Stop blaming firearms. It's a natural, but isn't where the real problem lies.

[AJ9000]

Edit: correct spelling error.

Even here on DU people don't get it.

Some of the worst crime areas in America like Washington DC, and NYC have the most restrictive gun laws in place. Again, that approach is barking up the wrong tree.

If guns are the real root problem, then someone explain the Swiss to me. The Swiss people have guns (fully automatic at that), and they don't have problems w/ gun violence like we do. And they're not the only ones. Parts of Canada, for example, have plenty of guns too - with little problem.

Here is Americas problem in a nutshell: Violent culture + lack of social support = violent society. And that's where we need to focus.

It's also worth noting that many of the most peaceful societies have relatively small, homogeneous populace's, unlike the U.S.

And a policy of grabbing law-abiding citizens guns is a perfect strategy for the return of a Republican majority in congress. This is part of what happened to Dems in the 90's. We must not make that mistake again.

[Swamp Rat]

1. I wonder how many humans would be alive today if there were no guns?

:shrug:

[piedmont]

3. Can't put the genie back in the bottle.

[BlooInBloo]

2. TOTALLY! There's NO difference in gun deaths between countries with and without guns!

Guns aren't the problem!

:rofl:
:rofl:

Japan's population: 127 million.
Japanese children gun deaths last year: 0


Yah - keep lying straight to my face.

[AJ9000]

7. Japan is close to being a police-state. And check the suicide rate of youngsters

in Japan.

[BlooInBloo]

11. (shrug) Make it England then. I suppose you have an excuse for all 30 countries I can name?

Keep right on lying to my face.

[AJ9000]

12. Why don't the Swiss have a high gun-violence rate?

[BlooInBloo]

15. I don't know - wonderful lie tho -- that 7.5 million people is as good evidence as 127 million.

[Bluebear]

26. "Japan is close to being a police-state."

Hardly.

[Blue-Jay]

4. I stopped reading at "ppl".

If you're too lazy to type "people", then you're probably too lazy to think coherent thoughts.

[Redstone]

6. What you said.

Redstone

[AJ9000]

10. OK I fixed it. Now read. nm

[Redstone]

5. Oh, here we go with the "gun-grabber" accusation again. Christ, that's a phrase

I'm getting really tired of seeing here on DU.

And you know why? Because I bet the phrase "gun-grabber" is in about every second post on the rightwing sites tonight.

Redstone

[beevul]

9. Redstone...

I seriously am not being snippet with you.


What term would you prefer instead of "gun-grabber"?

Abolitionist?

Just askin man.

[Redstone]

14. How about "Someone who sees too many people in America being killed by guns

that are too easy for people to buy, and thinks that such a situation is not good, and believes that there must be a way to at least try to find a way stop that from happening?"

Would THAT work for you?

Redstone

[Swamp Rat]

19. Works for me.

:)

[beevul]

28. Fine by me, but...

Would it be too much to ask for "gun nut" to be similarly worked over?

[Nite Owl]

8. Get your worst crime areas straight

please. NYC is not in any way a worst crime area, it's one of the least and it's the safest large city in the United States. The guns in NY come from lax gun law states like Virginia. You are right that there is more to crimes than gun laws but they are a big part.

http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime3.aspx

[Redstone]

13. OK, I will explain the Swiss to you, if you'll listen, though I doubt you will.

1) Swiss "gun ownership" is a myth.

2) This is because of universal conscription.

3) They don't OWN the fucking rifles; they're required to keep them in their homes as part of their status as reserve soldiers.

4) The ammunition that they keep in their house is sealed, and they get in BIG FUCKING TROUBLE if they report back for training, and the ammunition is unsealed.

And pretty much ditto with the Israeli reserves, in case you were intending to trot out that bullshit as well.

So let's stop spreading this LIE bout "Swiss gun ownership," shall we?

Redstone

[fujiyama]

17. Interesting stuff you bring up regarding the Swiss and Israelis

BTW, have any links on that? I wanted to read more about their universal conscription. Those are the only two countries I can think of with a high number of gun "owners" with lower crime rates than the US.

I think even the ummm...how shall I put this, enthusiastic gun owners have to admit that the background checks are worthless if they can't catch someone like Cho with the prior run ins he's had (stalking? stay in a mental institution?)...

[AJ9000]

20. Here's a reference on that for you:

snip:

"In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.

The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.

Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.

But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.

Mark Eisenecker, a sociologist from the University of Zurich told BBC News Online that guns are "anchored" in Swiss society and that gun control is simply not an issue.

Some pro-gun groups argue that Switzerland proves their contention that there is not necessarily a link between the availability of guns and violent crime in society."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

[AJ9000]

18. I f I accept everything you said at face value then we have a situation

in which the Swiss PEOPLE have easy access to military firearms correct? Why then do they have little problem with massacres like we just had in V Tech or Columbine?

Also, can you tell me what percentage of the Swiss actually OWN firearms?

[Old and In the Way]

21. Because they don't have a gun culture of people who love their guns

more than their country's welfare? There's a difference between having to have a gun as part of your country's military defense obligation and making gun ownership a self-absorbed lifestyle choice. Just a guess...

I'm willing to bet that most gun killings are done by people who own guns than by people that don't. Since you're most likely a gun-owner, you'll have to reflect on that one.

[AJ9000]

22. What do you know about that?

Guns and shooting sports do appear to be a part of Swiss culture, and they have ready access to them. Something deeper is going on here in America than just "too many guns."

[Old and In the Way]

24. When you figure it out, let us know.

In the meantime, I'll continue to support efforts to ban handguns as a 1st step to reduce 30,000 gun related deaths a year in this country.

[AJ9000]

25. I actually told you what I think it is in the OP. nm

[JCMach1]

16. Also, people as crazy as U.S. shouldn't have 1/2 billion guns lying around...

To paraphrase Michael Moore...

[rpannier]

23. You realize no one EVER killed anyone else or had wars before guns.

Sorry: Felt the need to begin with sarcastic response.


As far as I can tell, guns make the carnage worse -- usually.

But, Timothy McVeigh used common, easily accessible items to build a bomb. And the numbers he kiled were pretty horrific.

Where there's a lunatic (or lunatics) out there, there's a will and a way to kill hundreds, if not thousands of people.

edited for clarity

[aquart]

27. Disingenuous, much?

[lvx35]

29. I agree deeply.

Mostly with your focus on the bigger picture.

"Violent culture + lack of social support"

I would say its an isolated culture, we don't deal with each other, we don't have ways to all get together in a supportive way. Violence is the desire to reach out in the last way possible. This is what we need to address. We need a society where everybody has the right to bear guns but nobody feels its necessary, that's the ideal place in my view...