Relaxing concealed weapons laws would be disastrous!

[Quixote1818]

I am all for people owning guns, however I see the gun issue as a statistics issue. The more guns you have available to people who might lose it in a conflict the more potential deaths you have. You might not see many people go and kill 32 people and perhaps something like what happened Monday may or may not have been stopped before 32 people were killed however the number of 1, 2 and 3 people being killed in a domestic conflict would skyrocket! You wouldn't know it had skyrocketed because people use guns to kill 1 or 2 people every day already in almost every large city in America and it hardly makes the news.

If you give everyone a gun and allow them to walk around with them on campus and you get an increase of just 1 more person dead a day, you may stop 32 people from getting killed, but in a years time you just lost 365 extra people to guns. Those are conservative numbers and you might lose thousands more but that extra 1,000 dead would come in under the radar because it would be spread out across the country over years and years. People just don't understand statistics or take the time to understand.

What would you rather have? Thirty two dead once every 50 years, or 365 to several thousand MORE dead a year because a higher number of guns are available when conflicts erupt?

Just as flying on a Jet is perhaps the safest thing you can do, when a Jet crashes and 150 people are killed, people become irrational and will drive 1,000 miles to avoid flying on a Jet even though the probability of being killed in a car is thousands of times higher than dying in an airplane.

When you apply statistics to Guns and violence, the pro gun arguments are laughable! Relaxing concealed weapons laws would lead to perhaps thousands more people dead a year and the impact on what happened in Virginia Monday is iffy at best.

[gatorboy]

1. Honestly, people that think arming college kids with guns is a good idea, never went to college.

Have they not read the statistics on college drinking lately? They seriously want all these drunk kids armed?


Dumbest. Debate. Evah.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. Seems to me that I have just as much of a right not to be forced

to be in the company of gun carrying nuts in public spaces.

I don't get this gun fetish thing at all.

[NiteOwll]

3. That's great. Not only do I have to worry

about about some crazy madman with a gun, when I'm say, shopping at the mall. But then I would have to worry about seventeen of my fellow shoppers pulling out THEIR Glocks, and me and my family getting caught in the crossfire.

Yep, relaxing the concealed weapons laws is a super idea. :sarcasm:

I know very little about guns, but I think if a private citizen insists on owning a gun, they should be limited to the technology that was available at the time of the Bill of Rights. Maybe then, these idiots who intend to kill wouldn't be able to wipe out a room full of people in a matter of seconds. Just my 2 cents...

[beevul]

4. Where have you been for the last 2 decades?

What you say is such a bad idea has already happened.

Where is all this carnage everyone keeps predicting?


Don't think I much like stereotyping college kids as drunk, and not worthy of trust or real responsibility.

"When you apply statistics to Guns and violence, the pro gun arguments are laughable! Relaxing concealed weapons laws would lead to perhaps thousands more people dead a year and the impact on what happened in Virginia Monday is iffy at best."


It's been growing for 20 plus years. If your theory is correct, shouldnt we have seen some kind of incident by now?

[Quixote1818]

5. Look a little closer at the numbers

*

For several years now, the nation's crime rate has fallen – but the drop in crime has not been spread equally throughout the country. As a group, states that chose to fight crime by loosening their concealed weapons laws had a significantly smaller drop in crime than states which looked to other means to attack crime in their communities.
*

Violent crime actually rose in 3 of 11 states (27%) that relaxed CCW laws prior to 1992 over the six years beginning in 1992, compared to a similar rise in violent crime in only 4 of 22 states (18%) which had restrictive CCW laws or did not permit the carrying of concealed weapons.
*

Between 1992 through 1998 (the last six years for which data exists), the violent crime rate in the strict and no-issue states fell 30% while the violent crime rate for states that liberalized carry laws prior to 1992 dropped half as much — by 15%. Nationally, the violent crime rate fell 25%.
*

Additionally, the robbery rate also fell faster in states with strict carry laws. Our analysis found that between 1992 and 1998, the robbery rate in strict and no issue states fell 44% while the robbery rate for the states that liberalized carry laws prior to 1992 dropped 24%. Nationally, the robbery rate fell 37%.


http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=conctruth&menu=gvr

[beevul]

6. That still doesn't answer the question...

shouldnt we have seen some kind of incident by now if all this "wild west" huff and puff has even the slightest semblance of truth to it? At some point, its iether going to come down to "see , we told you" with evidence, or alot of people are going to have to admit they were wrong. Im thinking 20 years is plenty of time to make that determination, personally.


Its been over 20 years for cryin out loud.


And no offense, but I'd like to see a further breakdown by a site or org that isn't agenda driven. I wouldn't take the nra's word for it iether without better breakdown/comparison.

[Quixote1818]

7. It did answer the question.

Loosening CCW restrictions increases gun deaths based on solid statistics. Those stats are straight up, they didn't twist anything.

[beevul]

8. I think you forgot the question.

"When you apply statistics to Guns and violence, the pro gun arguments are laughable! Relaxing concealed weapons laws would lead to perhaps thousands more people dead a year and the impact on what happened in Virginia Monday is iffy at best."


My question was when are we going to see those extra gun deaths. Those wild west shoot outs.


What your saying, or at least what your cite says, says nothing about gun deaths. It says x dropped at a slower rate in a, than it did in B, and laid the cause on concealed carry. It by no means breaks anything down to the point where one can make any determination on thier own, and asks we take thier word for it that it is what they say it is, because they said it was.

Remember, corrolation does not = causation.

[Quixote1818]

9. It's not about wild west shoot outs

it's about slight increases in gun deaths that over time = thousands of extra deaths. The point of my OP was that relaxing CCW laws will increase gun deaths but because the increase is one or two more people dying a day it comes in under the radar. You can try to spin things by using flamboyant language like "Wild West Shoot Outs" but the issue here viable statistics and slight increases that over time lead to thousands of more deaths. Pause and think about that. Multiply what happened Monday hundreds of times but in separate households.

Q: Has any peer-reviewed academic research been done on the effects of weakening CCW laws in Florida?

A: Yes. In March of 1995, a study was released by criminologists at the University of Maryland who examined the effects of the weakening of CCW laws in three states, including Florida. They found that gun homicides increased by an average of 26%, while homicides by other means did not increase. The study concluded that weakening CCW laws did not reduce homicides and could actually increase the frequency of homicide. The researchers noted that by weakening limits on concealed weapons, states may be giving up a simple and effective method of preventing firearms deaths.


http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=ccwfaq

[beevul]

10. Hey...wait just a minute.

I'm not spinning anything. And what you attribute to me, as spin, is all over these forums for you to see. I never claimed that there was or would be anything of the sort. I merely musing that after 20 years, its time for those that DO make those claims to put up, or shut up.


"Q: Has any peer-reviewed academic research been done on the effects of weakening CCW laws in Florida?"

A: Yes. In March of 1995, a study was released by criminologists at the University of Maryland who examined the effects of the weakening of CCW laws in three states, including Florida. They found that gun homicides increased by an average of 26%, while homicides by other means did not increase. The study concluded that weakening CCW laws did not reduce homicides and could actually increase the frequency of homicide. The researchers noted that by weakening limits on concealed weapons, states may be giving up a simple and effective method of preventing firearms deaths.


i'll be honest. I'm fairly pro gun. That doesnt mean I am aganst background checks at purchase or that I'm unreasonable. It means I have a dubious amount of faith or trust in brady OR the NRA. It also means that for a claim like the above, I need an in depth enough explanation that I can verify, for myself, its veracicy. And again...that cite...shows corollation ( It rained yesterday, and the cat broke a window, therefore every time it rains, the cat will not necessarily break a window) versus causation (a mouse bit the cheese on the mousetrap moving the pawl enough and triggered the mouse trap, every time the mouse bites the cheese on the trap moves the pawl enough, he will trigger the trap).

"The point of my OP was that relaxing CCW laws will increase gun deaths but because the increase is one or two more people dying a day it comes in under the radar."

And even your quoted study says could. Not does. You say it will. Explain to me how please. If that 26% average increase can be attributed in the direct sense, there should be all kinda of info about those evil concealed carriers, and the people they're shooting up and you would be telling me about it, and citing it. You aren't.

If its something else, without a real indepth examination, its highly dubious at best. Explain it to me how ccw causes one or 2 more gun deaths a day without doing so directly. Show me causation.