I have no problem with anyone condemning Cho.

[GaYellowDawg]

Whether or not Cho was mentally ill, whether or not Cho was disturbed, or picked on, or ostracised, or whatever, one thing overrides anything else about Cho:

Cho is a mass murderer.

Do you think it makes any difference to the families of the victims what his motivation was? His mental state? Whether he was picked on? If he was embarrassed in class? It sure wouldn't to me. All I would know is that my son or daughter or brother or sister or niece or nephew or friend is dead. If I knew a victim, my only thought about Cho would be anger that he died too slowly.

Cho got picked on? Cho got ostracized? I did, too. All the way through adolescence, I was bullied, beaten up, humiliated by peers and teachers, and was so ashamed of myself by it all that I couldn't even fully confide in my parents because I was irrationally afraid they would be ashamed of me, too. Hardly a day went by where I didn't contemplate suicide. The physical harassment at least ceased when I grew 7 inches and put on 40 pounds of muscle in about a year and a half, but the ostracism never stopped. Later on in life, I was diagnosed with and treated for depression, through both therapy and medication. I have put all of the hurt, and most importantly, the consuming rage, behind me.

Depression can manifest inwardly or outwardly. I suppose as one of the former, I have even less sympathy for Cho than someone else; after all, I went through my version of hell, too, and didn't kill anyone. I do think Cho should be studied in detail, so that the next person like him may be treated. But sympathize with him? Hell, no. However he got there, whatever happened to him, whatever his illness, in the last hours of his life, Cho was a murdering piece of shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Strikes me as immature.

Dude's dead. When he was alive he suffered from mental illness.

What's the point of condemning him besides self-aggrandizement?

[JuniperLea]

7. Oh Good God

I agree with Bornaginhooligan!


:hi:

[GaYellowDawg]

9. Whatever.

What's the point of condemning him besides self-aggrandizement?

Because it makes me ill to see more people sympathizing with him than with his victime.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Does it really?

"Because it makes me ill to see more people sympathizing with him than with his victime."

Or are you just making that up, because of self-aggrandizement?

[GaYellowDawg]

19. Literally? No. Figuratively? Yes.

It's genuinely upsetting. Does that answer your question, or is there something else you can call self-aggrandizing?

Surely you can see the inconsistency in multiple replies to someone whom you claim is being self-aggrandizing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

You're figuratively making it up?

I think you mean literally.

Just more "some folks say..." crap.

[GaYellowDawg]

24. Breakdown in communication here.

I thought you were asking me if what I saw made me ill. The answer to that is literally, no, etc.

To answer your actual question: was I making that up? The general tone of the board seemed to me to be more about sympathizing with victims of bullying than victims of murder, which gave me the impression that there was more attention paid to the fact that someone got picked on than that others got killed. I would think that would be upsetting.

I suppose it's a matter of interpreting what I see differently than you. The whole point of a bulletin board is to tell what you have to say to others. Whether I got 1 or 100 replies didn't matter that much to me. If the purpose of my OP was to simply draw attention to myself, I would have spent a lot less time typing it and simply written one or two very inflammatory sentences.

If you disagree with what I have to say, then do so instead of immediately throwing an insult like "self-aggrandizing" around.

[Madspirit]

44. *snort*

How dismissive. "...he got picked on"...meaning as opposed to killed. No. He got abused. ...and he's also dead. He was probably schizophrenic. He absolutely had some kind of mental illness. He had been troubled his entire life. Society and his jerk-assed family, had THAT long....TO KEEP THIS FROM HAPPENING. I don't even understand blaming him. What does that do? Does the ol' pound of flesh bring anyone back? ...and where are you going to get your pound of flesh? He killed himself too. So it didn't work out real well for him either now did it. If his mental illness had been address PROPERLY AND COMPLETELY, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Lee

[Lex]

17. Not one person has "sympathized more with him than with his victims."

You made that up.

[GaYellowDawg]

21. No individual posters.

But the content of the board as a whole? Admittedly, I did not see the board in the immediate aftermath, but it seems like it now.

[Lex]

22. Trying to figure out what went wrong with him

and searching for reasons why and asking ourselves if more could've been done to help him and thus, keep this from happening, THAT is what is going on here.

[flying_monkeys]

26. I think most here went through a progression of sympathy....

Starting with the victims, then their parents, their friends, then Cho's parents and now to Cho - - because they all could use a little sympathy (yes, even Cho). But notice most of us since Monday started with the victims first - - and the shooter last now.

What, you think everyone here went from 0- Cho while skipping over everyone else? Read back a few pages...

[GaYellowDawg]

30. That's a legitimate point.

I was out of town without access to DU until today. Perhaps I am being unfair.

[Lisa]

33. that's the impression I got too

What you said, flying_monkeys ... your overview sounds reasonable to me. In fact, the progression seemed quite similar to what happened on 9/11. Initial confusion (surely that estimate of 20 had to be wrong!), then people with friends or family at the crime scene worrying about whether they were all right (and being comforted by other DUers). Anger and incomprehension that there were so many victims.

Then people marvelling at the courage of individuals like Professor Librescu, who delayed Cho long enough to save others. Expressions of sorrow for the families of the victims, and good wishes for the recovery of the casualties. Mixed in with this, long discussions about whether more people having guns, different decisions by the police and the administration, and better access to mental health treatment, or zero-tolerance policies for bullying, would have helped or not (this is a mainly-political site, and like it or not, it's what a lot of DUers like to talk about). And yesterday, another wave of shock about the release of the photos and videos.

A lot of things happened over 3 days -- I'm not a moderator, nor was I online for the entire time, but when I was checking in at DU a couple of times each day, I didn't see a "zero to Cho" leap either.

[Buzz Clik]

27. Holy shit, man! Where did you come down on the scores of "Dancing on Gerry Ford's Grave" threads?

Anyone who whines about comdemning this sick fuck damned well better have been bashing heads about Gerry Ford.

[Madspirit]

42. Thank-you Bornagin

You know I agree with you. 100%

This horrible life of his didn't exactly work out for him either, did it. I feel sorry for all involved. My heart is big enough.

Lee

[cyborg_jim]

2. Understanding Cho is a worthy goal

If there is an underlying environmental cause for the ability to do what Cho did then it is important to know what that is. It is not about excuses - it is about better understanding human nature, because making hasty and incorrect conclusions about the reasons and then acting upon them is liable to lead to poor solutions.

[JuniperLea]

4. yep n/t

[GaYellowDawg]

10. Understanding is different from sympathizing.

Understanding is crucial. Sympathizing is not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Understand the sin, don't love the sinner?

Didn't somebody famous once say that? No? Ok.

[GaYellowDawg]

32. Nice that you can reduce it to a sarcastic sound byte.

Perhaps you ought to host a neocon talk radio show.

Understanding is crucial because other tragedies like this might be averted. If someone had been able to anticipate that Cho would do this, then perhaps there would be a lot more people alive today and Cho would be somewhere getting treatment and on his way to a healthy, happy life.

Sympathy? The only way that I would think someone could have sympathy for Cho is to consider him independently of his actions. To paraphrase you, I feel that the "sin" is part of who the "sinner" is. I am simply not willing to parse mass murder out of the picture of who Cho was, and given that, I do not and never will feel sympathy for him. His emotions did not make him a terrible person. His actions, however, did.

I'm eagerly awaiting the next imputation of my motives or snarky comment. :sarcasm:

[Lisa]

3. and besides, the majority of people who are mentally ill don't do what he did

I've met dozens of people, including family, friends, and co-workers, who have been diagnosed, in some cases hospitalized, and treated -- and only two of them have ever done anything violent. One of them attacked a family member (who recovered), and the other made an unsuccessful suicide attempt. Both of them have been stable for years, even decades, and have gone on to lead happy and productive lives.


p.s. some later posters have noted that Cho may not have been as strong (and/or as lucky) as those of us who may have been in a similar position at one time. I did notice that he seemed to go to quite a bit of effort to "justify" what he did, in those long rambling letters and tapes. If he were entirely inhuman, would he have cared about what people thought of him? I'm upset that such a pitiful, wretched man was able to ruin so many lives. I'm especially angry that his case will likely make it harder to de-stigmatize mental illness -- also, I work at a college, and people may be stressed about this (when being calm and tolerant towards anyone who is different may go a lot farther). And, being Asian, I'm not thrilled about not just international, but domestic-born students from now on.

[JuniperLea]

5. You answered your own questions

You were lucky to be strong enough to deal, Cho was not.

I pity him. I am filled with sorrow for his family... oh dear Lord! The agony. The obvious victims are not the only victims in this story.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned that you have no empathy for him.

You can't blame the mentally ill for their illness. They didn't choose that life.

Honestly. I truly believe you should be ashamed of yourself for this biased, unkind and subhuman rant.

[GaYellowDawg]

29. Oh, my.

I have an enormous amount of sympathy for Cho's family. Tremendous. This thing was an absolute horror, but if someone in my family did it? That would be terribly traumatic.

I stopped having empathy for Cho the second that he pulled the trigger. Up to that point? Sure, I'd be sympathetic. Absolutely. I would have wanted to find a really good therapist for him, and would have been willing to be an additional ear and a friend.

No matter what he was going through, though, the fact remains: he pulled the trigger. I have no sympathy for killers, because as far as I'm concerned, their individual causation ceases to matter. They are simply takers of life. I sympathize with Cho no more than I sympathize with Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. George Bush is clearly emotionally disturbed, but I see no sympathy for him on this board. Why should we sympathize with someone who does terrible things?

As for "biased, unkind, and subhuman," of course it was biased. The only way that I could be unbiased about Cho would be if I didn't give a damn about what happened at all. And I do, so I welcome that. Unkind? Perhaps so, if you feel that caring for mass murderers is unkind. Subhuman? I severely disagree with that, of course, but I did take note that you called my statement, and not me, subhuman. However much we disagree, I appreciate you for that alone.

[flying_monkeys]

6. Did that make you feel better?

Cuz I am sure it didn't hurt Cho a bit....


I am sorry you were tormented in school. It is painful to see how hurtful the school experience can be for so many...


But I will still feel sympathetic to anyone who gets *that far* into his own Hell that planning a mass murder (and actually DOING it) seems like a good idea to him.


And I will thank my lucky stars that I never got anywhere close to that Hell myself.


(It doesn't detract from my sympathy for the victims and families - - really, it dooesn't)

[MedleyMisty]

8. Does hate bring anyone back to life?

I mean, if you feel like that, I've got no problem with it. It's when you start insulting people and telling them they're wrong just because they feel empathy and compassion that I have a problem.

[GaYellowDawg]

14. No.

I don't hate Cho, but I sure would if a victim was one of my family.

And there's plenty of hate around here for Bush, although it brings none of his victims back to life.

[AlCzervik]

11. condemning only really works for the condemner, kind of a one way street.

[Marie26]

15. Cool.

I'll condemn him, then. I'll save my sympathy for someone who doesn't take 32 innocent lives.

[northzax]

16. two sociologists are walking down the street

when they see a man beaten and bloody in the gutter.

one turns to the other and says "the man who did this needs our help"

[Lex]

18. Sounds like a freeper joke.

nt

[northzax]

39. nah, a sociologist joke

they all know it. at least it was told to me in Soc101 at my disturbingly liberal college.

[Lisa]

23. actually, real sociologists would probably say something like,

(as they pick up the victim and drive him to the hospital), "And to think that's the fifth person we've found this month. This isn't the poorest neighborhood in the city ... in fact, there's a wealthy gated community right over there ... and yet the employment center here was closed, in the recent round of social services cutbacks. And note that we don't have as much as a 24-hour walk-in clinic around here, but have to take this guy across town ... and likely chip in for treatment too because dollars to doughnuts, he's uninsured."

At least, the guy I share my office with (who's currently studying the long-term effects of the African AIDS pandemic on spousal/child abuse) would talk like that.

[SayWhatYo]

20. But Cho was just as much as a victim as his victims....

:sarcasm:

Actually, I've only seen two people so far try to go that route.... I don't think many people are sympathizing with him, are they? Perhaps you're confusing sympathy with trying to understand what made him explode?

[Buzz Clik]

28. And that's as far as it should ever go.

[Straight Shooter]

25. "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones."

Shakespeare.

Cho was a mass murderer. I've sat in courtrooms and watched the faces of the families and friends of murder victims as the defendant stood trial. You never saw so much pain.

I have no feeling for Cho. We all make choices, whether to act, or react to injustice heaped upon us. I don't care if people are still condemning Cho a thousand years from now.

[northzax]

41. interesting choice of lines

but I agree with your sentiment

[Madspirit]

45. Wrong

True choice can only be made by the sane. This boy was as sick as sick gets. ...and society saw to it that he had no choices. That's how we treat the mentally ill. I know. I am one. We don't see them until they hurt someone. If we saw their pain this would never happen. My heart is big enough to have compassion for his victims, their families, his family and him.
Lee

[Straight Shooter]

46. I respect your opinion.

But I wonder how long he stewed in his pot of vengeful thinking before he began the process of meticulous planning, step by step by step, in order to execute his desire to strike back at those who never did him harm.

Be mindful that it's likely that some of those he murdered also struggled with abuse in their lives, and mental illness. He destroyed their victory in overcoming those problems and trying to make something of themselves.

Think about the lines from Shakespeare again. The "evil" is the deed and the results which spring therefrom, not the one committing the deed.

[Bullwinkle925]

31. I'm very angry with his actions. I feel absolutely terrible for the victims.

I think that we don't quite have all the information of what it's like to be seriously mentally unstable. I hope we never have such a person as a member of our families. It is very difficult to deal with now. Cho should have been institutionalized, but with the current medical system in place and laws which govern the rights of individuals it is not such an easy task.
I'm sorry you had to endure what you did. I've seen it in my Jr. High and High School (a million years ago).
I'm glad that it didn't cause you to deteriorate to the level of Cho. I believe that Cho most likely had severe mental problems as a youngster and whatever happened to him in his teen years just pushed him over the edge even more. I will be curious to see if we ever hear from his immediate family as to what was done for him as he was growing up. I believe one of his Grandmothers was on the air today, but I had to leave and haven't seen or heard any more since this morning.
This is a horrible American tragedy. I wonder how many more of these time bombs are out there waiting to go off?
I can understand you wanting to get this off your chest. I don't pity Cho, per se, but I do pity whatever mental hell he underwent in his life.

[GaYellowDawg]

36. Thanks for this reply.

I think that we don't quite have all the information of what it's like to be seriously mentally unstable. I hope we never have such a person as a member of our families.

Me, too, and I feel absolutely terrible for Cho's family.

It is very difficult to deal with now. Cho should have been institutionalized, but with the current medical system in place and laws which govern the rights of individuals it is not such an easy task.

That's true, and it's a difficult truth, too. Because it feels unfair, I'd like to somehow argue with it, but I can't.

I'm sorry you had to endure what you did. I've seen it in my Jr. High and High School (a million years ago). I'm glad that it didn't cause you to deteriorate to the level of Cho.

I very much appreciate the sentiment, and I will say that it's an old scar instead of a wound now.

I believe that Cho most likely had severe mental problems as a youngster and whatever happened to him in his teen years just pushed him over the edge even more. I will be curious to see if we ever hear from his immediate family as to what was done for him as he was growing up. I believe one of his Grandmothers was on the air today, but I had to leave and haven't seen or heard any more since this morning.

I am hesitant to speculate because I'm no doctor, but I really hope that those with the appropriate knowledge do investigate this.

This is a horrible American tragedy. I wonder how many more of these time bombs are out there waiting to go off?

There's just no telling, but I think that the bombs are exacerbated with the ease of access to semiautomatic weapons.

I can understand you wanting to get this off your chest. I don't pity Cho, per se, but I do pity whatever mental hell he underwent in his life.

Getting it off my chest is pretty much what I was doing. I probably should have just refrained.

[Bullwinkle925]

38. No - it's a good thing not to refrain and to have an honest and open dialogue.

Whomever took it upon themselves to bully you must have had such insecure feelings themselves and/or very, very low self-esteem. I know these sound like trite conventional modern-day sayings, but I do believe in them. Someone who is well-adjusted and happy in their own lives I doubt would even think to cause harm or unhappiness in another's life. Just doesn't correlate. In watching the much-played video of Cho - I can't help but see the flat affect in both his facial expression and voice. There is 'no there' there. Who knows what kind of psychiatric break he might have had and when it happened? It is clear that he was very paranoid.
Anyone who is around a psychotic paranoid doesn't have much of a chance. They do not possess the ability to 'reason'. It makes me recall an experience I had with my sister. I believe that she was an undiagnosed schizophrenic. She did have a psychotic break and heard voices and was in the psych ward for a week years ago. She has since passed away, but I remember that one time we were sitting in our mother's hospital room.
A nurse happened to pass the room and glance in. My sister turned to me and said "Did you see the way that woman was looking at me?". The nurse did nothing more than any of us would do while walking down a hallway.
I was always trying to reassure her that no one was talking about her or giving her 'looks'.
Who knows what was going on in Cho's mind? I am also curious as to the type of behavior he displayed at the gun shop when he made his purchases. Everything I have heard (so far) is that he didn't speak or make eye contact with anyone. Why did the purchase go through? Do gun sellers have the same authority as bartenders in deciding whether or not to sell a gun or serve another drink?

I agree with your premise of using the excuse of bullying, etc. to try to make an understanding of why he did what he did. I really don't buy that excuse anyway. The boy/man was sick. The bullying may or may not have been going on - could have been purely imagination on his part due to paranoia. I've had not the best of times in growing up - I haven't used some of my past bad experiences to take it out on everyone else or wreak havoc in any way. My motto is always "You can be bitter or better - it's up to you". But then, (as far as I know) I'm not psychotic or mentally ill to a severe degree. That, I believe makes the difference in those who do kill and those who can rationalize their way through their difficulties.

[SmokingJacket]

34. Of course murderers deserved to be condemned. Period.

That doesn't mean we should stop trying to figure out why he did what he did, and try to stop it from happening again -- and understanding that while you (and I) "got over" bullying, we did it through some sort of inner strength or family support that others might not have. And it DOES fill you will rage.

We should try to stop situations where people are filled with rage, imho.

[Karenina]

35. "Cho was a murdering piece of shit. "

YUP and so what? He did what he did, it's done and cannot be undone. You can heap all the abuse you want onto him and SO WHAT? He's dead after having murdered 32 others. No invective you spew can touch him. It's NOT ABOUT YOU, or how you grew 7", the abuse abated and *YOU* turned out alright. The pertinent question is, "WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY DO AMERICANS WANT?" What you currently HAVE is obvious to anyone with eyes and ears.

[GaYellowDawg]

37. Consider this:

YUP and so what? He did what he did, it's done and cannot be undone. You can heap all the abuse you want onto him and SO WHAT? He's dead after having murdered 32 others. No invective you spew can touch him.

Neither can any sympathy.

It's NOT ABOUT YOU, or how you grew 7", the abuse abated and *YOU* turned out alright. The pertinent question is, "WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY DO AMERICANS WANT?" What you currently HAVE is obvious to anyone with eyes and ears.

Actually, the OP was about how I felt. I was expressing MY feelings about what I was reading here. I was talking about how MY experiences affected MY view of sympathizing with Cho. When it comes right down to it, every single post that's ever been made on this board is about how someone feels about something, or someone wanting to share something that s/he found important, so there's never a post that's been made that wasn't at least in some fashion about the poster.

If you don't like my opinion, fine. It's just an opinion. Don't try to tell me, however, that you're actually solving any of society's problems with your posts on DU. What a bloated sense of self-importance and ego you have.

[brentspeak]

43. ??

[AZBlue]

40. Sounds like you haven't put it behind you.

You're angry that someone who went through something similar to what you went through is getting pity and you're not. And, that's understandable. I have great sympathy for you both. I'm sorry you went through that.

[Bridget Burke]

47. You're still full of hurt & rage.

You were bullied in High School? Boo Hoo. I wasn't exactly the Prom Queen, myself. But I grew up. (Odd that people still disliked you after you bulked up. Wonder why?)

Cho's problem was severe mental illness. Your ignorance is astounding.