Kablooie
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:26 PM
Original message |
My prediction is that NO health bill will be passed and it will go the way of Clinton's plan. |
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Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 12:26 PM by Kablooie
And health costs will continue to rise excessively.
And more and more people will lose their savings, their homes, and their lives as a result.
And the corporations will become even more arrogant and demanding.
And the Republicans will rejoice as having won by doing nothing.
And they will use this failure as a talking point against Democrats.
And it will increase their votes in the next elections.
And Obama's hold on the leadership of this country will begin to waver.
Democrats, when left on their own, self destruct even faster than the Republicans did.
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stray cat
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message |
1. If so - those on DU who say the bill is worthless better not complain |
WI_DEM
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
SIMPLYB1980
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:32 PM
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niyad
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
11. so a bad bill that legally mandates all the things the OP said is worse than what is going on now? |
Hawkowl
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Mon Dec-14-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
61. Yeah we should all STFU |
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What the hell are you talking about? Not passing anything is better than passing a bill where everyone is required to buy health insurance with no price control mechanism? But letting the existing no price control system murder millions is not acceptable.
Obama and congress need to pass insurance reform that controls costs NOT access.
I'll complain and scream and throw Obama under the goddamn bus unless he does what he was elected to do.
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arcadian
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Yup, and an entire year of a President's administration wasted. |
dysfunctional press
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Mon Dec-14-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
65. not completely- he bailed out wall st., didn't he...? |
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that's gotta count for...something?
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customerserviceguy
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Mon Dec-14-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
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He was going gangbusters until the summer recess. Besides, the next two elections rise or fall depending on how well Congress and the President did in properly anticipating just how much stimulus to apply to the economy. If that fails, then whatever happened on health care will be meaningless.
Besides, every few days, the proposal gets watered down just a little bit more. And we're miles away from the conference committee, who even knows if they will come up with something that is even remotely recognizable as reform?
Frankly, I don't give a damn if this rapidly deteriorating carcass of a concept gets passed or not, I'd really rather try again in 2013 with something that could take place immediately, as opposed to this crazy quilt of meaningless legislation. We might see some leadership from the President when he doesn't have to worry about reelection.
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napi21
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message |
3. I disagree, but we'll see. |
TwilightGardener
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message |
5. That might happen. Hope not. |
WI_DEM
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message |
6. I can't see this. Obama has invested so much of this year on Health Care |
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I just have to think we'll get a bill in the end.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
12. except June, July, August, and September, when he |
Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
29. you don't know what he was doing. why pretend that you do? |
bdamomma
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
44. yea, hoping we get something, but those insurance companies |
Ozymanithrax
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message |
7. You should also add... |
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Republicans will possibly win the house...
If so, they will initiate a series of investigations for the impeachment of President Obama.
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calico1
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message |
8. Unfortunately, I agree. |
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The Democrats in power that actually have the balls to stand up for anything and not back down I can count on one hand. And the President doesn't seem to be one of them.
I think that whatever happens with health care reform, we will still be screwed.
I am so disgusted...I really am.
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jtrockville
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message |
10. Then we can start from scratch with single-payer ON THE TABLE. |
ChairmanAgnostic
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
13. not with this congress, or this president. |
Lasher
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
14. They've already done that. |
jtrockville
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Mon Dec-14-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
27. Perhaps the score should be updated for this millenium. |
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I can't imagine using numbers that old to justify anything. Or for that matter, I can't imagine using numbers that old to rule anything out either. We need a current assessment.
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Lasher
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #27 |
38. Well that was a point I was trying to make. |
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Results of the prior study are encouraging. The lack of a similar but more recent CBO study is an indictment against the Democratic Congressional leadership.
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jtrockville
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
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you really need to take a crash course in how American Politics work
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jtrockville
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
35. "CHANGE" is this administration's (supposed) hallmark |
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"Because it's always been that way" shouln't be an obstacle. If we can't apply "CHANGE" to this situation, what's the point? Was it just a slogan?
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Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
37. the Bill will pass, and it will effect change. |
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your idea would accomplish nothing.
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jtrockville
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
56. My idea would accomplish health care reform. |
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I can't say the same about the current bill.
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liberalpragmatist
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Mon Dec-14-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
71. Every single time health care reform has been defeated, gotten a worst bill... |
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... next time around.
Truman's plan was single-payer. Then that failed. Then Kennedy and Johnson didn't even attempt universal care, settling for Medicare and Medicaid. Then Nixon proposed a highly-regulated hybrid system of HMOs plus a large wraparound public plan. That failed. Then Carter proposed incremental solutions that went nowhere. Then the Clintons proposed managed care "alliances." And that failed. And now, we're expecting something similar to what John Chafee (R-RI) proposed in 1993.
Why on earth with that history do you think we'll magically get single-payer next time around?
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MadHound
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message |
15. Given what this "reform" has become, frankly that would be a good thing |
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Kill this bill and start again from the beginning. If a true, single payer plan can't be put on the table, then at least put a strong public option in the new bill.
At this point the bill deserves to die, it will do more harm than good at this point.
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Laelth
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Mon Dec-14-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
timeforpeace
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message |
16. The next President who runs on HCR better have a plan in hand instead of handing the job off to |
TwilightGardener
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
19. It has to be handed off to Congress, no matter who is in the WH. |
timeforpeace
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
21. The JOB was handed off, not a HCR plan which many may have assumed he had worked out beforehand. |
TwilightGardener
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
22. He can set forth whatever he wants. But it must be legislated by Congress-- |
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and they will change it. Or not pass it at all.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
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quite clearly what are the main issues he wants covered AND, whether the critics agree or disagree, these issues ARE covered in the two versions of the bill. The finger pointers know too little of what they are talking about or are simply entranced with the shape of their ever so delightful finger. Incidentally, if I sound pissed, it is because I AM (not with you, obviously :-)). I do not like AT ALL the way things have been going on with HCR these last few days and I am starting to get seriously apprehensive about the final outcome.
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TwilightGardener
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
43. Me too--about being pissed and apprehensive. |
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I am no longer sure that the final product will be worthwhile (feels like watching a slow-motion train wreck sometimes), but we are at the mercy of Congress for whatever can actually get passed.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
47. I am not sure of anything, BUT |
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I still think that the final product (if there is going to be one :-() is going to be for the better (see my post below). It may be very far from what was hoped for, but still better. Imperfect bill scan be improved upon in time. NO BILL at this point would be IMHO a HUGE setback, not ony for Obama and his agenda but for the fate of health care reform in general. God knows when somebody will have the guts to tackle it again!
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TwilightGardener
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
54. I am inclined to agree--as long there is SOME improvement or benefit |
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for those who were shut out of health insurance altogether, or couldn't afford the premiums. It would be really bad to end up with nothing at all--that would be a total defeat both politically and socially.
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Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
31. there won't be another. Obama is going to sign this Bill. |
Cleita
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message |
17. We may have to go another route if our government fails us. |
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A workable health establishment for everyone doesn't necessarily need to be run and overseen by the federal government. We may have to work through our state or even local government. I would like to see municipalities and counties pass laws regulating health insurance companies. They should demand that they be non-profit for one and that they have no deductibles, no copays and no limits on the care a person might need. That should run them out of business in their jurisdiction. Then maybe alternative health coverage can be offered in those places, like they do in San Francisco. It might not be as good as a national health plan in the beginning but it's an idea that could spread and eventually run the parasitic health insurers out of businesses paving the way for real national health care.
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razorman
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message |
18. I'm afraid you are probably right. The bill has only gotten this far |
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by the skin of its teeth. Even if it makes it out of the Senate, it still has a long way to go.
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DarthPortnoy
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message |
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Reid has the Nuclear Option. This WILL pass and allprogressives that are sitting on the fence with the conservatives will be hung out to dry in the 2010 election. We ARE on the right side of history on this on and we WILL prevail. When this passes, PResident Obama will be looked upon as the one President in the past 100 years that was actually able to get this historic bill passed.
And when it does pass, the Conservatives and their Moose eye eating protegees will be all washed up.
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rudy23
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Mon Dec-14-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
23. It seems like what the bill actually does has become irrelevant to Obama apologists. |
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I think it's morally unthinkable for a government to mandate that we buy into the insurance racket, without regulating them in the least.
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pampango
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Mon Dec-14-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message |
24. At least the repubs will be happy. They'll be able to take credit for it and blast ineffectual Dems, |
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who can't pass legislation even when the have the presidency and large majorities in both houses of congress.
That's the stuff repub 2010 dreams are made of.
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Javaman
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Mon Dec-14-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message |
26. I think we share the same crystal ball. nt |
Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
32. too bad it's filled with fecal matter |
Javaman
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
36. Yes, I scary variation on the snow globe. nt |
juno jones
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Mon Dec-14-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
62. Or a very nasty magic 8-ball. |
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Every side is inscribed "Sorry, You're Screwed". Except for the one that says "Answer hazy, try again later".
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Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message |
28. my prediction is that when the Bill passes, you will find some other reason to bitch about it |
Vinca
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message |
33. MSNBC just reported that the POTUS has told Harry Reid |
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to make a deal with Lieberbush. That means no extended Medicare and no public option. What was this all about again? We began with the notion that all Americans might be able to get affordable health care, but we're ending up with all Americans being served up to big insurance like sacrificial lambs on a platter.
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Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
39. MSNBC is parroting a Politico report based on some 'Official' |
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How many times will people buy these? Politico is trash.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
42. Much as I HATE the idea |
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of giving in to Lieberman's blackmail, this has NOT been about extending Medicare nor having a public option. Both were/are ways to achieve (or at least get closer) to an end, NOT an end in themselves. Even without either of these present, there are still ways to get a bill that will improve the current situation a lot. Insurance companies can be much more tightly regulated (Rockefeller has an amendment that would help in this direction), it's still possible to have meaningful competition even without a PO, etc.
Not getting a bill passed is MUCh worse than having a weakened bill, even a significantly weakened one. And assholes like Lieberman, Ben Nelson, etc. know it and take full advantage of it :mad: :mad:
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bdamomma
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
46. oh I would like to see these insurance companies just suck it up |
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and do something for the American people instead of them being plagued by greed.
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TwilightGardener
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
50. They have quite the racket going, don't they? They don't produce anything, they don't |
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Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 03:19 PM by TwilightGardener
provide any useful services--they just take everyone's money and then try to find ways to avoid paying it out. Like a casino. (On edit--casinos do offer entertainment--so they do actually provide more than insurance co's).
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undeterred
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message |
34. President One Term Obama |
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That's what we'll call him.
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Aramchek
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Mon Dec-14-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
40. Until he takes the oath again on Jan. 20, 2013 |
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Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 02:51 PM by Aramchek
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GreenArrow
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message |
45. My prediction is that A health bill will be passed and ... |
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And health costs will continue to rise excessively.
And more and more people will lose their savings, their homes, and their lives as a result.
And the corporations will become even more arrogant and demanding.
And the Republicans will rejoice as having won by doing nothing.
And they will use this failure as a talking point against Democrats.
And it will increase their votes in the next elections.
And Obama's hold on the leadership of this country will begin to waver.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
49. Given the content of your message |
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a more appropriate subject line for it would have been "A helath bill will NOT be passed and..."
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GreenArrow
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #49 |
58. No, it just means they will pass |
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Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 03:31 PM by GreenArrow
a very, very bad bill.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
60. I understood what you meant |
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I just happen to believe that the very opposite is true.
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GreenArrow
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Mon Dec-14-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #60 |
63. The opposite, meaning that it will be a very, very good bill? |
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Or a simply a somewhat good bill? Or that it is good to simply pass a bill?
No matter, we'll all know soon enough.
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Recovered Repug
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
53. Yep. Anything labeled "Health Care Reform" |
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regardless how little it has to do with health care or reform will be signed in a heart beat. It will be hailed as a significant first step and the implication that more work will be done "later". When that "later" is will be anyones guess.
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quiller4
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message |
48. I can't see it. Reid will cut a deal to get the votes. He is essential under orders to do just that. |
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we might not like the deal he cuts but he'll get a bill. He knows his own future hangs in the balance.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
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Whether we like it or not, I think that the future of HCR for the foreseeable future hangs in the balance. I know that many here will disagree, but I truly think that a flawed (mind you, not horrible) bill is better than no bill.
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bdamomma
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
52. right now something is better than nothing. |
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damn these politicians they got theirs and forget about everyone else.
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Inuca
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Mon Dec-14-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #52 |
backscatter712
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Mon Dec-14-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
64. Agreed. Reid understands as much as any Democrat in the Senate that we need A bill. |
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A bad bill will cause huge problems.
No bill at all will be far, far worse - we'll watch as tens of thousands more die each year because they can't get health care, while Medicare and Medicaid continue to bleed money and a hundred million more people lose their health care.
Ezra Klein (IIRC) said earlier today that a health care bill even without the public option or a Medicare buy-in will save roughly 150,000 lives (that's assuming the 18,000 deaths/yr number) over ten years.
That and the political consequences will mean we lose Congress next year, and we lose all hope of any sort of legislation to deal with everything from global warming to Wall Street to immigration to education.
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Ghost of Tom Joad
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Mon Dec-14-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message |
BakedAtAMileHigh
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Mon Dec-14-09 09:01 PM
Response to Original message |
66. No No No It Is 3-Dimensional Chess, Right??? |
rucky
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Mon Dec-14-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #66 |
70. We got 'em right where we want 'em. |
Unvanguard
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Mon Dec-14-09 09:05 PM
Response to Original message |
67. It's looking very possible. Not most likely, not yet, but very possible. |
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The crucial element here is a combination of the filibuster and Republican unity. Democrats need to learn to work as a bloc.
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rucky
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Mon Dec-14-09 11:19 PM
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69. I don't see the House passing this tripe. n/t |
eridani
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Tue Dec-15-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message |
72. If ths bill passes, all that stuff will still happen, only faster n/t |
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