Why are people calling the owner of the gun shop and telling him he is a murder.

[Kerrytravelers]

He was just on Larry King. He is completely in the clear. He followed all necessary laws. Whether or not you support gun ownership, is calling this guy really helping anything?

*sigh*

[EstimatedProphet]

1. No, it isn't helping a bit.

[rpannier]

2. Because people are always trying to find someone to blame

They can't blame the killer because he's dead, so they go looking elsewhere.

Let's blame the gun shop owner, the police, the University, the family, whomever they can find.

It's like a disease that creeps out of the woodwork everytime something like this happens.

[Kerrytravelers]

You're correct.

People behave so strangely.

[murray hill farm]

10. Yes!

When something horrid like this happens, people are reminded of how powerless they are in life. Something like this slaps us in the face with that fact of life. We all fear death..and most of all untimely and violent death..usually we can defend ourselves with the denial that it will not happen to us...otherwise we could not function in day to day life. When something like this happens, we need to find some way to feel in control again. The easiest way is find someone to blame..or many someones to blame....because then we can feel again that this can be controlled in the future and then we can get back to day to day life and continue the denial that allows to do so.

[havocmom]

24. BINGO

If we assign blame, make a new law to criminalize what is already illegal (murder) somehow, we can resume our delusion that there is such a thing as real security.

Sweep the Bogey Man back into the closet and go merrily along, denying reality.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. I heard him on Amy Goodman today.

He has sold guns to 5 people who have used them to commit murders. Pretty hard to feel sorry for him. There are other ways to make a living.

[karlrschneider]

4. Damn right. He could join the Air Force and kill THOUSANDS.

:grr:

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Sounds like he would be comfortable there

[Kerrytravelers]

5. Without stating my position on gun ownership, he isn't breaking any laws.

Gun checks aren't done by the owners of the gun shops. The information goes on to the FBI. So, if he gets the ok, and he doesn't detect any strange behavior, there is nothing illegal in what he is doing.

I did not hear him on Goodman today.

[aquart]

11. But we aren't talking "legal." We're talking "responsible."

Democrats, dear god, should be able to see that distinction.

[Kerrytravelers]

14. I see the distinction. I simply don't see how this man is a murderer for following the laws set by

the state he lives in.

I'm personally not a fan of guns, but this particular gun shop owner followed all the laws. People calling him makes no sense. If someone has a grievence regarding guns, and want to have their concerns heard and addressed by someone who can do something, I would think one would contact the legislature of that state.

[Tesha]

50. You know, maybe we ought to start calling *ALL* of the murder shops.

You know, maybe we ought to start calling *ALL* of the
murder shops. After all, abortion is still legal, but
that doesn't stop the anti-choice people from using
every means at their command to try to discourage it.

Maybe we need to start doing the exact thing with regard
to handguns.

Tesha

[Ghost in the Machine]

32. how would you determine if someone was "responsible" enough to buy a gun

from you? Are gun dealers supposed to profile their customers now? Wouldn't that blur some lines along the discrimination border? I can see it now, a man passes his FBI background check, but the dealer says "well, I just can't sell you this gun because you just don't look right to me. Maybe it's because your eyes are too beady, but I just don't like you."

What does a murderer look like?

[EstimatedProphet]

33. No, gun dealers don't profile their customers

How can they? Are you saying that gun dealers should have backgrounds in criminal psychology in order to open a business? Of course not - that's what the FBI and ATF are for. that's why there's a background check in the first place. Whether it's stringent enough is a different question, but expecting a store owner to do psych evaluations on customers off the street is asking a bit much.

[Ghost in the Machine]

57. That's the point I was trying to make by asking the poster I was responding to

this question. They seemed to be advocating calling a gun shop and calling the owner a murderer for selling a gun to the VT killer.

Even though the gun was sold legally, the poster implied that the store owner somehow should have been able to tell this guy was unstable, and shouldn't have sold him a gun, even though his background check came back good.

I was just wondering if the poster could tell me what a murderer or potential murderer looked like.

[EstimatedProphet]

75. Good point. I misinterpreted. Sorry.

[Ghost in the Machine]

76. It's cool! It's been a busy week, huh?

:hi:

Ghost

[EstimatedProphet]

77. Oyoyoy you can say that again!

[Dorian Gray]

61. But how is he responsible

for the actions of others? He sold guns, which I guess could be argued as an immoral job. But, is it? I doubt that anybody told him their intentions to murder others as they were purchasing the guns. So where does his responsibility reside?

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I know he didn't break the law

But I just can't imagine knowing I sold guns that were used in 5 different murders! I would have to go into a different line of work.

[Kerrytravelers]

15. Well, yeah. I don't see myself setting up shop selling guns anytime soon.

[rebecca_herman]

31. Wow

I wouldn't ever sell guns to begin with because I am naturally clumsy person and would be very uncomfortable around them... but wow, I just don't think I could continue with a line of work where I supplied the tools used for 5+ murders... I just would feel too guilty to continue.

[RamboLiberal]

22. Out of 160,000 guns he sold - I bet bartenders have sold more

drinks to idiots who drove from the bar and killed themselves or innocent others.

[Ghost in the Machine]

30. Thank you! You saved me a lot of typing....

so I'll just say: "yeah, what RamboLiberal said"...

See this post.. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=692405&mesg_id=693532

[EstimatedProphet]

34. No kidding - and bartenders have a better insight to their customers!

it's a lot easier to tell if a customer is drunk than if they have psychological problems, barring screaming fits and talking to invisible people.

[mainegreen]

35. Yup. n/t

[wicket]

48. And what about the car manufacturers?

How do they live with themselves when so many are killed every year while driving their wares?

:sarcasm:

[piedmont]

25. The number of murders/rapes PREVENTED is probably much higher.

Is my local Ford dealer a murderer?

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Are those Fords sold for the sole purpose of injuring people?

[piedmont]

85. Well, the guns sure weren't

[Mike Daniels]

58. As long as he did the required checks how is it his fault?

I'm sure there are other gun shops in the country that have similar sales results.

Anyway, based on Virginia law there was no reason for him to refuse to sell a gun to Cho.

[Dorian Gray]

60. None of them are his fault

I absolutely hate guns and support making the purchase of them difficult as hell. But, he in no way did anything wrong in selling a legal produce in the proper ways. He's not responsible for putting a magic powder in his guns that forces people to murder other people. Perhaps he should get out of the gun business all together, but it seems as though he's properly following the law when it comes to selling the guns.


I get frustrated when people blame others in situations like this. There's no way he could have known what this insane kid was going to do with the guns that he bought. I do think that this incident shows how important psychological profiling is for those who want to buy guns.

[TX-RAT]

67. Put car lots and liquor stores on your list, those bastards.

Pretty hard to feel sorry for them, there are other ways to make a living:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. What is the primary purpose of cars and liquor?

As soon as you can prove their main purpose is to kill or injure people and/or animals, you win this match :)

[TX-RAT]

82. Who's responsible for more deaths in the US?

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Nice strawman

[Bitwit1234]

6. If anybody is to blame it is the republican population in Virginia

that would not vote to put stricker control on selling guns.

[UTUSN]

7. Well, MY answer is, because the buyer's mental health didn't clear the seller's screening? n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

17. It did. The sale was legal.

And his behavior wasn't noted as strange by the clerk in the store that day. Clearly, this individual was a master at being what he needed to be in a given situation.

[LostinVA]

36. His background check passed

I am 100% anti-hand gun, but the seller appears to have followed the law to a T.

[salin]

37. given that we now know of relatively recent hospitalization

it would seem that the mental health check process (whatever it is) didn't work.

That isn't the sellers problem but it would seem to signal a bigger problem.

[LostinVA]

49. Agreed -- a court-ordered commitment over a year ago

Should have been flagged.

[Thothmes]

51. Court ordered committment

It was not a "court ordered commitment". A magistrate (not a judge) was provided with sufficient evidence to warrent a "temporary detainment order". This is good for just 72 hours.

[TX-RAT]

68. Bingo!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

42. No mental health issues.

The gun dealer has to call the FBI to get the "instant check" clearance. The FBI would not know about any mental health issues. That sort of information would not be given to them by the university or a hospital, not for a mere diagnosis. I don't think there was ever an involuntary commitment to a mental facility, which might have caused a red flag.

Our safety might be enhanced if the FBI were told of every person's visit to a mental health professional. But I don't think that type of disclosure is a very good idea. So to some degree I support keeping the FBI in the dark on some issues. To paraphrase B.Boxer, "Privacy has Consequences".

[salin]

46. Didn't a judge rule that he

needed hospitalization? Given that this presumably suggests involvement of the judicial system - shouldn't that info be passed on? That would seem to be more significant than "every person's visit to a mental health professional."

[Thothmes]

53. Judge

It was not a judge, it was a magistrate. He was presented with sufficient evidence by authorities to order Cho detained for mental evaluation by professionals. Cho was looked at by the shrinks at the closest mental hospital and placed on an out patient basis for continued treatment. Cho was never "committed by a Judge"

[salin]

78. thanks

I had only caught that part of the story in passing, thanks for the clarification.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

16. Oh please. Drop the name calling.

The gun dealer doesn't know this guy from a hole in the wall. The guy passes all the necessary waiting periods and his name is given the clear to buy a gun. Perhaps the responsibility should lie in those that did the background check.

Personally, I'm all for very tight gun control. I don't get why people are so in love with their guns. But it is legal in this country to own guns. Therefore, instead of looking at the seller, I'm more conserned about whoever is doing the background checks. Apparently they missed the fact that this individula had been in a menal institution and was considered a danger to himself and others in the recent past. That gets my red flag before anything else. And, if I were this gun shop owner, I'd also be asking the exact same questions.

[Irreverend IX]

40. The fact that he was committed...

Should have prevented him from buying the gun. The problem isn't in the laws, it's that the mental health system apparently isn't communicating with the FBI NICS system like it should. That should be fixed. Criminal records, on the other hand, are well-screened for in the NICS system. Many people have been rejected simply for having a similar name to a felon.

[Thothmes]

52. Committed

He was not "committed". A magistrate issued a temporary detention order good for 72 hours to allow examination at a State Mental Hospital. The examined him and treated him on an out patient basis.

[katsy]

9. It's a free country doncha know.

He's free to sell his weapons to anyone and people are free to call him a murderer.

[Kerrytravelers]

18. I do know. I didn't say no one should be allowed to call him whatever they want.

I'm just not sure what they hope to accomplish. I don't think calling him the murder is going to get him to close his gun shop. I'd be more concerned about the person that cleared the gunman's name to legally buy a gun.

[katsy]

23. You put your finger on the problem.

Until the 2 sides are willing to sit down and compromise on a common sense solution for the licensing of lethal weapons with a thorough background check and waiting period, they'll just keep throwing stones at one another.

And that is their right. But it's a lose-lose scenario.

[reformed_military]

63. Yes, but...

Katsy,

Other than delaying the carnage, what would a waiting period have done? He waited 30+ days after the purchase of the Glock until he could buy a second Pistol. He had this planned from Mid March at the latest.

What level of background check would you suggest? There is just not the resources in law enforcement to do as detailed background check on every person to have caught this magistrate ruling. Had he been committed, he would have committed a felony by filling out the ATF Form 4473. Since he was not committed, even with the magistrate ruling he was still not ineligible to purchase.

Medical records (especially Mental Health) being sent to the State Police for every person is a nonstarter, and we both know it.

[katsy]

84. Understood. Accepted.

I know you're right.

Thank you, reformed. I'm grasping at straws. It is impossible to look at the faces of the victims, hear their stories and not grasp for the elusive quick fix before it happens again.

[Honeycombe8]

26. Actually, no. It's called slander....

It's called slander to call an innocent person a murderer. It's also illegal to threaten to kill someone, which is what the owner of the gun shop said had happened. He said he'd gotten a couple of calls from people threatening to kill him.

I don't know if that's true. That's what he said. I suspect that's an exaggeration.

[orleans]

13. it might make him consider getting into another line of work

i don't think i agree with people calling him a murderer

i'm not going to do it

HOWEVER--occupational hazard?

i mean, if someone owns a gun shop and makes their living from selling weapons that are used to kill they must be kidding themselves if they think every gun they sell will be used safely, to only kill animals, for target practice or whatever.

what does he expect? that accidents never happen? that a little three year old girl couldn't get her hands on the gun in the house and accidentally kill herself? or that crazy people never act out crazy shit?

the rationale might be that cho would have gotten the guns from someone. well, okay. but i certainly wouldn't want to be a party to it or to have helped him along his path.

(not a whole lot of sympathy from me for anyone owning a gun shop who resents/doesn't like being called names. nature of the business--live with it. or get a new line of work if your social conscience can't take it)

[Kerrytravelers]

19. I'm not an advocate of everyone arming themselves to the hilt, not by any means,

But people's behavior during a tragedy always interests me. The gun seller is merely the first rung in the ladder. I'd be concerned with the background checks and the ability of someone like the gunman to get a gun. It make me wonder about the ease of getting a gun where I live.

My concern is with the ease of acquiring, not the one who is selling by the state laws.

I hate guns. They make me nervous. I've never held a loaded one and have no desire to go shooting. I live in a major city, and I certainly don't want some of my very odd neighbors armed. It just seems like there is misplaced anger. Go past the dealer. Look at who is allowing the sales to happen.

[orleans]

27. i'm listening to the countdown rerun and heard that a court declared

cho an imminent danger to himself & others 15 or 18 months ago.

the gun lobby: yeah, let's make no law that checks for this kind of shit--let's sell any crazy ass a gun!

i shake my head in wonder....

these people are so busy pushing their gun right agenda at the expense of everyone else it drives me crazy.

i know the bottom line lies in the laws (or lack thereof). it's a dirty business (even though it's a legal business) and i certainly wouldn't want my hands in it or making a living conducting what i view as such an unethical business.

so this guy is called a name. shrug. everyone who lobbied for these lack of gun laws should be called names, everyone that passed these half-assed laws should be called names. and then they should all go wash their hands and try to get the blood off.

[beevul]

28. Federal NCIS DOES check for this:

However...theres a large disconnect in the communication between between cooperating agencies that keep and share this type of information.

[Fleshdancer]

56. Wasn't Homeland Security created to fix problems like this?

You're right, there's a huge disconnect in communications between the agencies dealing with safety and security. I thought Homeland Security created to bridge these gaps. Not that I have any faith in them and I think adding one more agency into the mix is counterproductive but that's just my opinion. Something needs to be done though.

[TX-RAT]

72. let's make no law that checks for this kind of shit

There are laws to check for this shit. Had he been listed as committed instead of voluntary out patient it would have been flagged. The Magistrate or Judge may have some explaining to do, but not the gun shop owner.

[PA Democrat]

45. I agree that calling this guy and calling him a murderer is pointless.

But I wonder if this guy is part of the political movement to eliminate existing gun laws and to prevent any further background checks, etc.

Don't you think that it's way past the time for this country to have an HONEST discussion about why we have such high levels of gun violence. There should be NO sacred cows. Put it ALL on the table. I have a feeling that the cause is a toxic combination of many different factors, but as long as there are individual groups/ lobbies that REFUSE to participate in an honest discussion, there will be misplaced anger and people will continue to die.

[TornadoTN]

39. He's not reconsidering - not by a longshot

Looks like the NRA has gotten to him, look at the main page of his website:

www.roanokefirearms.com

[TX-RAT]

69. Do you feel the same about Liquor stores, car lots and bars?

By your standards their responsible for many more lives than guns.

[Solo_in_MD]

20. No, but it allows the raving Brandy Bunchers the feeling that they have made a contriution.

they are a dispicable lot

[Kerrytravelers]

21. I'd identify myself more with the "Brady Bunchers", but I certainly think they are going after

the wrong target here.

ANd I bet that is all you and I will agree on in this topic! ;-)

[Johonny]

29. seems to me

If you decide to go into a business where you sell items (handguns) design for only one purpose (to kill other human beings) you pretty much have to accept getting called out as a peddler of murder when one of your guns is sold to a clearly sick individual that goes out and murders. Hey don't want ppl calling you out, go into another line of business. Seems to me it goes with the business.

[Colobo]

38. Calling this guy a murderer is like calling doctors who perform abortions murderers

Both are completely innacurate.

[Irreverend IX]

41. Five murders before with guns he sold...

And many more instances of legitimate self-defense. Guns are used defensively about 2 million times per year in the US, and I'm sure this guy's products accounted for some of those.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

[Lone_Star_Dem]

43. When his name came out I knew it was only a matter of time

People love to feel superior, and they love to claim false moral high grounds to achieve that feeling.

This is no different than a bunch of zealots harassing a doctor that performs abortions.

[Colobo]

44. Exactly.

[kwassa]

47. How about accessory to murder?

One news show I saw said that 32 guns used in crimes were traced back to his shop.

[slackmaster]

71. 32, out of how many sold?

If he'd only sold 100 guns that would be a big deal.

Would you hold a car dealer if 32 vehicles he'd sold were used in fatal crashes by drunk drivers? The logic would be exactly the same.

[kwassa]

73. No, the logic is not the same.

A car used in it's normal purpose is transportation.

A gun used in it's normal purpose is to shoot something.

No analogy.

[slackmaster]

74. The lawful uses of a car do not include drunk driving

The lawful uses of guns do not include going on a murderous rampage killing innocent people.

The logic IS the same.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

54. Blame the electorate.

There was nothing illegal about what he did. It was entirely legitimate.

The people who should be receiving phone calls are the American electorate, whose love affair with guns makes it inevitable that things like this will happen fairly regularly.

[Marie26]

55. OK, that's wrong.

That said, this is a gun shop that seems to cater to criminals. The website shows the shop shelves - filled w/row after row of handguns. They sell assault rifles, Glocks, sniper rifles, etc. This is not a hunting shop; it caters to a different crowd. It's not a coincidence that so many of this shop's guns were used in crimes. VA is notorious for having lax gun laws & for selling guns used in crimes across the country - the shop's location on I-81 allows them to cater to that "national" gun buyer. The owner is also an NRA fanatic; when Smith & Wesson put trigger locks on their guns, he refused to sell them in protest. Trigger locks prevent children from accidentally shooting a gun. They may have ignored red flags that should have popped up in a background check. They still advertise the murder weapon on their website. I find it hard to shed a tear for the owner, although maybe that's callous & cruel of me. Oh, well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Well if that is all true

I have zero sympathy for him. Had very little before, none now.

[PVnRT]

79. Uh....

You just described the vast majority of gun shops. There is nothing particularly different about this guy than any other gun seller.

The point, which is apparently being missed by many, is that the background check system failed; had it worked, this kid would not have gotten his hands on legal guns.

[bullwinkle428]

59. It sounds like some want the dealers to "size up the customer" to determine

if they were worthy of making a gun purchase, assigning all of the responsibility to them if something were to go wrong. I'm sure that no dealer would EVER allow their own racist attitudes, for example, to refuse to make a sale to an African-American, Middle Easterner, Asian, etc. on the basis of "local profiling"...

[AuntPatsy]

62. Why did people call those young college basketball players and

use filthy language and threaten to kill them? Answer, lotta nutty people out there that thrive on hating others.

[slackmaster]

70. People always try to distill difficult subjects down to a single issue

It's a normal reaction to an unacceptable incident - Lash out at something you can see.

[dolo amber]

81. As if the outcome of the last 2 elections weren't enough proof:

People are idiots. :eyes: