Do you believe horse racing is cruel?

[RiverStone]

Really sad to hear about Barbaro... :cry:

This beautiful horse suffered a horrendous injury while racing and despite many valiant attempts to save him, he died today 8 months post injury.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/01/29/barbaro.ap/index.html?cnn=yes



QUESTION: Do you believe horse racing is cruel?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. No.

Although I suspect breeding of race horses is quite similar to breeding race dogs.

[Gman]

3. They can't be similar

A horse's gestation period is many times more than a dog and a dog has several pups at a time.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. And?

[dysfunctional press]

15. race horses aren't allowed to be the product of artificial insemination...

does dog-racing breeding have the same restriction?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. I don't know.

But artificial insemination is irrelevant to my point.

In purebreds you've got the intrinsic problem of when you select for a specific trait, such as speed, you're also going to end up selecting for a flaw as well. For example with race horses you've got speed, but you've got very light, fragile bones as well. Look at Barbaro, he didn't break his leg in a fall, it just snapped as he was running along. That shouldn't have happened.

And then there's inbreeding.

[Virginia Dare]

2. I attended my last Virginia Steeplechase about five years ago...

I've seen too many beautiful animals go down. It's very tragic. I've had enough, screw tradition.

[Rude Horner]

5. The part that is cruel is that

they are asked to race at too early of an age, before their bones are fully developed.

[lonestarnot]

39. Bones are developed at 2 years old.

Trainers run sore horses for the dough.

[philosophie_en_rose]

6. Not inherently.

Some horses like to run. Just like some greyhounds like to run.

But, of course, that does not mean that the industry around horse racing isn't cruel. It is cruel to see what happens to many animals.

[Scout]

7. I said maybe...

it depends entirely on the trainers and owners. Horses can be trained and raced without harming, but they can also be horribly abused and misused.

[AngryOldDem]

12. Exactly

<<Horses can be trained and raced without harming, but they can also be horribly abused and misused.<<

I truly believe that Barbaro's owners wanted him to get well out of pure love for him, not out of a profit motive or any other kind of greed. I constrast that with Seattle Slew's owners, who raced that horse almost to death after being told numerous times that the horse needed to have sufficient rest between races. To me, THAT is cruelty.

There is just something about horses, race horses in particular. They are beautiful, elegant creatures. It was very upsetting to hear the news this morning, although I think a lot of us knew that it would eventually come to this. Everyone -- including him -- put forth a gallant effort, though. Can't ask for anything more than that.

[Fovea]

8. Bad breeding stock

Sometimes traits you really desire in a race horse (for want of a simple way to describe it let's call it) such as an improved power to weight ratio means a loss of robustness, as robust bones are heavy bones.

If the breeders association would pull its head out of the cash drawer for a moment, this situation would improve, IMO.

[kestrel91316]

9. Horse racing is not inherently cruel Horses, believe it or not,

are DESIGNED TO RUN. They are running machines.

Doesn't mean there aren't greedy, uncaring people in the racing biz. But Barbaro's owners are not greedy and uncaring. Nor are the veterinarians and staff who tried so hard to save him.

This is a sad outcome of the sport sometimes. At least there is medical insurance for these horses so they can get state-of-the-art care...............and the newer pain meds have made a lot of difference, from what I hear.

[Divernan]

18. This is the outcome of the sport the vast majority of the time.

See my post #16 below for more detail - re thousands of uninjured, but too slow to win, thorobreds put down every year.

A healthy stallion could be scheduled to breed 40 mares per year - that's $20 million per year.
The stud fees for less successful stallions were as high as $500,000 per mare back in 2005. I'm wondering if the owners were collecting semen from this stallion since his accident. ON EDIT: I may be wrong about the artificial insemination - just googled it and it appears that Thorobred breeding does not allow that. However the hope that Barbaro could recover enough to be bred would be quite an incentive to pay for extraordinary medical care.

Here's an article from a Lexington, KY paper. Note the fees for these stallions who were not nearly as successful as Barbaro.
Top stud fees for 2005
Horses who will stand at stud in Kentucky next year at a price of $100,000 or more (the fee listed is the amount a mare's owner will pay for the female to be mated in 2005 to one of these stallions):
Horse Farm Fee

Storm Cat Overbrook $500,000

A.P. Indy Lane's End $300,000

Kingmambo Lane's End $300,000

Gone West Mill Ridge $150,000

Giant's Causeway Ashford $135,000

Awesome Again Adena Springs $125,000

Seeking the Gold Claiborne $125,000

Horse Farm Fee

Unbridled's Song Taylor Made $125,000

El Prado Adena Springs $100,000

Elusive Quality Gainsborough $100,000

Empire Maker Juddmonte $100,000

Fusaichi Pegasus Ashford $100,000

Mineshaft Lane's End $100,000

Smarty Jones Three Chimneys $100,000

[kestrel91316]

34. Euthanasia is the outsome for MOST horses of all sorts in the

US. When they are old or sick or whatever, they are PUT DOWN.

You would prefer "natural death" (aka prolonged suffering until they finally die) to euthanasia????????

How many old, unwanted, lame, unusable horses have YOU adopted, BTW?

[Divernan]

37. I referred to thousands of healthy 2 year olds destroyed for being too slow

in their first speed trials, and also thousands of 6 or 7 year olds who don't win enough purses to offset the costs of racing them. This happens every year. The same thing happens to healthy grayhound puppies and young adults. This may not be pleasant for you to face - but that's what goes on.

I personally have ridden terrific horses who were very healthy and energetic at the ages of 17 and 21, respectively.

Although I haven't personally adopted any old horses, one of my daughters rides at Claremont Stables, in Manhattan, and the riders there do fund raisers for older horses there who are sent to a lovely farm in Maryland to live out their days, once they are too old to be ridden.

You know, I referred to the young age of race horses being killed in my earlier post. Where did you find any reference to horses dying of old age? Do you find the whole subject so alarming that you just freaked out? Your response was needlessly hostile.

Also, see post #23, re being "clueless."

[AZBlue]

25. Yes, but IMO they should not be made to run at a particular time and place to amuse humans.

Put them in a field and let them run when and if they want to - and don't subject them to the abuse and stress of the racing profession.

I agree with you about Barbaro's owners - he was obviously no longer going to race and yet they spent a lot of time and money trying to save him. That had to be because they cared about him - and for the same reason, when it was apparent he'd never live without pain, they let him go. I think they did the right thing.

[Debi]

10. Not horse racing in itself

But I'm sure there are good breeders and bad breeders as well as good trainers and bad trainers and good jockeys and bad jockeys.

Sad about Barbaro, the owners certainly tried to give the horse a life off the track after the injury. Some would have put him down immediately.

[AndyA]

11. I feel very sad for Barbaro. But I'm glad he's not in pain any longer.

I think it's cruel when any animal is bred and raised for a specific reason, be it racing, showing, or whatever. I know most are not abused and are treated very well, but I just think it's cruel to take them out of their natural element.

And I will admit I have two cats who are inside pets. They never go outside, unless it's to the car to go to or from the vet, or if we have them outside on the deck, but even then they are being held or sitting on someone's lap, they are not permitted to run around loose.

They do have the run of the house, we don't close off any rooms to them, and it's a pretty big house with lots of toys to keep them occupied.

I sometimes wonder if this is cruel, but it's for their own protection. And we are home enough that they have lots of company. Still, I know they'd really love to be outside roaming around.

At any rate, I'm sorry to hear about Barbaro, he was a beautiful and talented horse. And he wanted to live so badly. RIP, Barbaro.

[justiceischeap]

13. Yes and it's not just the horses

I don't know if anyone is familiar about how badly the jockeys are treated as well. Often, believe it or not, the end up being anorexic, if they get hurt while racing they have less "health coverage" than the horses.

It's a sad sad "sport" the whole way around.

[Dorian Gray]

14. I was sad to hear about Barbaro...

I was hoping he'd make it and be a success story.

As for racing, I responded I don't know. Because, quite honestly, I don't. I've heard that Harnass racing is less stressful on a horse, but I have no way to know if that's actually true or not.

[Divernan]

16. Thousands of young racehorses are destroyed every year for being too slow.

The cost of feeding, stabling, vetting, shoeing, training and transporting a race horse is very high. Horses which don't demonstrate a "winning" confirmation & speed in early trials are routinely destroyed by breeders/owners. Similarly, even geldings (neutered males) who may have made a profit for their owners are destroyed when they stop winning - no profits to be made from stud fees to offset maintenance costs - and even though these horses could easily live another 10 to 15 years in good health, there's not much market for them as riding horses because their confirmation (build) does not make for comfortable leisure riding. I'm relying for this information on friends who are involved with stable management. So the majority of these magnificent creatures are put down, just like the greyhounds.

And as others have mentioned, horses are raced at too early an age, when their bones have not fully developed - and easily fracture if they put a foot wrong at full gallop. Think about the tremendous weight and those small hooves and delicate legs. In fact, when this accident first happened, my friend predicted precisely the fatally painful complications which have arisen, when a horse's weight is not evenly distributed on its hooves. These particular owners may have truly cared about this great horse, but the traditions of this gambling driven sport stack the odds against survival for horses injured on the track.

[RiverStone]

35. Is this sad information hidden from the public?

So the majority of these magnificent creatures are put down, just like the greyhounds.

Does this very sad information ever see the light of day? It seems if the general public was fully aware of this, there would be enough outrage to help prevent it.

Is there an organization you recommend which advocates for the horses?

Thanks for sharing Divernan.

[Divernan]

38. Google "wild horse" and "advocacy groups"

There are a fair number of those fighting to protect what are left of the mustang herds, and also to stop the slaughter of horses for exporting meat to Europe. Another area in which advocacy groups are active is the abysmal treatment of horses who are put down - crammed in these low ceilinged trucks (where they can't hold their heads erect) for many hundreds of mile trips to the "knackers", and then penned up and hearing other horses screaming as they wait to be killed. Horses are pretty damn smart - and it's really horrible that they are killed in a way that is terrifying to them.

I'm not aware of any groups to protect the Thorobred, and I think the racing industry would really fight any meaningful reforms - i.e., as other posters have noted, breeding the animals for stronger bones, and delaying racing until at least age 4, and as far as I'm concerned, age 6. That's because the owners would have to pay all the high care/maintenance costs for four more years without having any profit coming in.

One decent thing about steeplechasing and competitive jumping is that the horses are older - I saw a 12 year old horse compete in the US Equestrienne jumping competition at the Atlanta Olympics.

I don't know why more people aren't aware of what goes on in the horse racing industry - a great capacity for self-delusion, or disinterest, I think.

[SmokingJacket]

19. It could be, but I believe animals like to perform tasks.

Horses love to run. They don't like to be beaten and mistreated, but they do like to run.

I would condemn the cruelty, but not the racing per se.

[skygazer]

20. I worked in greyhound racing for almost ten years

And I've been a horse person all my life. As far as cruelty goes, the cruelty mainly lies in using up and throwing away young animals. Both dogs and horses are actually treated very well (for the most part) by their trainers and handlers. You read about atrocities but they are most definitely the exceptions to the rule - in dog racing, no one makes enough money to be into it for that. You're in it because you love the animals.

That said, there are thousands, if not millions that are killed every year because they're just not fast enough. That's why I got out - couldn't stand the waste. Though many are adopted, many more are euthanized or end up in experimental labs. Very sad. And they're young - usually less than 2 or 3 years old. (Greyhounds make wonderful pets - for anyone looking to adopt a dog, please consider an ex-racer).

With horses, there are fewer born and they are easier to place because people are always looking for good jumper prospects which Thoroughbreds can be. But they are raced horribly early and quite often their young frames cannot sustain the pressure put on them.

I wish they'd wait until they were older but there's too much money tied up in them and the races are geared to certain age groups. For those reasons, I no longer follow or support racing.

[TZ]

21. Not cruel itself

Most horses love to run. And of course you do have good and bad. I really dislike the part of the sport that makes horses into business objects for profit. But not all of the industry is like that. I think watching horses run is beautiful. As for the broken legs of horses. I am glad that Barbaro's owners tried and did their best. Many wouldn't have cared and just put him down. Barbaro for the most part was okay during the healing process. I even heard at one point he was showing interest in mares. They put him down I think because it was starting to get very bad for him and wasn't likely to get better. I think though that many of the thoroughbreds are fragile because of inbreeding so broken legs happen more frequently (even in non race horses a horse can put a leg down wrong and have a bad break). I enjoy not betting (I personally think that is the real dark part of racing) but watching these beautiful atheletes compete. And like greyhound racing there are groups that try hard to find homes for unwanted ex-racehorses.

[intaglio]

22. Yes it is cruel BUT not inherently so

There are horses that like to run, some of those like to race but not the majority of horses and probably not the majority of horses racing. Horses are not "designed" to run any more than dogs are "designed" to fight, there are only horses and dogs that are bred and trained to those ends and training is where the cruelty first comes in.

Training horses for racing is more damaging than training exceptional human atheletes, not because the training is harder but because a horse cannot say "I get a twinge here when I do that". Trainers will admit that some horses are "lazy" and have to be "encouraged" to train. Remember that some horses never complete training; they are obviously unsuitable for racing or they die or more often are put down because of injuries that cannot be treated. Some horses, if thought to be distracted by their sexuality or growing too slowly, are gelded.

In the race itself there are cruelties, excessive whipping of horses is less prevalent than it was but still happens at smaller meetings. Many horses are terrified of the stalls and many more by the noise of a crowd, this is good from (some) trainers point of view because a frightened horse will run faster. Injuries during racing, with the notable exception of the Aintree Grand National, are rare.

Even so people will try to excuse these myriad cruelties because they riderless horses complete races. They are completing a race not because they "like" racing but because they are staying with the herd - a practise that has been a survival trait for horses for tens of thousands of years.

Despite the catalogue of cruelties I have outlined I still think that there are horse races that are free of cruelty partly because most trainers, jockeys, stablehands, owners and race officials actually like horses.

Please note I am not vegetarian, a member of PETA or the nauseating UK equivalent ALF.

[freethought]

23. Most people have not a single clue about what goes on behind

the scenes at horse races or other equestrian events.
First, as one poster said previously. These race horses are being commanded to perform at the absolute edge of their ability. They racing on a skeletal structure that is not fully developed.
Some may come through it OK, for others it can cause problems later in their lives. That it provided they have a later life at all. If a racing horse does not produce victories for the owner, the next stop is usually dog food.
Second- Horse trainers and owners will often do some cruel things to get a little more speed out of a horse. For the young mares that race they may give the animal injections of male steroids like testosterone to make them more aggressive or get a little more muscle mass on them.
Here's another one. Have you ever heard of "pin-firing". It a procedure done,or used to be done,
on young race horses. A hot needle was used to pierce the skin of a horse's lower legs. A race horse's leg is under fantastic stress. Usually, the animal would be given several days rest to allow the bone some relief from that stress experienced during a race. In fact, the bones of these young horses are being injured and need time to heal. Pin-firing was thought to create substantially increased blood flow to the bones/legs in hopes of accelerating healing or keeping the horses legs and joints in a constant healing state and thus able to race more.

Don't ever think that every owner is as generous as Barbaro's owners. Some years ago,the FBI made a major sting of horse owners and other people who were involved in insurance fraud. This was in equestrian show jumping circuit and not horse racing. These show horses can cost there owners hundred's of thousands of dollars to purchase and many thousands more to keep. Just like the race horses, if these horses don't produce victories they wind up being a drain on the owner's finances.
How does the owner recoup some of their loses? Easy, by a fraudulent insurance claim against insurance policies held on the horse(s). The owner or someone working for the owners would know someone who knows someone else who would make the arrangements. Later, the horse would receive some visitors late at night and be hitched up to a car battery and the juice would be allowed to flow. The act left virtually no trace of what really happened. A vet would arrive to do an examination or necropsy and later the owners would collect a nice big check from the insurance companies. It wasn't until the insurance corps themselves became suspicious after a rash of these horse deaths occurred to horses in peak physical condition in the prime of life. Sadder still was the fact that the FBI had to watch some of these horse executions in order for a crime to be committed and prosecuted.
What was most appalling about these acts was the fact that the owners were some of the wealthiest families in the country. Money was not exactly a problem for these people. I don't believe anyone served any prison time. The whole sordid story received scant press. Most of the owners took plea agreements, paid fines, and did their damnedest to keep their names out of the press.

Many would like to think that race horses and other animals used in sport have owners as generous
as Barbara. The reality is much darker.

[Evoman]

24. I wish I was a race-human, except that I got paid instead of my handlers

And all I had to do was run all day...and then people would pay me to breed, instead of the other way around.

What a life :)

[wildhorses]

26. 2 yr olds whose bones have not finished growing--

if they could at least wait until they have finsihed growing..5 yr old :shrug:

[mvd]

27. Yes, because of the business and big money involved

I've even seen horses forced into the starting gate. And those poor legs - too much chance of tragedy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Ummmmm, Like, No.

[Divernan]

29. Given all the examples of run-of-the-mill cruel practises in this industry,

what WOULD you consider animal cruelty? Evidently executing perfectly healthy young animals who aren't fast enough to win purses is OK with you. Perhaps you should edit your Comment on your profile, which reads:

"It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency, open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good upon all. That is why I'm a liberal."

For you those values don't apply when there's profit to be made?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Nice Try Bub.

The question was whether the act of horses racing is cruel.

Trying to tie my answer of 'no' into an approval of killing the horse is pathetic.

Now if the question was asked "Is it ok to kill a horse for reason x,y or z?" my answer would've been different, dont'cha think?

[Divernan]

36. No, The question was re "horse racing", not the "act of horses racing."

Just as "dog racing" refers to an industry using animals for profit and entertainment, so "horse racing" refers to that activity/practise/industry. If you had read the comments in the thread preceding your own, you would have realized, as did everyone else, what the OP was asking about.

You know "the act of horses racing" is not something which horses naturally do with each other. While some horses love to run, they do not line up at starting lines and race each other for 6 furlongs. Nature gave horses speed so they could escape predators, not to compete with each other. And when I looked at your profile comment with all those warm, fuzzy, self-descriptive adjectives, it didn't match up with your first flip response, nor does it match up with calling me "pathetic". It is good to hear that you don't think it's OK to kill horses.

And do you call all women "Bub"? Strange.

[MrSlayer]

30. Whip the horse to make him run faster.

Absolutely.

[Divernan]

31. How do you feel about cats? or frogs?

nt

[MrSlayer]

32. I love cats. Indifferent to frogs.

Why?

[bklyncowgirl]

40. Not inherently cruel. It's in the nature of the Thoroughbred to run and even race

Just like Labrador Retrievers love water and Border Collies love to make other animals go where they want, Thoroughbred horses love to run and the good ones love to look another horse in the eye and then humiliate him by passing and staying ahead of him.

My horse is a Thoroughbred who never raced--at least officially. Turned out with other horses, he loves to lead the charge around the paddock. I once saw him racing back and forth across the field with a much slower equine buddy. When they turned at the end of the paddock, my horse would wait, let his friend get a few strides ahead and then rush past him. He did this several times until the other horse got tired of the game.

There are abuses in horse racing. I think that the medication that race horses are given have weakened the breed mainly because animals that would have dropped out of training in the past are often successful enough to be bred. Also, pain medication enables horses to keep in training that should have a break. Often a retired horse is so broken down that a second career is not possible. I think that horses should not be raced until they are mature. I wouldn't jump a horse until he's at least four--the same should hold true for racing.