Fast-growing Christian churches crushed in China

[mayya]

From AP today:
LINFEN, China — Towering eight stories over wheat fields, the Golden Lamp Church was built to serve nearly 50,000 worshippers in the gritty heart of China's coal country.

But that was before hundreds of police and hired thugs descended on the mega-church, smashing doors and windows, seizing Bibles and sending dozens of worshippers to hospitals with serious injuries, members and activists say.

Today, the church's co-pastors are in jail. The gates to the church complex in the northern province of Shanxi are locked and a police armored personnel vehicle sits outside.

The closure of what may be China's first mega-church is the most visible sign that the communist government is determined to rein in the rapid spread of Christianity, with a crackdown in recent months that church leaders call the harshest in years.

link to rest of AP article

-----------------------------------------

With our indebtedness to China, does it make it impossible for us to denounce this sort of thing? What is the appropriate U.S. reaction?

[cliffordu]

1. YAWN. IBTL

[Rage for Order]

131. Why would this thread get locked?

I'm curious as to why you think this thread would qualify as flamebait or something else deserving of being locked?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

149. Me Too

[anonymous171]

2. .

This is going to be good.

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anonymous171]

4. Religious freedom is for suckers. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. applauding repression and totalitarianism is not something progressives and liberals do

do we lock up the 90% of Americans who believe in God or the 70% of Americans who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

[Submariner]

10. We don't need to lock up anybody

I found out after the fact (12 years of nuns), that religious indoctrination was a bad thing. I look at the christian/catholic program of forcing me to believe in imaginary sky people when I was a kid as a violation of my civil rights. If this sky god stuff was not stuffed down our gullets then religion/christianity would eventually fade away faster than it is devolving now.

My point is that China has a chance now to stop christianity and that world of make-believe from poisoning their population, so power to them for recognizing the evils of the god stuff before it takes root.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Black/white

'so power to them for recognizing the evils of socialism before it takes root.'

So sayeth the flock.

:eyes:

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. there has never been a society in the history of the world that attempted to eradicate religion

that was not a completely and utterly totalitarian order - not one.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. It doesn't happen often...

...but we are in agreement!

:thumbsup:

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. yeah, kind of scary isn't it ?

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Stranger things have happened!

:)

[Submariner]

19. You are absolutely correct

If China is the first...so be it. If not...then, so be it.

I am just projecting that in my Liberal fantasy world I would like to have grown up in a United States, or world for that matter, that did not dwell on the thought of some person living in the sky that made them 6,000 years ago and supposedly condones or blesses their deeds, like war mongering, racism, or sexism that is so prevalent today.

I would like to have seen an evolution of society based on reality and fact. When the make believe world of gods gets thrown into the equation, we end up living like we are, and we probably could have done much better if the word 'god' was never invented or got into the dictionary.

But christianity, as debilitating as it is, is our reality so I have to deal with it and adapt because it is there. China has a chance to avoid dealing with that fantasy world, so again, power to them if they can duck dealing with the Ratzingers, Dobbins, and Robertsons of the world.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. What next...Kristalnacht? Or, whatever it may be in Chinese?

I don't often side with him, but I hope DC really puts your ignorant post to shame!

[Violet_Crumble]

21. There's nothing liberal about a world where people are forced to not be religious...

I've been an atheist ever since I can remember, and to live in a world where people are forced to not be religious is as horrifying a thought as a world where I'd be forced to be religious. What's wrong with live and let live? I've got no problem with people being religious as long as they don't try and shove it down my throat and in return I won't shove my atheism down their throats. I think anyone who thinks that they have a right to shove their belief or lack of it on everyone else is pretty intolerant, and that applies to both religious folk and atheists...

There's nothing at all commendable about what the Chinese govt is doing to Christians and their religious stuff. It's persecution and just another bunch of human rights violations to chalk up to the Chinese govt.

[Submariner]

29. I've been an atheist ever since I can remember

You have made my point. Thanks.

I would like to have been able to say that, but I didn't have a FREE CHOICE. Within my first 20 years of life I was subjected to the religious brainwashing I'm admonishing here. You must have missed out on that crappy life experience. The damage is done when the god stuff is imposed on the infant through adolescence when one does not know better.

Going through 20 years of make believe god gibberish was a colossal waste of time when I would rather have spent my time focused on what I wanted to be and do the rest of my life. I would have much rather spent my time studying the natural sciences, as I did later, rather than being told about some old geezer getting commandment tablets by a burning bush, or the fact that all non-catholics will burn in the flames of hell for eternity, or how god put the dinosaur bones in the ground to fool scientists into thinking they are older than 6,000 years.

Those church teachings are absolute bullshit, so I'm against exposing people to that kind of BS if it can be avoided so that they do not have to experience the same waste of time that I did. Of course I don't condone the commie Chinese government violence, it's too bad christianity leaked into the country in the first place. I hope that a more non-violent solution to ending the world of make believe can be achieved.

[Owl]

47. +1

[leftynyc]

79. Don't blame the churches

Blame your parents (or whoever raised you). My parents never forced me to attend religious services or school and let me decide for myself about religion. The churches are doing their job and your parents were doing theirs. That anyone can defend what happend in China is astonishing.

[brendan120678]

85. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that...

the United States government forced you to go to Catholic school at gunpoint.

By the way - I know of no Catholics or any other Christians really who think that God lives "in the sky." Calling God "sky-god" is just a pathetic attempt by atheists to try and demean those who do believe in God.

[mamaleah]

98. Your parents =/= the government

Mama and Daddy made you go to Sunday school, not the President.

So if you want to grind your axe, it's with them not the government.

There is nothing acceptable about government banning religion. That's not very liberal, it's more fascist.

[Violet_Crumble]

118. I haven't made yr point at all. Yr stance revolts me...

I hate to be blunt, but cry me a river of tears. My parents used to force me and my siblings to go to church, and they did wrong in doing that. But I haven't reacted to it by turning round and thinking it's okay to force my views on religious folk - I've done what I hope most people would do and I've ensured that my daughter has total freedom of choice to decide for herself when it comes to religion...

I see no difference between yr stance and that of religious extremists who want to force us to live by their religious views....

[Rage for Order]

133. You obviously weren't raised Catholic

You should look up the RCC's official position on evolution. I'll give you a hint: they don't think the earth is only 6,000 years old. And in my 9 years of Catholic school, not once was I ever told that Catholicism was the only true way, and all others would burn in the flames of hell for eternity. In fact, the nuns said that people didn't even have to go to church, that as long as people were essentially good they could still go to heaven. Imagine that.

"Of course I don't condone rape, it's too bad she dressed like a slut in the first place"

:eyes:

[JNelson6563]

64. Force not to be religious

No one is born religious, we are born non-religious. If magical thinking is never introduced is that "being forced to not be religious"?

You paint a happy picture where it's all live and let live. Too bad far too many believers find that intolerable.

Julie

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. as do some nonbelievers as we can see on this thread even on a liberal forum

Given that some kind of religious belief system has been universal and indiginous to every culture in the recorded history of the world - we have to surmise that for whatever reasons it is a natural part of the human condition.

There has never been a society in the history of the world that attempted to eradicate religion
that was not a completely and utterly totalitarian order - not one.

[JNelson6563]

69. Fear of death and mankind's vanity.

These are the two timeless selling points. Of course religion is especially handy for the uneducated or intellectually lazy too for explaining unknowns. Mostly though, I suspect it's the death thing. The remarks by believers that atheists must live in a very dark and scary world, with nothing to look forward to after living life, go a long way in explaining things.

But again, my original point, no one is born believing any of this magical stuff: mankind has a secret, invisible immortal part that lives on when the body dies being the main one. It is fed to us when we are very young. Often forced upon people (children). That goes on day after day. Wish I saw some outcry over that. Not that I agree with what China is doing, I think it's terrible! But still, you never hear outcry over all those poor children being force fed this magical nonsense.

Julie

[TxRider]

77. Too many non believers find that intolerable as well.

[Violet_Crumble]

119. There's a thing called freedom of religion that I support 100%

Human rights organisations like Amnesty International invest a lot of time and energy into opposing actions by govts like the Chinese one that restrict or ban religion..

So what if no-one's born religious? No-one's born left-wing either, but I'm sure you'd be voicing strong opposition to any attempt by a govt to violently repress left-wing politics and its supporters, which isn't what yr doing when it comes to repression of Christianity in China..

[JNelson6563]

148. You don't know what I'm doing.

Frankly the only thing I'm "voicing strong opposition to" in regards to China is how much we owe them. That horrifies me.

As to what all is going on there, be it in regard to Christianity or left-wing politics, I don't pay a whole lot of attention.

Any other divinations you'd like to share with the group?

Julie

[snake in the grass]

94. That was my first thought as well.

When I read Mega-Church, I envisioned the Chinese version of Hagee, Haggard, or Warren; hatemongers, who dupe their dronelike followers for every cent they have. The U.S. would indeed be a better, more enlightened place if these individuals (and countless others like them) had not been allowed to fester for so long. We are now reaping the rewards for that well-intended tolerance. If the Chinese can control the spread of this cancer within their society, more power to them. In my liberal handbook there's nothing about letting criminals have free reign to do as they please.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. Are People That Go To Large Churches And Those That Lead Them Criminals?

At what point is a church too large that its leaders and members are to be arrested?

50?

100?

1000?

5,000?

[snake in the grass]

108. There is no magical number.

I don't necessarily think the number is important. The actions, however, are. Hagee, Haggard, Robertson, Hinn, Falwell, Graham, Anderson, Roberts, Swaggart, Dobson, Warren (the list is sadly endless) are criminal hucksters, who have done great damage to this country, while robbing their sheep and living like maggots in bacon. If the Chinese want to prevent that, more power to them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

126. The one church I attended in China had thousands of members but was

not a fundie megachurch. It was founded by mainline Protestant missionaries (Methodist or Presbyterian) and was sort of generic Protestant, but nothing that you wouldn't find at any mainline church in the U.S.

[mayya]

138. The Chinese govt is now cracking down on all sizes of Churches.

The article mentions the one "mega-church," but other articles say there is a big campaign now going after many churches of all sizes. It is very brutal.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

140. Christ Said "Whenever Two Or More Are Gathered In My Name I Am In The Midst."

~

[Lydia Leftcoast]

124. Well, I'm a mainstream Christian and I'd like to see the fundies

accept science and reject war and racism, too.

[Dorian Gray]

25. I've gone to Catholic schools....

there is no forcing of one to believe in "sky people." Or God.

[Submariner]

33. Then you obviously

never attended the archdiocese of Boston schools in the '50s/'60s where the belief in god was FORCED.

And as we sadly found out only a few years ago, the power of the christian/catholic god in many archdiocese parishes gave pedophiles sway over god-fearing children who were raped and molested at their hands. I am glad I was not one of them, but many suffered because the clergy scares people into believing the god myths.

[Dorian Gray]

122. No, I didn't....

I did teach at North Cambridge Catholic High School in 1993. No forcing of anything at that time. (I grew up in Jersey in the late 70s/80s.... no forcing of anything then, either.)

Times change, and Catholic schools don't require their students to be Catholic anymore.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. What Other Forms Of Popular Expression Would You Like To Outlaw?

It's ironic that the same society has a firewall that prevents its citizens from websites with any kind of unapproved political or social content.

Here's their firewall. Maybe DU is on it:


http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. So which nuns indoctrinated the Chinese?

Most of those people were converted as adults.

[Rage for Order]

132. Yours is quite possibly the dumbest comment ever posted on DU

And possibly the entire internet. I'm guessing you still believe in "imaginary sky people" since you were "forced" to do so as a child. I'm not sure how anyone can force you what to think. You can be forced to go to church, forced to go through the motions, but how are you forced to think anything?

Your post is already incredibly stupid, and we haven't even gotten to the part about "power to them for recognizing the evils of the god stuff before it takes root." As though there was no "god stuff" or religion in China prior to Christianity.

:eyes:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

136. Because of course, putting faith in the Chinese government is a much better idea (n/m)

[proteus_lives]

141. So you'd get rid of freedom of religion?

What a good little fundie you are.

[spoony]

7. Wow. An ACTUAL fascist. What a nutter.

[uberllama42]

8. Yeah--fuck the First Amendment!

The worst thing that ever happened to this country was freedom of expression.

There's still time to repeal the First Amendment, and then we can send the Jesus Police into people's houses to make sure they're not praying or believing in things that don't exist. That's the America I want to live in.

[Dorian Gray]

24. So we cheer on

oppression now?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostInAnomie]

5. I wonder if Rick Warren will give a shit about this kind of oppression.

[Kurt Remarque]

9. i wonder what the "golden lamp church" is about

doesn't seem like the oppressed coal workers would have demanded a gigantic church in the middle of mining country

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. Actually, oppressed coal miners may be flocking to church precisely because

it's a cultural alternative to the rather money-grubbing atmosphere and hypocritical lip-service to Communism that prevails in China today.

That was the type of environment that Pope John Paul came out of, only in his case it was coal miners in Poland.

[laughingliberal]

12. Am not Christian but I do believe people should be able to practice or not practice religion as they

see fit. Am as opposed to violations of people's right to express their religious beliefs as I am to attempts to force me to believe and live by someone else's beliefs.

[Jamastiene]

22. That makes more sense.

People should be allowed to believe what they want to believe...or not believe in anything, if they do not want to believe.

[pa28]

15. Funny how they operate.

It seems like anything goes in China regardless of the written law unless it runs counter to the current objectives of the government or those in positions of influence.

In that case they write the "really real" laws with public examples and crackdowns. I can't stand religion for profit but this is just sad. As you pointed out our indebtedness to the Chinese and our need for continued debt financing pretty much guarantees the US will keep it's mouth shut about such things in the future.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Religious Freedom Was Also Part Of The Soviet Constitution

~

[JCMach1]

17. You are FREE to buy,

that is all

[elocs]

23. Crushing Christian churches should get applause here at DU

although it didn't work out so well at the beginning of the first century.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Sarcasm?

Or a comment on something else?

[elocs]

27. Nope, but if you've been here since 2004 you know the DU attitude toward Christianity.

Not all Christians are the same, neither are all Jews or Muslims and neither does one group represent all of them. Historically, trying to crush Christianity has not worked well and neither has it worked well for Judaism either.

Here at DU the venom and vitriol of the bigoted haters of the Christian right is only equaled by those who claim to hate them. Poison is poison.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Oh, gotcha!

Fully agree!

Had to check though. I thought it might be another "those poor persecuted Christians" posts.

[elocs]

32. I don't believe in persecution or that it ultimately achieves its goal.

Those who do wrong should be called on it, but rarely does one group represent the whole, especially when it comes to things like major world religions. Even for myself I would not want to be held up to represent all Democrats.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Well said. I agree, again.

We shall see how this thread progresses. So far, I think it has been more positive than expected.

[rd_kent]

152. NO, poison is NOT poison.....

The hate, venom and vitriol of the religious right is not the same as those that oppose them and their agenda. The religous right is a DANGEROUS fringe that needs to be closely monitored and controlled, becase if they had it their way, NO ONE would be free to do what they wanted.

Show me someone here on DU that opposes the religious right that also want to ABOLISH religion of any kind with law.

[Selatius]

31. China should simply tax the churches and separate religion and the state formally...permanently.

Any religion can become totalitarian if allowed to gain governmental power.

What the Chinese regime is doing is beyond tolerable, and it only guarantees that Christianity will spread. It is stupidity on the Chinese regime's part.

[parts]

35. china's falling apart.

There's way too much internal pressure, the whole thing is a facade.

Once the 8% growth is gone... *snap*, house of cards. And we'd do well to have prepared for the eventuality.

[Nikki Stone1]

127. I'd love a link on this. China is undervaluing its currency right now.

...

[parts]

135. numerous.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/specials/Newsweek26oct.pdf

Newsweek, "Everything You Know about China is Wrong" (just the title, I think linking the entire article is copyright violation)

http://www.newsweek.com/id/131751

Newsweek, "Don't Feed Chinese Nationalism"

I'd like to link the Economist as well, but I can't for the life of me understand their system.

Believe me though, China as we know it is going to change, very hard, very fast. I'm Chinese, and can explain further if you want.

edit: Incidentally, currency undervaluation has nothing to do with political stability, so I'm a bit puzzled by your post there. :S

[AngryAmish]

36. Chinese Communist Party knows China's history

1. Chinese communist party is a dynasty just like the previous ones. Hereditary, run by the educated class etc. Not 100% on but they rule as such.

2. CCP wants stability over all else. They could not keep power (and peace) without growth, so they went capitalistic. But the capitalists must stay in line and not challenge the government.

3. Chinese history is replete with charismatic religious movements that veer toward revolution. Boxer Rebellion (which left millions dead, not just s siege on some westerners in Peking) only being the most familiar in the west. There have been others that helped topple dynasties. And when a dynasty topples, civil wars kill millions.

4. CCP can't control these churches, so they crush them before they get too big. The waited too long with Falun Gong and they still are dealing with that.

5. Is it moral to do this? From their point of view - not only moral but responsible. To us, with our tradition, no. Should we squawk? Sure, why not?

[eShirl]

74. "But the capitalists must stay in line and not challenge the government. "

Good luck with that one, China!

[Sebastian Doyle]

110. The Chinese government knows how to deal with predatory capitalists.

Those guys who made the poison dog food? Dead.

The guys who made the baby formula with Melamine? Dead.

I believe they have executed several corporate criminals in a similar fashion.

I don't agree with the suppression of religion, but I have to admit they know how to handle corporate criminals. :evilgrin:

[psychopomp]

78. Having trouble with point number one

In what way is the party hereditary? Mind you, historically, the Chinese imperial system was run by bureaucrats who were selected in open, regional tests. Those who performed the best were allowed to join the government. I've seen the room in the Forbidden City where they took the final exam in the presence of the emperor.

I don't know the biographies of the elite in China's leadership but was not under the impression that they'd been "grandfathered in."

[AngryAmish]

91. Many of the elite in business and other endeavors are called princelings

Sons and daughters of CCP elite members. You can't get anywhere in life in China nowadays without political pull and taking on "partners" who are related to CCP members. Also, maybe I was a little unclear in the sense that one never gets ahead in elite universities without being a CCP member (or son of one).

Your point on the current elite not being grandfathered in is well taken, but the dynasty is only fifty years old or so! Give them time!

[The Magistrate]

158. Very Sensible And Informed Comments, Sir

Allow me to amplify a little on the particular case of Christianity in China. For us in the modern West, in a society long steeped in Christianity, it is difficult to appreciate the degree to which Christian belief has seemed, and been, a threatening and dangerous and wholly foreign item in other places.

Even the earliest appearance of Christianity in China was associated with foreign conquerors, namely the Mongol Yuan dynasty, which was toppled by a nativist revolution that established the Ming dynasty. In the latter stages of this dynasty, a small contingent of diplomat-missionaries was tolerated at court, in part because of technical expertise they provided in the founding of cannon, but it was kept under strict control as a heterodox sect.

The first mass exposure of China to Christianity was in the early nineteenth century, when illegal missionary tracts gave rise to the Taiping Rebellion, probably the single greatest episode of war ever in China, a murderous chaos that may well have killed as many people as the Second World War in its entirety. It was only the military power of Western governments that forced the Chinese to allow missionary activity in the wake of this catastrophe.

In the latter nineteenth century, Christianity, under the patronage of Western military power, became an explicitly anti-government structure. Disputes involving Christians had always to be settled in favor of the Christians against the orthodox, or military or financial pressure would be brought by Western governments against the authorities. Indeed, this was one of the chief grievances underlaying the popular 'Righteous Fists' movement known to the West as the Boxer Rebellion.

During the War Lord period and the Civil War earlier in the twentieth century, Christian missionary activity retained this close association with Western power, and politically came to be closely associated with the Nationalist Party leadership, chief enemy of the eventually victorious Communists.

In light of all this, it is hardly surprising the present, Communist-based leadership looks with a jaundiced eye on any wide expansion of Christian belief. The methods it has generally adopted for control, licensing of official sects and proscription of activity which lacks an official stamp of approval, is pretty much the same means by which the old Imperial government dealt with heterodox sects, such as various of-shoots of Buddhism and Taoism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I Pray Nobody At DU Is Applauding These Actions

I don't think anybody would want to live in a society where popular expression is violently extinguished.

[timo]

43. I agree

But that prayer goes un answered. God haters are the majority here.

[Douglas Carpenter]

51. actually they are in the minority - according to a DU poll 29% identify as atheist

link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x87200

and I'm sure the obnoxious comments come from a small minority of them who are just loud and fundamentalist and utterly intolerant in their particular brand of atheism. In fact I cannot help but think that those who start frothing at the mouth at the mention of religion are just as insecure in their disbelief as some fundamenalist are in their belief.

After all, most genuine atheist I know in ordinary life never insist that everyone has to march lock step to their particular party line. It's just a very loud minority of atheist who have that attitude. The funny thing about it is that while that small loud minority claims that they are basing their thinking on reason - they are so full of anger that they are just as unreasonable, just as intolerant and just as anti-intellectual as the most raving fundies.

BTW: although I do not identify myself as an atheist. I am not the least bit of religious person. I just don't see a problem with discussing it rationally, fair mindedly and respecting those who differ.

[timo]

121. you may be right

but it sure seems like there is more than that, a witch in Penn. runs afoul of the law and they scream how dare anyone question wicca/paganism as a legitamate religion, and call for her RIGHTS to be upheld, but if a christian says anything its damn near a burn the fundie fest, just kinda grinds old after a while!! seems as tho they forget whats good for the goose is good for the gander as well.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. I Don't Want To Call Folks Names

That just makes the situation worse. And why are the Communists worried about Christians. The early Christians were pure , small c, communists:

Acts of the Apostles -Chapter 2

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things in common. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Sounds just like Marx:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

[brendan120678]

90. Only difference is that passage is about...

a small group of people choosing to live in that manner, not an entire government system forcing all citizens to live that way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Exactly

But even Engels refers to the early Christian communes in his writing.

I'm not advocating it for an entire nation but as a voluntrary form of organization I think it's great.

Interestingly, they had collectives in Israel but they never became popular.

[JNelson6563]

65. lolz And santa haters too!

People do not hate what they do not believe in. Nor do they fear, love, get jealous of or anything else, something they don't believe in. Why is this so very hard for some believers to grasp?

Julie

[Obamanaut]

68. It's happening down-thread. Not really surprising. n/t

[LynneSin]

87. I agree with you 100%

The beautiful of a truly free society is one where people may express their religion peacefully and as they deem best for themselves. And also in a way that does not impact others in a negative way.

What happened in China is horrible. Nuff said.

[dysfunctional press]

156. if you don't like it- protest with your pocketbook.

if i were a concerned christian, i would probably never buy another thing that's made in china.

but you have to decide for yourself how important it is to you.

[earth mom]

39. Christianity isn't being spread rapidly-but rather it is being pushed upon vulnerable people

in 3rd world countries by militant fundies on their "missions".

Who the hell do they think they are pushing their beliefs on others?!

They need to leave people alone! :grr:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. That's actually not the case in China

Missionaries are not permitted in China.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. Please Don't Confuse The Poster With Facts

~

[proteus_lives]

142. Wow. Did you even read the article?

Or did just hear the word Christian and start spitting venom?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. that's exactly what Pol Pot and Joe Stalin said....

in so many words

Those of us who believe in freedom and human rights see it differently.


I don't see how we will ever build a progessive majority in America by excluding 90% of Americans

[NNN0LHI]

42. File this one under none of our business

I remember when China used to have more Catholic priests in jail than we do now. No president would ever mention China without mentioning the fate if the incarcerated priests.

Now that we have more in jail than they do no president mentions it any more.

Don

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Was The Holocaust Any Of Our Business?

Dr. King said "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere."

[NNN0LHI]

48. Are you familiar with the history of religion in China?

I really recommend reading up on it if you haven't.

Don

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. You Mean Like Opposing The Practice Of Foot Binding

Or opposing the unjust treatment of maidservants.


I just don't think bulldozing houses of worship, be they synagagues, mosques, or churches is a progressive thing to do.

[NNN0LHI]

71. Dig deeper

Taiping Rebellion

[crazyjoe]

45. could they do the same for us?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Maybe They Should Skip The Foreplay And Go Straight To The Camps And Crematoriums?

~

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Do You Applaud Beating Up People And Breaking Their Things Because You Don't Like Their Beliefs?

The same power can ultimately be used against you and me.

[TankLV]

58. Tell it to the GBLT in Uganda - brought to you by the fucking "mega churches"...

I don't like HATE and the KILLING that comes with it.

You're aparently comfortable with that...

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. this church in China has absolutely nothing to do with what it happening in Uganda.. nothing

Is there one single society in the world that bans religious freedom but grants rights to gay people? I don't think so!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. Indeed, your broad brush is disgusting

You're including churches that DO grant equal rights to GLBT people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Respectfully, That's A Strawman

I said I don't believe in beating up people and breaking their things. I think upon reading that statement most folks would infer that I extend that protection to everybody regardless of their race, sex, sexual orientation, et cetera.

[RoadRage]

88. So let me get this straight...

You oppose HATE in Uganda for the GLBT community, but you're OK with HATE in China based on Religion?

Got it. And people say that Libs can be such fucking hypocrites... where do they get such nonsense. Oh. Wait. :eyes:

[Douglas Carpenter]

55. that's right liberals should support repression and totalitarianism

that will really win us support with the more than 70% of Americans who identify themselves as Christian

[DainBramaged]

56. DU, the place for repression, nannyism, and preventing the poor from drinking soda.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I Don't Think Most Agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Et Cetera

would approve of thugs beating up Christians and breaking their things.

Some of these people remind me of the Jacobins. If there was ever a revolution in this country and they took power some of the people we consider friends would be in the guillotines.

[TankLV]

60. Sorry, but that pales when compared to spreading HATRED and the MURDER of INNOCENTS

Just ask the "C Street" crowd - brought to you by those "wonderful" mega churches...!!!


Best to KILL THEM (these church start-ups) BEFORE THEY DO MORE DAMAGE only I don't know how much worse damage they can do...;

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. do you have any evidence that this church in China supports any of that?

[proteus_lives]

143. The fascist rises in you.

"I don't like it so I want it destroyed!"

You have become what you claim to hate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. I Agree But Tolerance Should Be More Than A Political Tactic

~

[Douglas Carpenter]

115. of course, that goes without saying - or should go without saying

but I think people who are so hostile should still be reminded that their attitude would make building a progressive majority absolutely 100% mathematically impossible. Far from disabling the religious right, their attitude would absolutely guarantee impenetrable and permanent right-wing dominance in America forever - a permanent and impenetrable dominance lead by the religious right.

[Festivito]

76. So, what's the difference between you and hate mongers you decry?

You seem to have hate mongering in common with them.

Maybe things in life are not a black and white distinct in the world as they seem inside your mind.

[chrisa]

82. Wow. What twisted logic.

I forsee a padlock on this thread in the future, unfortunately, by no fault of the OP.

[The Straight Story]

92. If you want to end hate mongering, start with yourself (nt)

[Pavulon]

57. Depressing to read responses

I would self classify as more of an agnostic than anything else at this point but not being allowed to worship by a government is not acceptable. It does not agree with my core values and is , in a word, just wrong.

To the OP, china is our debt bitch, like japan and germany have been and still are. It is not a new position. China needs the us market far more than we need anything has now. China is a bodyshop that makes trash. They are making money because they do not safeguard labor or the environment AT ALL.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. I Was Thinking About That

When you owe the bank $1,000.00 they have a problem. When you owe the bank $100,000,000,000.00 they have a problem. You have become too big to fail. America is too big to fail.

As an aside I was watching the Sopranos. Tony owed this guy $300,000.00 and he kept bugging him for it. It got to the point where the guy seriously considered forgiving the debt because he was afraid Tony would kill him rather than pay it.

Same line of thinking.

Tony did end up paying it. It's hard figuring out some people's moral code.

[stray cat]

70. Any DUers who are happy - only believe in freedom for their own ideas

and are no different than Free Republic at its worst in promoting one view point and restricting those they disagree with. Also just as bigoted as those who refuse full rights for some groups of Americans.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. +1

~

[rockymountaindem]

159. I've been looking for the perfect post to agree with, and this is the one

The posts on this thread, some of which were deleted before I could get here, are really disappointing. Having the government break up houses of worship like this is not acceptable to me, and I would have thought better of my fellow liberals. I guess some of them really are that militantly atheist.

[Hubert Flottz]

72. So will the church goers in the US stop buying things made in

China? Will Wally-World Fold?

[Odin2005]

73. I hate religion, but that is just WRONG, period.

The posters that are supporting China's violation of human rights is disgusting.

[hayu_lol]

75. Putting the best face on it...

maybe Fred Phelps will go over to China and protest.

[NNN0LHI]

83. China has been down the woo woo road before. Didn't turn out so good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

Taiping Rebellion

The Taiping Rebellion was a widespread civil war in China from 1850 to 1864, led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan, against the ruling Qing Dynasty. About 25 million people were killed, mainly civilians, in one of the deadliest military conflicts in history.

Hong established the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (Chinese: 太平天國 pinyin: Tàipíng Tiān Guó), officially the "Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace", with its capital at Nanjing. The Kingdom's army controlled large parts of southern China, at its height containing about 30 million people. The rebels attempted social reforms and the replacement of Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion by a form of Christianity. Troops were nicknamed the Long hair (長毛, pinyin: cháng máo). The Taiping areas were besieged by Qing forces throughout most of the rebellion. The Qing government defeated the rebellion with the eventual aid of French and British forces.

In the twentieth century, China's communist leader Mao Zedong glorified the Taipings as early heroic revolutionaries against a corrupt feudal system.

Origins

Hong XiuquanIn the mid-19th century, China under the Qing Dynasty suffered a series of natural disasters, economic problems, and defeats at the hands of the Western powers, in particular, the humiliating defeat in 1842 by the United Kingdom in the First Opium War. The Qing, ethnically Manchu, were seen by much of the Chinese population, majority Han, as ineffective and corrupt foreign rulers. Anti-Manchu sentiment was strongest in the south among the laboring classes, and it was these disaffected who flocked to join the charismatic visionary Hong Xiuquan.

After Hong failed to pass the examinations that would make him one of the elite, he studied the Bible with the help of a Protestant missionary. One day he claimed to have had a vision to the effect that he was the brother of Jesus. After his vision, he felt it was his duty to spread Christianity and overthrow the foreign rule of the Qing. Hong's associate Yang Xiuqing was a former firewood salesman of Guangxi, who claimed to be able to act as a voice of God to direct the people and gain political power.

The sect's power grew in the late 1840s, initially suppressing groups of bandits and pirates, but persecution by Qing authorities spurred the movement into a guerrilla rebellion and then into civil war.

Death toll

Most accurate sources put the total deaths during the fifteen years of the rebellion at about 20 million civilians and soldiers. Some historians estimate the combination of natural disasters together with the political insurrections may have cost as many as 200 million Chinese lives between 1850 and 1865. That figure is generally thought to be an exaggeration, as it is approximately half the estimated population of China in 1851. Modern estimates are that China’s population had been about 410 million in 1850 and, after the Taiping, Nien, Muslim, Panthay, Miao and other smaller rebellions, amounted to about 350 million in 1873. At the Third Battle of Nanking in 1864, more than 100,000 were killed in three days.

The rebellion happened at roughly the same time as the American Civil War. Though almost certainly the largest civil war of the nineteenth century (in terms of numbers under arms), it is debatable whether the Taiping Rebellion involved more soldiers than the Napoleonic Wars earlier in the century, and so it is uncertain whether it should be considered the largest war of the nineteenth century.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Maybe They Should Abolish Communism Because

Maybe they should abolish communism because more people died in The Great Leap Forward And The Cultural Revolution:

The Great Leap Forward

No one is sure exactly how many people perished as a result of the spreading hunger. By comparing the number of deaths that could be expected under normal conditions with the number that occurred during the period of the Great Leap famine, scholars have estimated that somewhere between 16.5 million and 40 million people died before the experiment came to an end in 1961, making the Great Leap famine the largest in world history.

People abandoned their homes in search of food. Families suffered immensely, and reports of that suffering reached the members of the army, whose homes were primarily in rural areas. As soldiers received letters describing the suffering and the deaths, it became harder for leaders to maintain ideological discipline. Chaos developed in the countryside as rural militias became predatory, seizing grain, beating people and raping women. From famine to reform

During the struggle for survival, farmers in nearly one-third of the rural communities took matters into their own hands, abandoning the people's commune in favor of individual farming. Heavy central control was reduced, and the country's agricultural production improved.


http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/960314/china.shtml


The Cultural Revolution

No one knows exactly how many died, but estimates range from hundreds of thousands to 20 million. Hu Yaobang, a former Communist Party chief, was quoting as saying that 1 million people died, but his figure apparently excluded deaths that resulted from fighting between Red Guard factions, which most scholars believed resulted in an additional one million deaths. Most of those who died during the Cultural Revolution died from fighting among Red Guard factions and violence caused by the collapse of government and the absence of police authority.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=68&catid=2

[Stevenmarc]

80. Hey this is a free trade issue, if they get to import their crap we get to export ours.

[SidDithers]

81. I'd be happy to see a world without religion...

but that should happen through education, not through violence.

Sid

[trotsky]

84. What you said.

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

111. +1. nt

[Zynx]

162. I really question the basic idea that the absence of religion promotes domestic or international

peace above where it would be in the presence of religion.

[Raoul]

86. Yeah, right...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Translation: BORING and simply untrue like all the rest of the crap you religionists spew.
If it were true I would say thank God and please bring those commies over here to close all of the clap trap churches in this country.
After all - the churches over here are nothing more than cheerleaders for right wing causes based on all surveys and studies done during the past 8-10 years. Example - 82% of the church people voted FOR Bush a SECOND time. I stress SECOND time because by then all of the lies about Iraq had come out. They ignored everything to vote for the war criminal.

And where were the churches during the illegal invasions of BOTH Iraq and Afghanistan? Huh? Where? Oh yeah I know - they were busy condemning liberals and leftist causes.

I'm SURE you'll be able to refut what I just wrote but I won't hold my breath waiting.

[chrisa]

93. Your logic is scary.

X religion (Christianity in this case) is the cause of all problems in our country, and we should unite to take them down. They deserve it after all! They're all the same! etc. etc.

Scary. Just saying.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. I Think If Some Of These People Came Into Power We Would Be Wallowing In Gulags Or Killed

~

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. My Preacher Married Two Women

And had a big sign in front of her church which said "Rich, poor, black , white, gay, straight... whereever you are on life's journey you're welcome here."

[leftynyc]

89. Those that are applauding

this disgust me. If this was a mosque, the outrage would be deafening because for some reason Islam gets a pass on the blood and death that religion has wrought. The militant atheists are just as repulsive as the militant religionists.

[The Straight Story]

97. hate against christians is good and does not harm anyone, hate is a good thing

Weird, twisted logic of some here - say you hate islam and people will say such hate speech can lead to violence, which leads me to believe that those same people are for violence against christians.

[leftynyc]

114. It's a repulsive double standard

that I see people twisting themselves into knots defending everyday on this board. For the record, I'm neither Christian or Muslim.

[Violet_Crumble]

116. Islam gets a pass? You have to be joking!

Haven't you seen any of the Swiss minaret threads that were floating round? They were full of applauders...

[Douglas Carpenter]

120. you are absolutely right!! Islam does not get a pass here on DU!! That's patently absurd!!

I have repeatedly read post here on DU that are so full of hatred against all Muslims that they sound like they could have been written by Nazi propagandist out of 1930's Europe if one had only changed Muslims for Jews.

Although, I suppose there are some people who view Muslims as a persecuted minority while viewing Christians as an oppressive majority and therefore take a different point of view. However in China, Christians are not an oppressive majority - they in this case being abused as an oppressed and persecuted minority. And they certainly have nothing to do with the antics of extremist fundamentalist in America or Uganda or anywhere else.

The point is not about being pro or anti Christian - or pro or anti Muslim - or pro or anti Religion - or pro or anti Atheist. It is about being pro human rights and pro common human decency - and anti abuse and repression - a position firmly held by all liberals everywhere.

[historian]

99. remember your history

the Chinese experience with Christianity has been as bad the experience felt by the incas, aztecs, africans, hawaiians and so on. Apart from very few real christian folks who have done their best to try and bring a sense of decency to their cause, the church has merely connived with the commercial exploiters and have joined hands in destroying local economies and traditions. What happened in Rwanda? Look it up and see how the church was involved with the wholesale slaughter of one tribe against the other with the help of the churches.
Also dont forget that china was subject to the west selling opium to the chinese, getting them addicted, getting payment in silver which they then used in order to buy tea a hugely profitable market.
As far as china is concerned christianity and the west are one and the same.
And i havent even mentioned the crusades yet!

[mamaleah]

102. Kind of sounds like a Beck or Limbaugh show here. Just replace the religions and

you have the same thing.

"Islam bad" is what they shout though. You are doing the same thing as Limbaugh or Beck when you applaud what's happening in China. That's right, you are about as dumb and piggish as Rush Limbaugh.

[chrisa]

107. Pretty much,

These people can't be serious. This is Free Republic type stuff.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. I Wonder How Many Of These Posters Would Put Believers In Gulags Or Feed Them To The Lions?

~

[tammywammy]

109. +1 n/t

[Romulox]

103. SOS Clinton has made clear that human rights are "off the table" in our talks with China.

:shrug:

[NNN0LHI]

117. That is because we currently have more Catholic priests in prison than they do

Be kind of hypocritical for us to have these types of human rights issues on the table at this stage of the game.

Plus they own us financially.

Don

[Gormy Cuss]

106. The Chinese government has a long record of quashing anything that may cause dissent.

The U.S. government should make a statement showing disappointment not just for this single act but the whole campaign against religious interests. It needn't be a very strong statement since China does not guarantee its citizen religious freedom but clamping down on religious expression is not the only way the government is strong-arming the people in order to maintain power.

[krabigirl]

113. Wow, sounds like what the teabagging Taliban wants to do to non-Christians here.

It's bad either way. My god, live and let live people!!! when will people get that.

[varelse]

125. China doesn't have the equivalent of our 1st Amendment

And no, we are not in a position to respond with much more than a mild expression of dismay.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

137. It's so heartwarming.....

...to watch the radical "anarchists" of DU march lockstep with a totalitarian government when they discriminate against the "right" group.

[Libertas1776]

139. +1

[proteus_lives]

144. +2

[Douglas Carpenter]

146. but fortunately it is a small loudmouth minority of fake liberals

There is no such thing as a liberal or a progressive who applauds this travesty.

Calling themselves liberals or progressives is nothing short of a bald face lie. They are authoritarian, fascist and bigots.

There is no such thing as a good person who would applaud this travesty. They are people of reprehensible moral character and they disgrace this forum.

Fortunately they are a small loudmouth minority.


I am not a religious person and I have spent far more time speaking out against bigotry and hate-mongering against Muslims then Christians.

Those who supports repression of this sort be it against Muslims, Christians, Jews or anyone else are pure evil. They certainly are not liberals - bullshit!! They are enemies of humanity.

[proteus_lives]

145. It's China. So oppression of this kind isn't surprising.

And I expected the rank hate and venom even before I started reading the replies but it still sickens me.

Liberals and progressives my ass. Bigots, fascists and authoritarians that feel safe spitting at Christianity because they're on DU.

[RagAss]

150. The appropriate US reaction is to shut the fuck up !

[Zynx]

151. And the reason for silence is....?

If it's just a "That's none of our business argument" I think I will puke.

[rd_kent]

153. But thats the EXACT reason, its none of our business.

Please explain WHY we should inject ourselves into the runnings of another country.

[Zynx]

154. The rationale for not caring about the goings on in another country is supposedly

that it is the popular will of the people certain actions be undertaken. However, this argument does not hold water in the case of a country like China, Zimbabwe, or North Korea. The people of those countries neither explicitly nor implicitly support policies being undertaken and to the extent those policies infringe on human rights, I think it is the world's business. If a country, even with the backing of the popular will, begins to remove the rights of or starts slaughtering a minority, I think it is the world's business. Here there is an objective case of religious repression that I doubt has the backing of the popular will in China, and even if it did that would be irrelevant.

It is one thing to say that a country's tax and regulatory policies are not our business. However, when there is a fundamental issue of human rights, it is nothing short of callous and, quite frankly, evil to say otherwise.

[rd_kent]

157. Nice try to call me evil.

But no cigar for you. When we have corrected the human rights viloations in THIS country, when we have struck the balance of separation of church and state in THIS country, when we have taken care of the least of us in THIS country, THEN can we start telling other countries what to do. Not a second before.

[Zynx]

160. So, we had no business conducting the Nuremberg trials because we had

segregationist policies at home? I just want to make sure I understand your logic here. Where is your delineation of when our intervention into the internal affairs of other countries is acceptable? I have the funny feeling it is not absolute.

I just find this sort of rationale to be baffling.

[rd_kent]

163. You find it baffling because you are comparing apples to oranges.

But we can just agree to disagree, since this is going to way off topic if I even attempt to respond to your last post.

[Zynx]

166. I don't think we are. You are stating that it is no business of this country

what human rights abuses occur in another country because we don't have a perfect record. However, I don't believe that you would apply a universal standard on this. I want to know where you make the cut off. Does it need to be on the level of genocide for us to care?

Now beyond the level of policy intervention, do you believe that individuals in the United States cannot express outrage over events occurring in other countries? That's all that is happening here so far. There is no talk of a U.S. policy intervention.

[rd_kent]

167. I think you misunderstand me

and it is partially my fault because I do not explain myself fully.

Yes, we can express our "outrage" (fuck, I hate that word) over events in other countries.

I think that the line of intervention does come at killing people..... That being said, intervention comes in many different forms, from diplomatic, to economic, to military. The last should be reserved for when people start getting killed.

[Zynx]

168. Okay. That becomes clearer. This is then just an ideological disagreement.

Let's leave it at that.

[dysfunctional press]

155. well- i knew the chinese government couldn't be ALL bad.

btw- christians who are upset by it should not spend another penny on ANYTHING made in china, as it would be helping to support their government, and by extension- this oppression.

but with the hypocritical nature of MANY american 'christians'- that won't happen.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

164. What Other Groups Is It Appropriate To Beat Up And Break Their Things?

~

[DemocratSinceBirth]

165. What Other Groups Is It Appropriate To Beat Up And Break Their Things?

`