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Let me be Very Clear about my position on the HCR Bill. I don't support it.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:22 PM
Original message
Let me be Very Clear about my position on the HCR Bill. I don't support it.
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 04:38 PM by berni_mccoy
Many here claim to know my position on this because I would defend Democrats against the likes of Hamsher. To be clear, they don't.

My position on HCR has been consistent since Obama ran for President. I support Medicare For All but would accept a Public Option with reforms of the health insurance industry. For me, the House version of HCR is the minimum. The current Senate bill is simply some reform of the industry, with subsidies provided for those who can't afford it and clearly not enough for many who still won't be able to afford it. Does that mean it shouldn't pass? I'm leaning toward no. What disturbs me is that so many progressives are saying that this reform should pass. I need to understand that before I'm going to sign on as agreeing that it should pass. I doubt that I will be convinced for reasons not the least of which are the Abortion clauses or the fact that the PEC clause does not kick into effect for adults until 2014.

As I've posted before, I have a very personal connection to the issue (see my sig line). I have two children with chronic diseases. We pay more to medical insurance than we do for our home, our food and our savings and it still requires us to spend more than $6000 / year out of pocket. We also have reached our annual limit for medical supplies. As such, we have gone to DC to lobby our Congressional representatives on Health Care. I've written letters to the editor and supported them. I've volunteered for some of them. Despite posting on why I am passionate about this issue several times in the past, I'm still accused of being a paid shill for the insurance industry when I post topics that are hard to accept for some here.

But I will not go so far as to attack Democrats or to side with teabaggers, or to buy into the talking points the other side does for killing the health care bill. There are serious differences between teabaggers and us, one that cannot be overcome for even the sake of this issue. Are there reasonable people on the right? Certainly. But Fox News and their Teabaggers aren't the reasonable ones. I do not trust those who would level baseless attacks against Democrats, many who are Progressives, for supporting this bill. I trust that the Democrats supporting this bill see it as better than nothing. I don't see it that way and I've asked some to explain how it is. Some of their points ring true with me, some do not. But one thing that doesn't ring true is attacking them, on this forum or any other, with teabagger tactics and hypocritical stances.

Call me a cheerleader if you will. Hate me if you must. But I will not stand aside while unsubstantiated attacks are made against the people who are best able to serve our interests. And I sure as hell won't stand for people calling for the defeat of them (with the exception of Lieberman, who is not a Democrat and has betrayed the Democrats and his own constituents). In a similar way, I also won't defend the administration for attacking Dean. Dean may have overstated his position but the administration certainly made a mistake in focusing their response on him while they should have been lambasting Lieberman.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm going to give you a hint
When you refuse to speak out about something, because you are just happy that Nazis aren't knocking at your door, the Nazis are winning.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who says I'm refusing to speak out about it? I've written my reps about it.
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 04:25 PM by berni_mccoy
Thanks for totally missing the point, using a Nazi comparison and being the simple jackass you've always been.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes but offering public support for a horrible piece of legislation by defending the people who
crafted it because the horrible piece of legislation angers your political opponents, is rather silly.

I can think of about 50 things off the top of my head that would piss off both the GOP and the left and make Rahm happy, doesn't mean I'd support them.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. See there you go...you put words in his mouth --something he very clearly did not say
If you are just going to decide what each of us believes, maybe we should just stop posting and you can use our screennames to say what you think we believe.

:wtf:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. He's right
Why are you being such a pissant over an issue you previously stated you weren't that excited about?

Go get laid or something...
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Is this a new tactic you guys developed in your spider hole?
I'll have to lurk to see what you guys are up to sometime.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Captain diversion!
You're always looking to blame someone/something when you get in over your head with your ridiculous "hard hitting" posts. Don't be a dick - defend your position like a grown up.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. You just told me to go get laid
and your mad I responded with snark :rofl:

Hugh, you know where I stand, you got my answer earlier today. Your the one showboating for your cheerleading friends.

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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yeah - it's US versus US
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 04:47 PM by HughMoran
C'mon - stop playing that game.

It's ME verus YOU and I'm winning because you're flying off half-cocked this time.

Cheerleading friends my ass.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. This is the Bernie Sanders nonsense
Where someone goes off on how this is a giant flaming pile of shit with a whole bunch of sell outs who caused it, but I'm not going to give the GOP any quarter.

The GOP doesn't need any quarter, they are publicly denouncing this as loudly as possible in full hopes it passes

:rofl:
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. so now Bernie Sanders is not Progressive enough for you??
you are hopeless.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. when you side with the Nazis, you become a Nazi
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Godwin's Law invoked. G'nite all. n/t
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Oh, it was AllentownJake who decided to bring Godwin's Law to certainty in this post. First Response
even. I shouldn't be surprised at it though, but I can't help being just damn disappointed.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:38 PM
Original message
Calling the GOP Nazis is bad
Ok Fascist dominionist Christian fucktards.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Except that isn't what you did.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. You are supporting the bill in public because the GOP doesn't like it
there does that make you happy.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Did you miss the "NOT" in my statement. As in, I'm NOT supporting it. Is DU not in "Public"?
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 04:45 PM by berni_mccoy
You really need to take some time off dude.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. You know that's horseshit
:eyes:
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Oh Hugh
:hug:

Seriously, I'm not going to be too critical even though my leaders have sold me out. How do you think I'm going to read this.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Dude - it's not the end of the world
Seriously - you're taking this shit WAY too seriously - it's nearly unforgivable what happened to the public option - but we can only dust ourselves off and fight on another day. Ultimatums very rarely work in politics - it's the art of the possible - some things simply can't be achieved given the cards you've been dealt.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. From where I'm sitting
I think ultimatums worked great for Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman

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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. It's Miller time
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 04:57 PM by HughMoran
...though I guess I'm a Nazi because I like Kirin - and as we all know, the Japanese were on the side of the Nazis.

:pals: :toast:



(your argument is a straw man BTW since the Dems did not hold the aces that those two did)
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. They certainly did
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 04:59 PM by AllentownJake
They had plenty of aces, they just weren't willing to risk the fallout of playing one of them, and they had no authorization from the leadership to do so.

Did I call the OP a Nazi, no but if you are afraid to do something because you are afraid of what some awful person will do if you do it, that person is controlling your actions.

When I refuse to speak out against my leaders because I'm afraid some slimeball will use it against them, the solution for my leaders is simple. Stop doing those things.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Aww jeez Mr. serious face
Just because I realized that my favorite beer - Kirin - fit into this thread better than expected - and I'm a clever dude - doesn't mean - oh, never mind :(
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I like Dead Guy Ale
Sorry I ruined your Beer.

:toast:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Haven't had it yet
All I have are Heineken at home actually.

I was just attempting to lighten things up a bit - you seem awful serious lately.

:toast:
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I consider this a continuation of Bush/Reaganism
Except for social problems not military ones. It is one of those things that will get my panties in a bunch.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. That's a bit of a stretch
really now - are you telling me...

























...that Jake wears panties?

















:rofl:















:P
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Only for one really messed up chick
:rofl:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Hah!
:hangover:
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. LOL
nice.
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Sarcasm?
And when did we use ultimatums EVER for these two clowns? If we did, I missed it.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. We didn't they were the ones making ultimatums
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. DU is awash with disappointment right now.
I only hope Skinner and crew choose to do something about it, and soon.

This place is about as fun as a rubber crutch nowadays.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I didn't invoke it. I just provided a corollary.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. Yeah, I backed you up on that. I think that responder didn't read AJ's response.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. What a ludicrous response.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. I dont think you read this op through, your reply was not deserved
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Your thoughtful message is not needed by people who are reasonable
and thoughtful about this issue.

and it won't matter to people who aren't.

i wonder which category each reader here places themselves.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. Stockholm Syndrome....
You know we're getting screwed, but you don't like it when the rapists are badmouthed.

Okay....
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. Wow. Almost as bad as the Nazi references. Godwin2 perhaps? NT
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Huh?
What else would you call someone who attacks anyone who attacks their oppressors?
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. It's the rape reference that's particularly distasteful. NT
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. "Rape" also means "despoil" or "plunder"... e.g.
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 05:54 PM by Junkdrawer
"You know we're getting plundered, but you don't like it when the despoilers are badmouthed."
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. If Lieberman were defeated, would a Republican replace him?
Had a Republican been there - only 59 and no bill.

Maybe even Lieberman is better than a Republican.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. The only reason a Democrat isn't there is because Lieberman ran against the Democrat.
He divided the party and voila, got back in.

If an election were held today, I think we'd all be certain what party replaced him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. This, in a nutshell, illustrates the problem. Anything can be rationalized by the apologists.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. "The apologists."
Got any other cool labels?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. That's "one line"
They post one-liners and never-EVER engage in any dialog at all.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. maybe, 'the Rationalists'?
:)
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Define apologist.
Heh! It's a trick question because you only post 1-line posts and never respond to replies!

:rofl:
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. anyone who supports Obama and the Democratic Party Leadership
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. damnit!!
You cheated :evilgrin:
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good post.
I disagree with your stance on HCR, even though I am a single payer proponent. Still, your post is thoughtful, thought-provoking and positive. It promotes discussion. DU needs much more of that.

Thank you.

Cheers!

:toast:
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. well written op, I am disheartened that some attacked it....its not so cut and dry
as so many seem to think, I honestly wish it were that easy..our reality at this point is that the money men are in charge and we need to realize that at the present time they have more power than not only we but our representitives as well sad as that truth is. all in all, I wish you would have had some of those being snarky to you using their brains to do otherwise, brains I know they have because they have proven it already so I question why the snarkiness instead of well thought out responses in kind.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Trust me, it's not the post they are attacking...
it's me. And that's fine. If they want to do so, I've grown accustom to it. I've learned you can't be reasonable here and not have a thick skin. But thank you for your support. It is appreciated.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. I will apologize if you took that as a personal attack
I have nothing against you personally, I just didn't like the premise of the OP. I should have used gentler language in my rebuttal.

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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
70. Your response proves that though we have our moments, all in all, there remains
many valuable minds that ensure du remains above the rest...unlike some forums on the net du is as H20 man states...a "public" think tank, I understand why so many are on edge these days, mind you, I am up there at the top of the heap but in the end...the louder voice does not always get heard most times it simply gets drowned out by others attempting to be even louder leaving nothing to be heard but screeching and the problems facing the everyday citizens of this country are just to important to be drowned out and not be heard..

Both you and the op have taught me much..two different sides of the coin but in the end, we are on the same side, all of us .

I appreciate good minds being able to not only compromise but admit when they are wrong..so thank you and you have proven me right to trust you even when you have your bad days it lends more to your value at being heard in the future..
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. The only difference between Lieberman and Landrieu, Nelson, Nelson and Baucus....
is that Lieberman LOST his primary.

I'm sure that you didn't always think Lieberman was
such a bad guy...

I can well remember DLCers around here telling us that
Lieberman "had one of the MOST LIBERAL VOTING RECORDS
of all Senators!"

Even though he was CLEARLY on the Neo-Con side.

CLEARLY.


"Hate me if you must. But I will not stand aside while unsubstantiated attacks are made against the people who are best able to serve our interests."

I'd like to know what you call your attacks against Jane Hamsher...sacrifice away!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
60. Complicity is CONSENT.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Drama or irony intended?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
61. I certainly support your position to be against the Senate bill

But your charachterization of the Senate bill as mere industry reform is, IMHO, not accurate.

OPM has the authority to set price, coverage and even profits of plans in the exchanges.

The MLR is established at a minimum level and states can raise it.

This is a huge expansion of federal power into health care administration not just a few rules.

Nate Silver's point that the current bill is just below the "tepid public option senate bill" is accurate.

Specific citations for the above are here http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/256
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Thanks grantcart. You know, I meant to say reform and regulation, and I neglected to write it
I apologize. You are correct about the difference and my mischaracterization of it.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. very kind response
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 06:31 PM by grantcart
but can we get into the technical part of the bill?


Before the bill was released I posted that two things could redeem the bill:


Government control of MLR

and OPM control of plans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x6647

in the OP I said I was not optomistic.


You can imagine my surprise when the manager's ammendment confirmed both.

edited to add this link http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/256

My work is with federal employees. I know what the OPM has done for them. So if the OPM has some power that would be a good thing



‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.— The Director of the Office
24 of Personnel Management (referred to in this section
25 as the ‘Director’) shall enter into contracts with

snip

7 (at) least 2 multi-State qualified health plans through
8 each Exchange in each State. Such plans shall pro9
vide individual, or in the case of small employers,
10 group coverage.

snip
1 manner in which the Director implements the con
2 tracting provisions with respect to carriers under the
3 Federal employees health benefit program under
4 chapter 89 of title 5, United States Code, including
5 (through negotiating with each multi-state plan)—
6 ‘‘(A) a medical loss ratio;
7 ‘‘(B) a profit margin;
8 ‘‘(C) the premiums to be charged; and
9 ‘‘(D) such other terms and conditions of
10 coverage as are in the interests of enrollees in
11 such plans.




This then is not simply reform and regulation but a change in the Federal Government's role in health care.

They are going to dictate the MLR for large plans

They are going to negotiate for small plans and individuals and dictate the parameters of the plan.

Humana (more information at the link) is a HC provider that is almost exclusively in the federal market.

Their profit off of operations - less than 2%. Now this isn't public option but it is about as close as you can get.

That is why all Democratic Senators are for it.






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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. While the OPM will take on a new role in health care, it's still in the form of regulation
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 07:57 PM by berni_mccoy
And that does not mean it does not merit the consideration you are calling out here either.

However, the problem I have, that many others have, are in the details of how this will be enforced and the play that is allowed with the accounting and definitions of profit. I am concerned that there will be enough wiggle room for wide-spread abuse. I'm not saying I'm right, it's just a concern and why I'm not behind this solution (yet). I still have more research to do, as I noted, and I appreciate the links you have provided. I will read them.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. OPM will acting in the form of exchange administrator not a regulator


It will be an operational agency. This is the most misunderstood part of the entire bill.


Do you recall lots of progressive Congressman and Senators saying that the people could be happy if they could only buy the same type of health care that federal employees get?


That is what OPM does. It doesn't regulate it controls the FEHB exchange which is the model. (Federal Employee Health Benefit)


What would that look like?


You can go on this link and put in your zip code and see what kind of plans that OPM has approved in your zip code:


http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/search/plansearch.aspx

This is what a health exchange run by OPM looks like
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
64. Rec and the kick that goes with it
Thanks for you clear statement on where you stand. It bothers me when OP's like this get Unrecs, so here is one Rec toward counterbalencing that. Bah.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
67. Then why do you carry water for those who support it?
It's one thing to disagree with the stance of those like Jane Hamsher, it's quite another to join in on the talking points used to attack her because of her stance on this issue. How reasonable is it to expect people not to think you're in favor of the Senate bill when you so vociferously attack her in the same manner.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
69. So because Pat Buchanan hates NAFTA, we have to support it? n/t
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