

[Mariana]

137. AND that the dad wasn't lying about what the kid said. nt.

[TexasObserver]

143. You and me, both.

We don't know how this was said. Could it have been misconstrued?

Could the little boy be confused? Was he led by a questioner?

Without knowing how this came out, the exact situation, we can't know for sure.

Now, maybe this guy is a bad guy and is guilty. If so, we have a legal process. We can't have every aggrieved person taking personal vengeance every time someone feels sufficiently outraged. That's the chronic theme from certain posters here: their anger is sufficient basis to exact their revenge, and as long as they're satisfied they know what happened, legal process be damned.

[Dreamer Tatum]

26. Wow, DMX gets around nt

[YOY]

33. For their sake I hope the allegations are true.

Because otherwise they just beat the fuck out of an innocent dude.

[guitar man]

37. I hope they were sure he did it

I'm not a fan of vigilantism but if I caught someone in the act or was otherwise sure they had molested my 3 year old, I'd probably have a hard time not fucking 'em up either.

Still, the best thing to do is call the police and file charges and let them handle it.

[Codeine]

39. They weren't sure.

They, and it seems much of DU, were satisfied with "The kid said it, I believe it, that settles it." :puke:

[guitar man]

87. I have a 3 year old

And if she came to me, with no prompting and told me that I'd be inclined to believe her, but since I wasn't there and I don't know what all transpired in this case, I'll reserve judgement. If they really believed that man molested that boy I certainly can't blame them for their reaction, I probably would have done the same, and would fully expect to face the consequences for my actions.

[WI_DEM]

46. Yeah, but now that kid won't have a father around either because he could get more prison time

potentially, than the alleged molester. Best that he detained the guy and called the cops.

[Codeine]

47. DU welcomes you to Somalia!

Please join our Won't Somebody Please Think of the Children Militia -- free cinderblocks with every membership!

[Alcibiades]

49. If I were on the jury I would acquit

Assuming these guys get lawyers good enough to prove their victim did the offense.

Maybe some enterprising young wannabe politician/lawyer could take this on pro bono?

[Codeine]

55. Be honest. You'd acquit

regardless of whether the victim was found guilty or not. His actual guilt is secondary to the feeling of power and self-righteousness such a beating generates. For you - and far too many here - the mere accusation with zero evidence is sufficient to warrant near-murder.

[alcibiades_mystery]

125. These people sniff at lynch mobs...yet they would be at the head of the crowd

Idiot groupthinkers and irrational assholes all around. Pre-enlightenment mentality dominates even today.

[Alcibiades]

158. And maybe I hear too much about these kind of cases

I was being honest. Maybe they only said the kid told them about the abuse to cover for a beating delivered for some other reason. That's what a trial is for.

We are all on a quest for mastery in this world. I get my dose from playing cards, but that's pretty much it. We have a large federal prison near where I live, and I know too much about it get any jollies from sending someone there who didn't deserve it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. The prosecution would also have to convince me they intended the molester dead. n/t

[wolfgangmo]

51. The back and forth arguing here comes down to one question.

Do you beleive America should be a country of laws or a country of men?

This is a question that the founders of this nation wrestled with and they decided that it should be a country of laws. Vigilante justice is not justice.

[SIMPLYB1980]

61. But then the question is can it be excused if

certain conditions are met?

[Ignis]

92. Thanks for making this point.

The laws are written as they are to protect us from ourselves and our short-term emotional reactions.

Vengeance is not justice.

[Caliman73]

106. Agreed

The desire to seek revenge for an injury is natural, especially a perceived injury to a child, who is less able to defend themselves. As you say however, vengeance is not justice. I do understand the impulse, as I remember wanting to slap the nurse who made my baby cry when she gave him a shot and left the needle in his arm too long in my opinion. Condoning this beating and saying the guy deserves it,without waiting for the facts of the case to be determined is giving in to our more primitive impulses.

[Robb]

53. Just because I would do EXACTLY the same thing as these guys

...does not make what they did, or what I would probably do, right. :(

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. You're no dingbat. I feel the same way. n/t

[Lex]

64. on the word of a 3 year old?

That's the only part that gives me pause. I hope he was right. Maybe there is other evidence.

[Robb]

74. I'm not proud of it. But if it were *my* 3 year-old, probably.

Again, it's a wholly wrong reaction. But it's not one I could claim to be above.

[Shell Beau]

213. It doesn't, but it is reality. Parents are fiercely protective over their

children. Nothing would make me angrier than someone messing with my baby like that. Doesn't make it right at all, but I know this dad isn't the only one who would've taken such action.

[flvegan]

93. That's the problem with vigilantes these days. They have no patience.

Were it my kid, yeah I'd lose my shit, but I wouldn't do anything to the guy. It's only upon the failures of the system that you take it into your own hands, IMO.

Anyway, once convicted, it will be far cheaper and more entertaining than lawyering up for your own trial, to ensure that certain inmates have loved ones on the outside cared for in exchange for making Petruschke's prison life...well, eventful. I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just making an economic point.

Sure, Vega got some revenge but he's going to pay for it. Petruschke will heal and probably be out of jail before Vega is (if they're both convicted). That's not punishment.

[NashVegas]

96. How Much

Effort do you think the system would put into this?

"Carter and his wife, Dawn Dwyer-Carter, met Luke Petruschke at a homeless shelter earlier this year."

Granted, it doesn't say they were living there.

[flvegan]

98. I would expect the system to prosecute him as any other.

Even his plea bargain would likely send him to prison for some time.

It's when the system fails that you have to think about the next course of action.

[MadHound]

109. As our society continues down the path towards madness

Sorry, but I don't care what the charge is, vigilante justice is not the path to take. Too many people have gotten severely injured or killed, even though they were innocent, because people took the law into their own hands.

If there was a suspicion that this guy was guilty of the crime, let the police take care of it. But sadly it seems far too many people are willing to dispense their own justice, even around here.

[arthritisR_US]

175. I couldn't agree with you more! n/t

[reggie the dog]

120. If I personally saw someone molesting my daughter

and I had a brick I would beat the shit out of them.

[slackmaster]

121. The choices we all make have consequences

:nuke:

[lpbk2713]

126. I'd request a jury trial if I was the dad or his friend.

Everyone would be out of the court room in less than a half hour.

[cognoscere]

194. Exactly, because the prosecutor would only need to ask

one question, and it could only possibly have three answers. "Did you willfully and with premeditation, attack and beat a man so severely he almost died?" If they plead the fifth the witnesses are introduced, as well as the testimony of the beating victim.(after all, if a three-year-old's testimony is valid, why not that of an adult?) End result:guilty.
If they say no, introduce the witnesses again and add perjury to the charges.
If they man up an say yes, well that's called a confession.

[w8liftinglady]

132. I would be curious to see what his 2 other sex-related arrests involved

"arrested but not convicted"

[Mariana]

140. I would, too, because that tells us nothing.

"Sex-related arrest" is a pretty meaningless term in a time when you can be put on the Registered Sex Offender list in some states for peeing in the bushes.

[JuniperLea]

155. Then that person should have learned from peeing in the bushes...

And not whipped it out in public at all going forward.

I can see letting one count go, but three? If he's too stupid to keep it zipped where it should be zipped, he's just too stupid to be allowed out alone.

[anigbrowl]

161. More baseless assumptions

The cases might be related to this one, suggesting a pattern of behavior. Or they might not be even remotely relevant. For all you or I know they guy might have committed assaults in the past, or he might have peed in a bush, or he might have been hanging out in a gay bar that was raided by cops.

Because of the kind of no-brain vigilante wannabes posting in threads like these, saying that someone was arrested for a sex crime in the US is no longer a meaningful guide to anything. Frankly, I think some folks here are over-compensating for something. wouldn't be the first time that kind of behavior has surfaced.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

166. You should se the father's arrest record - it's a mile long.

The only thing that came up for the bash-ee was a drug paraphernalia arrest from 98. But I only looked at Broward County.

Most of Vega's are traffic and/or serious traffic. With a handful of burglary, grand theft, fraud etc.

VEGA MANUEL 12/27/1981 DEF BCCN 0260757 01010779CF10A FELONY DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062001CF010779A88810
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VEGA MANUEL 12/27/1981 DEF BCCN 0260757 04010286CF10A FELONY DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062004CF010286A88810
VEGA MANUEL 12/27/1981 DEF BCCN 0260757 04016640CF10A FELONY DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062004CF016640A88810

VEGA MANUEL 12/27/1981 DEF 03001804TI30A TRAFFIC - INFRACTION OPEN 062003TR001804A88830


VEGA MANUEL V 12/27/1981 DEF BCCN 0260757 01073165TC40A TRAFFIC - CRIMINAL DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062001CT073165A88840
VEGA MANUEL V 12/27/1981 DEF 02049694TI10A TRAFFIC - INFRACTION DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062002TR049694A88810
VEGA MANUEL VIDAL 12/27/1981 DEF BCCN 0260757 03033669TC10A TRAFFIC - CRIMINAL DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062003CT033669A88810
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VEGA MANUEL VIDAL 12/27/1981 DEF BCCN 0260757 03015072MM10A MISDEMEANOR DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062003MM015072A88810
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VEGA MANUEL VIDAL 12/27/1981 DEF 02096547TC30A TRAFFIC - CRIMINAL DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062002CT096547A88830
VEGA MANUEL VIDAL 12/27/1981 DEF 02122623TI40A TRAFFIC - INFRACTION DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062002TR122623A88840
VEGA MANUEL VIDAL 12/27/1981 DEF 03029625TC30A TRAFFIC - CRIMINAL DISPOSITION ENTERED* 062003CT029625A88830

[Mariana]

144. Hey everybody, if you ever commit a violent crime

against someone, well, here's your instant defense. Just claim you think the victim may have molested your kid, ask for a jury trial and you'll likely walk.

[adamuu]

197. Bingo. n/t

[Odin2005]

167. Serves the fucker right!

[Sebass1271]

169. that's bull shit!!. the father shouldn't go to jail. That child

molester deserves to die. He has damaged this kid's life forever!. Justice in this country sometimes sucks.

[IrishBuckeye]

190. Yea , fuck a Judge and Jury what type of justice is that!? /nm

nm

[cognoscere]

192. Assumes facts not in evidence. n/t

[MissMarple]

179. A concrete block....and he's not dead? Ermm.....

:shrug:

[proteus_lives]

183. Fucker had it coming.

Slap on the wrist for those two gentlemen and hand-shake on the way out the door.

[cognoscere]

193. To all you "people" who are advocating violence against the alleged molester:

you might want to check on your local laws covering deadly force. Generally, you only can legally use it if you or someone else is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Pulling someone out of car and nearly killing him with a brick - yeah, good luck with that defense.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

198. I don't think either gentleman is claiming they acted in self defense

They will be found guilty and likely get the absolute minimum punishment.
If I were the DA, I'd file the absolute minimum charges I could justify.

All of this assuming that the one guy is found guilty of molestation.

[AngryAmish]

201. DA might lose the file

Or demand a speedy trial and the DA forgets to show up in court that day.

[MrSlayer]

210. I condone it.

And if I was on a jury I would vote to acquit the father and his friend. Pedos should be killed.

[Tim01]

214. "arrested twice before on sex-related charges, but never convicted."

This guy keeps getting into the same kind of trouble.

[CraftyGal]

215. I understand your statement....

My daughter, now 21, was molested over a period of time by a couple that I trusted. I was pregnant with my second child and ended up in the hospital for two months. I knew the wife through a parent support group that we attended. No one is allowed to attend if there was issues of child abuse. They offered to take care of her while I was in the hospital. They also watched her while I was dealing with a premature baby.

This was September to November. Fast forward to March the next year on my daughters 2nd birthday. The Vancouver Police show up 2 hrs before her party and informed me that the husband was being charged for molestation and the needed to talk to all children and families of children that they had been looking after. I remember being devastated as I had to set up an appointment with the Sexual Assault team at Children's Hospital and dealing with the feelings around this. I found out that it was a very close friend's child who had been molested. We did the justice thing, and after the trial he was found guilty and given 2 years less a day. While in prison he was attacked by several prisoners and was released due to medical concerns, he served 6 months.

I remember my friend and I talking about the various ways we could hurt him including a bomb. During the trial we discovered the wife was involved in the molestation, she was never charged. Considering the Elizabeth Smart case and the Jaa Cee Duggard case, we know that women are active in molestation with their spouses.

So for those who get on their high horse about this try walking in a parents shoes and see how you would react. We didn't act on fantasies but it sure di dfeel good to talk about it. I also know that we danced when we found out what the prisoners did to him. He is so scarred he can never, ever hurt another child.

CraftyGal