Want to stop spree killings? STOP BULLYING AND OSTRACIZING PEOPLE.

[piedmont]

I wonder why he felt like a victim and an outsider?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OJPBU00&show_article=1

BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - Long before he snapped, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.
Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

[JuniperLea]

1. Remember "Carrie"?

I've been saying this since Monday: "I wonder who dumped the bucket of blood on him."

[TahitiNut]

25. Yep. And parenting had a role in that, too.

:shrug:

It's a sick condemnation of our culture when the 'best' we can say about someone is that they didn't get in our way, didn't bother us, and didn't cause us any problems. After all - THEIR life is about US. I'd sure like to see us have more interest in others for the others' sake.

[Rocknrule]

28. Stephen King himself said she was like a female version of a school shooter

[JuniperLea]

30. Did he? Whoa...

I knew it! Damn.

We sure are a stupid species. Can't learn a damn thing.

[JuniperLea]

29. We cannot expect to truly be safe...

Unless we take some responsibility for our brothers. I know, I know... the "I'm not my brother's keeper" argument has been around for a long time, and I'll probably get flamed here, but dammit. We have to care! It's not just about US!!! We all share this big blue marble and we have to take care of it and of each other.

[TahitiNut]

100. Agreed. And mental health care must NOT be stigmatizing.

IMHO, comprehensive mental health care must be made orders of magnitude more available, particularly in our public education system which should have the focus on How To Use Your Mind - Effectively and Healthily. If EVERYONE gets mental health care, then it's not stigmatizing ... and, imho, EVERYONE needs it. What we have instead is no preventative care, no regular care, and not comprehenisve care - to the point that, for many, the very FIRST contact with mental health care practioners is stigmatizing.

As we've noted countless times on DU, Critical Thinking and Logic are but two areas where we fail abysmally in our schools. It's my belief that both are aspects of mental health.

There is no better place in our society to assure a mentally and emotionally healthier population than in the public school system.

[JuniperLea]

101. I agree 100% with every word

There isn't one human being on Earth who couldn't use a little mental health care. There is no stigma attached to seeing a medical doctor; it should follow with mental health care professionals.

Kindergarten and pre-school are the places to start. That's when kids first find they aren't the only people in the world and develop empathy.

I remember a course I took, mathematical reasoning, which was a combination of critical thinking and logic. I wish I'd taken it very early on in my educational career!

We've failed our children.

Edited to say... the bullies in this picture need the most attention here. If they had any self-esteem at all, they wouldn't need to pick on someone else to make themselves feel bigger and badder.

[Raksha]

109. Yeah, it's been around for a long time. And it's been lame and stupid

and short-sighted for a long time. It didn't even work the first time! But none of that stops people from using it.

[JuniperLea]

126. Sounds like a sad, lonely stance to me... n/t

[thinkbridge]

150. true, but this is not foolproof, either

I agree, there should be more compassion generally. And the political winds of neocons tend to quash compassion as an almost knee-jerk thing. But people tend to assess other people by their own experience, which is limited, and so they can't really fully understand others. When I was in college, it seemed everyone was in some kind of pain, including me. It was almost unbearable. I don't think I was capable then, or even now, of singling out who would lash out at others and who would not. Some students thought he was kind of weird. As a legitimate form of self-protection, people avoid others who seem somehow threatening. And that ostracizes them.

[treestar]

2. I agree, this is the way to approach it, rather than more gun laws

There are already gun laws, they just don't work 100%.

[mdmc]

3. Yes!

:kick:
Nice OP

[quinnox]

4. oh bull

The guy was obviously mentally disturbed, no one else is to blame but himself. Unless you think being made fun of in a class deserves killing 32 people in cold blood.:crazy:

[piedmont]

9. Do you honestly think that people are to be blamed for their own mental illness?

No, the killings weren't justified. They were the actions of a person who had an untreated mental illness that had almost certainly been aggravated by the bullying he got in high school.

[aquart]

69. You need some education about mental illness yourself.

Lots of us have been bullied and picked on. We taught ourselves how to survive, found friends who were not of that type, and grew up.

Bullying sucks and should never be allowed. But it's ridiculous to pin it as the cause of mental illness. More likely, the victim gets picked on BECAUSE the others sense the strangeness...like chickens peck to death any other chicken who shows a drop of blood.

It may be possible that the bullying turns a diseased mind toward violent response. Any studies on that? But this country refuses to do real work on mental illness. We don't know if that boy was schizophrenic, which is chemical and NOT caused by bullying or something else, or what was wrong with him. He needed help. Various people tried to get some for him, but there was none to be had.

He was hospitalized. He was arrested. He was reported. He was diagnosed as violent. Yet the school kept him in the community and the police allowed him to buy a gun.

If I were the parents, I'd sue Virginia's ass.

[mudesi]

72. You need to educate yourself about mental illness

Because your entire post if full of outright falsehoods.

[Bucky]

82. No, you need to educate YOURself about mental illness

Apparently I have a neurotic need to conform to my peer group

[goddess40]

92. Stress induced by bullying can rewire the brain!

Some studies seem to show that it's the part of the brain that controls the ability to show rage.
(I saw a women on the news this morning that talked about this but I didn't catch her name.)

Not everyone is capable of overcoming bullying and there are studies that show that constant stress as in being scared to go to school everyday can change the way the brain works. It's nice that you could avoid the bullying but people with Asperger's and other disorders including intense shyness usually can't do it on their own. By your avoiding your bullies you solved your problem but by not dealing with the real problem the bully just moves on to someone else.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/003815.html
A new study summarized on Schizophrenia Research Forum (a web site for schizophrenia researchers) suggests that neuroscientists may be starting to understand how stress contributes to the development of schizophrenia. Researchers have identified how stress specifically changes the brain, resulting in loss of dendrite cells in the prefrontal cortex of the brain, and causing dendrite cell growth in another part of the brain. These changes were accompanied by distinctly different effects on facets of executive function (the part of the brain responsible for decision making) served by these two areas.

[piedmont]

96. Thank you for posting this. This is sort of like cognitive behavioral therapy in reverse.

Same proposed mechanism-- certain neural pathways can be strengthened and reinforced by continued use. Think positive thoughts and positive thinking comes mores easily because the neurons responible for it are more numerous and interconnected. Our brain re-wires itself to excel at the tasks we ask of it.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. we all impact each other- and the things we do to others either

for good or ill have the potential of changing them in positive and negative ways.

Community is something this nation is failing in.

Too often 'community' (in a positive sense) only comes together after the damage has been done.

Everyone owns a 'piece' of this.

positive or negative.

Will we learn? or 'stay the course'?

(not attempting to 'justify' the action- but trying to look at what part 'we' play in this sad, recurring real life nightmare)

[AZBlue]

12. So it's ok to make fun of people who are different than you???

So sad...

[gollygee]

17. It doesn't excuse it. It might help explain it.

Looking for an explanation doesn't mean looking for an excuse.

[mudesi]

65. He was a CHILD at the time

The psychological effects of bullying can be extremely profound. Crack open a book before making such false statements.

[Trehuggr]

121. there is plenty of blame to go around

but rather then place blame lets try to figure out what caused him to do what he did and use that information to prevent future tragedy's

[AngryOldDem]

123. Perhaps bullying played a small role in Cho's actions...

...but that does NOT mean that the issue is not relevant, and that schools need to begin to take bullying more seriously. It happens in ALL schools and at ALL grade levels. It is serious -- much more serious than the name-calling and pushing and shoving and taking of milk money that passed as "bullying" when I was a kid. You see it all, even at the elementary school level: racial intimidation, sexual intimidation, the "jocks" vs. the "nerds..." My two older kids were on the receiving end of this crap when they were in elementary school, where my daughter (in THIRD grade) had to stand up to some other girls who were shouting down another mixed-race child because, in their opinion, she "did not belong at THEIR school." Later, in fifth grade, a classmate grabbed my daughter's breast, and unless I had not made an issue of it, he would have gone unpunished. My son just started to hate having to go to school.

Bullied kids cope with it as best they can. Some lash out, some keep it inside like pressure cookers waiting to blow, while schools pay lip service to the notion of "zero tolerance," and spout meaningless platitudes about "respecting others" and "embracing the diversity of us all." :sarcasm:

A lot of schools are Columbines and Virginia Techs waiting to happen, especially those that have a huge race and social class discrepancy. And I'm sad to say that, at least in my experience, teachers and school administrators are complicit in this. You'd think we would learn after each school shooting -- and we do, for perhaps a week. Then it's back to business as usual.

But please -- DO NOT discount bullying as one factor in the rise of violence we have seen in schools over the years. In the words of Howard Beale: Some kids are mad as hell and they aren't gonna take it anymore.

[Dorian Gray]

152. Absolutely not

but I do think as a society we need to be taught not to ridicule others. I don't think laws should be made about it, but if this type of fractured personality is worsened (not caused) by bullying, then maybe as caring human beings we owe it to ourseles to actually visit the pain we may cause others with our words. It's something that i've been thinking of lately. After the Imus outburst, we have to know how awful people can be without being thoughtful at all. And then there are those who are purposefully cruel.

I don't blame anybody else for Cho's actions. But a little kindness in life goes a long way.

[ends_dont_justify]

5. Hey, here's a question

To all the people saying no one had the courage to stand up to him? Why did they have the courage to shove him and kick him before? Don't these bullies have the courage to do the right thing? NO ONE has the right to say no one would stand up to him now, people did it all the time and RUINED him.

I did not know these facts...I can be less condemning of him now, I believe, again, the american society and lax laws on bullying did it now...and the people who bullied him, if not dead, should be arrested for manslaughter.

[Kajsa]

22. Bullies are cowards.

They are not brave.

[goddess40]

93. not always - do you think the big jock that bullies is afraid

He's got the school at his disposal. The staff looks the other way for him, girls swoon for him and the guys give way.

[Blue_Roses]

104. that big jock has a serious ego problem

if he has to pick on weaker, smaller ones than himself. I've seen and experienced the "ego" of a few in my lifetime--unfortunately:eyes: They all had "issues" and being a bully made them feel powerful.

[BuelahWitch]

115. A friend and I were discussing this

He told of a situation when he was in high school and a poor kid was being harassed by the jocks. He stuck up for the poor kid, and in the process let out a few cuss words. My friend got yelled at for cussing at the jock, but the teacher said nothing to the jock for bullying the poor kid.

Go figure :shrug:

[Kajsa]

130. The big jocks I've met in the classrooms

and on campus are nice.
They stick up for the little guys who get pushed around.

The guys who are very insecure are the ones who
pick on those who are smaller/weaker than they are.

Actually, if there was a big jock bully,( I've yet to meet one) do you think
he would pick on someone bigger and more powerful than him?

Would he pick on someone equal in size and strength,
someone with equal backup?

I don't think so.

He'd pick on someone who was alone,
someone who was smaller/weaker.

That's a coward.

[IronLionZion]

154. Until a bigger jock beats him down

Why on earth would he need to bully? If he was so tough he wouldn't have to prove it.

[Little Star]

27. Ostracizing is just as harmful as bullying.

This shit starts in grade school. The damage done to these kids by other kids is tolerated in our schools and by our laws. It puts them in a slow cooker and some never get out of that pot.

[Cetacea]

35. Great point.

And it begs the question of where do children learn this cruel form of behavior?

[Little Star]

46. Now there, is another good question.

[MN ChimpH8R]

169. If you are on the autism spectrum

the neurotypical world is hard wired to treat you like shit.

The best analogy I've seen was in an article I read shortly after getting my Asperger diagnosis. Neurologically typical can be compaared to dogs. They are pack animals and they enforce the norms of the pack. No wolf can put his interests above those of the pack or the pack would cease to exist. The pack turns on a wolf whose behavior is not appropriate in the context of the pack. Domestic dogs can be trained not to do something they very much want to do just because the alpha dog )i.e., its master) tells it not to.

Those of us on the autism spectrum, however, are cats. A cat is a solitary creature, (except for lions) and could care less about the needs or wants of other cats, even it it could understand this profoundly alien concept. We on the spectrum are also solitary creatures that don't really give a rat's ass about what anyone else thinks unless we have a particular reason to do so. A cat cannot be trained to do something it wishes to do aand will always pursue its own wishes. We are internally motivated by what we want to do. We desire to pursue our own interests and obsessions and are often perfectly happy being left alone. Socializing is stressful because we don't get the +60% of communication that is non-verbal.

It is OK to be a dog or a cat, but when you are living in a world where dogs make all the rules and enforce them with terrifying efficiency, it is a scary and difficult place to be a "cat". I cannot be a "dog" and even if I somehow learned to fake being a "dog" I would be a conditioned cat, never a real "dog".

We don't understand in the slightest the meta-languate on non-verbal communication and process everything through language and logic. Think Data from STNG (yes, I am the stereotypical nerd Trek fan). He's "fully functional" but his thoughts are not neurotypical thoughts. He is, when carefully considered, a near-perfect example of a highly intelligent Asperger.

So let's back off a little bit about how innately wonderful all kids are. My experience as an Aspie kid taught me that no one can be meaner and more judgmental than kids. Most kids will pounce on the one who is different quickly snd often savagely. I speak from extensive experience.

[coalition_unwilling]

51. Our general culture participates in the ostracism by its general

tone of anti-intellectualism and disparaging of critical thinking.

[Little Star]

57. You mean our general culture is all about

bottom line conversations and such? I loath bottom line only conversations, you never know the whole story!

[goddess40]

161. it is a form of bullying

and your right it starts the first day of kindergarten. Early in the year I heard one little girl announce to their little group that a certain girl was not allowed to play or talk to them because he didn't dress the way she was supposed to - evidently the little shit had decreed the day before what the outfit was supposed to be for that day. As a lowly volunteer I didn't say anything but reported it - the principal, as usual, did nothing.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

31. Wow, where to begin...

Who are the people spouting off about courage or lack thereof? Primarily wingnuts, so consider your source. I'm actually bracing myself for Tapeworm Coulter to weigh in.

There is nothing "courageous" about shoving or kicking a fellow student. Bullying a "weaker" student is hardly standing up. Taunting him with "go back to China" is absolutely outrageous. And it's not that difficult to grasp that perhaps the VT students didn't "shove him and kick him" because he was armed to the phucking teeth. Can you outrun ammo?

Cho's existing mental health issues coupled with bullying coupled with his ability to so readily obtain firearms was a deadly combination. I'll even throw in "American society" - the poses he struck and the video he provided for public consumption were very telling.

Manslaughter, really?

[Coventina]

6. Indeed. I've always said the only thing that surprises me about

school shootings is that there isn't more of them.

Having said that, this guy was too old to use the "adolescent angst" excuse. In this particular case, it seems that there was a definite mental health issue. Maybe his problems stemmed from being bullied as a teenager. If he was still messed-up over that, then he needed help that he never got. Thank you Ronald Reagan, for helping dismantle our mental health facilities in this country.

[Diane R]

7. My sons went to a school similar to Columbine....wonderful kids were constantly bullied.

And too often, the faculty condones it. They love winners, and they love the status quo in wealthy communities. I've seen it take years for really great kids to overcome the trauma of high school. This bullying has to stop.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

16. At Columbine . . . .

. . . the shooters hadn't been bullied. They'd been the ones doing the bullying. Their shooting spree was a culmination of their own deranged, bullying behavior.

[Little Wing]

19. where did you get that information?

[acmavm]

23. You don't let facts get in your way very much, do you?

[Selatius]

62. Funny, news reports from Columbine suggested the exact opposite.

Do a google search for the "bullying" + "Columbine", and you'll get your results.

But I guess if you want to make such an assertion, don't let the facts get in the way.

[Madspirit]

163. Simply not true

You just made that up.
Lee

[Rocknrule]

33. I did too

I went to school 12 miles from Columbine and it was very similar - very WASPy, very clique-y, very exclusive and intolerant of different people. The odd thing is, this was only until high school, then people became much more tolerant, diverse, and accepting.

[hippiechick]

8. Our society is just sick, on so many levels.

... nothing to see here, go back to your shopping and consuming and plastic surgery-ing and shallow gossiping ... he was just a loner-wierdo. It's his problem, not ours. So go back to making fun of those who aren't you to make yourself feel better for not being a supermodel or Donald Trump ... go back to picking on those weaker than you or who don't "fit the mold" simply because you can. Might makes right. If they don't look or act like you, beat the shit out of them. It'll make you feel better.

Having been on the receiving end of the "you don't fit in" torment brigade since elementary school, I can tell you it totally and completely sucks.

[laruemtt]

15. me too, hippiechick.

instead of grabbing a gun and shooting people, i turned it inside and have grappled with severe depression for most of my adult life. i could never in a million years pick up a gun and shoot someone, but the damage done to my sense of self in a sense has been as great as if someone had pulled a gun on me. i've worked through a lot and at 54 feel pretty grounded. but i think of what all that energy spent to mend things internally could have been used for as far as maybe being further along professionally, etc.... my deepest empathy to all victims of bullying.

[jelly]

122. Exactly. We're survivors and although that is a badge of honor,

I would gladly trade that badge for a happier childhood and less depression as an adult.

[cwydro]

56. I lived it too

in elementary school. It made me stronger, I believe, but I cringe when I see kids bullied because they look or talk differently than their peers.

It is a very lonely feeling.

[Wednesdays]

102. And little is being done about it, it seems...

I can't say it is happening in this case, but all too often we blame the victims.

[BuelahWitch]

116. No, it's just getting worse

Our society thinks it's in a perpetual sitcom. Smartass remarks, put downs and general bad behavior to others are the norm. The problem is it doesn't seem to end at high school anymore...

[maggiegault]

164. I'm bipolar and was severely bullied, especially in junior high

Never showed up at school with a gun, and being that my father was a hunter, I could have gotten more than one, if I put my mind to it.

I will never, ever condone what any school shooter does, but I would be lying if I said that I didn't understand 100% why they do it.

[jelly]

117. Me three.

I had a double stigma: being poor and being eccentric. Getting picked on did *not* make me stronger. Oh sure, it forced me to become tougher, more cynical, less sensitive, less caring of what others think, but I wouldn't consider that a benefit. Rather, I was robbed of some of my innocence before it was my time.

As it happens lately my 12-yr-old son (who is very smart but, as is often the case with kids that smart, a bit socially awkward) has complained of being picked on. It could just be a passing aberration, but I am prepared to complain to the school if the bullying continues. However, I worry that he will get a reputation as someone who needs his mom to stick up for him. What if kids ostracize him worse after I complain?

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

11. Bullshit . . . .

He felt like a "victim" and an "outsider" because he was mentally deranged. Read the whole article. It sounds to me that, from very early on, the kid had some serious mental issues, was resolutely noncommunicative, and more or less chose (admittedly, within the parameters of his ever-developing mental illness), to cut himself off from human contact.

Moreover, everything I've read and seen about his experience at Virginia Tech is that he rebuffed even the most mild attempts by fellow classmates and professors to engage with him. Recognizing, again, that his mental state was questionable from the get-go, Cho's basic problem, it seems to me, was that he was a rude, noncommunicative, self-absorbed creep who, if, anything, was treated with kid-gloves by his ever-tolerant classmates at VT.

[Cetacea]

36. The truth is coming out. People do not become mean by accident.

(btw, love the Moodies ref.)

[Cetacea]

106. Especially children. eom.

[Marie26]

40. Basically agree. nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

54. You make some valid points...

but "ever-tolerant" is a cheap potshot against his classmates. From what I've read, a number of VT students reported problems with Cho. Perhaps he was treated with "kid-gloves" to avoid confrontation. Most of us do operate in such a way as to avoid confrontation, don't we--right or wrong. I work with a noncommunicative and rather creepy grad student. While I've made attempts to engage him, I've decided to keep my distance. Yes, he's rude, but do I expect him to gun down 32 people? No. Is that ever-tolerant of me?

[realisticphish]

67. huh?

he's saying they were ever-tolerant. As in, they tolerated him for a long time. I don't see the insult :shrug:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

79. Based on the sentiment expressed in other posts...

my "negative connotation radar" went off.

[realisticphish]

81. ok

i have no history with the poster, so i'm limited in my analysis

[WorseBeforeBetter]

89. I could be wrong, but between...

reading "passive children" columns by NRO assholes and being updated by a friend whose VT engineering son was on campus at the time, it's probably a good idea for me to pull the plug on this thread.

[EFerrari]

125. No. Cho had severe mental illness that a number of people

didn't address when they had the opportunity. He's responsible for what he did; so are they.

Were you born with that DNA, I doubt you'd be calling yourself a "creep".

Geezus.

[file83]

153. You don't have clue 1 about mental illness.

Mental illness in a civilized society is a social responsiblity, not a private one.

You see, when a person is mentally ill they have a problem with their brain. If their brain is not functioning properly how do you expect them to fix it?

That's where other human beings are supposed to come in. Cho had already been detected by the system as mentally ill, twice. First when he was 8 he was diagnosed as autistic.

He was never treated.

The second time he was diagnosed was when he was in college. Currently they haven't released what his second diagnosis was, but many mental health professionals are placing their bets on some form of schizphrenia, possibly paranoid schizophrenia.

He was released without proper treatment.

The VT shootings occured sometime later.

People that don't understand mental illness want to blame him.

People that know mental illness, blame the social system that let him slip through.

But you see, Cho is not an isolated case. Thousands of people slip through the system every year. Most of them, though, don't end up in high profile massacre. They end up on the street, begging for money, or in jail for committing a "lesser" crime.

Mental illness is all around us, it's just that most of us don't see it until the worst result occurs.

[maggiegault]

165. File Under: Yates, Andrea

[MN ChimpH8R]

168. Diagnosed as autistic? Fascinating, and

I am not surprised one bit. As soon as I heard fairly extensive discussion of his behavior, I immediately guessed that he was almost certainly on the spectrum, either high functioning autistic or severe Asperger. It was an easy call for me as I am a DX'd Asperger. The silence was the dead giveaway. Even avoidants are not as extreme as Cho was.

I said it in another post, but it should be common sense. Add a spectrum disorder to a predisposition to paranoid schizophrenia and depression, mix in a lifetime of social abuse and rejection (because of the spectrum disorder; neurotypicals are preprogrammed to punish and ostracize those who are neurologically different because of our non-existent social skills) resulting in extreme social isolation, add no mental health treatment and a terribly dangerous situation is bound to result. This is vastly more true where the individual is one whose depression manifests itself outwardly rather than inwardly.

Put all of those things together and what happened at VT isn't remotely surprising, it is inevitable.

[AZBlue]

13. Why do we need to be cruel and mean to others? Why does that make us feel bigger?

What a sad statement on our society. Something needs to change NOW or we will face more Virginia Techs with increasing rate and horror.

K&R

[WorseBeforeBetter]

42. This is what I don't understand...

where has all of this ugliness and hatred come from? I was thinking back to high school and my friends and I affectionately referring to our little group as "the United Nations" (black, white, Chinese, Indian, Mexican). We were near DC and bused into a fairly rough area and while there were issues, we basically all got along (how very Rodney King of me). Granted, this was the 70s--perhaps I was Dazed and Confused. I'm really in shock at what I'm seeing nowadays (pardon the Archie Bunker moment). Is this what decades of hate-filled media has wrought?

[BuelahWitch]

118. Picking on the quiet or different person is an easy attention-getter

They get a laugh from their peers at another's expense. If they were on the other side it wouldn't be so damn funny.

[ropi]

14. i have to agree with the carrie comment above

i was wondering when this was going to come out. you could tell by the way he acted and the descriptions given by his peers that there was obviously some bullying done earlier-possibly middle school or high school. by the time he reached university level the damage was so severe that he could not connect to anyone or with anyone.

his references to columbine and to his 'children' recall the former bullying situation where the two boys struck out at their classmates (like he did--to which i fully believe that the poor innocent victims at VT were just echos or reminders of memories of the former bullies--by this time cho was so far removed and so far into his own hurt and delusional world that 'those voices' were everywhere no matter what or who it was) and the latter message to his 'children' is a call to others who suffer as he had to follow his way.

it's sad. it's all too sad and tragic. it is the bullying that has to stop.

[meldroc]

18. Bullying is a HUGE problem.

I certainly got more than my share when I was in junior high and high school. I still carry scars, and I admit it - I have had fantasies of blood-soaked revenge upon my tormentors.

I'm afraid there's going to be more persecution of the bully victims, or anyone who's differnt - minorities, gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transgendered, geeks, goths, role-playing gamers, video gamers, goths, geeks, etc. They're going to be accused of wanting to pull a Carrie, or do a repeat performance of Virginia Tech or Columbine, and their lives are going to be made hell.

Here are some stories for you from Slashdot, in the aftermath of Columbine.

Voices From The Hellmouth
More Stories From The Hellmouth

[Cetacea]

39. Absolutely! eom.

[WinkyDink]

20. And yet, serial killers (not "mass") can be very sociable! Cf.: Bundy; Gacy.

[slackmaster]

21. Thank you for pointing one small thing a lot of us can do to help

That alone won't prevent people from going off their rocker, but in some cases it could help.

:toast:

[Little Star]

24. K&R When will people see just

how harmful these actions really are. Someone said anyone with a mind can get mental illness and I agree. Peers are the most influential thing in the life of a child. Then some of these children grow to be mentally disturbed and angry young people or adults. Our grade schools do not put enough emphasis on inclusion of all. Bulling should be a automatic suspension.

[The Stranger]

26. I shouted out, "Who killed the kennedys?" When after all it was you and me . . .

[geardaddy]

41. Sympathy for the Devil?

[The Stranger]

48. (Jagger/Richard 1968)

[Marie26]

32. Not sure that's a good example

Yeah, bullying is definitely a problem, and plays a role in a lot of school violence, but it really doesn't seem like the cause of this person's spree. What was the cause & what was the effect here? Did bullying cause the "strangeness" here, or did his strangeness cause the class's reaction? It seems like the class mostly reacted to this person's bizzare behavior - and that IS bizzare. It's the same kind of behavior people reported from college. He sounds very disturbed, even in middle school. No one has mentioned that he was bullied at VTech - mostly classmates left him alone; in fact some classmates & teachers were actually afraid of him. One teacher mentioned his "meanness" as the thing she really noticed. I dunno. It just doesn't seem like this shooting was was a reaction to bullies, and more like it was a reaction to some internal, disturbed motivation.

[piedmont]

73. I think the "meanness" developed at least partly because of the bullying in high school

If he was bullied as aggressively as some of his classmates say he was, that would be one predictable result.

[Marie26]

87. Maybe

Or maybe he was just mean. Look, probably everyone has been bullied at one time or another. That doesn't make everyone mean or cruel. Professor Giovanni is one of the best poets in the country, and is very sensitive & perceptive. She taught this person, and I tend to trust her perception of him. She said that she has worked w/mentally ill students before, and students who write violent works, but that it was this person's "meanness" that really disturbed her. If anything, it seems like he was the one who was acting like a bully.

"He often could be found glowering or scowling at other students, "trying to exude an intimidating presence," Fowler said.

One student told Giovanni that Cho was in the habit of bringing a camera to class and photographing others without their permission, Fowler said. His writings often contained "disturbing images," including references to chainsaws.

"He can't bully me, but he's trying to bully the other students, and I won't tolerate that," Giovanni told Fowler at the time.

"There was something mean about this boy," the poet told CNN yesterday. "It was the meanness - I've taught troubled youngsters and crazy people - it was the meanness that bothered me. It was a really mean streak."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/bal-to.giovanni19apr19,0,4439296.story?coll=bal-features-headlines

[piedmont]

90. Everyone has had alcohol at some point-- but not everyone's an alcoholic.

I think the reason that not all people who were bullied turn "mean" and aggressive is that only some people are pre-disposed to react that way. He had an underlying condition, and I think the bullying aggravated it. I would bet his outcome would have been different if he had gotten effective treatment at an early age and wasn't subjected to such vicious cruelty.

[Marie26]

94. I totally disagree.

Effective treatment might have changed the outcome here, but I really doubt this one incident is what motivated the crime. Bullying is a problem, and there are crimes motivated by bullying; IMO this isn't one of them. But I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[piedmont]

98. Nobody said this one incident motivated the crime. This was indicative of a pattern.

The kid wasn't just bullied once. He was most likely subjected to it every day during a critical period in brain development.

[Marie26]

99. Then why was he disturbed at 7?

According to his relatives, he was "off" his entire life. Even in South Korea. There is NO indication that bullying caused his behavior.

[piedmont]

103. He wasn't a mean, homicidal intimidator at 7. The brain is always re-wiring itself.

From the accounts I've seen he was non-communicative, perhaps shy at a young age. Like I said, he had an underlying predisposition that could only have been exacerbated by the stress and humiliation caused by bullying.

[Marie26]

107. This is one incident

And a mild incident, at that. And don't forget why he was taunted - because he was so bizarre & inappropriate. Everyone has their own pet issue that they're trying to tie this senseless shooting to. The connection to bullying is tenuous at best.

[piedmont]

134. "There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down & laugh at him

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said Wednesday. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

Read the damn article.

[Marie26]

135. Were you bullied at school?

I'm just curious. Bullying is bad, yes. But this person's actions were a result of mental illness, or maybe just because he was a psychopath. Bullying doesn't turn people into mass murderers.

[piedmont]

137. Were you a bully?

What I'm saying is that his underlying mental illness may not (and in my opinion, probably would not) have caused him to do this if he hadn't been bullied. As someone in another thread pointed out, to make a cake you need both ingredients AND the stirring and baking of them. I'm saying he would have been mentally ill, but not as violent. The American Psychological Association states that the effects of bullying are negative and long-lasting:

PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF BULLYING

Bullying exerts long-term and short-term psychological effects on both bullies and their victims. Bullying behavior has been linked to other forms of antisocial behavior, such as vandalism, shoplifting, skipping and dropping out of school, fighting, and the use of drugs and alcohol.

Victims of bullying experience loneliness and often suffer humiliation, insecurity, loss of self-esteem, and thoughts of suicide. Furthermore, bullying can interfere with a student's engagement and learning in school. The impact of frequent bullying often accompanies these victims into adulthood.

[Marie26]

138. No way

I noticed you didn't answer my question - why is that? Do you think it's possible you might be projecting some of your own experiences here? Bullying has bad effects, no doubt. It needs to be stopped in our schools, and should not tolerated by administrators. Bullying doesn't turn someone into a mass murderer. This particular crime was not caused by bullying, but by a person w/a history since childhood of severe mental disturbance and antisocial behavior. OK? That's my position & I'm sticking to it.

[piedmont]

140. Oh brother

Projection? I figured that's what your question was and that's why I didn't answer it. The debate isn't about me or my experiences. Nice try at an ad hominem, though.
Bullying has been found to cause anxiety, depression, and insecurity. Its wounds are both physical and mental. If Cho was bullied, it couldn't have done anything but make his condition worse.

New Scientist
Effects of bullying worse for teens

The age at which kids first fall victim to bullying could influence how strongly they are affected, suggests a new study. And, surprisingly, it is not the youngest kids who are hurt the most in the long term.

Bullying can have long-lasting effects, but particularly when it begins in adolescence, the researchers say.

People subjected to either verbal or physical bullying are known to be at greater risk for developing depression, anxiety disorders or to behave violently. But not everyone reacts in this way.

Children bullied for the first time before they hit puberty seem to get over it, but those who are victimised for the first time late on in puberty seem to become more aggressive or are more likely to turn to drink as a means of coping. These are the conclusions of psychologist Matthew Newman and colleagues from the University of Texas at Austin, US.

continued at: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6600

Here's another:

Study: Gifted children especially vulnerable to effects of bullying
WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. —Bullying in the gifted-student population is an overlooked problem that leaves many of these students emotionally shattered, making them more prone to extreme anxiety, dangerous depression and sometimes violence, says a Purdue University researcher.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6600

and another:
How does bullying affect teens who are the targets of bullies?
Bullying can lead teenagers to feel tense, anxious, and afraid. It can affect their concentration in school, and can lead them to avoid school in some cases. If bullying continues for some time, it can begin to affect teens' self-esteem and feelings of self-worth. It also can increase their social isolation, leading them to become withdrawn and depressed, anxious and insecure. In extreme cases, bullying can be devastating for teens, with long-term consequences. Some teens feel compelled to take drastic measures, such as carrying weapons for protection or seeking violent revenge. Others, in desperation, even consider suicide.5,6,7 Researchers have found that years later, long after the bullying has stopped, adults who were bullied as teens have higher levels of depression and poorer self-esteem than other adults.8
http://www.safeyouth.org/scripts/teens/bullying.asp

[Marie26]

141. Thanks for the links

Not answering my question; I'm going to assumed you were bullied at some point. Probably everyone has been. Everyone doesn't gun down 32 innocent people. It's fine to consider the various influences that may have caused his actions. But IMO, this thread comes perilously close to justifying his actions, and shifting blame to other students. That's a little too close to blaming the victim for my liking.

[piedmont]

142. I didn't answer your question because you were dishonest.

You said you were "just curious," but you actually wanted to accuse me of projection in order to undermine my argument. By that token I would say that your defense of bullying as harmless to mental health is typical of a former bully still in denial. Neither ad hominem belongs in this thread.
No one on here has said Cho was justified. We're saying that his mental illness was aggravated by the bullying he experienced in school. I've repeated this over and over and you still think that straw man will work?

[Marie26]

146. I thought that was obvious

Yes, I believe you & others are over-emphasizing the effects of bullying because of your own personal experiences. This person was cruel, mean, violent, murderous and - a bully. The continuing efforts to make him into a victim really bug me.

[piedmont]

147. And obviously ridiculous and intellectually lazy

It's like telling minorities that they over-emphasize the effects of racism because of their personal experiences. It's the only attempt at an argument you have left, and it's an attack not on the idea but the person presenting the idea.
The evidence we have is that he was cruel, mean, violent, and a bully AFTER having been bullied himself. That's EXACTLY how psychologists say the effects of being a chronic victim of bullying would manifest.

[hfojvt]

160. "What's bizarre? I mean, we're all pretty bizarre. Some of us are just better

at hiding it." Breakfast Club

You make it sound like strange = violent. Some of his aggressive behaviour seems like a response to bullying. Can't bullying make you mean? The way he glared at everyone sounds defensive to me, more than aggressive. It's a way of saying 'leave me alone'. I have seen the bullied later turn into the bullies. I don't excuse what he did though. To me it is one thing to go after your tormenters, it is another thing entirely to lash out at all of society.

[Bluebear]

34. "GO BACK TO CHINA!"

:(

[northzax]

127. yeah, I call bullshit on that one

Centreville has a large and growing Asian population, this just seems a little too convenient.

[IronLionZion]

155. I was told to go back to China, Mexico, Africa, Puerto Rico, you name it

don't overestimate American teenagers. I'm East Indian.

[northzax]

171. I am just saying that in a county that is 20% Korean

it seems unlikely that this mistake would be made.

[cooolandrew]

37. I only guessed it was racism that drove him to the edge, but wasn't too far from the truth.

[Marie26]

38. But what about his "brooding" at 7 years old?

It seems like this man's problems went way, way before high school.

[coalition_unwilling]

55. He may have suffered from early onset bipolar disorder. While the

disease typically manifests in late adolescence to early adulthood, the psychiatric profession has been reporting an increase recently in children genetically predisposed to it presenting symptoms as early as 2 years of age.

My wife told me that one of Cho's South Korean aunts or uncles reported that they knew something was wrong before he even came to the United States at the age of 7-8.

[Marie26]

60. So it doesn't seem like bullying was the reason. nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

75. Not THE reason...

but it sounds as if years and years of bullying and ostracization contributed to his decision to plan and execute this abomination.

[coalition_unwilling]

108. Bullying, while reprehensible whenever it occurs, would not

have been the specific trigger for someone like Cho, suffering from untreated bipolar disorder. And, truly, the bullying reported would have happened many years earlier while Cho was in high school or junior high school.

I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist but have had several family members with the disease, forcing a learning curve upon me. Children under the age of 10 who develop early onset bipolar disorder may experience short periods of intense rage and what appears to be horrible temper tantrums (reminisicent of the "terrible twos") where they act violently towards themselves and others.

[smoogatz]

43. It would also be a good idea to stop selling high capacity, large-caliber

semi-automatic firearms to psychotic people who've been involuntarily committed to mental hospitals, having been deemed a danger to themselves and others. Maybe.

[piedmont]

80. No reason we can't do both. It's a multi-faceted problem. nt

[smoogatz]

44. Dupe. Bug got me.

[kirby]

45. SO bullying is punishable by DEATH now?

Bullying is a problem. Parents are the main problem. Many parents like to say 'Boys will be boys' or 'Let them fight it out' which sends the wrong message. We have a president who bullies the nation and other nations. I agree with all that.

However, bullying is not punishable by death.

I had to read a paper aloud in school that I wrote called 'Religious vomit' that criticized the Bible and religion. I was booed and call names too by fellow students. I didn't feel I needed to kill anyone. It just reinforced my belief that others are closed minded and unwilling to debate their beliefs.

[Bucky]

86. If you'll notice, it wasn't the bullies who Cho shot. It was more innocents

I imagine whoever bullied him had probably previously been bullied themselves.

And no, bullying doesn't warrant or directly cause these mass homocides. Mental illness plus environmental pressures (bullying is one option here) plus a society that glamorizes violence (already going on with Cho as most newspaper headlines today will show you) plus easily accessible guns all combined lead to this sort of tragedy. The killer is still responsible for his actions. But let's not be naive about the other inputs.

[goddess40]

97. Parents are part of the problem but it's school districts that carry the most blame

Schools need a comprehensive anti-bullying program that starts in Kindergarten and goes through high school.

By the time a kid gets pushed over the edge he is no longer in control - is it okay - of course not but to be bullied on almost a daily basis is to be tortured.

Your incident was isolated and of your choosing - victims of bullying don't go out of their way to get picked on it comes to them. If the adults don't step up to the plate and stop this there will be more school shootings.

If you'd like to learn more about bullying really works and it's effects read :
The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander: From Preschool to High School--How Parents and Teachers Can Help Break the Cycle of Violence by Barbara Coloroso
http://www.amazon.com/Bully-Bullied-Bystander-Preschool-School-How/dp/006001430X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5118222-1722404?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177018035&sr=8-1
it is the best book I've ever read on bullying

[kirby]

120. Reponse

First, thanks for the book suggestion. It looks interesting.

Second, I'm not sure the incident I described was isolated and of my choosing since it was a surprise when I was asked to read a paper out loud. I had assumed it was between myself and the teacher. But regardless of that, I grew up fairly poor and was constantly picked on, teased, and bullied because of stupid stuff. Typically because I was wearing the cheap generic 'Sears' jeans while others had the Jordache or the Levi's jeans. It did make me angry and I felt a sense of unfairness about life, but I never wanted to kill anyone. I dont have children and may never, so I do not know if things are worse know than 20 years ago or not.

[jus_the_facts]

47. How about STOP glamorizing this behavior with TELEVISION...

....all the reality and talk shows promote it...be as backstabbing and MEANSPIRITED as possible...plus all the crime shows on every channel that does the same.

I was picked on relentlessly as a kid but I learned that sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me...unless I allow them to...luckily most tv shows back in the day were geared to back this sayin' up with a MORAL to show how this type of behavior is wrong...in society today peoples horrendous behaviors are used to entertain in the most sickening ways. :nopity:

[koopie57]

88. I humbly disagree

Words can hurt. If words didn't make such an impact on a person's self-image it wouldn't be as big an issue as it is. I would like to hear one person who can honestly say they were never hurt by the words of another.

[Annces]

49. What an idiot teacher to threaten with an F

Some people are really tone-deaf with varieties of personality.

[smoogatz]

50. And what would you have done, to get him to go to counseling?

Just curious.

[Annces]

58. Well if someone is so shy

they can barely speak above a whisper, you don't force them. You try to ease them into it, in any multitude of ways. By exercises that bring them along, and give them confidence. He obviously was very smart to be in college, but had just been passed along by one teacher after the next who didn't have the time or resources.

[Marie26]

59. I disagree

The VTech professors did take the time to meet with him and refer him to counseling. He simply refused to go. They also notified school authorities & the campus police. He was so disturbing, other students stopped coming to class, so an English professor gave him personal tutoring & attempted to ask him about his problems, without success. What else could they have done?

"Lucinda Roy said that in October of 2005 she was contacted as head of the English Department by a professor who was disturbed by a piece of his writing. Ms. Roy, rebuffed by Mr. Cho, contacted the campus police, counseling services, student affairs and officials in her department. Ms. Roy described the writing as a “veiled threat rather than something explicit.”

University officials told her that she could drop Mr. Cho from the class. Or, they said, she could tutor him individually, and she agreed to do so three times from October to December 2005. During those sessions, she said in an interview, he always wore sunglasses and a baseball cap pulled low. Nikki Giovanni, whose poetry classes Mr. Cho attended in 2005, said today that other students had left the class because of Mr. Cho, and she was so concerned about his behavior that she wrote to Ms. Roy about it.

Ms. Roy said she contacted the campus police, student affairs, counseling services, the college, and the police, who offered to provide security for Ms. Giovanni during classes, but she declined. The police would take no further action because Mr. Cho’s works contained no direct threats, she said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18gunman.html?bl&ex=1177041600&en=406dda3f52cd0455&ei=5087%0A

[Annces]

68. I am talking about grade school, high school

His shyness was probably there since early adolescence. By college, teachers don't deal with emotional issues at all.

[Marie26]

77. These ones did.

I'm just going to come out and say it. I don't think this is a case where a normal, if unbalanced kid, was driven over the edge by bullying. All indications are that this person was severely disturbed from an early age. His teachers became afraid of him - it's not just that he was withdrawn, but that he systematically stalked female students, took photos of students during class, wrote violent & enraged works, intimidated teachers and sullenly rejected anyone who attempted to help. When a professor tried to accompany him to counseling, he declined. When a teacher asked him to tune down the violent imagery, his response was "make me." People talk about how "angry" & "mean" he was - not just that he was depressed or deluded. His "manifesto" is just one angry, long diatribe against everyone who's ever "done him wrong". Students were SCARED of him, and thought he was the type to be a school shooter. He never smiled, but while he was shooting students, he was laughing. People can be mentally ill w/o being cruel. This guy was cruel, mean, violent, sadistic. A psychopath. A BAD PERSON. People keep looking for the fault here; well, I fault the shooter.

[Annces]

83. Go ahead

No one is stopping you. We all see things differently.

[Stu DeBeouf]

110. You are not going to win....

With the latest news that he was bullied...we will see a rallying of prior bullying victims indulging in excusing, and defending Cho's "Revenge of the Nerds" fantasies. It sucks. I was bullied at various times in my life, and got over it...as most do. Others are haunted by it forever.

[Marie26]

119. You're probably right

It does seem like people are reacting from their own experiences w/bullying. But, like you said, most people who are bullied don't grow up to be mass murderers. It seems like an excuse for what this person did, and that's what bugs me.

[GumboYaYa]

52. Give me a break...lots of kids get picked on; virtually none of them

go kill 32 classmates.

The kid was psychotic because it is an illness. His prior experience impacted the way his pychosis manifested itself, but it was not the cause The causes of his illness are most likely physiological and probably could have been treated with proper medication.

[mudesi]

66. You need to educate yourself

Bullying is indeed a root cause of such behavior later in life.

[jus_the_facts]

70. Oh BULLSHIT...if it were then there wouldn't be anybody left alive on the planet. n/t

[mudesi]

111. That is an absurd argument (nm)

[antiimperialist]

136. Yes. Very absurd

He misrepresented our position.
We, those who believe bullying was a contributing factor to his accumulated hatred, did not imply that All bullies kids will eventually kill scores of people.
He also implied that all people with grave psychological problems go around shooting everyone.
A common trait of bad logic is hasty generalization. These sophists frequently times use the words "always, all, never", which is hardly ever a good idea.

[mondo joe]

76. Maybe the bullies were bullied as kids, so they're not responsible for themselves eitther.

:eyes:

[Bucky]

91. This isn't an argument about the "one single cause", but about a contributing factor

If you dumb down the problem, you'll only come up with dumbed down solutions. Something like "every school kid should be packing heat."

There are four big inputs here:
1- The responsibility of the mentally ill person to control his behavior (and no, not all mentally disturbed people are incapable of self control--most can control what they do)

2- The environmental stresses (whether the bullying Cho or the Columbine boys endured or a percieved oppression by government or authorities as some of those early post office workers endured)

3- The ready availability of guns

4- The social glamorization of violence (look at all the cool tough guy poses of Cho adorned on most newspapers headlines today--I'm serious, he looks totally kewl with his rigid gun posture and black gloves and backwards cap).

Now I'm not blaming any one factor here. But worked together, these make a mixture in which a lost and angry person could snap. A smart society will try and control those inputs. A responsible person won't get sleepy while driving and drift into oncoming traffic--yet we as a society still feel the need to "coddle" people by putting bumps and yellow stripes down the middle of roads. Why should gun violence be treated any different than car violence? You identify the problem and you regulate the causes.

[Karenina]

124. Hear, hear, Bucky!

The speculation, discussion and search to make some sense of this awful tragedy are imho positive ways to deal with the circumstance. Nothing is changed by simply cursing the shooter as an evil demon even if that is, in the end, what he became. In addition to your four points, we have clues of an early childhood manifestation of an inability to communicate, which could indicate some level of ASD, and exacerbating circumstance upon circumstance piled mile high. I suppose the question to be, "WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY DO AMERICANS WANT?" Those declaring, "Well *I* experienced such and such but *I* turned out OK" are COMPLETELY missing the opportunity being presented.

The efforts to EXPLAIN behaviour are efforts to UNDERSTAND, not excuse. As in the case of the die-off of bees, it is likely a convergence of conditions rather than a single triggering event. There is general agreement with Einstein that the decimation of the bee population heralds that of homo sapiens. Theories have been proffered. Could it be GMOs? Cell phones? Mites? A previously unknown pathology? ALL of these theories need to be explored QUICKLY. (I, for one, hope a solid connexion can be established between electromagnetic pollution and the bees' immune and navigation systems). We humans would then be presented with some stark choices, eh? :evilgrin: Never mind that the carnage in the DRC to obtain components for the latest Nokia "fashion collection" has flown under the radar.

In that same vein, should the evidence for bullying become an acknowledged contributing factor, perhaps the BULLYING nature of American history and contemporary society could receive MUCH CLOSER SCRUTINY. That would be a positive development, ya think?

[mudesi]

112. That is an absurd argument (nm)

[mondo joe]

131. Why? If you can simply tell people to stop bullying, why not just tell people to stop killing

sprees?

[johnnie]

53. I even wince at some comments here on DU

I have a pretty tough skin, but sometimes I am amazed at some of the things said to each other here and wonder if the person doing the "bullying" has any idea who they are dealing with.

Words can hurt people, be it in grade school, college campuses or on the Internet. I'm not saying everyone here is a bully, but I see a lot of that sort of "classroom" mentality on different forums and wonder how people can still treat people with such little regard.

Am I the only one who notices this? Maybe I think I think too much..lol

[Cults4Bush]

63. Nope... youre not thinking too much:)

Dont take it all on upon yourself. Some through either blind faith in their fave politicos or agenda lose themselves in the passion of their arguments and forget that words can do more internal damage than fists many times.

Dont take on others negativity and dont take their bait. I used to bite all the time until my doctor warned me about a very likely heart attack in the near future if my BP didnt get down in large amounts and quickly. Taking a long break from DU immediately helped:)

[johnnie]

74. Oh, I am cool with it

I don't let that kind of stuff really get to me that much. I was constantly "bullied" from the day I started school. I was considerably shorter than just about everyone in my classes from the first day of school until I got out. Even at the age of 42 I hear jokes, they don't bother me a bit.

Even as a kid I didn't get bothered by them, but I always stuck up for the kids that *did* get bullied because I thought it was just bullshit and I knew what it was like. I had no problems with it, but I knew other kids did and I couldn't stand by and watch it.

I haven't changed in the way I feel and I think that people on the net forget that they are talking to a real human being on here when they say some of the shit they say. For the most part, people on DU are pretty decent and most of them can have a discussion without throwing out insults and such, but there are some people who like to bully and what they may not know, is that they could be bullying the same sort of person this Cho guy was. In the flesh or on a forum, it makes not much of a difference.

[malaise]

61. I made a comment on another thread

suggesting that he was bullied in school. I can imagine what a shy kid eight year old kid asian who couldn't speak English and who was clueless about the culture in American schools faced when he entered the school system in Virginia.

Add to that parents who had no clue about the culture or his problems. Cruelty produces more violence than we like to think about. I wonder if that teacher even reprimanded those disgusting cruel kids. I remember becoming friends with a plump awkward girl from another island after the snobs in our class laughed at her accent. I let them have it in front of the teacher and after class that day she came and thanked me, in tears. We remained friends for decades. My classmates never bothered me because I had five other sibblings in that stupid elite catholic school and was totally fearless, but I never tolerated students bullying other kids.

[lukasahero]

64. "Goddammit you've got to be kind"

I think Vonnegut was trying to say something many of us don't want to hear.

Do these facts absolve the young man for the choices he made and the actions he took? Of course not. But every reporter and commentator I hear talk about him talks about his hate and anger and all I could think was doesn't anyone else see his pain?

We want to believe this was his crime alone so we can absolve ourselves of our own participation in creating children who grow up to be "monsters" but until we accept responsibility for our own actions toward the weak, the invisible, the vulnerable, we will continue to see these rampages occur.

I don't know how we reach a young man as badly damaged as he was. I do know that there is a way we can try to prevent any more young people from becoming so damaged again: "Goddammit you've got to be kind."

[marions ghost]

105. beautiful

thank you for yours and Vonnegut's words.

So true that the tendency people have in the wake of something like this is to isolate this guy even further. Consign him to the Killers Hall of Fame. He is an abomination. But what if we could roll back the clock and get him some help that prevented this--would we not want to help him? Would he not be deserving of better help than he got? Obviously help needs to come early. By the time such kids reach college, it is much harder to reach them. The universities are having a tough time these days dealing with students with serious issues. Sure they might have done more, but their resources are limited. They are stretched pretty thin. And they have to follow so many rules it makes your head hurt. So often fear of legal action leads to no action at all. The English teachers had it right about this student, but support services were hamstrung, it looks like to me. This is typical of most universities IMO.

I'm not arguing with the fact that Cho may have had a predisposition to problems, but it sounds like in this case, the right diagnosis and help fell short long before he even got to college. We don't know how much the parents might have been at fault, but it's clear that the early school experience made things worse. And the glorification of violence in our culture also contributes. Look what the media did with his story. As he knew they would.

Bullying can warp kids for life and aggravate existing conditions. There needs to be much less tolerance for it, with serious punishment for those who continue to do it. Kindness has to be instilled at a young age too.

[mondo joe]

71. So people who bully are responsible for their action is full, but those who respond

with spree killings are not?

[piedmont]

78. Not talking about responsibility, liability, etc.

A person with a then-untreated mental illness was bullied and ostracized by his classmates, quite probably exacerbating his psychosis. He later boiled over and killed people. I'm not excusing him and I'm not saying his victims deserved to die even if some of them did bully him (which they did not, by all accounts). I'm saying we need to seriously address the culture of bullying and ostracism in our schools that promotes stress, erodes trust, and ultimately produces hate.

[Balbus]

84. For every 1 person who went on a mass killing spree because they were picked on...

there's a 100 million people who were picked on and did not go on a mass killing spree. What a stupid fucking argument.

[KurtNYC]

85. This was one incident, one person, once.

We have a serious lack of mental health resources and if anything good can come out of this horrible event it may be a push to improve that situation.

I believe that no one has it easy in school. Kids get picked on for being (fill in the blank) and they think "wow if I wasn't ______ kids would not pick on me" But the truth is they WOULD, the would just pick on them for something else. Being picked on or laughed at is a poor predictor of who will go on a killing spree because it is as common as air.

The media encourages us all to look backward, now that this guy did what he did, and point to things and say "aha! there is the reason!" but statistically, conclusions reached in that way just aren't valid.

[WI_DEM]

95. Yes, in an ideal world this shouldn't occur, but going to school can be brutal at times

even for those who fit in more than this guy did. Peers can be terrible to one another. But it's part of growing and learning how to go with the flow. I don't think this happened much in college. It sounds like attempts were made to get to know this guy, but he didn't open up or ignored his roommates. Obviously the system failed because this guy was a time bomb just waiting to go off.

[tbyg52]

113. Parents and teachers who allow this kind of thing to continue

are the root of the problem. I'm not saying there wouldn't still be people with mental health issues if harrassment and bullying stopped, but adults (and even kids in positions of power) should not allow this kind of thing to go on.

[SmokingJacket]

114. That would be a great start.

Add better treatment of mental illness and limiting access of semi-automatic weapons, we'd make a huge difference, imho. Not stop it altogether, but make a dent, anyway.

I was bullied as a kid and had terrible rage inside, and bloody fantasies -- the two reasons I didn't do anything were...

1. Didn't want to hurt my parents.
2. Believed the world had better things in store for me one day (I was right).

[Morgana LaFey]

128. Are you saying that's what made him a sociopath?

I don't THINK so. I'm sure it didn't help, but I don't think that's what caused ALL his mental health problems.

[piedmont]

145. Didn't say ALL his mental health problems were caused by bullying.

That would be an utterly stupid argument to make, and I'm not utterly stupid.

[Morgana LaFey]

166. Actually, you didn't answer my question

No matter.

[Marrah_G]

129. It is more then just bullying

Some people are born screwed up. Their brains aren't wired right. Yes bullying an already messed up person can make it worse, but just eliminating it won't fix things.

[Blue_Tires]

132. no amount of teasing or bullying is worth gunning down people

I was teased, i was bullied, i has troubles with classmates, teachers and principals, but even as a kid i knew violence would not help anything...

[piedmont]

148. No one said it was.

I was teased, i was bullied, i has troubles with classmates, teachers and principals, but even as a kid i knew violence would not help anything...

And did you also have an underlying mental illness? Do you understand that bullying can cause adverse effects on mental health? See the connection with Cho?

[LisaL]

133. Oh for crying out loud.

Stop bullying and it will stop killing sprees? Give me a break.

[Mister Ed]

139. Bullying and ostracism need to stop, whether it puts an end to spree killings or not. n/t

[piedmont]

143. very true. nt

[dysfunctional press]

144. i got bullied quite a bit growing up, and i didn't kill anybody...

the world isn't going to change the way it's always been.

[IronLionZion]

157. I still get bullied

always have, probably always will, by every race, age, size, sexual orientation, and gender. I still have no intentions of hurting anyone. Even good-natured people can smell fear (shyness, insecurity, low self-esteem, no girlfriend, etc.) and humiliate you to make themselves feel better. The world won't change; I'm the one that needs to change. I'm sure confidence makes all the difference in the world. I hope to find it someday, but I think it might be inside me somewhere.

[thinkbridge]

149. wanna stop terrorism? stop bullying & ostracizing people!

[ZinZen]

156. Bullying is a HUGE problem

All of the school shooters from Columbine to the VT killer were bullied. This issue is always mentioned as a problem but I do not see any efforts to address this issue, even though ALL the school shooters were reportedly bullied.

BTW, some do not just get over being bullied. I was bullied as a child and carried some emotional baggage for awhile due to it. I have spoken to others that have had the same experiences. Please do not minimize bullying behavior as just some schoolyard ritual that most kids go through and then all is well. There can be some mean consequences to it, as seen at worst by the school shooters.

[camero]

159. Actually the poster is quite right

It works that way on the world level too. Even though I would say that bombing and putting a boot on the neck of poor, brown people goes a little bit past bullying and goes to murder and war crimes.

[IronLionZion]

158. Al Qaeda are a bunch of cowardly bullies

much like our Republicans. Bullies like Ronald "cut and run" Reagan. He dodged service in WWII, and he cut and ran out of Lebanon, and he bullied the American workers. The world might never recover from the after-effects of Reagan and W, but we can beat Al Qaeda...if we want to.

[camero]

151. Yep I agree

and more parents should teach thier children how to properly act civilized. But since alot of parents are children themselves in the mind, your wish unfortunately won't happen.

If you don't like someone for whatever reason, leave em alone and shut the fuck up would be my advice.

[mdmc]

162. yes

:kick:

[LostInAnomie]

167. Hooray for mitigation!

It'll sure be nice when none of us are responsible for our actions.

[USA_1]

170. Bullying

Schools have done everything they could to stop sexual harassment but continue to ignore bullying. A sad set of double standards.

Here's my story: I was also bullied in high school but decided one day that I had enough. I took a large black knife and waved it in front of some people's noses and even left a mark or two on somebody's desk. Word spread fast. Nobody bothered me after that. I'm not proud of what I did, but it worked.

Some times you just have to fight fire with fire.