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President Obama hailed as philosopher statesman after knocking ball out of park in Nobel speech

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Politics_Guy25 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:21 PM
Original message
President Obama hailed as philosopher statesman after knocking ball out of park in Nobel speech
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 11:55 PM by Politics_Guy25
This has received suprisingly litte play on DU today but President Obama, again, hit the ball out of the park in his acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo today. The speech is being compared to his Philadelphia speech on race relations in terms of how good it was. Each time he is faced with a critical test, he never ceases to not only meet the bar but to exceed it. Time and time and time again.

Link here about how superb the speech was:

http://www.slate.com/id/2238081/

Critics may dismiss the speech as a hodgepodge—a steely invocation of Realpolitik here, a rousing chorus of democracy promotion there—but they would be mistaken.

Yes, Obama's speech is filled with ambiguities, dilemmas, and contradictions. More to the point, it explicitly grapples with them. If there is a single theme to the speech, it's that a philosopher-statesman of our time (which is what Obama is trying to be) must recognize and grapple with both universal principles and contingent realities, with our ambitions and our limits, with—as Martin Luther King Jr. put it in his Nobel lecture (and which Obama quoted today)—the "is-ness of man's present nature" and the "ought-ness that forever confronts him."

Read in its entirety, Obama's speech seems a faithful reflection of another theologian, Reinhold Niebuhr, who, during World War II and the Cold War that followed, sought to reconcile the principles of Christianity with the imperatives of national defense. In his influential 1952 book The Irony of American History, he wrote that American idealism must come to terms "with the limits of all human striving, the fragmentariness of all human wisdom, the precariousness of all historical configurations of power, and the mixture of good and evil in all human virtue."

Obama's speech doesn't mention Niebuhr, but back in April 2007, early on in the presidential campaign, David Brooks asked Obama whether he'd ever read Niebuhr. The candidate replied, "I love him, he's one of my favorite philosophers." Asked what he took away from Niebuhr, Obama answered, "I take away the compelling idea that there's serious evil in the world"; that "we should be humble and modest in our belief we can eliminate these things, but we shouldn't use that as an excuse for cynicism and inaction"; that "we have to make these efforts knowing they are hard, and not swinging from naive idealism to bitter realism."

Brooks observed in his New York Times column, "or a guy who's spent the last few months fund-raising, and who was walking off the Senate floor as he spoke, that's a pretty good off-the-cuff summary of Niebuhr's The Irony of American History."

The Nobel lecture that Obama delivered today is a fuller elaboration of the same ideas.



It was a profound speech on the profound issues of our time by a profound man. Also, the praise has come in from all quarters from those such as David Gergen and other media analysts.

Really, since 2007, I've come to expect nothing less from him.

Link to full text here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34360743/ns/politics-white_house/

Snippet below:
Full text of Obama's Nobel Peace Prize speech
updated 6:15 a.m. PT, Thurs., Dec . 10, 2009
OSLO, Norway - Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, Distinguished Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, citizens of America, and citizens of the world:

I receive this honor with deep gratitude and great humility. It is an award that speaks to our highest aspirations - that for all the cruelty and hardship of our world, we are not mere prisoners of fate. Our actions matter, and can bend history in the direction of justice.

And yet I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors on the world stage. Compared to some of the giants of history who have received this prize - Schweitzer and King; Marshall and Mandela - my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened of cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women - some known, some obscure to all but those they help - to be far more deserving of this honor than I.

But perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of a nation in the midst of two wars. One of these wars is winding down. The other is a conflict that America did not seek; one in which we are joined by forty three other countries - including Norway - in an effort to defend ourselves and all nations from further attacks.

Still, we are at war, and I am responsible for the deployment of thousands of young Americans to battle in a distant land. Some will kill. Some will be killed. And so I come here with an acute sense of the cost of armed conflict - filled with difficult questions about the relationship between war and peace, and our effort to replace one with the other.

These questions are not new. War, in one form or another, appeared with the first man. At the dawn of history, its morality was not questioned; it was simply a fact, like drought or disease - the manner in which tribes and then civilizations sought power and settled their differences.

Over time, as codes of law sought to control violence within groups, so did philosophers, clerics, and statesmen seek to regulate the destructive power of war. The concept of a "just war" emerged, suggesting that war is justified only when it meets certain preconditions: if it is waged as a last resort or in self-defense; if the forced used is proportional, and if, whenever possible, civilians are spared from violence.

For most of history, this concept of just war was rarely observed. The capacity of human beings to think up new ways to kill one another proved inexhaustible, as did our capacity to exempt from mercy those who look different or pray to a different God. Wars between armies gave way to wars between nations - total wars in which the distinction between combatant and civilian became blurred. In the span of thirty years, such carnage would twice engulf this continent. And while it is hard to conceive of a cause more just than the defeat of the Third Reich and the Axis powers, World War II was a conflict in which the total number of civilians who died exceeded the number of soldiers who perished.

In the wake of such destruction, and with the advent of the nuclear age, it became clear to victor and vanquished alike that the world needed institutions to prevent another World War. And so, a quarter century after the United States Senate rejected the League of Nations - an idea for which Woodrow Wilson received this Prize - America led the world in constructing an architecture to keep the peace: a Marshall Plan and a United Nations, mechanisms to govern the waging of war, treaties to protect human rights, prevent genocide, and restrict the most dangerous weapons.

In many ways, these efforts succeeded. Yes, terrible wars have been fought, and atrocities committed. But there has been no Third World War. The Cold War ended with jubilant crowds dismantling a wall. Commerce has stitched much of the world together. Billions have been lifted from poverty. The ideals of liberty, self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced. We are the heirs of the fortitude and foresight of generations past, and it is a legacy for which my own country is rightfully proud.

A decade into a new century, this old architecture is buckling under the weight of new threats. The world may no longer shudder at the prospect of war between two nuclear superpowers, but proliferation may increase the risk of catastrophe. Terrorism has long been a tactic, but modern technology allows a few small men with outsized rage to murder innocents on a horrific scale
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seeinfweggos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. recommended
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, Palin and Gingrich loved it.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. That's what they say publically, they're painted into a corner.
But deep down Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin are just like any other Obama hater.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. False. They do not praise Obama for everything. Only the things that they agree with.
Such as pro-war speeches.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. You must have a short memory.
Because Gingrich attacked Clinton over his military intervention in Kosovo.

Why? Because Clinton was a democrat.

And he'd be against Afghanistan now, only he supported it back when Bush was fucking around in Afghanistan.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Provide a source for the claim that Gingrich opposed Clinton's bombing of Yugoslavia.
The bombings killed several thousand Serbian civilians, which is the type of stuff that Gingrich loves.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Not only Gingrich, it was all the Republicans.
In fact, they kept using the same sort of shallow, thoughtless, one-liner platitudes and character assassinations that the anti-Obama nuts on DU have been using on DU for the last few days.

In some cases it's verbatim.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Provide a source for that claim.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. No.
I'm just going to let you sit there and fret about it.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. +1
one of the best responses to repeated "post a source" messages I've seen. Anyone really curious about it would have googled it and if it were not true, refuted you!

Of course, perhaps they would have stumbled across this:

"Ex-House Speaker Newt Gingrich yesterday slammed President Clinton’s “pathetic” conduct of the crisis in the Balkans that, he said, is creating a 'European Vietnam.'"

-New York Daily News, 5/13/99
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R, Grat speech, and doomed to be ignored by the very people here
who need to read and understand the whole thing.
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Politics_Guy25 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. President Obama...
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 11:30 PM by Politics_Guy25
operates in the abstract, on a higher plane, on a philosophical basis. It's his professorial nature after all. The trouble that he may or may not be having in the polls is largely I think based on that fact. People don't understand someone who operates on a higher level than they do. I don't mean that to be condescending at all to the public. It's also another reason why we are so lucky to have him as president. A real thinker in the oval for a change. Unlike Bush and Reagan.
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rusty fender Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
48. Yeah, he's playing wizard's chess so
the fact that he is continuing the Bush presidency is ok, cause we like him. If Bush were still in office, we'd hate everything he does, although it is exactly what Obama is doing. Cult of personality--look it up.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
53. Don't patronize me
by explaining that Obama "operates on a higher plane" than I do.

I, and plenty of others, are perfectly capable of thinking in the abstract. As a matter of fact, some of my opposition to Obama is philosophical in nature.

I understand him quite well, which is why I've never supported him, and never wanted him in the WH.

He's certainly a thinker. That doesn't mean that his agenda is what this nation needs, or the way he goes about achieving it is efficient or appropriate. Intelligence and good intent are not synonymous, and intelligent people can, and often are, WRONG.

You say you don't mean to be condescending while you tell us that we're lucky to have someone so much smarter than we are.

It sounds familiar. Kind of like the patronizing "slaves/the poor/women/etc. need masters/bosses/men/etc. to care for them because they can't do it themselves" philosophy historically used to justify inequalities of every kind.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
55. I find your post disturbing
I believe you are sincere in your beliefs and that is that I find un-nerving. He is a man, he is a politician, he puts his pants on the same way you do, he does not operate on some higher plane. He is a not a bad person or a bad president, but your post is a bit over the top, in my opinion, anyway. Peace.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obama doesn't speak in bumper sticker simplicity.
And that seems to be the main problem.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yes indeed!
Both here on DU and elsewhere...
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Politics_Guy25 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. And also the problems that we're having on HCR, financial reform, climate change
NONE of that is his fault. It's the fault of the bought and paid for stooges like Lieberman and Snowe in Congress who will never vote for something that doesn't benefit their corporate benefactors. DU has every right to be angry but be angry at them, not the prez. I can't believe I ever thought Lieberman was anything but a bitter angry vengeful evil fiend. HCR has woken me up to that.

If he had a congress that he could work with, things would be a lot better.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. No, he's going to totally suck until he turns into Dennis Kucinich
And then he'll be awesome.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. ROTFLMAO! Oh, and ... +1
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Then why are you posting a description/rationale for the speech, instead of the speech?
:shrug:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Because it's more important that people be told how wonderful President McDreamy is.
:eyes:
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. or maybe the poster just figures on a Dem message board
filled with people engaged in politics... most have already seen or read the speech and wanted to discuss it???

It is quite disheartening to see Dems on DU resort to freeper like name calling and childish snark toward our Dem President. but.. I'm sure it scored you some points somewhere eh?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:34 AM
Original message
Yes, it would be good to discuss the speech, not just an article telling us what to think about it.
:thumbsup:
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Politics_Guy25 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Honestly, the thought never occurred to me
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 11:52 PM by Politics_Guy25
And the point of the thread was to point out that President Obama did something that he was widely hailed for today. I've wanted to post something since this morning when hearing what a huge success it was but was waiting for an article like this with such substance to help back me up first.

But, anyway, I'll post the text now. That's a great idea. Thanks.

P.S. It's not like it's not widely distributed. Its the first entry on a google search for it. Not to mention either that it's huge and split up into 4-5 pages. Not easy to post all of it.
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
36. Why do people have to find fault with EVERYTHING.
None of us is perfect. The OP linked to the speech. Lighten up just a tiny bit, please.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. The same reason you need to
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 01:37 AM by omega minimo
make that stupid comment finding fault with me. :evilfrown: You are doing what you're complaining about.

"The OP linked to the speech" AFTER I asked the LEGITIMATE question, linked in response to it, if you bother to read his polite (more than you could manage) reply. Take your sanctimony and stick it.

I'm sick of people dumping shit on a valid and simple comment because they're responding to all the OTHER bullshit they've been reading.

Please.
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. In what way was I not polite?
I didn't call your comment "stupid." I didn't tell you do do anything with your "sanctimony."
I didn't even directly refer to you.

Why are you so angry?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. Yep
Yep, that's stupid. If you reply to MY post with "Why do people have to find fault with EVERYTHING." and now claim you "didn't even directly refer to you" -- that's either stupid or insanely passive/aggressive. Please refrain from attaching your assumptions and projections in a big wad and flinging them at me and then pretending that you didn't. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME PERSON.

Also not "polite" to top your misguided missive with "lighten up" since your post apparently was misplaced altogether. :thumbsdown:

If you want to scroll little rhetorical insults to yourself, get a diary, don't attach it to others and then be surprised that they are "angry" and telling you you're out of line.

I will not stay "angry" at you. If we meet again, I will stand by MY words and I will again reject any STRAWMEN you try to throw at me.
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. You are off the charts of some measurement, not sure what.
You do everything right. I do nothing right. You are perfect. I am 100% flawed. Have it your way

You are so so correct -- saying "lighten up" is an absolute outrage, unfathomably immpoli. I should be flogged and hung by my thumbs in a dungeon for the rest of the Obama administration, especially because your responses had been so respectful, had demonstrated such a willingness to engage in a reasonable debate. Oh, but wouldn't work because I'm only capable of sanctimony and rhetorical insults.

If I'm out of line, then I don't ever want to be in line.




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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Maybe
it's just your reading comprehension. :hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. As someone who has no difficulty with the abstract, the philosophical
or the professorial, I respectfully disagree.

Characterizing imperialism as a burden, for example, is not profound. It's a cliche, a hackneyed excuse that belongs nowhere near our transformational president if he's to keep that title. And this speech was packed with similar unfortunate statements.

Obama needs to fire his speech writers or editors immediately, imo. They are doing him a disservice.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:46 PM
Original message
Characterizing this conflict as imperialism is not profound.
Or intellectually honest.
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Duende azul Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
31. The war was planned before nineeleven
Tell me how this is not about imperialism.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Doesn't Obama write most of his own speeches?
What are you trying to say here? :D
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I don't know. I know that during the campaign he did write
some of his own speeches and he's probably a better writer than his writing team. Who knows what he has time to do now.

But someone isn't doing their job. As a technician, that's what I'm mostly trying to say. :)
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Politics_Guy25 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I understand your point
I just meant more broadly though. Generally, any political trouble the President may be having is coming from the right and they are most certainly not abstract or professorial to say the least. If only they understood what he was trying to do, not what Fox News tells them he's trying to do.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. but really- how much longer does the u.s. get to take credit for defeating hitler in ww2..?
the soviets no longer exist, so obviously they had nothing to do with it.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. k - are you serious? do you really think that was all the
speech was about?

WWII was used as an example in different ways - one was to illustrate when it becomes necessary to engage in war, but also to illustrate how we as a planet of nations have successfully progressed to avoid another WWII.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. People are great at glomming onto single words or phrases in these, aren't they?
Getting flashbacks to everyone who was outraged that Obama used the term "9/11" more than zero times in his Afghanistan address.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. That speech and this speech both sound as though they were written
by the same writer or writers.

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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. yes, because i mentioned one line of the speech, obviously i think that's all it's about...
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 12:15 AM by dysfunctional press
:eyes:
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. Because they did.
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 02:59 AM by anonymous171
Although the Soviets did play a major part. Ironically, it was the alliance between the mongrel nation and the "inferior" Slavic nation that resulted in the superior Aryan nation's defeat.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. I just caught part of it and I was entranced -- Excellent speech (I guess they
call it a lecture) and he only a few politically-sounding statements.

The audience was REALLY listening to what he had to say.
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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. The audience was listening
with rapt skepticism!

Rove said that the speech could have been written by Bush's writers. Now isn't that a special compliment? Each day, the repugs like this guy more.

It's nice to know that evil exists and that means god has an opposite, which is a ridiculous notion for a Christian like Obama. How many presidents will talk about evil and 9/11 until the people wake up?

I guess he forgot to mention the war in Pakistan..you know, the secret one.

(I can't make that sarcasm thingie) :-)
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
43. And you actualy believe him? n/t
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. What do you care what I do or don't believe? Don't use me to get your jabs in, please. nt
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 12:44 PM by gateley
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. i replied to tan guera who seemed to put more faith in Rove's words
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Oh -- I'm so sorry! I was still in my knee-jerk reaction-to-tan guera mode --
And I of course agree with your sentiment -- believe Rove???

Again, many pardons. :pals:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. Why would I care what Rove says? Why would you? And...
you don't need the :sarcasm: thingy. Your message comes through loud and clear.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&R - it was an incredible speech. n/t
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
32. nice speech from a president that wages wars with the blood of a bankrupt nation.
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 12:38 AM by madrchsod
our blood and money spent to defend oil and gas pipelines to the easr and europe.

when i see a homeless vietnam veteran and see the label printed "made in vietnam" i know it was`t worth the blood of my generation.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
33. KnR, Politics Guy. It's a distinct pleasure to read your thoughtful post...
... and, I might add, a relief after wading through the deep bitterness and resentment so resoundingly represented here at DU.

I did not know that David Brooks had that exchange with Obama about the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr. (How different from Bush the Useless's snap statement that his favorite philosopher was Jesus! And Palin, asked about Niebuhr, would no doubt spend the next 6 years whining about gotcha media questions.) Obama is as deep as Bush is shallow.

On the news tonight someone tried to say that the speech was a hodgepodge that didn't hang together, but earlier today I listened to the whole thing (albeit in four YouTube pieces) and followed along with the transcript. The speech is like Obama: complex and subtle, and in it he works out what I am sure will be soon known as the Obama Doctrine. Once again, he calls Americans ourselves to adhere to international laws:

> Most important, he said, all nations must "adhere to standards that govern the use of force." This is for practical as well as moral reasons. First, "America cannot insist that others follow the rules of the road if we refuse to follow them ourselves." Second, the failure to follow these stands can make our action "appear arbitrary" and "undercut the legitimacy of future interventions, no matter how justified." >snip<

That's a rebuke to the Bush Doctrine, as is the primacy of diplomatic initiatives:

> "The promotion of human rights cannot be about exhortation alone. … I know that engagement with repressive regimes lacks the satisfying purity of indignation," but "sanctions without outreach—and condemnation without discussion—can carry forward a crippling status quo. No repressive regime can move down a new path unless it has the choice of an open door."

Kaplan, the author, ends with this:

>"There is no simple formula here," Obama summarized. And that's the point. His speech, like Niebuhr's writing, reflects an active awareness of humanity's ideals but also its imperfections—of our reach and our limits.
It's unclear how Obama, as president, will deal with the tensions and contradictions. But it's good to know that he knows they exist. >snip<
http://www.slate.com/id/2238081

Hekate
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
35. Yeah, Endless War For No Apparent Reason!!!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
37. As the Justice Department defends the actions of John Yoo.........
:puke:
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
39. In a nutshell - "war is good for peace" // he should not have accepted, imho
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 02:45 AM by grahamhgreen
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
40. The ideals of liberty, self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced.
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 02:49 AM by anonymous171
Much to the chagrin of the elites, I might add. In fact, those very same elites are the ones pushing for these two endless wars, just like they pushed for Vietnam back in the 60s. It's all the same fucking shit.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. Accepting peace prize, Obama makes case for unending war
In the most bellicose Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech within living memory, President Barack Obama made an argument Thursday in Oslo for ever-widening war and neo-colonial occupation, putting the world on notice that the American ruling elite intends to push ahead with its drive for global domination.

Obama defended his dispatch of tens of thousands more US troops to Afghanistan, and ominously referred to Iran, North Korea, Somalia, Darfur in Sudan, Congo, Zimbabwe and Burma, any or all of which may become targets for future American military intervention.

There was a darkly farcical element to the award ceremony, as Obama acknowledged that he is the “Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars.” He presented war as a legitimate means of pursuing national interests.

In Orwellian fashion, he declared that “the instruments of war do have a role to play in preserving the peace,” that “all responsible nations must embrace the role that militaries with a clear mandate can play to keep the peace,” and that imperialist troops should be honored “not as makers of war, but as wagers of peace.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/dec2009/pers-d11.shtml
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
44. Outstanding speech. I agree it ranks second only to the Phila. speech.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
45. Funny, but I heard more people say the exact opposite of your OP.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
46. Yes, it was a well-written speech, and the man...
has a talent for speechifying. But he's still sending the working class to fight for the "vital national interest" of a political and economic elite. He still supported a military coup in Honduras. He is still following the USA Patriot Act. He is working to excuse members of the Bush/Cheney Administration from investigation and prosecution for torture. He made a deal with Big Pharma that would keep them paying high prices for medications. He appointed nothing but foxes to guard the economic chicken coop.

Let's face it, there's a lot to be disappointed about.

Love and hate is a false dichotomy. There's a lot of room between those two extremes. I don't get this simpleminded all-or-nothing stuff.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
49. Neo liberal philosopher statesman. nt
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
50. A "Pro-Obama" thread on DU? Well.. that deserves an Un-Rec right there...
/sarcasm off.

Seriously - this guy gives another fantastic speech, makes a very good case for our current efforts - and yet everyone on DU puts their fingers in their ears and starts screaming "LALALALA I can't hear you" un-rec, un-rec, un-rec.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #50
62. Not everyone
I thought it was a great speech and said so below. The lalala'ers be damned - that act is getting old.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
51. Time and time again...
.... Obama is good at talking and nothing else.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
52. The speech was fine. It's his Afghanistan policy I find lacking.
I don't disagree with his general statements regarding the role that war can play. I disagree that Afghanistan is one such instance.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. That's par for the course.
His speeches are always good. They always include some great general statements, and are too frequently WRONG on policy.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
56. "The Holy Roman Empire," quipped Voltaire, was "neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire"
nt
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. I listened to the entire speech on NPR last night
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 12:49 PM by HughMoran
I agree with their post analysis - Obama didn't make excuses or shirk from his responsibilities. He didn't apologize for Afghanistan, he OWNED it. This was a great speech - I advise all critics to first listen to it IN IT's ENTIRETY before passing judgment. It isn't a speech that one should leave up to the pundits to interpret for you - this was a historical speech. Listen to it.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
63. Oh, great, another glowing report about another beautiful speech. You know, during the
primaries, when Hillary Clinton made that remark about Obama offering nothing more than "a speech he made in 2004", I despised her for it because it was a cheap shot. I'm somewhat chastened to have to admit she was right.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. She was right because he rode that speech to the WH. I read the Peace Prize speech
and found one small quote at the end that was not about WAR, which the entire rest of the speech was... there were passages about King and Ghandi, but the qualifier and the Yet or But or However interconnected the entire series of passages.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
64. K&R
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
66. The conservatives are absolutely giddy over his speech. Nuff said nt
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
68. I'm tired of great speeches. I voted for change, not talk.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
71. Excuse if I find the speech a little gauche,
But I think that trying to justify an illegal, immoral war during your Peace Prize acceptance speech, especially for a prize you don't deserve is rather tacky to say the least.

Nobody doubts that Obama is a smooth talker, it's his actions that are the problem.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. How exactly was this war illegal?
We were in the country with the explicit permission of the legal government of said country.
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
72. I'd trade 100 philosophical speeches...
...for some twisting of arms in Congress to actually accomplish Democratic party goals.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Exactly
All this talk about a speech isn't important. We need to start making some accomplishments for the American people.
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