Verbal abuse is at least as harmful as physical abuse

[mudesi]

Constant verbal abuse during childhood is extremely psychologically damaging. The amount of ignorance and misinformation on this subject is alarming to say the least. I am not referring to the occasional put down or name calling due to a moment of anger or frustration. I am speaking of frequent put downs and verbal assaults on a regular basis.

I posted a link to this book yesterday, and lo and behold, Mr. Baldwin has brought the issue to light not 24 hours later.

A child's self esteem can be permanently damaged if subjected to constant verbal assaults, whether the assaults be in jest or whether the assaults are subtle, or whether they are out in the open. The usual meme that inadequate parents give for their verbal assaults is that they're doing it to "keep them in line" or that it's how they were raised and there's "nothing wrong with them". But, of course, there is something wrong with them, because they are verbally abusing their own children.

While physical abuse can be seen, verbal abuse is often overlooked because there are no physical scars. But the emotional scars are very real and very damaging.

Note that this entire OP is not my opinion. These are facts that have been known in the psychiatric community for decades now. If you don't believe that verbal abuse is as serious as physical or sexual abuse, then you are simply ignorant of the facts and need to educate yourself on the subject.

This book is a good place to start.


EDIT

I want to reiterate that this OP is not my opinion. Far too many people here want to discount facts simply because they have opinions based on ignorance that don't agree with those facts. The facts I have posted here are as real as the facts on global warming. The vast majority of the psychiatric community have come to these conclusions over years of research and case studies.

Ignorance is not knowledge.

[Colobo]

1. My mom has been verbally abused by my father for 26 years

I know how bad it is.

[MADem]

2. I imagine this is to do with the Baldwin business.

All I know about it, I have read here.

Everyone is outraged, but I still don't know exactly what the guy did. He called his pre-teen kid a pig, but no one has bothered to fill the story out with any context at all so I know if I should pick up my torch and pitchfork, or leave them in the barn.

Does he do it all the time? Was the kid being a pig, either selfishly or otherwise? Is he an evil baaaastid who should be stoned and forced to go live on an island with Don Imus? What?

How many people know about this story, but cannot say with any remote degree of guesstimation, how many died in Iraq this week?

I wonder about our priorities.

[pitohui]

5. sounds like to me he was worried sick and freaked out

an 11 year old should NOT be refusing to accept phone calls at regularly scheduled times from her own father, that is the kind of passive aggressive game playing that can turn deadly if the dad assumes she didn't check in because she is being stubborn and she is really in some kind of trouble

yeah, he sounded like a real asshole, but it sounds like he was worried sick too by all the crap

who among us has never freaked out from worry and said ugly things we regretted later?

[JNelson6563]

95. Another thing to keep in mind

We do not necessarily know all that may have gone on. For all we know there could've been many incidents that were handled with grace and diplomacy and then the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

I know, I speak from experience on how one not so well handled moment eclipses the countless well handled ones. *sigh*

Julie

[butterfly77]

112. I agree...

[spoony]

127. Yeah that's why he kept mentioning "me me me"

because he was so worried about her :eyes:

I don't get people defending this hot-headed jerk.

[bouwob1]

7. to many

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[Divernan]

17. Here's what I posted in an earlier thread today.

Go to the link, as directed and you can listen to the actual tape. This was a one time thing - not repeated verbal abuse.

Fri Apr-20-07 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Part of "The Rest of the Story"
Edited on Fri Apr-20-07 08:00 AM by Divernan
from the OP's link:
Baldwin's lawyer, Vicki Greene, told TMZ, "Whatever happened yesterday was sealed and confidential. What you're telling me you've got you shouldn't have."

UPDATE: A friend of Alec Baldwin's just contacted TMZ to say that the actor called Ireland last week and apologized for his outburst. The friend added that Ireland is the most important thing in the world to Alec and that he is frustrated because over the last six years, Kim has "tried everything" to alienate Ireland from him.

UPDATE: Alec Baldwin's spokesperson released the following statement to the TV show "EXTRA": "In the best interest of the child, Alec will do what the mother is pathologically incapable of doing ... keeping his mouth shut and obeying the court order. The mother and her lawyer leaked this sealed material in violation of a court order. Although Alec acknowledges that he should have used different language in parenting his child, everyone who knows him privately knows what he has been put through for the past six years."


I listened to the whole tape, and was left with the impression that Baldwin has been fighting for years to keep in regular contact with his daughter and that his daughter has repeatedly refused to participate in phone calls (which are scheduled well in advance, as per legal agreement). Baldwin told her she was hurting and humiliating him by this rejection. As someone who's single-parented 3 kids through this 11 year-old, preteen phase, I empathize with him. I think his daughter is lucky to have a father who is willing to go through a lot of hell to keep in touch with her and involved in her life. I'll go get the link to the tape, and add it on edit.

On Edit:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_en_mo/people_...

This link takes you to the story, and on the left is the link to listen to the "video" which is the voicemail recording which Bassinger's legal team released to the press in violation of a court order, because the court wished to protect the child's privacy. Bassinger's lawyers should be held in contempt of court for this game playing.

I don't particularly think gossip articles belong on DU, but the OP is clearly interested in smearing Baldwin because he is a passionate liberal commentator.

Alert | Add to my Journal

[MADem]

59. I couldn't get your link to work but found another that I think is the same.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070420/en_afp/entertainmentusfilm_070420164623

A HuffPo commentator seems to think this is overblown as well:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacy-parker-aab/who-among-us-can-judge-al_b_46388.html
.........The simple fact is that we are not part of his family and we do not know enough about him to judge his fitness as a father. While the language in the message was rough at times, you and I will never know how to truly measure that threat. We don't know his bite from his bark. We don't know what the war is like between him and Ms. Basinger. I listen to that tape (thank you Today Show--that's what I get for falling asleep with the TV on) and I hear a man locked in a dynamic, unable to control his daughter's behavior, and fuming from every hole in his head.

Does that mean he's controlling? Maybe. Does that mean he's angry? Yeah, sure. Passionate? Maybe that, too.

Does Mr. Baldwin have a history of violence that makes me fear for his daughter's life? Well, as far as I'm aware of, no. That is what the hearing is for.

Bottom line? We don't know enough to judge. All we know is that one side went public. And I'm sad that the media have once again been glad participants in broadcasting tapes and accusations for someone else's tactical gain--gains that may benefit the participants, but will not benefit the public good.

Personally, I think about the scraps of my conversations, if set apart, that would paint horrifying pictures of the state of my relationships. Now, think of your marriage. Think of your parents. Who is the loved one that drives you craziest? How well do you think you'd fair if transcripts of your phone calls and emails got broadcast all over the nation? I'm sure Professor Smart could come along and analyze the text and divine all sorts of true meaning, but human beings are always bigger than any mere text they produce, no matter how slaved over, how close to perfect reflection of their thought and mood at the time..........

[lukasahero]

72. "This was a one time thing - not repeated verbal abuse. "

And you know that how? Quoting his best friend and his spokesperson just isn't enough to convince me.

[pitohui]

3. oh for the love of!

anyone who puts name-calling on the same level as physical harm or rape is out of their freaking minds

verbal abuse is unpleasant but every parents -- EVERY parent -- is guilty of it, at some point people get stressed and words are a relatively safe way to vent anger compared to using fists

my parents called me far worse things than "pig," but fortunately for all concerned there were no tape recorders running

anyone who thinks verbal abuse is as serious as physical or sexual abuse must live a very sheltered life, is all i can say -- there is no way that name-calling can be put on the same level as beatings, rape, shakings, even being killed

yesterday in my parish (county) a man shot his son and wife to death and also shot one of his daughters, right in the street, don't know about you, but i'm fairly sure i would prefer alec baldwin and kim bassinger as my parents no matter how verbally abuse compared to being shot dead on the street

your chances of healing from being called a pig are a lot higher than your chances of healing from being shot in the face

that is all


victims of verbal abuse have no idea how outrageous they sound when they try to compare their circumstance to victims of physical or sexual abuse, it ain't a contest, there are no points being awarded for self pity

[mudesi]

4. Ignorance

Ignorance is a horrible thing.

>>anyone who thinks verbal abuse is as serious as physical or sexual abuse must live a very sheltered life, is all i can say -- there is no way that name-calling can be put on the same level as beatings, rape, shakings, even being killed<<

You are categorically wrong. The psychological effects of verbal abuse are the same as the other types of abuse.

[pitohui]

11. i'm not the one who is ignorant my friend

the lasting effects of being shot dead through the face are a lot more lasting than the effects of being called a pig

if we have no sense of proportion, then we can't be taken seriously, because our claims are not serious in the first place

you posted above that the effects of verbal abuse were as serious as the effects of physical and sexual abuse, which is a damned lie -- have someone call you a name, then have someone rape you and see how long you take to recover from each stressor

what's wrong w. people? a little logic would be nice!

[hippiechick]

14. ... misinformed, then, perhaps.

:( You're lucky you didn't have to live through it.

[mudesi]

15. Just because you say so doesn't make you right

Do some research before posting outright falsehoods.

Verbal abuse can be just as damaging, and in some cases more damaging than physical and sexual abuse. These are facts and you saying otherwise doesn't change them.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pugee]

46. You are comparing apples and oranges

Calling someone a name vs killing someone? come on! That is beginnings for one abuse and an ending to another (although very often verbal escalates into physical abuse. I would think that to compare, one would have to include how much suicide (the possible worst ending to verbal abuse) vs killing (the possible worst ending to physical abuse)compared. And they are both dead.

I worked for a few years with abused women and EVERY single one said that they would rather have the physical abuse than the verbal. The verbal abuse left scars and emotions that would not heal. These women included many who had been beaten and left for dead with their children present, lost teeth, become paralyzed, been locked in freezers and rooms for hours. And from all walks of life, many had no resources, but, some were doctors and/or wives of prominent businessmen or clergy in the community.

[Amelie]

135. That dad probably called his kid "pig" at some point before

He shot him; probably worse. There is no way he just woke up one morning and decided to shoot his child. I guarantee there was, at least, verbal abuse going on in that house before the kid got shot.

You might not think name calling is the same universe as killing someone, but it is a starting point. Anyone who has been in a physically abusive relationship knows that.

[JuniperLea]

143. I've known kids who were so traumatized by the verbal abuse

They shot their own damn selves in the head! So, yes! Sometimes it IS a better option for some kids!!

You cannot make such blanket statements. Not all kids are alike. Not all kids can take that kind of abuse! Sure there are some who let it roll off their backs and deal with it, but there are many others who do not.

Whenever I see an "always", "everyone", "every time", "never", etc., I know I'm dealing with someone who hasn't thought it through.

Pick up the brains of a dead child off the floor, then tell me he wasn't abused horribly with words!!! Absurd.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. You keep saying that

I understand that it's your trump card to refer people to the mountain of "research," however dubious, as if that's argument in itself. Whether such "research" has any value is another matter. There were mountains of research on eugenics, after all. You must be mistaking me for someone who thinks the existence of research is enough to establish a point. In fact, when your pal there actually pointed us to a page rather than squawking about all the research, I discovered that there were rather, ahem, serious disagreements about the prevalence of verbal abuse among your mountains of research.

"How common is verbal abuse?

Reports are mixed. A 1991 study at the University of New Hampshire found that 63 percent of more than 3,000 American parents surveyed reported one or more cases of verbal aggression toward children in their homes. However, a 1997 Child Protective Services study determined that only 6 percent of all child abuse cases involved "emotional maltreatment" (of which verbal abuse is the most common form). The fact that signs of verbal abuse are harder to recognize and prove than signs of physical abuse may account for the seemingly low number of "official" verbal abuse cases."

Well, I guess that's one conclusion to draw! I appreciate a scientist who finds nothing, and concludes that the difficulty of finding something is prima facie evidence of its prevalence!

But that's a small point, i suppose. Much easier to point to a stack of papers and say "Look there!" Your self-help book is hilarious, by the way, a real operation in schlocking "trauma" to know-nothings and narcissists.

:rofl:

[mudesi]

50. Who said anything about prevalence?

I never even mentioned how prevalent verbal abuse is. All I have ever done is state the facts about the psychological effects of verbal abuse. These facts have been studied and researched for decades and the consensus is that verbal abuse can be just as harmful as physical abuse and in some cases, is even more harmful.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

151. and you did a yeoman's job, Lynyrd.

My biggest problem with verbal abuse (compared to physical) - no one else can spot it easily. The effect is corrosive, the pain is hard to heal. abused kids, spouses, can suffer for years without a hint to the public.

[BlooInBloo]

16. It's a lost fight. The i-wanna-be-a-victim-mob is VERY large, numerically...

... they're simply gonna wash right over you - like the squiddies over the mech in Matrix 3.

The mob wants to be a victim, the mob WILL BE a victim.

[pitohui]

20. obviously so, a child in my community was KILLED by his dad yesterday

but obviously it's far more horrid of mr. baldwin to leave a nasty message on his daughter's voicemail

i despair of the human race, people STINK!

[lukasahero]

83. You do realize that all physical abuse

has elements of verbal abuse, don't you? Perhaps if we paid attention to verbal abuse, physical abuse wouldn't be able to escalate enough to leave a child dead.

[supernova]

88. I so agree with this

Thank you lukasahero.

[NashVegas]

81. You Have No Idea

What do you think helps keep our psychiatric and therapy industries busy?

[electron_blue]

104. compare physical and verbal abuse, not murder and verbal abuse

The experts would vehemently disagree with you - the effects of verbal abuse are more insidious than physical abuse. And please don't speak for all parents, saying we all have verbally abused our children at one point or another. It's not true.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibertyorDeath]

24. This is not an either or thing

verbal abuse is very serious it does not break bones
it breaks your psychology.

To be very clear
It is not about name calling it is way way beyond name calling

It is a systematic verbal assault on a persons mind on a daily basis over
the course of YEARS.

Only someone that has not experienced it would refer to it as
"name calling"

It is not.

This is not an either or thing

[BlooInBloo]

65. Tell that to the OP.

[mudesi]

75. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=714661&mesg_id=715384

[BlooInBloo]

77. No one denies that some people *think* being yelled at is just as bad as being raped...

... (just for example) What's under debate is whether or not it's actually SO.

[mudesi]

78. 'Some people'?

You mean the vast majority licensed and trained behaviorists and psychologists? I wonder whether or not you believe global warming is happening just because "some scientists" (the vast majority) say it is.

[BlooInBloo]

79. Show me a link that says the "vast majority" of *scientists* think that...

... verbal abuse is "at least as bad" as physical abuse?

Thanks!

[mudesi]

84. Take a psychology course (nm)

[woo me with science]

102. nice try. nt

[mudesi]

107. It's your choice to be willfully ignorant

I can only do so much. I linked to a book that you might find enlightening, if you so choose to take it out of the library and educate yourself. I linked to another article that stated, in black and white, my assertion. (here)

Most importantly, there are people in this very thread who say they were verbally abused and, by their very own experiences say they would've rather been physically abused. (Like this one, or this one, or this one)

If you can't open your mind, even a little, there's not much more I can say.

[woo me with science]

114. I should clarify.

I wrote somewhere on here that I do believe persistent verbal degradation of a child will have negative effects. I believe there is some good, controlled research to that effect. However, people piling on Alec Baldwin, knowing nothing about the overall quality of his relationship with his daughter, is extremely naive.

People can survive being called a pig by people who love them without being permanently scarred.

The emotion over this topic is excessive, and it reflects a hysteria about child abuse that is fueled by the victim industry in this country. There are many, many people being harmed by an attitude that teaches them that things that don't really have to be devastating, ARE. That is the tragedy. It is a real problem in this country.

Human beings are tremendously resilient and have been for centuries. They are also flawed creatures who blow up and say hurtful things to one another. This pop psychology equation of harsh words with rape or physical violence, in general, is silly. There is a busy contingent of bad therapists and hack writers, pop psychologists, and talk show hosts who train people to consider themselves eternally wounded by incidents that people would have shrugged off decades ago.

Of course constant verbal degradation of children is not a good thing.

But learning to claim victimhood and perceive one's insults as permanent and damaging to the soul is just as dangerous to young people in our culture today--I would say even MORE destructive in the long run.

[noiretextatique]

150. aside from the baldwin drama

"pop" psychology, notwithstanding, not only is constant verbal denigration of a child "not a good thing," it is a very damaging thing, emotionally, it could cause permanent damage. the only thing destructive about that reality is the humans keep perpertrating violence in various forms against each other, particularly against their children. and they keep making excuses for doing it.

humans are resilient, but it's time we stopped fooling ourselves about some of our horrible behaviors.

[woo me with science]

188. I completely agree with you that children should be treated well.

What I find offensive is when full-grown adults cling to the victim label and pretend that they deserve pity for things that happened decades ago. It is a disgusting practice when you look at the history of humankind and the great triumphs made in the past by people who endured horrible things. When was the last time you ever heard a Holocaust survivor whining or blaming her problems on her history?

This is the first time in history that victim status has come to be more highly valued by a culture than rising BEYOND what happened to you. It is a poisonous message for children who have experienced such things, to tell them that they are irrevocably damaged and crippled as a result of it. In most cases, that simply does not have to be true.

[woo me with science]

86. bwah!

"You mean the vast majority licensed and trained behaviorists and psychologists?"

Nonsense. Unfortunately, there is a huge professional trauma industry in this country, and hack therapy programs churn out thousands of poorly trained "therapists" every year, many of whom go into the profession after they themselves have been sucked into the victim mindset in their own therapy.

Because of the insurance crisis in this country, HMO's are only too happy to hire these hacks, because they cost less than academically trained psychologists and psychiatrists.

However, every academically trained psychologist I know is very concerned about the poison of pop psychology and the victim culture, and the legions of bad "therapists" who hawk their books on Oprah and train their clients to feel sorry for themselves.

[KittyWampus]

87. What ignorance. You think verbal abuse is being yelled at. You just negated your credibility.

[BlooInBloo]

94. Dammit. Why didn't somebody tell me I had credibility?

:rofl:

You guys are awesome! The words "just for example" simply don't exist for you.

:rofl:

[woo me with science]

189. lol. nt

[BlooInBloo]

6. It comes from the everybody-wants-to-be-a-victim thing....

... They want it so bad, they're happy to minimize actual beatings and actual rapes and such, just so THEY can be a victim too.

[pitohui]

12. i'm afraid i agree, blooinbloo EOM

.

[treestar]

42. Oh baloney, nobody wants to be a victim of anything,

And it's not that black and white. You are only considering the extreme of physical abuse (being shot in the face - now how often does that happen?) If is possible to be say, spanked with a belt four or five times in your life (physical abuse) and have that be not as bad as being verbally abused every day.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

62. "Mr know-it-all" is verbal abuse

YOU are the abuser here, Bloo just expressed an opinion.

[bling bling]

71. Mr. know-it-all shows up in 75% of all threads going off on people.

I guess I'm just tired of people who try to make themselves feel like hot shit by going off on everybody else.

If that's not acceptable to you, whatever. I don't care what you think.

[sandnsea]

74. No one can make you abuse

You are responsible for what you do with your words and your hands.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

63. ACK! I've been abused! Abuser! ABUSER!

:rofl:

[woo me with science]

115. Hey, I hear you can get SSI for that! nt

[NashVegas]

99. Man, I Hate to Burst Your Bubble

But as someone who experienced the trifecta (sexual, long-term verbal abuse & physical violence), there is no one form of abuse more harmful than others. It all ties in.

These days, I assure you, I'm no one's victim. And you are doing in this thread, exactly what you are accusing others of: minimizing.

[noiretextatique]

131. acknowledging one thing does not diminish another

i've seen and experienced the damage caused by repeated verbal abuse. in my case, it did not lead to physical abuse, but my cousins weren't as lucky.
my father denigrated women, in general, and his daughters, in particular to a degree that undermined our self-esteem and self-worth.
my cousins' mother called them every unspeakable name in the book from the time they were born, and looked the other way when her boyfriend physically abused them.

it's not about "being a victim"...it's about acknowledging what happens in your life, and creating strategies to deal it.
verbal abuse is not about "name-calling" either...it's about systematic, and continuous verbal denigration of another person or a class of people.
systematic and continuous...like torture.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. You're wrong.

Does verbal abuse do any long-term harm?

Yes. Research shows that abused children are more likely to:

•become victims of abuse later in life
•become abusive themselves
•become depressed and self-destructive later in life

http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/verbalabuse

[woo me with science]

101. Well, there are a couple of issues here.

One, persistent verbal degradation probably does have some negative effects, but that is not the same thing as a fallible, human parent losing control occasionally and saying things like Alec Baldwin did. People have survived childhoods with hotheaded but loving parents for centuries. It is only in these past few decades that childhood has been redefined by some as a time of extreme frailty and vulnerability to permanent damage based on an insult.

The problem with the abuse therapy industry in this country is that clients are trained to take any isolated incident, scream "ABUSE!" and label the person who spoke the words as "an abuser," thereby inoculating themselves from any responsibility for the interaction and dismissing anything from the other party that predated the incident. I have never seen such whining and distortion of normal, heated human interactions as I have with women (and some men) who have been trained by hack therapists to recognize "verbal abuse." An academic I know has commented that it usually takes a lot of hard work to "deprogram" people who have been in that type of therapy so that they begin to see people empathetically again, as fallible human beings, instead of quick-sorting them into facile categories of "abuser" and "abused."

That kind of mindset does not make for healthy relationships. People who are trained to do this by their therapists soon start alienating others, because they become so self-righteously eager to play the trump card of abuse.

Another issue in the research is that so much of it is poisoned by methodological problems. Many of the participants in recent research on abuse were people who were sucked into the bogus repressed memory nonsense of the 80's and 90's. Nowadays, many academic researchers try hard to exclude these people from their projects, because their memories of abuse are not likely to be true. They are perhaps the group most likely to hold these diseased attitudes. They are also highly likely to self-select into the profession of victim therapy through fly-by-night master's programs in counseling, therapy, or social work.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bling bling]

47. Your response is further proof that this is an important discussion.

Not that I needed further proof.

[Madspirit]

51. self delete

[Zuiderelle]

98. Comparing verbal abuse's effect to being shot in the face, is like saying that rape is not so bad...

compared to murder.

It's clear that you also are under the misconception that verbal abuse is acceptable. I had all three kinds of abuse growing up, and each was destructive. It's really impossible to compare them, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the physical abuse was probably the least destructive, and given the constant nature of it, the verbal abuse was the most.

[Big Blue Marble]

125. Actually at least in my case, you are very wrong!

I was sexually, physically and verbally abused by my parents and I can say over forty years later that it was
the verbal abuse that has left me with significantly more trauma than either the sexual or physical abuse.
The pain and fear of the severe physical abuse has fade over time. My sense of self and self esteem were and is far more damaged by the words and those words still haunt me today. It was the physical and emotional abuse that has cost me the
most and left me the most unprepared for life.

[ends_dont_justify]

165. So we're out of our mind? Not only do you support verbal abuse, you manipulate us with it

You wouldn't use verbally abusive comments if you didn't believe it wouldn't have an affect on your opposition :hi:

[meldroc]

8. Verbal abuse is horrible.

It's one thing to get an occasional nasty remark or name calling. But if you're in the typical bullying situation, you'll get verbal abuse constantly. Over and over, again and again. It wears you down, and is very emotionally traumatic.

Personally, I'd rather be physically assaulted. Physical pain is transient. Physical wounds heal. Emotional wounds fester.

[pitohui]

13. how dare you?

you say-- Physical pain is transient. Physical wounds heal. Emotional wounds fester.

i am not aware how the physical wound of being shot dead, as happened in my community yesterday, can be healed

words are cheap and can be forgotten but physical destruction of the body and the life is forever


i'm sure every victim here of physical or sexual abuse would be happy to trade places w. you

it wore you down, did it? wow, how do you think the kids felt who used to get beaten every few days, not to mention those who got sexually molested at regular opportunities by "funny" relatives

verbal abuse -- it's name-calling, people! -- don't compare to physical or sexual abuse, it just doesn't

you wouldn't dare to look me in the eye and say you would be happy to be beaten as i was beaten, i'm calling bullshit because it is bullshit

you are privileged to grow up in a time when it isn't acceptable to beat children, so you can wallow in "verbal abuse" and enjoy the feeling of being a victim without ever had your body at risk, it's a bit disgusting if you ask me

[supernova]

22. You're ignorance

on this subject is revealing.

Verbal abuse is A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN NAME CALLING.

Verbal abuse includes:

- Starting arguments for no reason whatsoever other than the abuser felt like lashing out;

- Underming the self-esteem of the victim (you're worthless, you'll never amount to anything, you're ugly and no one wants you)

- Overly controlling (wanting to limit access to perfectly decent friends as well as other family members), limited time away from the abuser and must report back as soon as possible, if not another tirade is in the offing.

What's different about it from normal run of the mill name-calling is this is all day everyday. There is no letup, no relief, and no way for the victim to get away from the abuser (so they are conditioned to think)

In short, verbal abuse is about what all abuse is about: WANTING CONTROL of another equal human being.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Well - that's obviously as bad as being made to stand on heat registers until the skin blisters off!

You convinced me.

Sheesh.

[supernova]

30. Did that happen to you?

Genuinely curious.

[BlooInBloo]

33. Not allowed to say who it happened to - sorry.

[supernova]

43. I'm truly sorry that happened to you

That's horrible and I feel for you in that. Would it be possible for you to do the same for others?

[BlooInBloo]

54. Now you're just making shit up - lol!

[supernova]

58. If that comforts you to think that

go right ahead.

[BlooInBloo]

I wasn't *un*comfortable before... but... okaaay.... Does it help to know that I was a counselor...

... a loooong time ago?

Sheesh - you TRY to get people going the right direction, and they just REFUSE :rofl:

"NO! I want to be an incorrect drama queen!" :rofl:

[spoony]

128. And what are the long term damages from all abuse? Psychological damage.

Same end, different means. Abuse is abuse, abuse is wrong, splitting hairs about which sort is worse is stupid.

[pitohui]

26. sorry, even LOTS of name-calling is not as bad as being shot dead

this is becoming silly, the OP made a claim which is simply untrue, regular and repeated verbal abuse can in no way be as threatening to one's life and happiness as regular and repeated physical abuse which can end in the child being MURDERED

proportion, people

i'm sure verbal abuse does erode self esteem and relationships, but it in no freaking way can compare to being repeatedly and savagely beaten, it can in no way compare to be regularly molested or raped, it can in no way compare to being shot dead in the street

the choice is not "well, verbal abuse takes place all the time but physical abuse only happened one time on a blue moon in 1958," physical abusers are repeat offenders because that's how they deal with things -- with their fists or in some cases escalating to killing the wife and child

to be so envious of someone who was actually severely injured to the point that their life was cut short -- to be in a contest with this young boy and to pretend that verbal abuse is just as bad as having his life taken away by his dad in the single digit ages -- well, i'm sorry, it's just disgusting self-pitying behavior

sometimes it ain't all about you

[supernova]

34. What's with the competition?

Oh so physical abuse gets to claim the greater victim badge?

Whatever happened to we all help each other with whatever scars we do have? Whatever happened to seeing a person in pain, whether it's from emotional abuse or physical abuse, and having a heart for them.

Sheez, is right.

No one is competiting here, least of all me.

I would think someone with physcial abuse would be among the first to understand the control issues abusers have.

Did you know that emotional abuse often escalates into physical abuse? It does, if you don't do something about.

Just for the record, 12 years ago I left an emotionally abusive marriage when I did precisely because I was afraid it would escalate into physical abuse. The fact that I honestly didn't know was enough for me.

And to filter down to today, I don't tolerate ANYONE in my sphere who would call me a pig! Name calling, anger management issues, rage, I'm outta there and I don't look back.

[pitohui]

41. the original poster started the competition

the lie was posted, in the title of this thread, that verbal abuse "is at least" as bad as physical and sexual abuse

i'm sorry that's bullshit and any honest person knows it's bullshit

i just like accuracy and honesty, that's all, it's a little failing of mine

[supernova]

52. I don't think of it

as a competition. I really don't.

Each individual has a story to tell. Some of it painful, some of it beautiful, some of it sorrowful.

Each individual's story is unique to that individual. And from where I stand, must be honored as such.

Btw, my story is much more interesting than a marriage gone wrong. But that's a story for another time.


What I got out of the OP was that the emotionally abused have suffered also.

You cannot truely begin to heal unless you are willing to see the pain in anothers' life as they see it.

[mudesi]

56. Stating what the majority of the psychiatric community concludes....

...is not "competition".

[endarkenment]

85. Do you have evidence that the majority

of the psychiatric community concludes that verbal abuse is as least as bad as physical abuse?

[bobbolink]

48. The level of ignorance is amazing, no?

No wonder there are so many in pain, and right here on DU, too!

If we want to have a "competition", the emotional damage is even worse. For one very clear reason.... emotional abuse always makes the victim doubt themselves. NOBODY walks away from emotional abuse with their core self intact.

Even with children, they can see for themselves that their physically abusing parents have someting very wrong with them. They can see that other children don't get beaten that way. At some point, they are able to put the blame where it belongs--on the abuser.

No so with emotional abuse.... it's murky and unclear, so the victim, child or adult (unless they are socio-pathic, like some national leaders we could name) ALWAYS blame themselves, at least partially. That self-blame doesn't go away by magic.

"Whatever happened to we all help each other with whatever scars we do have? Whatever happened to seeing a person in pain, whether it's from emotional abuse or physical abuse, and having a heart for them."

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! :hug:

[endarkenment]

53. No one is competing here?

The OP initiated the thread as a competition between the horrors of verbal abuse and the horrors of physical abuse.

This thread is in turn competing for "stupidest post of the day".

I am verbally abusing this thread. I am hoping that it gets physically abused by the moderators. Only physical abuse of threads can have the sort of permanent effect I'm looking for.

[noiretextatique]

138. verbal abuse may lead to suicide

no one, except you, has equated murder with "name-calling."

[Morereason]

178. There is something seriously wrong with your comparison and attitude friend

I was lurking and reading this thread, but I just have to comment. How can you consider yourself a counselor with that huge chip on your shoulder. Stop trying to use extreme, inapproapriate comparisons to shoot others down. Leave these folks alone.

[countryjake]

32. Is this a "degree of abuse" contest?

I'm very sorry you were mistreated in your life, but your opinion cannot discount what most who've also suffered have provided to the study of parental abuse, the lifelong damaging effects of such abuse, and conclusions drawn to solve and prevent the after-effects associated with the problem.

Unfortunately, you are not privileged to be the only one who has experience on the subject.

[pitohui]

44. yes, the OP made it a contest w. his claim that verbal abuse was "at least as bad" as physical abuse

how do people open a thread without seeing the title?

a comparison was made by the OP and that comparison is a breath-taking lie

[mudesi]

64. It is not a 'claim'

It is the consensus of the vast majority of psychiatrists and behavioral scientists.

Edit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=714661&mesg_id=715384

[countryjake]

69. I'm referring to your "How dare you?" response to meldroc...

You really have no idea, whatsoever, what others in this thread may have experienced in their own lives or the severity of their personal damage.

It is quite impossible to "look me in the eye" in any response on this board and your attempt to make this discussion about your self, by jumping on others who may have been drawn into the thread out of concern, due to THEIR life experience and knowledge on the subject, does NOT constitute a rational or productive debate.

[BlooInBloo]

57. Yes - "verbal abuse" people claim it's just as bad as being beaten, raped, what-have-you...

... They're specifically making it a contest, for the express purpose of being big a victim as possible.

[countryjake]

96. What "verbal abuse" people?

So if I have an opinion on this thread which leans one way or another, that may make me a "verbal abuse" person, purposefully trying to appear victimized?

This is a discussion board, not a playground or football game.

[Karenina]

105. Two points about verbal abuse...

When one is physically abused, there's often a mark to prove the veracity of the victim's claims. Not so with verbal abuse.

Those who have been physically abused can grow large enough or become strong enough to return the favor, often effectively ending the manifestation. Verbal abuse often strips the victim of defenses - permanently and the abuser NEVER STOPS.

Abuse is abuse is abuse, physical or psychic. It's NOT a contest of victimization, rather BOTH are things with devastating consequences which we ALL would do well to recognize and understand.

[Zuiderelle]

118. Wow, really good post.

And you're right. When I was old enough and strong enough, I refused to take the physical abuse anymore, and it stopped. But the verbal abuse still goes on to this day (though thankfully to a much smaller degree).

[BlooInBloo]

123. The OP started the not-a-contest.

[Zuiderelle]

109. You need to stop using the "shot dead" example. So few cases of physical abuse end that way.

I speak from experience, and I say that the verbal abuse I experienced as a child was much worse than the physical abuse, even though the physical abuse was horrible. You do NOT know what you are talking about.

If I could right now, I would look you in the eye and say that if I could change one thing about my childhood (and no more than one), I would eliminate the verbal abuse. It is THAT which I remember the most, and which affected me the most.

[Progressive_In_NC]

110. It's a fine line in your argument there

Because sexual abuse is also emotional and to some extent verbal. The act itself, maybe not. But the follow up intimidation to keep it quiet.

My mom verbally abused my dad for years. YEARS. Not just name calling but the tearing down emotionally of a man to cover her own shortcomings. My dad eventually became very sick, and the doctor himself said that stress was the cause of it. Hmmm I wonder where that stress came from.

I was beaten with a belt by my mom, across the face, across the back. Uncontrollable rage, several times a week. Getting a B on my report card guaranteed me three beatings a week for six weeks until the next report card. Not doing chores in the order she thought I should (even though I was doing the chores at the time), more of the same.

But as a child, I preferred the beatings to the verbal abuse. The words tore me up more than getting hit. I personally would have rather been hit than to be told I wasn't loved in a vile and hateful manner. At seven, eight, nine, ten there is no internal computer that can compensate for the hateful words.

Thankfully, my saint of a dad finally one day stood up for us all and forced my mom to go get help. Five years of therapy for the abuse that she endured as a child and our family is healing now. Unfortunately, it destroyed my dad's health in the process of getting there.

[Zuiderelle]

113. You sound like me.

:hug: (but reverse the mom and dad in my situation)

[woo me with science]

122. Namecalling itself is probably not as damaging as

the IDEA that namecalling is devastating to people. Unfortunately, people are trained now (by media, bad therapists, pop psychology) to BELIEVE that abusive words can wound them in soul-damaging ways and affect them for the rest of their lives.

The belief system of victimhood is often much more damaging than the namecalling itself, I fear.

[noiretextatique]

140. systematic and continuous abuse that happens to be verbal

is not "name-calling."

[woo me with science]

168. If you read my other posts,

you will see that I am very much against SYSTEMATIC and CONTINUOUS verbal abuse. However, the definition of verbal abuse has been broadened to a ludicrous extent for some in this discussion.

[Karenina]

154. "Name-calling" was strictly verboten

in my family. The level of psychic violence was MUCH MORE SUBTLE than such "crass" outbursts and exhibitions of a lack of control or ability to communicate in an "appropriate" manner. All that "propriety" masked the deadly poison.

You seem intent, antfarm, upon blaming the victim. Please correct me if my perception is wrong.

[woo me with science]

169. "Subtle" psychic violence

That's a fascinating concept to me. Can you give examples? When did you first realize you were a victim of subtle psychic violence?

Have you talked to your parents about this? How did they respond, or what do you think they would say in response to this description of their interactions with you when you were a child?

[InvisibleTouch]

19. Agreed...

...though I will say that physical and emotional abuse sends the exact same message: "You're worthless, and I have the right to violate you." As kids get older and bigger, a parent may no longer dare a physical assault, but verbal abuse can continue well into adulthood.

[LibertyorDeath]

21. My Dad did this to me...... I'm still not sure why

It really tears at your self esteem, confidence and trust

It is a very SICK thing to do to anyone especially a young child.

Verbal abuse often goes hand in hand with physical abuse

in my case the physical abuse was intermittent I never knew

when the next blow to the head would come. ( I'm talking about concussive blows not slaps )

They came without rhyme or reason.

I have no relationship with my dad... my choice and his loss....

[laylah]

23. ..

I am SO very sorry! :hug:

Jenn

[LibertyorDeath]

29. Thanks Jenn. You can't choose your parents but you can

choose to be the best parent you're capable of being.

I have two wonderful children & that's what I do every new day.

[sandnsea]

67. If the punches hadn't come

I suspect you would have a different view of the words. Abuse is more than losing your temper once in a while. People need to learn to discern the difference. Abuse is serious. A frustrated parent is not.

[bobbolink]

27. It's isn't just CHILDREN! Verbal abuse is harmful to all!

It's usually the first step in wife abuse, to wear down her defenses so she gives in to physical and sexual abuse.

I thought everyone knew that by now.

Yet, it's all allowed right here on DU.

Yup, wear us all down, so we are desensitized to abuse and the pain of others.

[Individualist]

36. You're right

After divorcing my verbally abusive husband long ago, it took me many years to rebuild my self-esteem. Whenever anyone tries spewing crap at me now, my inherited Irish/Choctaw temper kicks in. I'll never be susceptible to that kind of BS again.

[bobbolink]

37. I'm sorry you went through that.

:hug:

NOt all of us are able to heal in time, because not all of us are able to find an abuse-free living situation.

[Individualist]

45. Thank you

I was fortunate enough to have the good sense at age 22 to realize I didn't want to spend the rest of my life that way and get out of an abusive situation. Had I not been as young or had I been in the abusive situation for a longer period of time, I have no doubt that the harmful effects would have lasted for a lifetime.

[bobbolink]

68. Having come out of an emotionally abusive and neglectful home,

at 22 I had no sense of self, and no ability to know when enough was enough.

There are many of us who didn't have physical abuse, but yet were left defenseless because of emotional abuse, which then led to physical abuse that we accepted because we didn't have that sense of self.

I got out with a broken rib, a torn scalp, and a sense that I was worthless.

[Individualist]

82. I'm so sorry

for what you went through, Bobbolink. I don't know how old you are now, but on the basis of your posts on DU, you seem to have developed the sense of self that was denied to you. Unfortunately too many people lack the empathy to understand the phrase "Walk a mile in my shoes...".

:hug:

[bobbolink]

92. Thank you for understanding and caring.

There's plenty of abuse going on right here on this thread, and there doesn't seem to be any way of blocking them, so it's all I will say.

I'm expecting to be hit here for the little I divulged.

That's how sad it's all become.

[supernova]

40. ...

:hug:

[supernova]

39. Yep, see my post above

Thank you for your understanding bobbolink

[bobbolink]

70. .

:hug:

I rarely post here anymore, because the level of understanding and caring is ....

.........sad.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Yes it can break your health.

My ex hubby nagged me constantly and after four years, I had a physical collapse, landed in the hospital with bacterial pneumonia. This lasted on and off for five years. I had countless ER visits from uncontrollable vomiting from sinus infections/drainage, bronchitis and pneumonia. My doctor washed my lungs out four times in five years.

My grandmother was a very bossy, controlling overachiever. This woman was born in 1898 and had a master's degree!!! In Mississippi!!

Everytime my parents dragged us to her house she barked at me for not sleeping in her soft beds, for not eating her horrible boiled to death cooking, for not getting up at 6:30 to do God-knows-what, etc. etc. She called all of us lazy.

[Nutmegger]

55. I can't believe what I'm seeing here.

You got a K&R from me. The flaming you are receiving is ridiculous!

[spoony]

130. Me neither.

Apparently the only way to screw up a kid is to beat them with a hammer, according to some here.

[Madspirit]

60. Psychology 101

For anyone who doesn't think verbal abuse is as harmful as physical abuse, I highly suggest Psychology 101. Constantly belittling a child can screw them every bit as much as physical abuse. My parents were equal opportunity givers of pain. I got both but go take a parenting class. I highly suggest it. It takes almost nothing to break a little kid's heart. See their little faces fall... Constantly belittling someone I would say, can even, on occasion, be worse than the beatings. Once again, I know this, firsthand.
Lee

[MADem]

66. CONSTANTLY belittling? Do we KNOW that is what the guy did? Hell, he was noncustodial.

What I find absurd about this entire discussion is how everyone "KNOWS" everything.

The guy "is" a verbal abuser, he didn't just lose his temper once.

I mean, really--come on. No one on this thread knows jackshit. They don't know if Baldwin is a saint or a sinner, and they don't know if Kim Basinger is a suffering saint of a single mom, or a vicious harridan determined to fuck her ex-husband any way she can.

But boy oh, boy--everyone likes to fight about shit they know nothing about. Unless we're flies on their walls, I think it's best to assume as little as possible about the entire matter.

Good old GE--NBC--they've been fucking up a lot lately!

[Madspirit]

89. Didn't know

I thought this thread preceded the Baldwin crap. I wasn't even thinking about Baldwin. I was just thinking about abuse in general.

However, if that is how he spoke to his daughter and she doesn't want to spend time with him, it doesn't take a lot of "assuming" on our parts to LOGICALLY figure he is a jerky dad. I doubt it was an isolated incident. Really sweet people, really good parents, don't just suddenly become THAT abusive.

Americans are stunning...go look at the Imus threads...in our refusal to examine our own behavior and our belligerent defense of the right to be Big Damn Jerks. "I'm a 'markin. We have free speech. I can be a big damned jerk if I wanna be." I wonder if any other countries revel in their right to be BIG DAMNED JERKS.

Whatever happened to self-examination and trying to be a better person? It is so sad and so very sick.
Lee

[MADem]

176. Self examination is great. Diagnosing someone from a single out-of-context phone message

without knowing anything about what precipitated the outburst isn't self-examination, it is voyeurism.

I always ask the 'Cui bono?' question. Who benefits from this tape getting out, that apparently was a piece of EVIDENCE that had been sealed before family court?

Surely Alec Baldwin doesn't benefit. He comes off looking like a total shithead. And maybe he is one. But maybe it was a one-off. WE do not KNOW.

And how does this long distance "examination," (it isn't a self examination, it's a ripping-to-shreds of yet another celebrity scandal) without any real facts beyond an ugly divorce, a fat actor making an ass of himself on the phone, and an agoraphobic mother who was a movie star once...and in the middle, a kid...do to make any one of us "a better person?"

Much heat, no light.

[noiretextatique]

156. it was certainly inappropriate

i can only imagine how an 11 year old child might feel about receiving a message like that from her father. fuck him, and his anger.

[MADem]

177. Of course it was inappropriate, but unless the KID is a DU member and can

let us know the dirty details, we have no knowledge that it was CONSTANT.

We know nothing, beyond that the guy lost his temper in a single voicemail.

[Morereason]

180. Nobody here is really discussing specifically the Baldwin thing

I have read most of the thread. It is about verbal abuse in general.

[MADem]

181. Well, the originator of the thread brought the guy up

"...lo and behold, Mr. Baldwin has brought the issue to light not 24 hours later..."

And there are plenty of people here who ARE discussing the Baldwin business.

But hey, whatever.

[Madspirit]

61. K&R...n/t

[mudesi]

73. MORE INFORMATION HERE

http://www.daniel-sonkin.com/PsychAb.html

The Psychological Maltreatment of Children

Researchers in the field of child maltreatment have been examining the issue of psychological maltreatment for many years because it has been viewed as the unifying factor that connects the cognitive, affective and interpersonal problems that result from physical and sexual abuse and neglect (Brassard, Germain and Hart, 1987; Hart and Brassard, 1987). There is a growing body of literature that supports the claim that psychological maltreatment is just as damaging as physical or sexual abuse or neglect (Egeland and Erickson, 1987). In operationalizing psychological maltreatment for the purpose of empirical studies, researchers have struggled with the advantages and disadvantages of broad versus narrow definitions of psychological maltreatment. Broad definitions of psychological abuse recognize its manifestations in both obvious and subtle forms. Broad definitions also help to clearly illustrate the pervasiveness of this type of abuse and the gray boundary between abusive and non-abusive behaviors. Broad definitions make the connection between social and cultural factors and their influence on the experience of the individual or family. On the other hand, these broad definitions of psychological abuse may often disregard important individual and cultural differences creating standards of conduct defined by a few but compared to many. The greatest drawback to broad definitions of psychological abuse is that the definition may be so vague or general that it makes the majority of parents vulnerable to being identified as abusers. This also gives the subtle or direct impression that these borderline cases will eventually become full-fledged cases of abuse, even though there is no definitive research that supports this theory.

[Anwen]

80. I agree with you completely.

Great post!

[ananda]

90. Totally agree.

Abuse is serious.

Look at Bush.

[NashVegas]

91. The Denial In This Thread Is Amazing

To those of you who are complaining that this is just another way for people to portray themselves as victims, I ask you:

What would you think of someone who came home and screamed at their dog all afternoon? If this behavior continued for a period of years, what sort of behavioral tendencies would you expect of the dog?

[Le Taz Hot]

97. The calouse, ignorant,

lack of compassion on this board is getting intolerable.

For the asshats above, I had both growing up. I'd rather have the physical abuse because it's proveable WHEN they do it on the "right" part of the body. The other shit ist't.

I'm sorry, I'm sick of this site.

[Madspirit]

100. Me too

I had all the kinds of abuse too...and I think verbal is just as bad.

From my post above:

Americans are stunning...go look at the Imus threads...in our refusal to examine our own behavior and our belligerent defense of the right to be Big Damn Jerks. "I'm a 'markin. We have free speech. I can be a big damned jerk if I wanna be." I wonder if any other countries revel in their right to be BIG DAMNED JERKS.

...and what's saddest is that I am talking about at DU...a supposedly progressive site. Wow, I remember when "progressive" had meaning.

Whatever happened to self-examination and trying to be a better person? It is so sad and so very sick.
Lee

[Zuiderelle]

121. And at the risk of repeating myself from above, me three.

The constant verbal abuse is what tore me apart as a child.

I think those who defend Baldwin were either similarly abused as children or are abusive to their own children. In the one, they are trying to defend their parents, and in the other, themselves. Pretty damn sad if you ask me.

[noiretextatique]

148. hi madspirit...

it's sickenening an dsisheartening...the BIG DAMNED JERK phenemenon, here at DU and in this country in general.
whatever happened to self-examination and trying to be a better person? it has been replaced by being a jerk, denigrating anything you don't understand or experience, and generally acting like an asshole :hurts:
anyway...wanted to give you a shout out, an amen, and a :thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

103. Sorry, Taz

Why don't you join me in using the ignore button?

I had to put up with all three (sexual, verbal, physical) and wouldn't rather have had one form over another. Even when there are visible marks, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is going to do anything about it. Especially if you're part of a messed-up family.

Best of luck ...

[Dora]

149. Thank you, Crisco, for the sensibility of your post. n/t

[NashVegas]

173. I'm Still Waiting For An Answer to My Question

Their silence speaks volumes ...

[countryjake]

175. Doubt you'll get one...

they disrupted this discussion, now they're off doing the same in another similar thread.

Your example of the helpless animal is a good one and I almost brought that up here, but the cluster-fuck-jerk-intimidation effectively silenced me.

I have a cat who I took away from an abuser as a kitten, several years ago; she still is my most testy pet, scared of all people, and occasionally lashes out with her teeth and toenails. Two ferals that I also rescued (from a woods) have long since learned to trust, no longer live in fear-attack-mode, and even will eventually creep out from their hiding spots when we get company now. Not so with the conditioned kitty. She will also piss on my pillow, if voices are raised around here for too long or something especially loud and nasty is blaring on the tube.

I know this doesn't quite equate with what you've asked, but my kitty came cross-country from the same home I was raised in and this topic has brought many things to mind.

[NashVegas]

185. No, That's Okay

Why not digress at this point?

My cat gets easily over-excited with others. She'll go to them for affection, but if they make any sudden moves, she'll get aggressive - even with those who have become familiar. It's probably because I don't entertain enough.

[Zuiderelle]

93. "there is something wrong with them, because they are verbally abusing their own children"

Good post. :thumbsup:

[undergroundpanther]

106. This is true

I still hear the evil words of bullies who taunted me in middle school..I still feel a bit of depression and fear when an art project is finished, even though I know it is good work and even back in middle school my art was everywhere because the teachers thought I was good , but the bullies hateful words about my art,appearance anything and everything that I was or I created still comes back and rips open the scab on my soul.I can try to rewrite those bad memories with memories of positive things I hear now as an adult but the thing about trauma it does not stop hurting when the assholes are gone.
I hear my fathers hateful voice and I am a kid again terrified trapped waiting for the next round of shit.My parents were not verbally kind to so sometimes now when my mom is being decent I think she is fixing to hurt me,with words,pushing her gender ideals on me. I fight the startles and yells I make I get when she walks near me and try to control the reactions the past evokes with every moment with her now .My mind feels like a fortress armed to the teeth with defenses because of the past and that the scars remain.It is exhausting to be aware of this every moment but I have to be lest I mistakenly defend myself from something she does or says that meant no harm..
Verbal abuse is sometimes worse than physical abuse,because the scars are invisible to the eyes of others and your emotions can be so raw your defenses make you a monster, and verbal abuse warps and twists the way you relate sometimes for years.
Healing comes so slow.

[HughMoran]

108. You are absolutely correct!

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but I agree with you.

If you are implying that Alec Baldwin is a serial abuser, then that would have to be brought to evidence first. I've never used words like that with my kids, but I've blown my top a couple of times.

[Ariana Celeste]

111. You're right.

Unfortunately I know that firsthand.

I've been sexually abused, physically abused, and emotionally abused on and off since I was a young girl. The emotional abuse has scarred me far more then everything else I've been through.

I don't understand why people ignore and deny how damaging emotional/verbal abuse can be to a person. (Funny how most of the people I know in person who deny it happen to be people who have abused me or others.)

[gollygee]

116. I agree completely and I've seen people who have suffered from this

I'm not sure if that's what happened here or if Alec Baldwin lost his top just this once because the girl is being a hormonal pre-teen girl, and as someone who once was one, I will attest that they can sometimes indeed be difficult.

All parents yell occasionally. But parents who regularly belittle and yell at their kids really damage their kids desperately. It completely destroys their self-esteem.

[gollygee]

124. Hmm I didn't notice the "at least as bad as" part of what you said

I would say that they can both be very bad, and both even reach the same level of destructiveness, but I'm not prepared to say it's at least as bad as physical abuse. Any abuse can be devastating and there is no competition.

[electron_blue]

117. I agree. I used to think the opposite, until I read volumes of studies, and managed to leave an

abusive relationship. I think what's important to keep in mind is that you can't have physical abuse *without* verbal (or sometimes called emotional or mental) abuse. They go together. And while it is possible to have verbal abuse without physical abuse, studies show that this is true in the vast minority of cases. 95% of verbal abuse situations have at least some kind of physical abuse accomopanying them. Which the perpetrators themselves often minimize, so even they don't see the physical abuse for what it is.

Verbal abuse is NOT just name-calling. It is not just raising your voice. It includes many mind-games, threats, intimidation and other tactics designed to control another human being.

And it is everywhere. It's rare to find a workplace or family where verbal abuse is not going on. Which is not to say that all parents abuse. It's just that it's very common and many refuse to see it for what it is. denial.

[meldroc]

119. Now this is turning into a who can abuse the most thread.

For those of you PERPETRATING abuse on this thread, fuck you. Go fuck yourselves with a splintered railroad tie.

I'm done with this thread.

[Kerrytravelers]

120. While I agree with the concept, I'm not sure the Baldwin even is a good example.

We don't know if this was an outburst of anger and frustration that he regrets and if he made amends for the event. We don't know what else is going on. People make mistakes- terrible ones. But hearing a snippet of one outburst doesn't define the entire situation.

Now, in regards to the concept. Without going into my private life, I have been on the receiving end of emotional and verbal abuse. It was a very difficult time in my life. I have removed myself from the situation. This was years ago. I was young and too trusting and allowed myself to get into a very bad situation. It did ruin a portion of my life, a few years that I can never get back, and it did set me back both career-wise and in my ability to form trusting and lasting relationships. I did seek help and I am fine now. Just because I didn't always sport bruises didn't mean I wasn't hurting. It actually began to hurt physically. I was down, low, and everything ached. Emotional, mental and verbal abuse is like an invisible scar. Getting it hurt and it remains a reminder, but as it is invisible, many people don't know you have it. They can't tell just by looking.

[woo me with science]

126. You know, verbal abuse may be hurtful, but

it is probably not nearly as damaging as the IDEA that namecalling is devastating to people. Unfortunately, people are trained now (by media, bad therapists, pop psychology) to BELIEVE that abusive words can wound them in soul-damaging ways and affect them for the rest of their lives.

The extent of the hysteria over words spoken in anger is new. People probably always looked askance at parents who reamed their children out verbally, but it is only within the past several decades that such children have been taught that such experiences should have the power to cripple them for life.

The belief system of victimhood is often much more damaging than the namecalling itself, I fear.

[spoony]

132. "The extent of the hysteria over words spoken in anger is new"

Yeah I guess if you mean "new" as in the last several thousand years, new relative to the universe. Because "hysteria" over insults has caused strife throughout the ages. Pop psychology did not invent the duel.

[woo me with science]

134. No, I'm talking about something very specific.

The re-definition of words spoken in anger, particularly from parent to child, but also between adults, as "abuse."

There is an element of pop psychology of the 1980's through today (although it is thankfully declining to some extent) that teaches people to reinterpret such interactions as soul-damaging events, when they may never have thought of them that way before.

People used to be taught that words reflect the anger of the moment. People used to shrug off words. Now people are taught that words can cripple one for life. For people forming ideas about their own identity, I am not sure that is always such a positive change.

[gollygee]

136. Do you think people weren't crippled by words before the 1980s?

Like someone had to suggest it?

I really think that people have been devastated by words - not just occasional words, but very regular use of words that degrade other people - for as long as words have existed.

I can shrug off just about any words if they're only used every so often. But to be very regularly told you're stupid and worthless, etc., as you're growing up and establishing your sense of self-worth by the people who should be building you up is really and truly damaging.

I was not a victim of this. But I have seen it happen to someone close to me.

[woo me with science]

160. No, if you look at my other posts,

I said that I do believe that severe and chronic degradation of children is a BAD thing, and I think there are well-controlled studies among the garbage research that actually do suggest longterm effects. And I would even go so far as to say that much of what is considered "sexual abuse" today (e.g., exposure to off-color jokes) is probably a lot less harmful, depending on context, than living in a household where people are chronically verbally degrading you.

That being said....Yes, people HAVE been taught to interpret some things as abusive and soul-damaging nowadays that probably they would have shrugged off a few decades ago. Nowadays if you go into a therapist's office and say that your father called you a "pig" a la Alec Baldwin, there is a very high chance that you will find a therapist who will interpret that behavior as evidence of soul-damaging, horrible abuse by a father to a child, even before knowing anything more of the relationship or the context in which the comment happened. People here know nothing about Alec Baldwin's relationship with his daughter under normal circumstances, but clearly some are willing to categorize him as abusive and predict long-term severe consequences to her psyche, based on a two-minute phone call.

This is a societal/cultural SCRIPT now, as you can see by the vehement responses in this thread. People hear this one brief message, and it immediately elicits a lengthy and heated thread with buzzwords like "psychic violence" and absolutely ludicrous comments comparing ugly words to rape.

Verbal abuse is real. However, it is part of our cultural reality now that many more people interpret their own childhoods as abusive, than actually were abused. That is, if you use a reasonable definition of abuse that does not predict permanent psychic scarring and crippling from ugly words spoken in anger from an otherwise generally adequate parent.

[noiretextatique]

163. i finally understand your argument

and i still disagree with it.

flogging a slave wasn't considered abuse of a person because:
a slave wasn't considered a person
a slave was considered property

slapping around a woman or kid wasn't always considered abuse for much the same reasons as above.

the revelations have been relatively recently because...

it's been relatively recently that america has become a *somewhat* enlightened society.

[woo me with science]

172. I suspect we agree on more than you think.

Believe it or not, I feel strongly that people should treat each other with kindness and compassion. That was one of the first things my daughter and I talked about when she started expressing interest in boys and wanted to know how I had found a good and decent husband.

My issue is with the cultural myth that having been exposed to such interactions damages you for life, and with the sick pop psychology culture that teaches people to view themselves as permanent victims. I remember a hilarious statistic that was bandied about in the 1980's, when victimhood was at its height with the repressed memory movement. One of the pop psychology gurus, John Bradshaw, estimated that 90-plus percent of American families were "dysfunctional." An interesting pathologizing of what statistically reflects "normal."

Human beings are tremendously resilient creatures, have been throughout history. This myth that you are broken and at a great disadvantage in life as a result of such experiences is NOT necessarily true at all. History is full of people with truly horrible histories and experiences, well beyond verbal abuse, who thrived and made great contributions in life. Unfortunately, much pop psychology today teaches people to focus on what was wrong in their childhood, and to wallow in their victimhood. If you don't believe that is the case, look at the responses in this thread assuming that a two-minute angry call from Baldwin to his daughter will cause her permanent, crippling psychological damage.

[distantearlywarning]

139. My mother grew up in a verbally abusive household.

This was in the 1950s. As far as I know, she never once read a self-help book or saw a therapist. She and my dad don't watch much TV either, and they're both hard-core libertarians, so I don't think she was the type to believe media that told her she was supposed to be a victim all her life.

But I know her experiences DID affect her relationships with others, even if she didn't talk about it much. For one thing, she cut off ties with her parents and siblings by the time I was born (why? she was never hit as far as I know, just verbally abused), and she also was a bit nuts about verbal conflict - pathologically afraid of it. I'm sure it was because of her experiences as a child.

[noiretextatique]

144. that's not what i'd call verbal abuse...no "anger" necessary

verbal abuse is committed by sadisitic people who take pleasure in torturing others. instead of using fists, they use words. a sadist doesn't have to be angry to torture someone.

[woo me with science]

158. The problem is that many people would.

For some people, the defining line isn't there anymore. Yes, there is actual abuse, and abuse is as harmful as it always has been. However, our culture has now convinced many more people that they were victims of abuse, than really were.

This blurring of the line between what should truly be condemned and what is probably a normal part of how flawed human beings interact from time is a real shame, because it prevents resources from going to people who really need them. The victim industry in therapy is very real, and it cripples more people than you know by convincing them that they are damaged victims, rather than empowering them to move PAST upsetting experiences.

[noiretextatique]

159. i think it's exactly opposite

the problem is that so much abusive behavior is masqueraded as "a normal part of how flawed human beings interact."

"victim industries"...how does that explain why schizophrenics are sleeping in the streets in america?
mental health services are DISMAL in this country, not because of a "victim industry," but because of a number of other factors, including the bottom line. that has nothing to do with people with too much money who can pay someone to discover a new aliment for them every week. or a drug industry that finds a new type of depression for its new little pill...for those who can pay for it.

speaking of someone who needed help: how did the "victim industry" interfere with the VA Tech murderer's ability to get help?

as long as we, as a society, continue to downplay, diminish, and excuse away one causal factor in mental and emotional illnesses and violent crime (abuse), we can continue to fool ourselves about what is and is not "normal" behavior.

[woo me with science]

167. The biggest problem in mental health care today

is the fact that there is no quality control. HMO's are deciding whom to hire, and they do so based on $$$$$$. As a result, there is a market for poorly trained therapists who use treatments that are NOT empirically validated and that are based in lore rather than science.

When the head of the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University tried to revamp the department to make sure that the therapies being given were empirically validated, it was the trauma therapists who went nuts, because they were the ones with the unvalidated treatments. They want to keep using voodoo treatments like EMDR and Thought Field Therapy that have no basis in science. There is new research suggesting that many of the "accepted" treatments for PTSD trauma probably actually make people worse rather than better, strengthening trauma responses and creating permanent victims. But the victim industry doesn't want to give up the business. There is great resistance to testing these therapies in rigorous, controlled fashion. And there is a constant stream of new voodoo therapists from quack counseling programs who sustain the fiction.

It is a travesty and a tragedy. Especially given the cost of the current debacle in Iraq, and the fact that soldiers coming home to "mental health" treatment are likely to be harmed rather than helped as a result of the infestation of PTSD treatment with bad theory and even worse clinical practice. Fortunately, things are changing now, at least in academic settings. It will take a long time for it to trickle down into community mental health, though. Especially since HMO's are fueling the fly-by-night programs that churn out the incompetent therapists that the HMO's are so happy to hire because they are cheap. Why hire a therapist with rigorous training and the ability to empirically evaluate the treatments they give, when you can get someone from a two-year fly-by-night program where they watched "Sybil" and had class discussions about verbal abuse and repressed memories?

If we could cut the garbage out of what now passes for mental health care in this country, if we could demand empirically validated treatments, people who really need it, like Cho, would have a much better chance of getting help. As it is, there is way too much mythology and politics, and not enough science, in mental health.

[distantearlywarning]

137. No offense, but...

You sound like someone who hasn't experienced what you are discounting.

Nobody had to tell me that being told I was a worthless, lazy, disgusting slob every day was supposed to hurt, or that living with someone who constantly questioned your reality would make you kind of nuts. I figured out all by myself that his words and actions were psychologically damaging. And trust me, if I could return to the mental state I was in before experiencing that, I certainly would. I liked myself and my world a lot better before that happened. I actually don't think of myself as a victim - it's not like I sit around every day thinking about all of my dreadful psychological wounds or something. But I know I act and think differently now than I did before that happened. It's just a fact, like someone limping after sustaining a wound to the leg or something. You know, there's quite a bit of *good* neuropsych research out there showing that psychological trauma actually changes brain chemistry, sometimes permanently - it's not that difficult to believe that emotional abuse would do that too.

But thanks so much for assuming that I'm a brainwashed loser who's milking her unpleasant life experiences for attention. I appreciate reading that sort of sentiment on a progressive board like DU. After all, isn't that what we're all about - victim blaming and discounting the effects of other people's negative life events? Maybe after we're done deriding and discounting the experience of victims of verbal bullying we could start in on the unemployed people on this board. I'll start: Get a job, losers! Everybody knows that you could find something if you would just get off your couch and actually look for something! After that...the overweight (put down that donut, lard-ass) and the acne-ridden (pock marks are a sign of poor character). Yay! :sarcasm:

[noiretextatique]

145. the clue is the language this poster uses

he's talking about "name-calling," not verbal abuse, and he thinks they are one in the same.

[woo me with science]

187. Wow, some venom there.

I must have touched a nerve. I seriously doubt that Librescu, survivor of the Holocaust in childhood and political persecution in adulthood, who pushed his body in front of those of his students to save their lives during the massacre earlier this week, spent even a scintilla of the amount of time feeling sorry for himself as many on this thread appear to do now, decades after this verbal abuse.

It is funny. I went to a website for so-called "survivors" of abuse this week (it was primarily a website for people with repressed "memories," which makes the responses even more outrageous) just to see how they were responding to the massacre. It was post after post after post about how it affected them, how they were shaking and trembling, and how other people in their families weren't being nice enough to realize how much they were affected. I had to search for a good 10 minutes for a response that was solely about the people in Virginia.

Don't tell me there isn't a victim culture in this country. It is certainly not everyone, but there is a sick element of full-grown adults who spend a shameful amounts of time feeling sorry for themselves for what they experienced as children and blaming decades old experiences for the problems they have.

[NashVegas]

171. No Media Training Is Needed

The only thing the media has done is to create an atmosphere where it can be discussed. Just like it created an atmosphere where sexual and other physical abuse can be discussed.

The extent of the hysteria over words spoken in anger is new.

It is not the expression of anger in itself that is abusive, it is how it's done that make some expressions of anger abusive.

Like the controlling nature of physical abuse, verbal/emotional abuse, too, is controlling. It's not enough to express to the other person you are angry, you must also make sure the person you are directing your anger at feels rotten and you control the exchange.

Non-abusive: 'I'm pissed that you did this.' And you leave space for the other to respond, without attempting to control their response.

Abusive: 'You're an asshole. WHY did you DO this? Did you get dropped on your head as a baby ...?' And so on and so on and so on, on a regular basis.

A young child has no defense against a message like this, especially when it comes from a person whose approval they crave. And as you go on in life if you don't confront it, no matter how successful you are, you always hear that voice that tells what a fuck-up you are.

I don't think anything has particularly changed with verbal abuse, except that it's become a topic of conversation. But really, it goes hand-in-hand with other forms of abuse in a home. And it's fascinating that, here we are having this conversation, and there are people in this threat attacking those who are saying the shit is real and it needs to stop.

I'm not asking to be seen as a victim. At one time I was, but now I don't take shit from anyone, for the most part. I'm asking you, and others in this thread, to consider your words when you speak to a child and consider the effect they may have when you express your anger to them. I'm asking for prevention.

[distantearlywarning]

129. Thanks for posting this.

Sorry you're getting so much nastiness about it.

As someone who was once in a relationship with a physically and emotionally abusive man, I can tell you, 100%, hands down that the worst part was the emotional/verbal abuse. Bruises and broken bones heal (and yes, I was raped too, in case the naysayers don't think I quite suffered enough to have an opinion). Wounds to the psyche stick around for years. If I had to make the choice of being hit or being emotionally abused (more than just "insults", by the way), I'd say, bring on the beating. 7 years later, I don't even remember the physical stuff well. But I still automatically say "sorry" in a cringing way when I make a mess or do something wrong, because internally, my subconscious still thinks it's going to be verbally "hit" by the man in my life (who, by the way, never treats me with anything but kindness and love, and certainly doesn't tell me that I'm worthless or disgusting because I spilled something or left my coat on the couch). My husband hates it that I do that, but I can't seem to break the habit. And that's the least of what's left from 8 months with a verbal abuser.

No, I'm not a victim anymore. I packed up a few boxes and my cats and I left that bastard. And my life is tremendously better now, and I'm nobody's whipping girl any more (nor am I "looking for victimhood", as some people here have suggested). Nobody in my life now except for my husband knows that I was in an abusive relationship once, and I think they'd be shocked if I told them. But the emotional scars, the low self-esteem, and all of that still remains festering inside somewhere. The physical stuff healed. I'm not sure if the verbal stuff ever will.

Also, just as a sidenote - I saw a therapist once about this for about 2 weeks. I decided she was completely full of crap and making me worse, so I stopped going. Since then, I received two degrees in research psychology and realized that therapists didn't do good research. I don't like them or trust them at all, and I certainly haven't been indoctrinated into the so-called "victim culture" or anything. In fact, you can look up previous posts by me on DU where I was intensely critical of therapists and clinical psychology. I just thought I'd put that out there to stave off the undoubtably forthcoming multiple attacks accusing me of being brainwashed by therapy.

Also, I don't give a crap one way or the other about the Alec Baldwin thing, and even if the OP's post was referencing that, this one isn't.

Finally, I'm completely shocked by some of the sentiments expressed on this thread, and by the tone of some of the posts. I really don't think there's a need to be that vicious and contemptuous towards anyone, especially not your fellow DUers who haven't done anything except disagree with your viewpoint on some random topic. Derisive laughter? Discounting their opinions and experiences by telling them they all just want to be victims? Come on. Have a heart. I'm no "sunshine and puppies" thin-skinned poster here on DU, but this is over the line. And that kind of communication doesn't further reasonable discussion here or in any other thread. This is the kind of thing that is destroying community here on DU, and it's just not called for. If you disagree, fine. Just say so. But do it respectfully, for Christ's sake. There's just no cause for contemptuous language and ROFL smilies and so forth.
:rant:

[lukasahero]

133. Nice rant

Seriously - thank you for it - all of it.

I hope it gets the attention it deserves.

[distantearlywarning]

141. Sadly, I think the attention it will get

is by people who will tell me that I've been brainwashed by Dr. Phil and that I should just get over my victimhood. :-(

[lukasahero]

146. Yeah, well

over in the Lounge, I was just called an obnoxious fucking sucker so cheer up. :) I viscerally hate that "victim mentality" bs.

(I'm just trying to bring more attention to your post and also trying to cheer you up a bit. I saw what you are referring to. I can't even be bothered with responding to people who buy into that crap. I think a lot of "Ignore" lists have been well enhanced today.)

:hug:

[distantearlywarning]

147. Thanks!

:-)

[Dora]

142. Good post. Thanks for sharing. n/t

[noiretextatique]

153. makes you wonder about the kind of viciousness displayed here

madspirit calls it the "big damned jerk" culture. it's an odd phenonmenon, because who would take issue with the subject of verbal abuse...except perhaps verbal abusers? who would spout 'cultural wars' language in reponse to people who have been verbally/emotionally abused? stuff like "the culture of victimhood" and other rwish doublespeak. an odd silencing sort of tactic, i suppose. i know i am treading a fine line with my post...but i don't really give a damn.
i get so sick of the feeding frenzy mentality here in response to anything remotely about the ugliness of human behavior, and the real victims that ugliness continues to create.

thanks for your post.

[etherealtruth]

162. My first thought about some of the responses ...

... was: It is pretty obvious that they don't see a problem with "verbal" abuse.

[NashVegas]

174. I Know Exactly What You're Saying

Rushbot language.

[Cabcere]

157. Wonderful post, distantearlywarning.

:hug: I'm sorry you had to deal with abuse, and I admire and respect you (and the other DUers who have had experience with abusive families, relationships, etc.) for posting about your experience on here. I'm also sorry that some people have been nothing but rude and disrespectful towards you and others who have really suffered, and I agree that that kind of behavior is totally uncalled for, especially on a generally progressive site like DU. One of the posters in particular, I've noticed, seems to enjoy jumping in on threads for the sole purpose of stirring shit up and being rude to people who differ in opinion. :shrug: There are a few on every board, I suppose. Anyway, thanks once again for your heartfelt and enlightening post. :hug: :hi:

[distantearlywarning]

161. "Stirring shit up"

You're not alone. I've noticed that too. Usually I say something when I notice patterns like that here, but I'm moving tomorrow and have been too busy and distracted to keep up with all of the massive flame wars on DU lately.

[Cabcere]

164. Yeah...

I think I may have to try out the "ignore" feature. :shrug: Good luck with your move! :hi:

[etherealtruth]

152. Thank you for this post ....

... and an even bigger thank you to all the people that shared the stories of their terrible pain at the hands (or more accurately, mouths) of abusers.

Abuse is never OK ... deciding which is worse (physical/emotional) is only relevant in the victims perspective ... but neither is acceptable.

This thread is both sad and maddening.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

155. That's a meaningless claim.

There is no single unit of verbal abuse or physical abuse. There are forms of verbal abuse worse than forms of physical abuse, and vice versa.

FWIW, though, I think that the number of children physically abused worse than the worst cases of purely verbal abuse is probably non-trivial, so to that extent I disagree with you.

That's not to say there aren't lots of serious cases of verbal abuse, though.

[kskiska]

170. John Lennon told his son Julian

that he was a "Saturday Night Special," in other words, not a planned child, as Sean was.

[flying_monkeys]

179. I think you'd get farther citing "emotional" abuse over "verbal"...

It may just be semantics, but verbal abuse covers too big an umbrella, IMO... whereas "emotional abuse" is more selective and covers not everything said but just the "wounds the psyche and very soul" utterances.


I will agree that emotional abuse is damaging, but I don't know if I can quantify it against sexual and physical abuse for all parties. Each takes its toll against individuals individually.....

[ends_dont_justify]

184. It's all a different category, IMO

I think the OP is just trying to say it's a big player, though, not like third party during US elections.

[Dinger]

182. I Have Seen The Absolutely Devastating Effects Of Verbal Abuse Firsthand K & R

I'm sorry, but this hits way too close to home. I can't give details here. It's too personal. I have been a victim and I have witnessed verbal abuse. All I can say is I will never be the same, and time can't do much for me. The best I can do is to try and maintain, and find what shreds of contentment I can. Happiness? Joy? That's for other people.

[Dinger]

183. If A Child . . .

Sorry, I'm not sure who the author is. This seems to fit.

IF A CHILD....

If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility,
he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
he learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
He learns to find love in the world.

[dysfunctional press]

186. verbal abuse can be MUCH worse than physical abuse.

i grew up with both(thanks, dad!)- and the verbal stuff- CONSTANTLY telling me how worthless i was in every way imaginable did more long term damage than any of the beatings. broken bones heal, broken psyches don't always.

[TNMOM]

190. good thread. tx for posting

eom