They might be liberals so we ain't gonna let'em vote, but we'll give 'em guns!

[nosmokes]

funny. even if your name resembled that of a felon a few years ago in florida you were tossed off the voter rolls. quite possibly still the case in some counties today? but you wanna gun? raped a few women in the past? diddled some children? found yourself down on your luck and next to a bank and made an unauthorized withdrawal or ten? need a gun cause that asshole across the street dissed your old lady while you were in the pen? NO PROBLEM! this is florida! land of sunny skies, cheap elections and bloody gutters. jeebus.-joe
--###--

original-Houston Chronicle

an. 28, 2007, 2:12PM
Paper: Fla. gives gun permits to felons

© 2007 The Associated Press


FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Hundreds of criminals were able to obtain concealed weapons permits in Florida because of loopholes, errors and miscommunication, a newspaper reported Sunday.

An analysis of state records show the roughly 410,000 Floridians licensed to carry hidden guns included 1,400 who had pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies, 216 with outstanding warrants, 128 named in active domestic violence injunctions and six registered sex offenders, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported.

"I had no idea," said Baker County Sheriff Joey Dobson, who sits on an advisory panel for the state Division of Licensing, which issues permits for carrying concealed weapons. "I think the system, somewhere down the line, is broken. I guarantee you the ordinary person doesn't know (that) ... and I'd venture to guess that 160 legislators in Florida don't know that, either."

The newspaper obtained the names of people on the state's concealed weapons permit list shortly before state lawmakers sealed it from public scrutiny July 1.

Marion Hammer, a Tallahassee lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, blamed law enforcement gaps, "bleeding-heart, criminal-coddling judges and prosecutors" for missteps that put guns in the hands of criminals.

Critics, however, say the NRA pressures lawmakers to ignore the problem.

"The people who are intimately familiar with these laws, the people at the NRA, they know exactly what's going on," said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the nonprofit Violence Policy Center. Florida's gun lobby and the program's administrators "know they're permitting some bad people, but they don't want the general public to know that."
~snip~
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complete article here

[jody]

1. Some people don’t know that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBAS) is a civil right. When a state

restores civil rights without exclusion, that includes RKBA.

18 USC 921

(20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—

(A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or

(B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.

What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

8-1.100 Statutes and Executive Orders Administered by the Civil Rights Division
The following is a list of federal statutes and executive orders administered by the Civil Rights Division.

A. CIVIL STATUTES. 15 U.S.C. §§ 1691e(h), 3151(c); 18 U.S.C. § 248; 20 U.S.C. §§ 1681(a), 1706, 1709; 28 U.S.C. § 1862; 29 U.S.C. §§ 794, 1577(c); 31 U.S.C. §§ 6720, 6721(d); 42 U.S.C. §§ 300w-7(c), 300x-7(c), 300y-9(c), 708(c), 1971, 1973 to 1973ff-4, 1997, 2000a-3(a), 2000a-5(a), 2000b(a), 2000c-6(a), 2000d, 2000e-5(f), 2000e-6(a), 2000h-2, 3613, 3789d(c)(3), 3789d(c)(4)(C), 5309(c), 8625(c), 9906(c), 14141; 3789d(c); 49 U.S.C. §§ 306(e), 1615(a)(4).

B. CRIMINAL STATUTES. 18 U.S.C. §§ 241 to 248, 594, 841 to 848, 875, 876, 924, 1001, 1503, 1504, 1508 to 1513, 1581 to 1594, 1621 to 1623, 2191 to 2196; 42 U.S.C. §§ 300a-8, 1973i(a)-(e), 1973j(a)-(c), 1973aa-3, 1973bb(b), 1973dd-3(b)-(c), 1974, 1974a, 2000e-8, 2000e-10, 3631; 46 U.S.C. §§ 658, 701.

The Civil Rights Division shares enforcement responsibility under some of these statutes with the Criminal Division, generally depending upon whether the matter involves discrimination or intimidation on account of race, or, in the case of those statutes dealing with obstruction of justice, relates to civil rights litigation. See 28 C.F.R. §§ 0.50 and 0.55. The Civil Rights Division has responsibility under 18 U.S.C. § 1001 with respect to false official statements made in connection with alleged violations of federal civil rights statutes.

Note 18 USC 924 is penalties for crimes involving firearms.

SCOTUS has ruled on this issue proving RKBA is a civil right.

IMO it's unfortunate that DUers who support RKBA as a legitimate civil right are not allowed to discuss RKBA on the Civil Liberties forum along with other civil rights.

Fortunately the Democratic Party recognizes RKBA as a civil right and says "We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do." See http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf

[nosmokes]

4. i got nothing against the 2nd amendment, but doncha think the right to vote

might be pretty important as well? and if it comes down to one or the other i'll take the vote, TYVM.

[jody]

5. I agree completely, right to vote is absolutely equal to RKBA. I support all inalienable rights

whether enumerated in the Bill of Rights or protected by the Ninth Amendment as unenumerated rights.

[Turbineguy]

2. So that where all those people who

maintained the voting machines ended up...

[slackmaster]

3. The only "loophole" is the FL law allows for a felon's civil rights to be restored

Eligibility Requirements

You must be a citizen of the United States OR you must be deemed a lawful permanent resident alien by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS formerly INS).

If you are not a citizen of the United States, you must submit documentation issued by the USCIS proving you are a permanent legal resident alien who has resided in your state of residence for at least 90 consecutive days prior to the date the application is submitted. Evidence of proof includes, but is not limited to:

- Utility bills; telephone, power, or cable
- Pay stubs or other documentation from your employer
- Credit card statement
- You must be 21 years of age or older.
- You must be able to demonstrate competency with a firearm.

Possible Reasons for Ineligibility:

- The physical inability to handle a firearm safely.
- A felony conviction (unless civil and firearm rights have been restored by the convicting authority).
- Having adjudication withheld or sentence suspended on a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence unless three years have elapsed since probation or other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.
- A conviction for a misdemeanor crime of violence in the last three years.
- A conviction for violation of controlled substance laws or multiple arrests for such offenses.
- A record of drug or alcohol abuse.
- Two or more DUI convictions within the previous three years.
- Being committed to a mental institution or adjudged incompetent or mentally defective.
- Failing to provide proof of proficiency with a firearm.
- Having been issued a domestic violence injunction or an injunction against repeat violence that is currently in force.
- Renouncement of U.S. citizenship.
- A dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
- Being a fugitive from justice.

Detailed explanations of these various disqualifying conditions are provided in the Application for the Concealed Weapon/Firearm License.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/eligible.html

[jody]

6. US Attorneys Criminal Resource Manual cites United States v. Ramos.

1435 Post-Conviction Restoration of Civil Rights
A frequently litigated issue under § 922(g)(1) is whether a convicted felon is exempt from the prohibitions of the statute because of a post-conviction restoration of civil rights under State law. In accordance with 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20), a conviction does not disqualify an individual from possessing firearms if the person convicted "has had civil rights restored." In § 922(g)(1) cases based upon a State felony conviction, courts have uniformly looked to the law of the State where the conviction was obtained to determine whether the defendant's civil rights have been restored and whether such action has nullified the conviction's incidental prohibition on firearms possession. With respect to Federal felony convictions, the Supreme Court declared in Beecham v. United States, 511 U.S. 368 (1994), that only Federal law can nullify the effect of the conviction through expungement, pardon, or restoration of civil rights. This is so, the Court ruled, even though there is no Federal procedure for restoring the civil rights of Federal felons.

In United States v. Ramos, 961 F.2d 1003, 1009 (1st Cir.), cert. denied, ___U.S.___, 113 S. Ct. 364 (1992), the court held that the term "restored" in § 921(a)(20) requires the State to make an "individualized official judgment" that the defendant should be excepted from the prohibitions of § 922(g)(1). The Criminal Division takes the position that where State law contains any provision purporting to restore civil rights -- either upon application by the defendant or automatically upon the completion of a sentence -- it should be given effect. It is not necessary that the State issue an individualized certificate reflecting the judgment of State officials regarding an individual defendant. The Ramos case should be limited to its unique facts and not extended in attempts to nullify the effect of other State schemes for civil rights restoration. A State restoration document that is absolute on its face should disqualify the affected State felon from prosecution under § 922(g)(1) unless the facts of the case strongly support a finding that the felon had actual notice of his/her continuing State firearms disability despite the terms of the restoration document.

[Redneck Socialist]

7. bleeding-heart, criminal-coddling judges...

"Marion Hammer, a Tallahassee lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, blamed..."bleeding-heart, criminal-coddling judges and prosecutors" for missteps that put guns in the hands of criminals."

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.
:eyes:

Or maybe Florida restores civil rights to people who have served out their sentence.

[aikoaiko]

8. I don't understand: is there a loophole or were gun rights restored?

:shrug:

kicked and rec'ed.

[krispos42]

9. Probably both

I also imagine that if some of the crimes were non-violent, that might also explain why a 'felon' is able to get a permit, depending, I guess, on Florida law.

Former South Dakota Bill Janklow recently got his record expunged three years after he he finished serving his sentence for killing a motorcyclist by running a stop sign. 2nd-degree manslaughter. He could have gotten ten years. He got a hundred days in jail (by a judge he appointed. Go figure!), and now can vote and own guns because he was a good boy for three years after he was released.

[benEzra]

11. Writing a bad check to a restaurant in Florida is a felony, IIRC (n/t)

[krispos42]

12. Used to be that vagrancy was a felony

Right after the slaves were freed.

Hmmm... any connection there? Freshly emancipated slaves with no homes or money but the right to vote all of a sudden are being made into felons that can't vote?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. Yet another reason I'm glad I live in the UK and not the US.

NT

[krispos42]

13. Have fun with that

The UK's homicide rate has doubled in the last 40 years. Ours is down by 11%. And you guys get photographed by the police several hundred times per day just doing your everyday normal errands and activities.

And I've heard about the new national government database of both medical information and identification data. So now your DNA, fingerprints, and retina scan is going to be on file? From birth, not just after being arrested?

Trust me, the number of felons legally carrying a concealed pistol is far, far, far lower than the number of felons illegally carrying a concealed pistol.

[shield20]

16. Yep - GREAT place!

In the UK, you won't be able to take a dump without someone snapping your picture, checking the temperature of the water, and standing by with the correct paper to wipe your arse with.

They used to have something called "rights" there too - remember reading about something - from 1689 I think?

"That the subjects which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions, and as allowed by law."

Something changed apparently...guess they figure a victim's right to defense is no longer as important as the criminal's right to impose his will on him. Glad its working out so well!

[Irreverend IX]

14. There's no way this was intentional.

Florida, like all states, prohibits people with felonies, warrants or domestic violence convictions from owning weapons, much less carrying concealed. Every time someone purchases a gun or applies for a permit a background check is conducted. If the background checks didn't turn reveal that these people were ineligible, it's a problem with the system and not any state policy. But in any case, a felon who plans to commit a crime with a gun won't purchase it legally and certainly won't bother trying to get a concealed carry permit.

[shield20]

15. Its not a loophole - just the law.

Convicted felons cannot get gun licenses under state and federal law.

Florida law allows people CHARGED with felonies to obtain licenses to carry guns three years after they complete their sentences so long as a judge "withholds adjudication."

The defendants plead guilty or no contest. They serve probation, complete community service, obtain counseling, pay fines or fulfill other requirements. When they successfully complete the terms, they have NO CRIMINAL RECORD.

The break often is given to first- or second-time offenders in instances in which the state's case is weak, and a plea deal appears to be the best option for defendants without the money to mount a strong defense, legal experts said. But it also has aided people ACCUSED of violent felonies, sometimes repeatedly.

The Sun-Sentinel found more than 1,400 people, such as Rodriguez, with gun licenses who had felony convictions "WITHHELD" from their records.

"What you're talking about is taking away the rights of people who have not been convicted and punished for crimes because the court decided to give them a pass," "How can a state agency take rights away from people when a court refuses to?"


Yeah - lets blame the NRA.

[benEzra]

17. I'll bet there are also people accused of felonies

who are teaching in schools, working in day cares, driving school buses, and working as police/security officers...good point.