Kucinich: "“The people of Afghanistan don't want to be saved by us. They want to be saved from us."

[kpete]

Kucinich: Afghans want to be Saved from Us, Not by Us

By Dennis Kucinich

opednews.com

For OpEdNews: Dennis Kucinich - Writer
Washington D.C. Following a speech on the Floor of the House of Representative, Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) today made the following statement:

“Why are we still in Afghanistan? Al-Qaeda has been routed. Our occupation fuels a Taliban insurgency. The more troops we send, the more resistance we meet. If we want to be truly secure, we need to redefine national security to include financial security. Yet America has record debt, skyrocketing unemployment, huge trade deficits, record business failures and foreclosures.

“The people of Afghanistan don't want to be saved by us. They want to be saved from us. Our presence and our Predator drones kill countless innocents, creating more US enemies and destabilizing Pakistan. The US-created Karzai government is hopelessly corrupt and despised by the Afghan people. Our solution: Provide him with a high-level US minder which will make him even less legitimate. Another strategy: Buy or rent "friends" among would-be insurgents and give them guns and cash. But when the money runs out they shoot at U.S. soldiers. We've played all sides in Afghanistan and all the sides want us out. They do not want our presence, our control, our troops, our drones, our way of life. We are fighting the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time. What part of "get out" do we not understand?”

more:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kucinich-Afghans-want-to-by-Dennis-Kucinich-091202-723.html

[LakeSamish706]

1. Once again Dennis hits the nail on the head.... n/t

[kestrel91316]

2. Well said. The sooner we get out, the better. Though I also believe

that we need to leave the place the WE BROKE in something resembling the state we found it in when we invaded, and not considerably worse off. Pottery Barn, blah, blah, blah.

I'm glad the decision on how to proceed, and exactly when, isn't MINE to make. What a headache.

[Echo In Light]

3. Rec

[Life Long Dem]

4. Saved by us?

Maybe someone should pull the little troll off stage? I can't understand what he's saying.

Dennis said: "The people of Afghanistan don't want to be saved by us. They want to be saved from us."

:shrug:

[SoFlaJet]

6. If only the world were as simple

as it all is in Dennis Kucinich's head...

[showpan]

8. Dennis is right

The people don't want us there and they certainly don't want us funding the Taliban and all those warlords making them stronger and advocating the corruption. But then, who ever listens to the people?

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. What he is saying is easy to understand.

However, IMO, for a change he is wrong. He is not looking at it holistically.

Afghanistan is in the shape it's in because we ignored it for far too long. The war could have been over, quite literally, seven years ago. We shattered AQ, routed the Taliban and had their leadership cornered. Then we walked away. For the next six years those troops who were there tried to finish the mission while under-manned and under-funded, forcing us to rely on unreliable tactics such as the use of Predator drones. Meanwhile, every prisoner suffering abuse at the hands of the CIA was going home and telling all his friends and families what the Americans were 'really' like, fueling the insurgency.

We are in this position because Bushco fought the war stupidly. We've now announced a departure date, and specified what we intend to accomplish before that date - something the bushies never did.

This is not the same war it has been for the past 8 years.

[redqueen]

26. Exactly.

This poster said it very well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7132542&mesg_id=7135858

[reggie the dog]

32. what is not to understand?

deaths to coalition troops have been rising since we got there, this year is the worst year. Afghanistan's people don't want us there, so the support the people fighting against us.

[Egnever]

5. What a msroon

This is exactly why Denis will never be taken seriously. al queda has been routed?

[Roland99]

9. Are you aware of news to which the rest of the world is not privy?

"al Qaeda", what's left of what we call "al Qaeda", is hiding out in Pakistan, not Afghanistan.

In that sense, Kucinich is correct.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. Hiding in Pakistan for the moment. But the Pakistan army is now,

after their country has suffered many devastating attacks by AQ and the Taliban, on the move against them, and when they push them up against the border they will simply cross over to escape, just as they did when we pushed them up against the border.

The way to keep them from just shifting back and forth is to have sufficient troops on both sides of the border to trap them. The Pakistanis are doing their part. Should we bail and let them re-group in Afghanistan again?

[Roland99]

25. Pakistan is putting on a show, that's it.

You honestly think they're going to risk riling up the several million radical muslims in that region?

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. Oh, sure, the Pakistani people really WANT truck bombs going off

in their marketplaces.

The fact is, the radicals are vastly outnumbered by the general populace, and the general populace is PISSED at the radicals. The Pakistani army is moving against the radicals, the Taliban and AQ strongholds, and the people are supporting them as never before.

All we need to do to fuck it up is to not provide the anvil that the Pakistani army is hammering against. If we were to leave, letting the radicals back across the border into Afghanistan, then Pakistan would say "Well, WTF are we doing this for?" and go back to ceding the border regions to them - resulting in an overthrow of the Pakistani government either by the Army or the radicals or the ISI, because they'll have lost the support of the people.

Go ahead - play out the scenarios, and tell me even ONE which ends well for us.

[Roland99]

30. Trusting Pakistan and the ISI? That bought us a lot at Tora Bora, eh?

Seen this clip of Hersh on the Maddow Show recently?

http://rawstory.com/2009/11/hersh-obama-afghanistan/

"This is basically a war, at best, that's going to be a stalemate," continued Hersh. "And so Obama is just putting his foot down, and that's great. ... He's grabbing it and he hasn't been grabbing it until now."

...

"Eikenberry is simply, I think, reflecting a huge split," Hersh concluded, "because he's now splitting from the McChrystal counter-insurgency wing that's been dominated by Petraeus."

Hersh called his conclusion about Eikenberry a "heuristic guess," but it is supported by one online analysis which tracks Eikenberry's statements since 2007 and suggests that "General McChrystal is on a special mission based a specific philosophy of warfare and that General Eikenberry is performing his duty according to his current assignment with an ongoing evaluation of the various players and facts at hand."

"General Eikenberry is both a soldier and scholar of history and political science," this analysis concludes. "He knows the history of occupations that fail to deliver for the populace and he's telling us right now that the U.S. can't succeed with more military forces in a nation run by an illegitimate president who has been exposed for election fraud. More troops are not the solution."

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. Where do you get that I'm trusting the ISI?

Are you even aware that Pakistan has 20,000 troops in the Swat Valley - they've been conducting operations against the Taliban since last May, because for some reason the Taliban started trying to take direct control of Pakistani territory, setting off truck bombs, assassinating government officials - they were implicated in the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, you might recall. The government has overridden the ISI, and is conducting this fight despite their history - this is NOT Musharraf's Pakistan that allowed the Taliban in after Tora Bora.

Try to keep up on current events. It helps.

[John Q. Citizen]

48. How about this scenario? We support the Islamic militants and they drive out the USSR.

Our CIA is buddy buddy with them, and some of the CIA hire them to run heroin by air, get them training in South Florida, and one day they fell the twin towers. Opps!

Smart, eh?

These are the people you apparently want deciding our future. Well I don't.

Or are you saying that the American People really wanted the twin towers knocked down? Just like you are sarcastically saying that the Pakistani people want truck bombs going of in the market place?

Wait a minute. Are you suggesting it was irresponsible for the Soviets to leave Afghanistan, given the obvious threat of radical Islam they just walked away from and ignored?

What are you really trying to say, here? Because I don't understand.

What scenario are you claiming ends well for us?

[RaleighNCDUer]

63. Your lack of understanding is obvious - glad to see you admit it.

Your reply is such a confused mish mash that I really don't know what you are trying to say.

Try again tomorrow when you sober up.

[ShamelessHussy]

49. look who's talk'n

[inna]

7. Precisely. KR

[xultar]

10. BRAVO Dennis!

[XemaSab]

11. And whose name is on the roll as a "yea?"

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml

[orwell]

13. Don't confuse us with facts...

...not in the middle of the obligatory K-Worship.

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. Damn....hate those facts. Hate 'em.

I generally agree with Kucinich, and his other votes have been more sane, to me.

[Zodiak]

15. To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks

That is the wording of the bill you are cut and pasting a link to.....a vote cast three days after Sept. 11th.

No mention of Afghanistan in the bill nor DK's statement afterwards.

There is much more to an argument than the blind posting of a link.....and having a few of your ideological brethren posting snarky "don;t confuse us with facts" crap, which serves absolutely no purpose other than to make this site resemble romper-room more than a place of serious discussion.

[RetroLounge]

21. +1

:applause:

RL

[sabrina 1]

46. Thanks for presenting ACTUAL facts.

I cannot understand the hatred for Kucinich among so-called progressives. I've asked them many times exactly what issues they disagree with him on and have NEVER received an answer. Which I always considered to be very strange.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

55. A very thoughtful post

in a morass of childish bleating.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

56. A very thoughtful post

in a morass of childish bleating.

[slipslidingaway]

60. !!! Thanks n/t

[fascisthunter]

69. well done...

[druidity33]

28. that's from 2001

you know, when we were still hunting down Bin Laden and there were only 1,000 troops there.

But, whatever...

:eyes:

[reggie the dog]

33. he authorized going after those responsable for 911

The Taliban were not responsable.....

[democrank]

12. What a rare bird Kucinich is....

a truth teller in Washington.

[WeDidIt]

16. What a fucking piece of bullshit hypocritical bastard!

Kucinich is a piece of shit.

That fucker VOTED FOR THIS WAR!!!

He needs to sit down and shut the fuck up and let Barack clean up the mess he voted for.

[Flaneur]

17. In 2001, in the midst of war fever. Now, he opposes it.

Things have changed since 2001.

Kucinich does not to sit down and "shut the fuck up." He's an elected congressman and has every right to voice his opinion.

But scream and insult progressives all you want.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. Wouldn't ignoring "war fever" be the perfect instance of principles?

[bvar22]

18. Kucinich voted to apprehend the perpetrators of 9-11...

...NOT to militarily invade and occupy Afghanistan for decades.

...but you already know that. :thumbsdown:

[redqueen]

19. And those who voted for the IWR weren't really voting for war then, either, right?

[bvar22]

22. I don't know. Ask Hillary.

If she had voted against it, she would be President Clinton today.

HUGE difference between those votes,
but you already know that.

Thumbs down for the logical fallacy of False Equivalency :thumbsdown:

[redqueen]

24. LOL... right. (nt)

[reggie the dog]

35. Iraq war resolution

talked about invading Iraq, Kucinich voted for something that would go after the click of terrorists that did 911. IWR actually had nothing to do with the people that did 911, that is a big difference.

[redqueen]

39. Kucinich voted for something that allowed Bush to go after whoever he wanted,

in whatever manner he chose.

[reggie the dog]

57. no, it was to go after those responsable for 911, not anyone

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Some people just don't pay attention.

Probably still think Obama is anti-war. . .

Kucinich is basically a pacifist but like many pacifists he believes in going after anyone who attacks our country. That's known as self-defense. That's why he voted to send troops into AFghanistan -- to get Osama and al Qaeda, who were allegedly behind 9/11.

(In the same time frame, in the same period of anti-terrorist hysteria, Kucinich had the good sense to vote NAY on the Patriot Act. Did anyone else in Congress vote Nay on that?)

So we went into Afghanistan, Osama got away (or died) and Bush pulled out troops to go into Iraq.

Eight years later, Obama is sending more troops into Afghanistan. Why? After eight years, we should know that the only way to win in Afghanistan or Iraq is the same as the only way to win in Vietnam -- "nuke 'em back to the Stone Age." Anybody here want to play that option?

[Ignis]

38. Yeah, but a witch hunt is so much more fun, isn't it? (nt)

[reggie the dog]

34. when did he vote for this war?

I saw that he voted to use the military to go after the people that did 911, perhaps he wanted the army to go after rumsfeld, dickie boy and W...

[jefferson_dem]

40. Kucinich is a joke.

A one-man traveling carnival.

Mock and dismiss the little fella... That's all he deserves.

[fascisthunter]

70. no, you are

and ignorant to boot

[flvegan]

51. Such ignorance. n/t

[Greyhound]

58. *sniff* what's that smell...

Same BS, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7136360">different thread...

[WeDidIt]

65. Lieberman is far more reliable on the big votes than Kucinich

and that says a lot more about Kucinich than it does LIEberman, IMO.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

27. Kucinich sure has a pretty wife.

That's enough for me.

[reggie the dog]

31. hit the ball out of the park again hasn't he

[MissDeeds]

36. Dennis really gets it

K&R :kick:

[chill_wind]

42. K & R.

[Gregorian]

43. Even an elementary student would have the brains to ask this question.

So why aren't we asking it?

I was talking to someone yesterday about this. I mentioned that we should have an Afghan vote on our presence there. If we could get a legit election, I guarantee the answer would be that we be gone. There is a real problem with Taliban. They're kind of like wild Republicans with guns roaming the country. And I can guarantee again that the answer those Afghans give us is that they want our support. I don't think we need the kind of military presence we have in order to solve the Taliban problem.

But what the hell do I know? Probably very little.

[ShortnFiery]

44. KnR eom

[David Zephyr]

45. K&R.

!

[John Q. Citizen]

47. Dennis makes some very good points about our policy.

[Turborama]

50. How does Dennis definitively know that "They want to be saved from us"?

This is a genuine question as I have read and heard from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=499756&mesg_id=500113">several sources quite the contrary.

[phasma ex machina]

52. K&R nt

[amborin]

53. Exactly!

[flvegan]

54. I love how the Kucinich bashers flock to these threads.

The politicians they hold so dear suck so fucking hard they have to try to tear down the top tier of the true dems.

Fucking pathetic, the lot of them.

[OnyxCollie]

64. +1.

[AndrewP]

68. But, he isn't in lock step with their hero!

[fascisthunter]

72. yeee-up

they do it to get a charge from us, because they can't debate using facts, so they make idiotic statements about the man, like a child on a school bus sticking out its tongue.

[Individualist]

73. They don't realize how pathetically predictable and boring they've become

[slipslidingaway]

59. knr nt

[berni_mccoy]

61. Afghanistan agreed to go to war WITH the U.S. to take out the Taliban.

It's called the Northern Alliance.

[TexasObserver]

62. Recommend

[TheWebHead]

66. that's not what the Asia Foundation found polling the people of Afghanistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/opinion/13iht-edinderfurth.html

[Egnever]

71. No its not at all what the afghan people think for the most part

But cause deniss said it it must be so dont cha know. The wilfull ignorance on this side of the isle is every bit as frightening as it is on the other side. Thanks for the link.

[earth mom]

75. Go Dennis! nt