Gore Vidal's United States of fury

[Echo In Light]

Gore Vidal's United States of fury
Wednesday, 7 October 2009

At 84, the writer and activist may be confined to a wheelchair, but his rage – at his country, its leaders and citizens – burns as fiercely as ever. Johann Hari watches the sparks fly

+ + + + + +

<snip>

Yet now, he says, it is clear the American experiment has been "a failure". It was all for nothing. Soon the country will be ranked "somewhere between Brazil and Argentina, where it belongs." The Empire will collapse militarily in Afghanistan; the nation will collapse internally when Obama is broken "by the madhouse" and the Chinese call in the country's debts. A ruined United States will then be "the Yellow Man's Burden", and "they'll have us running the coolie cars, or whatever it is they have in the way of transport".

<snip>

"I was like everyone else when Obama was elected – optimistic. Everything we had been saying about racial integration was vindicated," he says, "but he's incompetent. He will be defeated for re-election. It's a pity because he's the first intellectual president we've had in many years, but he can't hack it. He's not up to it. He's overwhelmed. And who wouldn't be? The United States is a madhouse. The country should be put away – and we're being told to go away. Nothing makes any sense." The President "wants to be liked by everybody, and he thought all he had to do was talk reason. But remember – the Republican Party is not a political party. It's a mindset, like Hitler Youth. It's full of hatred. You're not going to get them aboard. Don't even try. The only way to handle them is to terrify them. He's too delicate for that."

<snip>

Is there any hope? "Every sign I see is doom. But then people say" – he adopts a whiny, nasal voice – "'Oh Mr Vidal, you're so negative, can't you say something nice about America? It's a wonderful country, everybody wants to live here.' Oh yes? When was the last time you saw a Norwegian with a green card who wanted to come here because of the health service? I'll pay you if you can find one." But there is, he says with sudden perkiness, some "good news. Afghanistan will be terminal for the American empire, yes. Which is a happy way of looking at it. We'll be out of the empire game, rapidly. But it's too late for the country and the constitution." He raises his drink, and smiles ironically. "To a better republic," he says, and drinks in one long gulp.


I. The death of America

The current spasming death of America was foretold at its birth, Vidal says, and it can only be understood by whirling back there. It has been his mission to explain the past to the "United States of Amnesia," through his novels and essays. When he speaks, he sweeps over two millennia of history – from Caesar to Obama – as if he was there, forever spraying one-liners from the back row. Today, he was stopped time in Philadelphia, at the birth of the republic. "Benjamin Franklin saw all this coming," he says. "I quote him because most Americans don't even know who he was now. You'll have to explain to your readers." Franklin was a writer, scientist and soldier who became one of the founding fathers of the United States. "In Philadelphia in 1781, when the constitution was being put together, he was an observer. He didn't want to have any part of it, and as he was leaving the Constitution Hall in Philadelphia a couple of old ladies said, 'Ah, Mr Franklin, what is going to happen?' He told them: 'Well, you're going to get a Republic, if you can keep it. But every constitution of this sort has failed since the beginning of time due to the corruption of the people.'"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/gore-vidals-united-states-of-fury-1798601.html

[closeupready]

1. What are his views on 13-year-old rape victims?

Does he give a fuck?

[seabeyond]

3. they're hookers, lol lol.

i was gonna get the first post up..... and raped 13 yr olds are hookers, but wtf, i like op so left it alone

but oh noes....

you had to start something.

i really should delete post with good intent
ah
wtf

[closeupready]

5. Oops, sorry. lol

I got it wrong. ;)

[kaehele]

7. Does it really matter?

Not that I am not concerned about 13-year old rape victims, but I don't really think that is the relevant issue here. In light of the excellently chosen quotations from Vidal's appearance recently, I think the issue is whether or not his view of the country is (1) accurate, and (2) helpful in any way.

I am reminded of a post elsewhere in DU where a member cites some strong and ultimately exhileratingly blunt comments about the country from Barbara Ehrenreich. We need BH and the Vidals and others to remind us that happy talk does not a democracy make. Positive thinking and intellectual and critical laziness have lulled us into confusing candor with anti-Americanism (pace GW Bush) or discourtesy. In fact, blunt truths about our increasingly shallow American culture is all that stands between us and doctoral students writing dissertations on the existential in the dating of OctoMom and Jon whats-his-face.

We are silly. We are naive and romantic. We are frightened of change and controversy. We fear our own strengths.

We need to get over it. And Vidal has always helped us do this.

[geek tragedy]

9. Vidal is a paranoid nutjob who has more in common with

the Beck/McVeigh/Alex Jones militia types than he does with progressives.

He's sat on his ass half the world away and thrown spitballs at the United States and its people for the past half century.

He's a one-trick pony--hate, paranoia, defeatism, doom and gloom.

He long ago ceaed being worthwhile or even interesting.

[Mist]

11. "Paranoia"? "Doom and gloom" ? I see him as well-versed in American history, and trying to

tell us what to look for and how to evaluate our country's history and actions.

BTW, Vidal didn't "sit on his ass" in Italy for decades--he continued to stay in his CA home for several months every year, and has never considered himself other than an American.

You call it throwing spitballs--I call it accurate criticism. Americans tend to avoid knowing the dark areas of their country's history, and Vidal throws light on it.

[snagglepuss]

14. +1

[geek tragedy]

18. You think Tim McVeigh was a victim of the FBI?

You seriously think that Obama is going to preside over the destruction of the United States?

You know who talks like that? The Glenn Beck/Alex Jones crowd.

If you choose to associate with the people who think like McVeigh, don't call yourself a progressive.

Btw, Vidal is a sexist, misogynist PIG.

[Mist]

38. How much of Vidal have you actually read? The destruction of the US is well

underway, helped along enormously by the */Cheney regime. Obama may be "presiding" over it only because he's in the hot seat, not because he wants it to happen.

You seem more familiar with the "Glenn Beck/Alex Jones crowd" than I am, so I have no opinion on that.

How on earth would you know with whom I associate? You're assuming I associate with "people who think like McVeigh" for what reason?

Vidal being gay isn't the same thing as being misogynistic. From my observations, I tend to link misogyny with scared straight guys.

And what's with all this blatting hostility?

[snagglepuss]

13. Excellent post. and welcome to DU nt

[depakid]

15. 21st Century Americans are outrage addicts

They NEED to find objects (statements, media reports, bad acts, etc.) to stoke their anger and spout off about. It's almost like a drug to some.

And it keeps them from putting things into perspective.

Oh, Vidal said this or that. Now I HATE him and everything he says is invalid! (as if the guy hasn't been making outrageous statements about one thing or another since long before most were born).

[Echo In Light]

17. The fact is, most people eventually say something offensive, including the family/friends of those

... posting here who are compelled to suddenly hate Gore over the Polanski thing ... yet something tells me they likely make exceptions when it's someone they actually know, if for any reason, most of us have had such an experience, and, depending upon what was said, and why, realize that it's implausible to hold to an iron-clad standard of evaluating the intrinsic worth of others based on an occasional off-color/offensive remark.

[geek tragedy]

22. How about his support and apologia for Tim McVeigh?

His claims that WACO was an FBI-sponsored massacre, and that the FBI, not Tim McVeigh, was responsible for OKC?

He's Alex Jones with a heaping dose of misogyny thrown in.

[Echo In Light]

24. Oh, I absolutely consider that an inside job as well. So I'm not offended.

So now you can call me names, too, if it makes ya feel better ;)

[geek tragedy]

28. Sorry, I didn't realize I was dealing with a Glenn Beck type.

I forgot that the militia types post at DU.

[Echo In Light]

30. Yeah, that's correct; I'm JUST LIKE GLEN BECK!

Feel better yet?

[geek tragedy]

31. Wevs. You Birther/Truther types are

a waste of time. Had I known you were a Birther/Truther type, I would not have engaged.

Have a nice day.

[Echo In Light]

32. Oh, you fibber!

[depakid]

25. That's quite true

Although with Gore Vidal, it's hard to imagine anyone familiar with the man and his body of work who hasn't been offended at one time or another. Probably multiple times.

The word "acerbic" ought to have his picture next to it in the dictionary.

[geek tragedy]

29. The word is not 'acerbic' but 'misogynist.' Or 'rape apologist.'

But, his fans just think being a generally awful human being is part of his charm.

Acerbic means sarcastic. Calling a 13-year old rape victim a hooker and saying she pretty much deserved it? Evil.

[depakid]

33. Crikey! You even managed to get the definition wrong (despite the word root)

n: \ə-ˈsər-bik, acid in temper, mood, or tone <acerbic commentary> <an acerbic reviewer>

[geek tragedy]

35. Tone is not the same as content. One can have an acid tone

without saying something reprehensible and repulsive and deeply bigoted.

it's not his tone that's the problem. It's his values and what he believes. he is a rape apologist and a misogynist. It's not how he said it--it's the beliefs he expressed.

But, it's all good--because what's a little rape apology/support so long as you're a celebrity author?

But, your sunny dismissal of rape apologism is a pretty good insight into your views, I would imagine.

[geek tragedy]

19. If what he has to offer are outrageous, offensive, indecent

and patently untrue things, what good is he?

[Echo In Light]

21. If he's so inferior, antiquated and silly, why are you posting up a storm against him?

[geek tragedy]

23. When I see people praising a terrorist-supporting, rape-victim

smearing low down piece of crap on a progressive message board, I'm going to push back.

It's amazing how many people will excuse rape and rape apologism if it comes from a celebrity like Vidal--not to mention terrorist boosterism.

[Echo In Light]

26. Hey, it's your war of choice. Run with it....

[depakid]

27. Nicely done

It would have been very difficult to have found a better illustration of my point upthread.

[geek tragedy]

36. And it would be hard for me to find a better example

of its okay if my hero does it, celebrity-worshipping obsequiousness if I tried.

So he is a rape apologist? Big deal! So what if he was a supporter of a rightwing mass murdering terrorist? It's part of his charm.

The one common theme amongst Vidal's fanpeople is their lack of any moral sense.

[depakid]

37. No more a hero than Bill Maher

Now there's something that would piss Vidal off. Comparing him in the same sentence to Bill Maher!

:rofl:

[geek tragedy]

2. Crazy as ever.

Was he this crazy before he chartered the Timothy McVeigh Fan Club and started suggesting that OKC was an inside job?

And, his putrid misogyny is also further sign of his mental defects.

[seabeyond]

4. people rave about him. last handful of years i have read his stuff

and listened to him and just have not been impressed. figured i was missing something.

[DJ13]

6. Well, he has one point

"But remember – the Republican Party is not a political party. It's a mindset, like Hitler Youth. It's full of hatred. You're not going to get them aboard. Don't even try. The only way to handle them is to terrify them. He's too delicate for that."


This is why so many liberals get frustrated with Obama.

[geek tragedy]

8. Their base is terrified. It's perpetually terrified.

Fear of socialists, fear of Obama, fear of black people, fear of Mexicans, fear of Muslims, fear of the Chinese, fear of change.

No one has scared terrified the Republican base as much as Obama has.

[Mari333]

10. He is spot on.

knr

[geek tragedy]

20. I take it you're moving then. nt

[Taverner]

34. Agreed. Sad but I agree.

[Echo In Light]

12. Quotes:

"The corporate grip on opinion in the United States is one of the wonders of the Western world. No First World country has ever managed to eliminate so entirely from its media all objectivity - much less dissent."

"Apparently, a democracy is a place where numerous elections are held at great cost without issues and with interchangeable candidates."

"Democracy is supposed to give you the feeling of choice, like Painkiller X and Painkiller Y. But they're both just aspirin."

"America has one political party with two right wings."

"As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too. Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: you liberate a city by destroying it. Words are to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests."

"The genius of our ruling class is that it has kept a majority of the people from ever questioning the inequity of a system where most people drudge along, paying heavy taxes for which they get nothing in return."

"Religions sprang up among men to deal with the sometimes terrifying aspects of existence, to make sense out of the senseless, to explain things we find inexplicable."

"The more money an American accumulates, the less interesting he becomes."

"There is no such thing as a homosexual or a heterosexual person. There are only homo- or heterosexual acts. Most people are a mixture of impulses if not practices."

"Sex is. There is nothing more to be done about it. Sex builds no roads, writes no novels and sex certainly gives no meaning to anything in life but itself."

"Think of the earth as a living organism that is being attacked by billions of bacteria whose numbers double every forty years. Either the host dies, or the virus dies, or both die."

"A talent for drama is not a talent for writing, but is an ability to articulate human relationships."

"A good deed never goes unpunished."

"It is marvelous indeed to watch on television the rings of Saturn close; and to speculate on what we may yet find at galaxy's edge. But in the process, we have lost the human element; not to mention the high hope of those quaint days when flight would create ''one world.'' Instead of one world, we have ''star wars,'' and a future in which dumb dented human toys will drift mindlessly about the cosmos long after our small planet's dead."

"We must declare ourselves, become known; allow the world to discover this subterranean life of ours which connects kings and farm boys, artists and clerks. Let them see that the important thing is not the object of love, but the emotion itself."

[snagglepuss]

16. A superb selection of quotes. This should be a separate thread.

Actually each quote would be worthy of a discussion. I respect him so much. Vidal is incomparable in his ability to view people and events objectively -without rose coloured glasses and without regard to persons. Thanks for posting. Bookmarked :applause:

[Echo In Light]

39. Bump

[mdmc]

40. yes