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This is what makes me a radical liberal!

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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 12:51 AM
Original message
This is what makes me a radical liberal!
I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here on these forums are on the left. We all tend to agree on a wide array of principles.

However, what is a liberal? What -is- liberalism? What is its defining characteristic, what distinguishes it from other political philosophies and systems?

I don't have an answer to any of the above questions that defines everyone here. However, I can tell you what liberalism is to me and why I view myself as a radical liberal.

On a fundamental level, I believe in freedom. Not just a little bit of freedom; but a whole lot. A whole, whole lot. This puts me in opposition to some people here.

True freedom, at it's core, is about nonaggression. It's true that absolute freedom would allow you to punch me in the face. I don't believe in a society in which anarchy is allowed, but when you view freedom through the lens of nonaggression; it makes sense. You may not be free to punch me in the face, but likewise I am not free to punch you in yours. The principle of nonaggression protects your nose as much as it protects my own.

In my view of the world; I believe in the absolute right for a person to own their own body. There should be no law, no person, no government, no institution, that controls an individual or their body. This means you're free to have an abortion, free to ingest whatever substances that you want, free to be a prostitute, free to do whatever you like so long as it does not violate the nonaggression principle. I personally may not agree with a persons actions; but I try to get them to change their ways through educating them, not by outlawing them.

My "radical" view puts me into opposition with many. From my view those who disagree with my version of liberalism are essentially saying that everyone has some limited rights in their own bodies, but not complete or exclusive rights. They're saying governments, corporations, other individuals or institutions, have certain rights in each person's body, too. This is, in my view, advocating at least partial slavery. In essence, you are free to do whatever you want, unless I don't want you to do it.

This view that I hold of liberalism is, to me, the core of what it means to be a liberal. You cannot be a "true" liberal unless you hold this view. You can agree with some liberal policies (such as being pro-choice), but unless you agree with the underlying philosophy how can you be a "true" liberal? Either you believe in freedom or you don't. How can you, for example, believe in a woman's right to choose to do what she wants with her own body, then turn around and say she can't choose to (as an example) home school her child? How can you say that she doesn't have the right to smoke pot?

I think this makes me a radical, but rather than see that as a bad thing, I am proud of it. I've taken a stand on principle and I'm consistent. I don't sway to the political winds, and I don't get dragged along by where the party may or may not go. I've planted my feet firmly in the ground and declared where I make my stand. I can look at something and ask myself, "Does this enhance someone's freedom or restrict it?"

When I answer that question, it's easy to know where I must stand. What about you? Where do you stand? How do you define -your- liberalism?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. All right. I hear all that. But what about the social contract, safety nets, regulations and
unions and so forth? To me that has as much to do with liberalism and the things you mentioned? :) That is what makes the difference between a Green and Dem and a Libertarian, who also agrees with us about freedoms.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Some of those things are difficult to answer.
I try and approach them from an almost scientific point of view. For example, let's take drug laws. The goal behind the laws is to prevent people from using drugs. People continue using drugs. Furthermore, the criminalization of drugs creates a black market, which in turn creates criminals, who then bring violence to communities. When a pot smoker is arrested, the government could potentially be taking a productive member of society out of society, and making them a ward of the state which then has to be supported by the rest of the society. All of this to prevent individuals from making a personal choice. Even though I agree that drugs are bad; it's more effective to spread knowledge about -why- they are bad so people can make educated decisions, than to punish them for the choices that they make. Since drugs are bad to begin with, they are already being punished for the bad choice.

That is how I try and approach things.

Regulations: Using the same logic above, I take regulation on a case by case basis. I don't support corporate personhood, and thus some regulation may be acceptable in some cases. In many cases regulation doesn't hurt big business, which in my view is just as evil as big intrusive government. By virtue of being big and wealthy, they can pay lobbyists to ensure regulatory laws are made favorable to them and not their competition. This allows them to grow bigger and more powerful. They use their money to buy off politicians, and even in many cases the very people who are supposed to oversee them. For an example of this, take a look at those who were supposed to be overseeing the oil and energy companies during the Bush years. They're all in the private sector now working at, surprise!, oil and energy companies.

To give a strong example let's take a look at environmental regulation. The motivation behind environmental regulation is to protect the environment. This is a good thing. Yet, how does it work in practice? First, we have to deal with the lobbyists as I pointed out above. Second, we have to deal with the actual regulators themselves as I also pointed out above. However, there is another dimension to all of this: the government in creating regulation is providing a shield behind which business can hide.

If the government regulation says that you can only put X amount of mercury in the air, then so long as that business remains within the government mandated limit they are safe. However, let's assume that the limit being put into the air is still a dangerous amount. You're a pregnant woman and your child has a birth defect as a result of the mercury that the business is putting in the air. Your options of fighting that business are limited because of the government regulation. The business merely turns to you and says: Look we're sorry that this happened, but we're following the law. Meanwhile, we both know that the business had a hand in writing that law and ensuring that it was favorable to them.

In the case of environmental regulation, I believe that individuals should be empowered to deal with business. If your polluting and causing toxic chemicals to enter into someone's water, then you've committed an act of aggression. You've violated the nonaggression principle. The individuals water which you have polluted has a right to demand restitution. They have the right to take you to court and demand that payments be made to them to fix the problem or compensate them for the loss.

Therefore, if you're polluting the air with tons of CO2, contributing to global warming, what would actually happen (because everyone would sue you) is this: You'll end up paying a tax to everyone for your pollution. The tax you pay would be based upon the amount of CO2 you emit. Thus, you're tax is decreased as the amount of CO2 you emit is decreased.

Some might argue, "but that will cause energy prices to soar!" Yes, it would. However, it would also have the desired effect. It would make renewable and clean technology more affordable, and therefore accomplish the goal originally behind environmental regulation: end the harm being done to our environment.

The reason that environmental regulation doesn't work is because politicians and regulators have incentive to ensure that it doesn't. Politicians want to get re-elected and want favors. Business can provide that. Regulators want favors and a cushy job once they're out of government. Business can provide that. However, when you empower individuals they have an incentive to deal with the business. They are directly and adversely impacted by the actions of the business, and thus unless the business can fix it or provide compensation, there isn't much that will dissuade those harmed by their practices to "deal" (aka sue) with them.

Social Contract: You'll have to be more specific. We may have different definitions. I consider nonaggression the foundation of any social contract, in fact I don't believe you can have a social contract that is fair without it.

Safety Nets: Have you ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George">Henry George? My views are somewhat close to his own. Here is more on his ideas http://www.progress.org/geonomy/">here. Also, look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Gesell">Silvo Gasell. Here is more on his ideas http://www.appropriate-economics.org/ebooks/neo/gesell.htm">here. That link includes free access to his book, "http://www.appropriate-economics.org/ebooks/neo/neo2.htm">The Natural Economic Order". While I differ in matters of degree with these two individuals, my view of economics is largely drawn from their principles. An entire thread could be devoted to either one of them. Oh, and because I'm such a fan of Silvo Gasell I want to direct you to a place called http://alt-money.tribe.net/thread/70e5eb29-853d-44ca-9faa-b789d1757037">Wörgl where his ideas where actually tried.

Unions: I believe in the freedom to organize, and as a result I'm largely pro-Union. However, I also don't support laws that force people to hire Union workers because it violates the non-aggression principle. Neither am I in support of laws that deny or restrict a workers right to organize.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. The problem with pacifist extremism is that it doesn't take a stand on existing violence.
If in Uganda (or the US, for example) LGBT people are being executed, should you be limited to language and talk, or should you intervene and make them stop?
It's fine to be against wars of aggression, but what about wars of defense or self-determination? What about when it is a violent act to do nothing at all?
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I'm not against self-defense. I'm not a pacifist.
I see non-aggression as a contract. We're agreeing to live and let live, to agree to disagree, and to live along side each other despite that fact. So in my view, it's wrong to legislate against or forcefully repress people who believe being gay is wrong. However, it's equally wrong for such people to legislate against or forcefully repress people who are gay.

Thus, in the situation in Uganda, gays and those in support of gay rights are fully legitimized (in my view) to use violence against their government and government officials who try to arrest or execute them.

When someone initiates violence and commits an act of aggression, they fundamentally give up the right not to be the recipients of aggression. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to say, be a slave who kills their "owner" in an attempt to achieve freedom. Whether or not it is against the law would be irrelevant. Laws can also be tools of aggression. People therefore are fully within their right to ignore such laws.

As you can see, I'm far from a pacifist, even if it is the ideal.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yeah, pacifism is a hard sell.
I don't think anyone wants or needs a mind patrol brigade; but "thinking being gay is wrong" and political organizing against LGBT freedom coincides. I personally don't care what any individual "thinks", I want to see anti-equality measures overturned by any means necessary (including economic).

I skimmed through the one link you gave and much of it sounds socialist at its surface, but I completely disagree with the concept that a king is a member of the working class. That defies history and common sense. Kings are royalty. I've heard of the bourgeois class and working class coming together to overthrow kings, but never the working class and kings coming together to overthrow the bourgeois class.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. There is a difference between holding a belief and forcing it on others.
I hold many personal beliefs, and believe that many people do immoral things. However, holding a belief is different from trying to enforce that belief on others. Morality is always the result of choice. You can force people to act moral, but actions and beliefs are two separate things.

That is the irony. There are billions of people who would use aggressive means in an attempt to create a moral world. However, in choosing the aggressive path those you force to act moral are deprived of the very ability to be moral as most would define it.

To give an example: Let us say there is a Catholic dictator who believes that the highest moral act is attending daily mass. If this Catholic dictator uses aggression and forces those under his rule to attend daily mass, he may get what he wants. People may attend. But what is the result? Will people convert to Catholicism merely by attending? Or will his act of aggression create resentment among the people he seeks to convert?

Certainly, if he could force enough people some would convert, but it is reasonable to believe that these people could have also been converted through non aggressive means. Furthermore, that does not count the countless potential converts lost, who now resent Catholicism and everything associated with it, because they are forced to attend daily mass.

Thus there is the irony: The dictator can get people to act "moral" but never actually BELIEVE or accept the morality he attempts to oppose upon them by controlling their actions.

The same is true for anti-LGBT legislation. Many gays and lesbians will pretend to live heterosexual lives for fear of aggression from their government. However, it will never change who they are they will always be gay or lesbian. Furthermore, the aggression causes further social ills. Because gays and lesbians are forced live to heterosexual lives, getting married and having children, they will be unhappy. This will in turn impact their children and their wife or husband, who is largely innocent of any wrong doing at all.

---

I am unsure on your last point. Could you give me a link regarding the king reference? I think you might be talking about something regarding Henry George, but I cannot say for certain. What I'd like for someone to take away from those links is not any particular message, but the underlying ideas behind the reforms they've proposed. I am not 100% in either camp, for example I still believe in private property, but that doesn't mean that Henry George is useless.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Liberal political philosopher Karl Popper made the same point.
Utopian ideologies lead to totalitarianism because the Utopians "silence" any opposition to their ideology as a "threat to the revolution".
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. This is always true.
I think people tend to forget this fact too easily, and it is always the danger of authoritarianism. It is actually a good thing, though, that aggression rarely if ever brings about the desired ends. If that were the case, then there would be a reason to embrace aggression.

On the left there are many people who embrace aggressive authoritarian ideals to bring about a better society. These people have their hearts in the right place, because they want to do good. They want to help people. That isn't a bad thing. However using aggressive means to "help" (read: force) someone will always lead to negative consequences.

For example, it is perfectly reasonable for many on the left to support the war on drugs. Although the war on drugs is typically seen as a "hard on crime" issue for those on the right, there is nothing contradictory for a leftist to support the war on drugs because (in their view) it saves people from being addicted to something like crack or meth.

That's not a bad thing. Being addicted to drugs is awful, and no decent or reasonable person would want that fate for anyone. However, when you try and use aggression to prevent people from making bad choices, it has consequences that are far more negative than the actual problem. Because drugs are outlawed, it creates a black market for criminals to exploit. The criminals enter neighborhoods and bring with them violence and crime. Furthermore, it punishes the very people you're trying to help (those addicted to drugs) by throwing them in jail. If you want to help them: get them off drugs. If you want to stop people from taking drugs, give them a serious education about what it's like being an addict; so they can use that knowledge to make the right choices.

In the end, the war on drugs does not stop people from doing drugs but instead criminalizes them. This reduces the likelihood of them coming forward to seek help. It even has the consequence of having police focus on drug users instead of real criminals such as murderers, rapists, and thieves. Criminals that actually create victims with their crimes.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have a problem with freedom to produce and sell guns and ammo.
I am defining my own liberalism as strongly anti gun and anti proliferation.
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ARFtheDog Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Anti Gun?
Just out of curiosity, why anti-gun?
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Because of the convenience they confer to kill and cripple.
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cark Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. They also give you a convenient way to
protect yourself from those that want to kill and cripple you. Criminals don't follow laws, that is why they are called criminals. Gun laws are just one more law that they will ignore, except they will now be going up against unarmed law abiding citizens.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Here is my own view on guns.
I believe those who plot or intend to commit acts of violent aggression will do so with or without a gun.

Outlawing guns has the same effect as outlawing drugs: it creates a black market. This black market then creates criminals, who then come into communities and act violently.

If you lived in a bad neighborhood; in a place where even the police didn't want to go (and there are such places), would you deny a woman the right to own a weapon to protect herself?

I believe the violence in our society largely comes from our culture. As a culture, most people see aggression as acceptable. We even, in many cases, believe in preemptive aggression (get the other guy before he gets me).

The fact of the matter is there are millions of people in the United States who own guns. A small number of them use them for violent aggression against others. What leads you to believe that:

A) They would not have broken the law (in the same way a drug user breaks the law) to get a gun to commit their violent act?
B) That they would not have chosen a different weapon (such as a knife) to commit their violent act?
C) What would be your solution to removing already existing guns from society, keeping in mind that there are millions upon millions of gun owners out there?
D) How do you deal with the second amendment of the United States Constitution?
E) What do you propose for people who live in dangerous neighborhoods, where they can't depend on the police for protection?
F) I'll work off the assumption that your anti-gun laws would also extend to anti-hunting laws. If this is the case, how would you deal with the over population of animals such as (where I live at least) deer? Without the hunters reducing their numbers each season, how do you deal with the increased number of car accidents and other issues that would inevitably result? Would you call for government "culling" of the animals? (They are doing something similar to this in Australia, where the government is sending people out in helicopters with automatic weapons to kill millions of camels.)
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. There were billions of U.S. silver coins minted for use as circulation currency.
Seriously. Billions.

They don't circulate anymore.

Why not?

Because they have inherent tangible value and they aren't made anymore.

Some have been lost or melted down. The rest are hoarded.

You can go to a coin store and buy them, but in carefully preserved condition not factory new.

In short, they are collectibles.

That's the way it should go for guns. You don't need confiscation. Just turn off the spigot.

Put an end to the endless supply of new guns and ammo and numismatic principles will begin to take hold.

Result? Heirlooms treasured for their scarcity. A safer society.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. How do you handle them coming from across our borders?
Criminals and thugs will always have an incentive to get their hands on guns for obvious reasons.

There will always be a place, somewhere, even illegal shops in the United States, that would manufacture them.

You are right in that they'd become more expensive. However, more expensive does not mean less desirable.

Furthermore, I am still wondering how you solve some of the issues I brought forth.

A) What would keep your war on guns from being just like our war on drugs?
B) Since we can both agree that banning guns won't eliminate violence, how do you handle people who select other weapons (such as knives) then commit a violent act?
C) What do you propose for people who live in dangerous neighborhoods, where they can't depend on the police for protection?
D) I'll work off the assumption that your anti-gun laws would also extend to anti-hunting laws. If this is the case, how would you deal with the over population of animals such as (where I live at least) deer? Without the hunters reducing their numbers each season, how do you deal with the increased number of car accidents and other issues that would inevitably result? Would you call for government "culling" of the animals? (They are doing something similar to this in Australia, where the government is sending people out in helicopters with automatic weapons to kill millions of camels.)
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Stopping the legal manufacturing and sale of guns will result in the "spigot" being owned by the mob
Making guns isn't as difficult as you seem to think. This guy was caught with a home made machine gun: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x275728
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. If it's contraband and it's detected, then yes go ahead and confiscate it.
You don't even need to send smugglers to prison. Just relieve them of their goods and their cash.

If this country was only faced with the problem of home workshop gunsmiths, we would be so much better off. As it stands, we have factories turning out thousands of units per day. Not a good situation.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. Which is not liberalism.
You're an authoritarian.
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ARFtheDog Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. The unfortunate problem with your statement.
Trust me when I say this. I wish there was such a thing as non-aggression. However, thats not going to happen. Probably ever. What would be the penalty for aggression? Jail? That hasn't worked for the most part so far. Who would defend our freedoms, if everyone were non-violent?

The way I see it, you really don't actually take a stand. You just say everyone should be able to do what they want, as long as they are non violent about it. I also think you should be able to have final dominion over your own body. Junk it up with drugs if you want. However, again I've rarely heard of someone hooked on Heroin that wouldn't lie, cheat, steal, or murder for more drugs.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. ...
:eyes:
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. It's really simple.
Those who commit acts of aggression have to either compensate or fix what they've done. In some cases that would mean prison, yes. If you kill someone, and the family of the person who was killed wants you to go to prison for life - then that's where you go.

In my world actions have consequences. It's like making a law to limit how much alcohol can be consumed by a single individual. Why do you do it? Because consuming vast amounts of alcohol is dangerous and you want to protect people from themselves. How do you enforce it? By punishing the person who consumes too much alcohol. Yet, from my point of view, not only is that law wrong (everyone has the right to their own bodies), it's also redundant.

There are consequences of consuming too much alcohol, some of which can lead to death. If people in our society want to limit the amount of alcohol consumed, it makes more sense for them to educate consumers of alcohol so that they know the risks and therefore can make informed choices.

You are right that we'll NEVER live in a world in which everyone obeys the principle of non-aggression. Thankfully, we don't have to live in such a world to make it happen. Those who are aggressive only invite aggression upon themselves in return. It's effectively following the golden rule: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. When you treat others well, then they in turn will treat you well. When you treat others badly, they in turn will treat you badly.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. Principles - by definition - are intended to guide actions.
They'll never be fully realized or bought-into by the whole body. Any principle. Ever. But the process of moving towards that unrealistic goal has rewards in and of itself.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. sounds liberatarian
old school liberal

thumbs up by me, at least, if it's any consolation.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Classic Liberalism, maybe.
I'm not anti-libertarian, even though I don't necessarily agree with aspects of modern libertarian economic thought. See my post in #8 under "Safety Nets."
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Classical liberalism means laissez-faire capitalism
Adam Smith was a classical liberal. You're a libertarian. Depending on your feelings towards corporations and the working class, you're a right-wing libertarian or a left-wing libertarian-- depending how far left or right you go, you're a free-market libertarian or a libertarian socialist. If you think the rich should be "free" to crush unions, then you're a right-wing libertarian. If you think we should fight for workers' freedom even at the expense of the rich, then you're a left-wing libertarian.

The term "radical" means "root". For example: radical feminists believe that the most core injustice is male oppression of women. Radical leftists (socialists and communists) believe that the essential rift in society is between rich (bourgeois) and working class (and that this oppression is the origin of women's and LGBT oppression. A radical anarchist believes that "power" is the root of all oppression. People use the term to mean "fierce" because people who believe that there is a primary rift that needs to be addressed tend to be fierce.

But liberal, in itself, is by definition not a radical position. Radical libertarianism is usually defined as anarchism or radical anti-government positions (like, for instance, tea baggers)
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. See #8
I went over some of my positions there and why I take them. You can make up your own mind about what label I should belong too. :P
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. We're all completely free.
You're free to do absolutely anything you like. It's just that the authorities will toss you in a cell for doing some of them.

I think liberalism is about regulating the economy and investing in your population via social services. That's about it.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. So your version of liberalism has no room for personal freedom?
My issue with that point of view is this:

It is based upon the assumption that those in power (the government, big business, whatever) will always do what is right. It is based upon the belief that they are, at the very least neutral, if not benevolent. It is also based upon the belief that either policy can be made that is good for all individuals, or what is good for the majority of individuals therefore excludes the feelings and lives of the minority.

I fundamentally view the world differently. I see (government, big business, whatever) as being at the very least destructive, if not out right and often malevolent. Not because every individual that makes it up is bad, but because of human nature itself: we're easily corruptible and will often take the shortest route to the cheese. We can justify large atrocities in the name of the greater good. Power when concentrated in the hands of a few individuals will never (in my view) lead to good. Therefore, power must be dispersed into the hands of as many individuals as possible, allowing each individual to make the choices about their own lives and futures.

On the second half, believing that the majority trumps the will of the minority... I believe there are countless examples in history in which that is proven to be wrong. In our own country we could start with slavery and move forward from there.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Quite the opposite.
I don't think people in power are mostly well-meaning and benevolent. Far from it. I think people who seek power are mostly egomaniacs, sociopaths, and utterly corrupt greed heads. They're some of the last people I'd ever trust. I'd prefer to have non-violent felon watching my back in a crisis than a politician, and I'm not kidding.

What I'm saying is that, for the purposes of national political identity, I see liberalism in terms of the very bare bones definition I offered. What's more, if you regulate commerce and invest in your population, you're going a long way towards siphoning power from the top.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm with you, and also proud of it.
People should be able to do whatever they want, so long as they're not infringing on the rights of others.

This has always been the basic premise of my own political ideology.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. very well said, but also give me some socialism!
(maybe for lack of a better word, but) Liberal to me also implies compassion and looking out for the community as a whole,
Assuring the welfare of the elderly, children, sick, etc., providing a safety net.
And also, importantly, looking out for the welfare of
the planet/environment.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
29. I agree with you. I consider myself a Left-Libertarian.
Excellent post!
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. K&R.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. KICK
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kick
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. Kick.
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cark Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
36. Safety net
Maybe you could spell out how you reconcile using government to force people to pay taxes against their will (limiting their freedom) to fund a public safety net. Does this violate your nonaggression doctrine, if not why?

Good post.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. It depends.
It depends on how the taxes are collected.

I support a single tax system on natural resources. I view natural resources (land, oil, natural gas, coal, etc.) as collectively owned. No one labored to make the Earth, and therefore an individual (by virtue of having the sharpest swords or luck of being somewhere first) does not necessarily have exclusive rights over such things. That does not preclude private management and control. I believe in private management and control, and in a large sense to most people things would not seem different.

Currently in the United States many people pay a property tax. The conventional property tax is generally two taxes in one. One falls on buildings and the other on the land itself. Instead of taxing buildings and improvements on the land, I advocate just taxing the land itself.

Why? Because if you tax buildings you raise their cost and discourage improvement. We want people to improve the land, to make it more useful, because that's good for the environment and the economy. As people improve their homes and work toward weatherizing them, installing solar panels and the like, they are rewarded by paying lower taxes. If enough changes can be made to improve the land, then you're effectively paying no taxes at all.

Furthermore, it discourages urban sprawl. It is more economical to build up than out, because we're taxing parcels of land rather than improvements to the land. Since it encourages urbanization, it also encourages shared transportation systems like subways, which reduces the number of cars on the road, which in turn reduces pollution.

However, outside of the environmental benefits we can also move away from taxing labor and production. This encourages more labor and production, increasing the number of jobs available, and spurring economic investment and growth.

When it comes to other resources such as oil, natural gas, coal, gold, etc. you can think of it similar to Alaska's oil dividend. The money can be used to fund social safety nets, be given out directly to citizens, or used to fund other critical areas of government. I'd leave such up to the elected representatives of the states.

Obviously, this type of tax does not lend itself to raping citizens of their wealth, and fueling insane amounts of government. It would have to be accompanied by bringing government down to its more core and essential roles, reducing it in areas that are not needed. This also has the side effect of making government more effective and efficient, because the bigger something is the more bureaucratic it is, which in turn means it is more wasteful, which in turn means it requires more money to function, etc... it's an awful cycle.

This would not be the only economic reform needed. Modifying the currency to a system of demurrage is also critical. Basically, all this means is that money loses its value over time. In a natural economy, a barter economy, let's say Bob, you, and I want to trade something. Bob is a farmer who grows wheat. You are a chicken farmer wanting to sell eggs. I'm a fisherman wanting to sell my daily catch. In a barter economy, there is no money.

If I want to sell my fish for wheat, you want to sell your eggs for wool, and Bob wants to sell his apples for a goat we're all screwed. No one is going to get what they want. Hence, money enters the equation. It becomes an intermediary form of exchange. Money itself has no actual value, but instead is used as a medium of exchange to get what we want.

The problem is how money works. In our monetary system money, like the things we want to exchange, has value. As a general rule of thumb, the longer you hold onto money the more valuable it becomes (inflation being the exception to this rule). In our current economic system when people hoard their money, we try to get people to loosen their grip on money by inflating our currency. Since inflation makes our money less valuable, people spend their money.

This is all well and good... except inflation itself has negative consequences. (I can go into more detail here later.) In the natural economy if people are hoarding their money what happens to Bobs apples, your eggs, and my fish? They all spoil. The apples, eggs, and fish are the things of real value, and yet if we cannot get rid of them fast enough they become useless to us and others.

A system of demurrage fixes that problem. It puts money on par with virtually everything else. In effect, a hoarding fee is charged, and the money you hoard is de-valued. So let's say at the end of each month the money you're holding loses 10% of its value. No one wants to hold something that loses 10% of its value (just like you don't want to be holding rotten eggs). Thus, you have incentive to spend, loan, or invest that money into something that has actual value. That could range from a work of art, to putting money back into a business, to adding improvements onto your home, etc. These things have real and tangible value, whereas money itself does not.

The key to understanding this is that interest is the cause of the income gaps we see in our society. Interest causes money to flow upward to the top. In effect, money is almost like a magnet, attracting more money over time. That money flows from the hands of the middle class and the poor to the rich... and it even flows from the rich to the super rich, and from their hands to the ultra-rich, and so on. It's like a giant pyramid scheme where all the money is flowing directly to the top, and eventually like a pyramid scheme it all collapses.

In a system of demurrage it is no longer practical to give yourself a 1 million dollar bonus. At least not unless you plan to spend that money very soon, because by the end of the month your 1 million dollars becomes $900,000 dollars. Therefore, it is more practical to give yourself stock options in your company as payment, which then in turn rewards you for taking that money and placing it back into the company itself.

Since jobs are more plentiful in the system, workers have options. They can leave your employment for a more favorable boss. Once they get enough experience they can even leave your employment and start their own competing business potentially. Therefore, it becomes more beneficial to pay your employees well as they themselves are an investment.

Demurrage has the opposite effect of interest. Instead of causing money to shift upward in the pyramid it causes it to spread out more equally in the system. Yes, there will still be rich and poor, but the gap would shrink dramatically and the poor would be much better off.

This is just a tip of how I'd handle social safety nets. Not by creating more government, but by reforming the system itself. For more information on the general idea behind demurrage read http://www.appropriate-economics.org/ebooks/neo/neo2.htm">The Natural Economic Order by Silvio Gesell. It is free online. I'm sure you'd have a question on banks and such, and that's all handled in the book.

The post is already too long to go on further. :P
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cark Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Thanks for the reply!
I appreciate you taking the time to write such a long response. I am right there with you for the most part outside of demurrage. Why wouldn't I just invest in something like gold or silver or other hard assets to store wealth and why wouldn't this still flow upwards? I will read up on it, so I understand it better.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact that's the point!
Understand that today we view money as both valuable AND as a medium of exchange. Demurrage takes the value out of money and reduces it to a medium of exchange. Investing in gold, for example, is not all that different than investing in home improvement. Gold has value. You can do things with gold. However, when money is held to be of equal value to something like gold, then people hoard it. It makes sense to hoard it... unless you know it's going to lose value over time. Then you want to get rid of it as soon as possible. That's how you want money to operate: You want it to be a medium of exchange, and you want it to exchange as many hands as possible.

To give an analogy, did you ever play a game of kick ball as a kid? When money is working properly it's somewhat like a game of kick ball. It's being passed around from person to person. Everyone gets a chance to play. However, our current system rewards the kid who grabs the ball. He is rewarded for holding it hostage and then making demands of the other players. Because he controls the ball he becomes more powerful than everyone else.

You want people to invest in real things that have tangible value. After all, investing in gold does not turn your money into gold. You've given that money to someone, who then must pass it onto someone else or have it become devalued. ...and so on and so forth. That's how and why it works. To use another kids game analogy, have you ever played the game of hot potato? That's basically how it works. No one wants to be caught holding the money when it becomes devalued, and as it is passed around there is more and more urgency to spend it.
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cark Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Why wouldn't people abandon 'money' and use gold
as the medium for exchange? Seems like the obvious thing to do under this demurrage system and how would this stop people from hording gold/silver and other assets. I really don't see how this accomplishes anything.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Gresham's law
Basically... since demurrage money is worth less to people than the current system of money, they want to spend it first. Even if you use it to buy something like gold or silver to trade, you're still giving the demurrage money to someone else, who then must spend it. No one wants to hold it, and thus everyone's first priority is to spend the demurrage money FIRST before they trade something of more value.

Think of it this way: You're holding $100 demurrage dollars and $100 worth of gold coins. Which do you intend to spend first? The demurrage dollars -will- lose their value, but the gold coins will maintain their value relatively speaking for the foreseeable future. Because everyone is exchanging demurrage dollars (no one wants to keep it) it becomes the preferred medium of exchange.

Yes, you can invest the demurrage dollars into gold, but then the person you bought the gold from has to spend the dollars.

We've actually seen things like this take place, such as when fiat money drove out gold backed money.
-----------

There are actually a few places where demurrage was tried. A few used demurrage unknowingly and one made use of it knowingly.

First, was ancient Egypt. In ancient Egypt, when you stored grain, you received a token, which was exchangeable and eventually became a type of currency. If you returned a year later with 10 tokens, you would only get 9 tokens worth of grain, because rats and spoilage would have reduced the quantities, and because the guards at the storage facility had to be paid, etc. So in effect, this was a demurrage system.

During this time Egypt became known as the breadbasket of the ancient world. It is possible that it became the breadbasket because of it's demurrage system. Instead of money storing value, people wanted to invest in things that would last a really long time. Things like land improvements and irrigation systems.

When the Romans conquered Egypt they forced their own monetary system upon them. It was not long after that when Egypt ceased being the breadbasket.

The second is in Europe during the Middle Ages - the 10th to the 13th centuries - local currencies were issued by local lords, and then periodically recalled and reissued with a tax collected in the process. Again, this was a form of demurrage that made money undesirable as a store of value. It was during this time period that we saw a blossoming of the Middle Age culture, and it could be possible to trace it back to the currency being used.

Practically every major cathedral was built during that time period. This is significant because of the required investment for a small town at the time to build such structures.

Outside of religious roles, cathedrals were important as a sort of tourist like attraction. They brought pilgrims to the local area. The cathedrals were built to last a really long time and create a long-term cash flow for the community. When construction was started, people were looking to invest in the future - and even today many of these cathedrals draw tourists from around the world... even 800 years or so after they were completed.

When gunpowder technology was introduced in the 14th or 15th centuries, the kings were able to centralize power and then monopolize the money system. After that we saw no or only a few cathedrals built.

However, the cathedrals are merely an example. During the time when a demurrage system was used estates show that mills and other productive assets were maintained at extraordinary levels of quality, with parts replaced even before they wore out. It is also believed that the quality of life for the common laborer was very high for the time period; even higher than in some parts of the world today.

The third example from ancient times involves the Aztecs. They used coca beans as currency. Outside of being used to make chocolate, they were prized as a holy drink by the spiritual upper class. For the same reasons as grain in Egypt, the coca bean currency was effectively a form of demurrage. The Aztecs did amazing things in the America's, such as creating Tenochtitlan, which for its time was a city well in excess of any in contemporary Europe.

The fourth and final example was directly taken from Silvio Gesell's ideas. There have been other implementations, but Worgl by far has the most documentation. During the Great Depression in the 1930's the small town of Worgl suffered from very high unemployment and was essentially broke. It's Mayor implemented a system of demurrage which seemed to totally turn the fate of the town around. Because of the rate at which money exchanged hands, and because it became favored over the national currency, unemployment dropped to virtually zero. The town was able to accomplish major projects from building new houses, a reservoir, a ski jump and a bridge. In effect, it appeared as if Worgl was in the midst of an economic boom while everyone suffered the Great Depression all around them. Other towns started to take notice of Worgl's success, and although the currency was complimentary to the Austrian National Currency, the Austrian National Bank freaked out. They feared that they would lose their monopoly on money, and successfully was able to shut down the Worgl Experiment.

When the experiment in Worgl ended, unemployment immediately spiked back up, and Worgl collapsed back into the Depression.

Those are some real world examples of a system of demurrage being used successfully. Today, we have an advantage in that we could do it all electronically. Rather than carrying around coins or paper bills that require stamps (as was needed in Worgl) we could use debit cards.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. I believe it is the economic issues that make us liberal.
On all the significant social issues in America, the left has already won. We just haven't seen all our cultural victories translated into law yet, but we will. Republicans keep hammering these wedge issues, but they seldom act on them when they have the chance. They controlled the federal government between 2003 and 2006. They could have outlawed abortion, if they wanted, but they didn't. They know they have already lost that argument. Only their rabid base, a small and dwindling minority in this country, would support such a measure. The vast majority of the country is "socially liberal." That doesn't make them all our political allies.

As for foreign policy, while that's very important, I don't see a clear liberal/conservative distinction. I see differences between various administrations, but I don't think these differences are shaped by either classic liberalism or classic conservatism. Isolationism has often been considered a conservative position, for example, but the Bush administration wasn't isolationist at all. In fact, their aggressive foreign policy philosophy has been called "neo-liberalism." Ultimately, I am uncomfortable describing myself as either liberal or conservative on foreign policy. I just don't find those labels to be particularly useful.

So, because we've already won on the social issues, and because "liberal" and "conservative" are not terribly useful in describing people's opinions on foreign policy, I return to my assertion that it's the economic issues that matter. Whether people have homes, whether they have jobs, whether they can afford health care, whether our economy collapses, and whether people can afford to feed their families ... these are the issues that really matter. These are the issues most often affected by the laws passed in Congress. These are the areas where we most often disagree with Republicans. And it is on these issues where politicians show us whether or not they are liberal. The words "liberal" and "conservative" have real and profound meaning in the context of these issues.

Of course, the Republican Party is in dire straits. We have always has conservatives in the Democratic Party, and the Democratic Party will continue to attract more conservatives as the Republicans dwindle. We have to accept that fact, for the moment, but I will continue to reserve the word "liberal" for those politicians who show an inclination to act on behalf of the less fortunate in regards to the issues that matter most ... the economic ones.

:dem:

-Laelth
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I wouldn't say that.
I think it's a mistake to believe that we've 'won' on social issues. When it comes to issues like basic freedom of speech, you'll find people even on this forum who would be happy to silence any they disagree with through aggressive means. It's a mistake to believe that totalitarianism cannot just as easily exist on the left as on the right. "For the greater good" has a lot of appeal.

Keep in mind that recent polls have American's largely on the side of Anti-Choice activists, which is a reversal of old trends. Minds can change, and sometimes not for the better. Xenophobia (tribalism) is something that is part of human nature.

Many of the things you name: jobs, homes, healthcare, feeding the hungry - those are both social and economic issues.
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