Noam Chomsky on the Teabaggers

[Puregonzo1188]

In light of the recent controversy of Arianna Huffington's remarks on the Tebaggers I found this to be interesting.

There is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left to ridicule them. But that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances. I listen to talk radio a lot and it's kind of interesting. If you can sort of suspend your knowledge of the world and just enter into the world of the people who are calling in, you can understand them. I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun. I do everything I'm supposed to do. And I'm getting shafted." And, in fact, they are getting shafted. For 30 years their wages have stagnated or declined, the social conditions have worsened, the children are going crazy, there are no schools, there's nothing, so somebody must be doing something to them, and they want to know who it is. Rush Limbaugh has answered: it's the rich liberals who own the banks and run the government and run the media. They don't care about you. They just want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and gays and communists and so on.

The reaction we should be having to them is not ridicule, but self-criticism. We are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh. There are historical analogs, which are not exact, of course, but are close enough to be worrisome. This is a whiff of early Nazi Germany. Hitler was appealing to groups with similar grievances and giving them crazy answers, but at least they were answers: that is, they blame the Jews and the Bolsheviks. They were the problem.

More at the link http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/23178

[cali]

1. sorry, Noam, that's fucking delusional.

same delusion entertained by Tom Hartmann. The left cannot organize these people. The prominent streaks of racism and xenophobia defy such efforts. I pay attention to them too.

[NYC_SKP]

4. I think it's more productive to engage some of their discontent, better than bashing.

All of them are ignorant of the facts, and to the extent that we can find the common ground and provide some truthful context, many of these who don't see alternatives because they're surrounded by the haters, some of these could come around.

Alternatively, just lashing out at them only steels their resolve.

[cali]

6. and they think we're ignorant of the facts, or worse.

there is not enough common ground to stand on.

[kentuck]

20. Right. Where would we find agreement?

That we are spending too much without paying for it? Deficits and debt?

That the government is all knotted up by special interests and inaction from the elected people?

That something, not yet defined, needs to be changed?

That the big banks put the screws to us and the economy?

[bkozumplik]

36. its the story of the frog and the scorpion crossing the water

We are the frog. They are the scorpion. They will not change, its who they are.

[jtuck004]

69. Well, they want their family to be safe

they want safe food
they want respect
they want safe roads to drive on
they want their jobs to feel assured
they want to be free to practice their religion
- probably much like everyone else

beyond that there are some racial and class divisions, and certain disagreement about why those things are threatened, but we have to set those aside and figure out where we can join. Maybe it would take a movement outside of the Democratic party, outside of the Republican party? Maybe people inviting neighbors to their home or an auditorium to figure out what they can get together on...

Many years ago Myles Horton at the Highlander Folk School (now the Highlander Research and Education Center) was trying to organize miners in Appalachia. This was in a time when black and white people did not even use the same restroom, did not eat together. Much like some Demos and Repubs today.

Horton brought them together, away from the influences of their daily lives, into the slightly warm environ of the hills in North Carolina, and began to engage them in conversations about what was threatening their jobs. Everyone was quite at odds with each other.

It was hot, and the only source of water was a well. And only one cup. As they got thirsty, they found that it was possible to get over some deep-seated fears and hatreds to drink from the same cup.

And after some hours and days of talking, they began to find that their real opponent was the mine owner, not each other.

Common ground can start with the smallest things.

Note, I did not say it would be easy. Horton was beaten, shot at, had his school taken away in Tennessee. He worked in the civil rights movement, yet in an awards ceremony black people he had worked with would not take his hand in front of the cameras. He said it wasn't important, because they were making progress, and he was correct.

Common ground is there. How this translates to today is the question, and the implementation is for people with more resources than I have. But if it can't the future is bleak.

[DeadEyeDyck]

164. the division is more simple than we are making it. I know,

I have a lot of RW friends.

If you asked a RW'er what they want, they would tell you to get the government out of the way. They will tell you to reduce taxes, reduce spending, several of the libertarian types want us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop all foreign aid.

I have had this argument several times and some elements are intriging. What is always comes down to is, "we don't want help from the government. Just get the government out of the way and we will help ourselves."

In some ways, many of them are closed to being anarchists.

And to be honest, as a bi-racial male, I have yet to run across racism. I have been told on numerous occassions that I was welcome if I held the same beliefs.

[duhneece]

220. I want your compassion and reason

I get too stuck in getting pissed at 'them' even tho' I know that is neither helpful, useful, nor productive. Thanks.

[RedCloud]

96. They hate the SC-5 decision to let the corps run the elections.

Maybe they should ask billionaire Limbaugh for a bailout.

[Enthusiast]

167. They hate it?

I have never heard any Teabagger criticism of the SC-5. If they would only recognize the real enemy.

[leveymg]

114. Yes, yes, let's help them define what what the problems are, and YES! As Dillinger put it, that's

where the money is. There's a lot of common ground, why should we let the Extreme Right define it?

[abelenkpe2]

21. There is very little ground

You are correct. Teabaggers and Libertarians are amazing pigheaded proudly ignorant and eager to see our government fail. However, if the democrats were to enact strong financial reform and stand up to wall street it would go a long way to creating a tiny bit of common ground. By not doing this democrats risk being seen as supporting wall street.

[SergeStorms]

154. "proudly ignorant".........

that sums it up in two words. :banghead: The world is filled with "proudly ignorant" people, which is why we have so much hate, war, etc. And you can't talk any sense to them. If you disagree with their POV you are automatically "the enemy" and an impenetrable force field goes up that NOTHING can get past. Especially the truth. "Proudly ignorant". That describes about half of Americans, I would venture.

[Enthusiast]

168. You gots it!

Strong financial reform. Allowing the Democratic Party to take on the mantle of the "Party of the Big Banks" appears to me to be an act of treason to my party.

[Enthusiast]

166. I have heard no

Teabagger criticism of the SCOTUS decision on corporate influence.

So, where is the common ground?

These people think Obama is a communist, not because of his ideology, but because his administration is full of czars, lol.

How could we find common ground with such? The only common ground is anger.

[quaker bill]

169. You don't need to make peace

with your friends. It is only necessary to make peace with those with whom you share little common ground. You are correct, this is not easy.

[Extend a Hand]

230. I don't think he is suggesting that we stand on common ground

or even reason with them. I think he means that we should provide them with "answers" that they can understand.

[Cosmocat]

12. N O T A C H A N C E

There is NO middle ground with these people ...

Barrack Obama is nothing if not RELENTLESS in letting crape roll off his shoulders, reaching out to people and TRYING to get people to have a civil discussion ...

These arsehats think he is the spawn of Joseph Stalin and Satan ...

There is NOTHING anyone on the "left" or for that matter anyone dealing in reality, can do to get these people focused in any meaningful way ... If you are not talking about cutting taxes and destroying the government, they want nothing to do with it ...

[cali]

14. don't forget immigration. they're hatefully anti-immigrant.

[Cleita]

19. Not all of them. They are wondering where their jobs are going and

the Lou Dobbs and Glenn Becks of the world provided them with a scapegoat for them to deflect the blame on, the poor immigrant instead of the billionaires who sent their jobs overseas.

[abelenkpe2]

22. exactly. nt

[cali]

25. every teabagger site I've been to and everything I've heard

from them demonstrates to me that they're far less concerned with jobs than they are with wingnut religion, racism and xenophobia.

[Cleita]

28. That's because they've been so propagandized they can't think.

Most of them are semi-literate anyway as you can tell by the spelling and grammar on the message boards.
The scales are falling off the eyes of some of them. Some of the callers-in on Thom Hartmann, Ed Schultz and Randi Rhodes are heartbreakingly inarticulate but yet they are able to state that they are realizing that they have been had. They have admitted voting for George Bush and wish they hadn't. Many of them say that the only information that they get is from Rush Limbaugh et al and Fox News because there basically is no other choice in many parts of the country. They have found the progressive shows through XM/Sirius radio and streaming on the internet and have told the talk show hosts that they are glad they found them because they started realizing that they are being lied to. Goebbels knew what he was doing when he took over 98% of the media in Nazi Germany including movies. This is why people are willing to go out in public and make fools of themselves for the likes of Sara Palin and the rest of money cartel that call themselves Republicans.

[Enthusiast]

170. So right you are, Cleita.

Although many of them have never entertained the idea that Dick Armey might have guided them wrong.

[Mojorabbit]

121. My experience

with some really well educated people like this is they lack empathy.

[Uncle Joe]

66. Self-delete due to error.

[Uncle Joe]

67. If there is no middle ground, there is an unbridgeable fault line and if you allow this fault line

to continually exist, you empower Limbaugh, Beck and the neocon powers that be; who are more than willing to magnify these people's fears and hatred as a means to obtain power.

Divide and conquer is used against groups of people based on their differences, not their similarities.

I believe Chomsky is correct and the best way to prevent the United States from going down the path of 1930s Germany is to fight fire with water, not more fire.

I also believe we must find a way to make an emotional connection in order to neutralize the hate filled fascist propaganda coming from the right, as that will be the best strategy to bring about positive, progressive change.

P.S. This is a repost, above post registered as error.

[snagglepuss]

100. Well said.

:applause:

[Odin2005]

125. To parrot Buddhist thinking, hate must be cured with love, not more hate.

[Cosmocat]

191. Yeah ,...

again, whatever makes you feel better about yourself ...

I am not speaking for ME, I am speaking for them VERY clearly ...

When you cut to it with these people it is the same friggen cut taxes BS repackaged ... It does not matter ONE iota if someone on the left is "looking for middle ground" there is NO middle ground with THEM ...

Again, we have the most wonderfully patient and maganimous president, who has never said a bad word about these people, who preaches about trying to have civil discussions, and they continue to lambast him in every possible unreasonable manner ...

I have had conversations with these teabag types and they have no capacity to find a middle ground ... Literally, for years I have talked to people like these, and I am a moderate in my positions, and I remain some kind of characture to this people - the "liberal" ... I am not who I am in reality, I am what Rush and company tells them ...

These people are NOT "lost" they are no moderates or independents ... They are republicans who are simply are engaging in high scale sedition and low scale revolution ...

[Uncle Joe]

248. Do you believe "those people" are acting against their own best interests?

If the answer is yes, then logic dictates, they have been brainwashed. If the answer is no then logic dictates, their point of view must have some (not all) validity.

This has nothing to do whether I feel better or not.

To group an entire people and claim to speak for them is the height of arrogance and only serves to give more ammunition to the hate filled messengers ie: Limbaugh, Beck etc. etc.

You can look at this in either an idealistic point of view, trying to beat hate with love, a logical pragmatic point of view as I've just posted on this post or a more cynical point of view, why make it easier for the powers that be; which you claim to hate to divide and conquer the people?

I believe under any circumstance, idealism, logic or cynicism reaching out has a superior chance of success.

The conversations you speak of, I've had as well and some of them still don't believe all though some have come around.

Finally if you believe the President is wonderfully patient and magnanimous, then it goes to reason those virtues have served him well throughout his life and contributed to his successful rise to power.

[Odin2005]

124. You are falling victim to the same type of hateful divisive rhetoric they are using.

There is no such thing as people with absolutely nothing in common. Such thinking leads first to the dehumanization of the other side, then re-education camps, then gas chambers. One becomes what one hates. I do not hate these people, I pity them.

[Cosmocat]

190. Well, if having "pity" on them ...

somehow makes you feel like you are a better person, more power to you ... And, the rest of your projection on me has little to do with me ...

My point stands ... BO is as magnanimous as any human being toward EVERYONE, and he goes WELL beyond what you could reasonable expect in trying to not negatively cast people and to try to bring people on board ...

And, this "convention" this weekend is all BO is satan, stalin all the time ...

As someone else said, these people are not some "lost" people or some sort of true independents or moderates ... They are Rs who are trying to recast themselves, but will NEVER, N E V E R support a D ...


BTW, try your "pity" thing on these people and see how far it gets you ...

[grantcart]

243. +1

I would add that we should still be brutally truthful about the hate that they spout. When they take up attacks that are clearly racist and attacks on the poor then they should be identified as such.

[truedelphi]

136. You are putting a sensible spin on what Hartmann and now Chomsky are

Saying. It bugs me to see the Right always being be-littled, because their grievances are ours as well.

It's just that we don't thump a Big Black book while we complain, or point to a weird notion that calamities occur because God is giving up on our society due to "Homosexuals."

[Mithreal]

149. +1

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

155. Agreed n/t

[roseBudd]

44. I agree, they actually think "libs" is a word in the dictionary, and are not the least bit self

conscious about being identified by the lexicon of Limbaugh

[Fla_Democrat]

61. those poor, dumb, bastids.....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lib




:smoke:

[HughMoran]

47. The "whiff of early Nazi Germany" isn't though

As repulsive as the thought of trying to organize mindless followers is, if a truly charismatic wacko gets a hold of these morans, buy guns, lots and lots of guns.

[Marr]

53. It's not so much a matter of organizing *these* specific people, but

people like them. I agree with Chomsky's comments, personally.

There's an enormous, angry working class in this country, and the only people willing to address them are scam artists and political propagandists like Rush Limbaugh. He gets the ones that are open to nonsensical arguments, but the angry working class is a hell of a lot bigger than the tea party crowd.

The soil is very fertile for left wing populism, but our political establishment is never going to address it. A left wing populist movement could steamroll this fraud left-wing party we've got.

[Mr Rabble]

99. You said it Marr. Right on! nt

[Enthusiast]

172. Yeah, and Obama doesn't

have a populist bone in his body, as someone said.

[ChiciB1]

229. I'm With You Marr... We On The Left, Or If You Want "Moderate" NEED To Start

paying MORE attention! STOP & THINK! WHO is getting ALL the ATTENTION?? Who gets CENTER STAGE, almost all the time?

It' THEM and they ain't going away, THEY are growing! For far too long now I've been saying "we" need a MOVEMENT if only to counteract! Yet, we sit back and make fun of them while they KEEP organizing AND GROWING! Chomsky has been around for a very long time and I would stand with him any time!

There MUST come a time when we too will get fed up enough to say ENOUGH! ENOUGH that really means ENOUGH! Yet here we are, laughing and cat calling, making fun when we probably should be mounting a DEFENSE!

What do I KNOW? I know that I'm getting fed up AND afraid of these people! Anyone who listens to C-Span in the morning will hear the voices LOUD & CLEAR... they may be delusional, but SO WAS HITLER! Or so they tell me, I wasn't there... but HISTORY tells me and has shown me that he was!

I come here only occasionally now because the anxiety I feel gets greater and greater and I just feel like becoming an ostrich and sticking my head in the sand! And yet, I KNOW how STUPID that is! I live in a place where the kind of people exist, and I have NO CLUE as to how to get enough of us rounded up to counter this movement. I've lost HOPE and don't want to feel this way, but I don't know what to do!

Lately I've just gotten myself a pile of books to read and spend more and more time immersed there. NOT healthy, and not something that will bring me out of this funk! I'm MORE than concerned, but my brain is stuck and my heart aches! Depressing isn't it? Sorry to dump, but I'm in THAT place and I can't seem to shake off this feeling. And yes, I'm seeing a doctor... still meds aren't really the answer. At least not for me. I HATE the meds! Only makes a person more of a zombie.

JMHO!

[girl gone mad]

68. You just can't help yourself.

Pathetic.

[suede1]

82. She must owe 1,000 apologies on this site by now.

[D23MIURG23]

86. Exactly. You can't extend an offer to someone who is unwilling to hear you...

and you can't persuade someone who's mind is closed.

This also isn't really an issue of the so called "tea party movement". The right has been a frothing cesspit of jingoistic hate and nihilism since way before Obama took office, and Rush Limbaugh has been has been broadcasting since 1984. "Tea party" is a new name for an old disease: the "conservative movement".

[dotymed]

185. Obviously,

You have never had joint custody of a teenager whose mother has as her main goal, parental alienation. It is NOT easy, but if you want something bad enough, you CAN do it.

[D23MIURG23]

246. What a stupid analogy; that is a completely different situation.

Obviously I haven't, and obviously that has nothing to do with the Democratic party reaching out to the right wing. Is there some court ruling I don't know about that legally compels the teabaggers to have anything to do with our politicians? Is there some other way that an episode of marital strife relates to our politicians trying to win over a bunch of mis-educated, closed minded fascists with whom they have no personal connection?

Seriously dude, I'm glad you didn't lose your teenager, but "you can do anything if you try hard enough" is way to broad a lesson to draw from that experience.

[Mr Rabble]

98. You mean "Democrats" cannot organize them, not "the left".

Because the left certainly can organize them, if they had any opportunity to do so. They dont, as the Democratic party makes damn sure that anyone to the left of Attila is marginalized.

With all due respect, if you think that Noam Chomsky is delusional and you are then willing to assert so on a public forum, your opinion and understanding of the world is likely less than relevant.
You may not like him, but Chomsky is one of the most lucid, thoughtful, articulate thinkers in history.

[tavalon]

109. Yes, he is, and as repulsive as I find these racists to be,

I think they need education more than they need our derision. Bob Marley believed we could cure racism by exposing people to positive racial experiences like great music from great black artists. I want to believe that Bob Marley was right.

[dotymed]

189. Amen

I was raised in the very racist, deep south, Marley is now one of my all-time favorite musicians. His message is powerful and sometimes, brings a tear to my eye....

[On the Road]

232. Yes, and I'm Sure Chomsky Knows the Nazis Recruited

a lot of their base from former Communists. It is not uncommon for people to swing from one political extreme to the other. Just hasn't happened muchin this country lately, largely due to cultural and ethnic factors IMO.

[Warren Stupidity]

112. so much for civility.

[Ishoutandscream2]

118. "Civility" is not in her vocabulary

[jimlup]

123. No - as usual he's spot on

Suspend your revulsion for just a moment and realize how ignorant these teabaggers really are. Why are we letting Sarah Palin, Rush Limpdick and FAUx news play them.

We have truth on our side but we need to present it in a way that the ignorant masses can grasp. We "progressives" have not succeeded in that.

[ekwhite]

143. You are calling Thom Hartmann and Noam Chomsky delusional?

That takes a lot of chutzpah. The left can and has organized PRECISELY these types of people. Look up the Wobblies, or Shay's rebellion. A lot of THESE people are my friends and family. There is a strong streak of classism in the left, especially in the limousine liberals in the Los Angeles area. I have a tea party type next door, and I certainly am on better terms with him than some of the so-called liberals in my neighborhood.

[radhika]

144. Populism is just the cover .....

For racism, Xtian dominionism, anti-science, xenophobia and an authoritarian world view. If they were really concerned about the economy, corporatism, debt and the bailout we'd have heard from them during Bush's term.

No - it is folly to fantasize that Progressives can align with the 'baggers.

[quaker bill]

177. You assume rationality

and this is generally a mistake. Hitler was freely elected. This was not a rational act.

The assumption of rationality was the driving force behind bank deregulation. Greenspan assumed that bankers and folks with great sums of money would behave rationally, this is the core of the Friedman - Smithian economic point of view. There is now trillions of dollars worth of proof that assumptions of rational behavior are specious at best, and near fatal at worst.

There is no reason to believe that folks who are "really concerned" about anything will behave in any remotely rational or evenhanded manner. History is replete with examples of just the opposite.

[Zoeisright]

146. I agree. Those people are NOT going to listen to reason. They're repukes for a reason.

Because they are STUPID, and MEAN. And stupid and mean is the basis for the repuke party. They preach hate and bigotry and not taking responsibility for anything. Stupid and mean people are conservative because it's easy.

[quaker bill]

176. I spent much of the 1980's

protesting Reagan and listening to real world liberals whine on about how the American public was too stupid, ignorant, racist, xenophobic, insensitive, materialistic..... to understand our ideas and unite with them.

It worked as a rationalization for the question "why if our ideas are so good, moral, and correct, do so few people join in?". It still serves as a great reason for not really trying.

No one in their right mind thinks such a thing would be easy, I am sure Chomsky harbors no such illusions.

The point he makes is correct, providing irrational one line excuses and scapegoat groups is the typical propoganda path to very ugly things.

The union movement, on the other hand, arose under the same circumstances to address many of the same issues. It also got a bit ugly on occasion, but worked on creating unity rather than social division to accomplish its goals.

[MadHound]

178. Not delusional at all,

I live among these people, and with a bit of work we can sway these people to our side. Hell, I did that last year, pulled in a number of votes for Obama that way. Sure, there are always going to be those diehards that simply aren't persuadable, but for the most part if you stop dismissing these people as racist yahoos and actually started listening to them, started talking with them, you can bring them into the fold.

[bread_and_roses]

180. The Democrats can't organize them. That doesn't mean they can't be organized

What, do you think they are not human? That there is something fundamentally different about these people than poor and working class people elsewhere around the globe?

The Democrats can't organize them because the Democrats are part of the power structure that has been screwing them for years. And what is laughably called "the left" in this country can't organize them because they are in bed with the Democratic Party, so that you have coalitions like HCAN - composed of what these people have been taught to think of as "the left" - pushing a technocratic and incomprehensible "solution" to the health care crisis that takes hundreds of pages to explain to protect the Democrats instead of presenting a clear and focused demand for the only real solution and a clear and plain story of exactly who benefits from the current system.

The economic crisis posed a perfect opportunity for the so-called "left" in the US to tell the story of exactly how the working class has been screwed and to demand justice for workers and "the Commons." Did that happen? No. Instead, we had what is called "the left" again coalescing around saving TPTB.

That "the left" (and throughout this rant when I refer to "the left" I am referring to the mainstream organizations and pundits that are called on to trot out "solutions" that gloss over the facts of class oppression in this country with mealy-mouthed and fundamentally dishonest "solutions" that offer the hoi polloi a few more scraps and bones while supporting the power structure) looked at a populace in a rage at Banksters and Insurance Vampires and then offered "solutions" that enshrined those very powers tells us everything we need to know about who's side they're on.

Humans are fundamentally drawn to coherent stories. Those stories might not be true, but a coherent lie will win out over a convoluted half-truth every time. The "tea-baggers" have a coherent narrative offered to them by their puppet-masters. A two-thousand page fundamentally dishonest health bill cannot counter that. And that's all either the Democrats or "the left" in this country offers.

edit: grammatical correction

[dotymed]

181. I agree.

I'm not sure how to do it. Maybe, we could invite them to educational events about the true cause of their disenfranchisement. Really, in my political science course, ignorant, deluded young people (like these teabaggers) make up 90% (guessing) of the students. They, so far do not listen to me or watch the vids I post. There has to be a way to educate these people (in my day, they would have never been accepted to college). They are mostly functionally, illiterate... but they do have the numbers and have been brought up on right-wing fundamentalism. Just like neo-Nazi's. Yes, they have been screwed but they need to learn the truth...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

195. That's a good thought

Even just being willing to talk to them in a civil fashion about these issues, one on one, can be a decent way to open that door.

[corporal waldo]

199. Don't give up

sorry, Noam, that's fucking delusional.
Sorry, cali, but Noam's right and so is the president. Obama's most striking recent attempt at reaching out is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF2XX-dJ5mI

This extremely impressive speech got little coverage apart from the president's perfectly timed dig at the radicals and it's a continuance of the strategy he has been employing since his speeches in 2009.

And honestly I am getting kind of tired of having to explain to these yahoos that they are working against their own interests, only to be shouted down and mocked by them. - bluestateguy

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
-Calvin Coolidge

[4dsc]

201. What a fucking idiot..

[azygous]

212. The only way to reach these people

would be to appeal to the very same character and personality flaws that the GOP is using to manipulate them - their meaness of spirit and selfishness.

We need only find a way to identify the real enemy for them, such as appealing to them to turn on the corporate elites who have their figurative foot on their necks, depriving them of freedom, a living wage, and dignity. In my mind, it's not rocket surgery.

[AlbertCat]

240. sorry, Noam, that's fucking delusional.

So true. The racism is the glue that holds them together, not their "grievances". See, we all have the same grievances, but we don't all blame them on blacks and immigrants. Unlike Germany in the 1930's, racism and bigotry are not as main stream and acceptable.

Besides, the Tea Baggers are a small small group. Not at all as big as the MSM would like you to think they are. They are funded by people who actually look down on them and use them more than we do. Just like the Bushies did with the Christian Right.

[Geek_Girl]

252. I think the way to engage them is for Democrats to put forth policies that help the middle class

There is a very easy fix for this. But liberals can't engaged them because our party is just as fucked up as theirs.

[kentuck]

2. Very interesting comment by Noam...

"We are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh."

[Ron Green]

3. "Clinging to their guns and their religion"

is the truth, but it's another sort of simple answer. I wish Obama could say what Chomsky says, but he can't because he's too close to the Banksters.

[abelenkpe2]

17. Agreed.

By not taking on wall street and allowing the bankers to continue with huge bonuses, to keep running too big to fail banks, to lobby congress to not pass reform the democrats appear to be cozy with bankers robbing them of any opportunity to connect with the few more rational tea-partiers. They are also causing doubt among dem supporters. This is a seriously dangerous situation despite what some may choose to believe.

Democrats need to regain the message that they are for the people by distancing themselves from wall street.

[Tiggeroshii]

41. I believe he said something along those lines once

...and didn't it upset lots of people?

[Skink]

5. democrats in congress could address all these problems.

they however are held hostage by the filibuster and the 24/7 campaign.

[omega minimo]

7. that's why ALL the people who went along to go along with 30 years of Reaganism

are RESPONSIBLE for the threat of a Hitler and the fascist shitheap we're buried under now, whichever party they're in. Instead of looking for someone to blame , look in the mirror.

[baldguy]

8. Sure they're getting shafted.

And they've put their faith in the very people & entities that shafted them - the GOP and the corporatocracy - to fix it for them, and they seek to destroy those who would help them - the Dems and real representational democratic govt.

[Bgno64]

16. Yep

And the reality is Democrats CAN'T organize them - as they've been taught to hate liberals and liberalism and define it as the problem.

These right-wing populists will oppose the prospect of new regulations on the big banks. Just you watch.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

193. I question how true that actually is

Have they really put their faith in the GOP, or has the GOP gone to great lengths to co-opt this movement because they saw it as an attack on their right flank?

[SteveM]

9. Yessir! Teabaggers are stealing both our populism and our style.

[baldguy]

11. "We are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh."

And if Chomsky showed up at their "convention" to talk to them, he'd be lynched. He fails to realize that racism & stupidity will trump economic & political self-interest every time.

[cali]

13. exactly. they're far more about those things than they are about economic

inequality.

[kentuck]

23. I remember when Al Franken took them on.

And he nailed them with the facts.

[Political Heretic]

32. Historically, that is provably untrue.

[baldguy]

45. Historically, America didn't have a one-sided propaganda delivery system spreading lies.

Funded by billions of dollars of corporate money, built & maintained for 40 yrs for the sole purpose of keeping the electorate stupid and afraid, believing things which are demonstrably untrue & blaming all the wrong people for their problems.

[Political Heretic]

76. Of course it did.

Propaganda machines have been with us in the US always, their financial capacity relative to the times.

[baldguy]

91. Um, no.

Before the media consolidation of the last 20-30 yrs, most people in the US once had access to a wide range of political opinion. Every city had several newspapers, radio & TV stations - and most all were locally owned & operated and each of which had its own political viewpoint.

It was that way because federal laws supported it - mandated it in fact.

National media networks were the exception, and often only continued because of massive financial support from their corporate owners. Newspaper moguls like Hearst often only kept their media empire to further their own interests. But successful media outlets were the ones that the local media consumers knew & trusted.

Starting in the '60s & 70's, that began to change. Corporate media lobbyists fought to "relax" those rules, with the support of the Reagan Administration, and the final nails in the coffin of local media ownership were driven in by Clinton (the best Republican President we've ever had) with the Telecom Act of 1998.

Today, Americans have access to four TV stations, four newspapers and about 10 radio stations. They just have different labels to make them appear to be different.

[Political Heretic]

102. Friend propaganda and thought control have been around since the country was founded

The idea that somehow it all suddenly started in the 70s is extremely short sighted.

[Warren Stupidity]

107. Mas media has only been around since the 20s

and didn't become a mature political tool until the 50's and 60's. The mass production of manufactured opinion is a relatively new phenomena. It most certainly has not been around since the 1700s.

[Political Heretic]

138. Mass media is a new tool for a very old practice.

It is not, the practice itself.

[Warren Stupidity]

208. quantitatively and qualitatively different

if you do not see that we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Enthusiast]

175. I can't agree.

The print media was a haven for independent thought at one time. It has only recently been completely co-opted.

[Political Heretic]

202. Look I don't disagree with that.

Let's be clear - there's no question that we once had a free press and that now the bulk of media is co-opted by interests who desire to maintain the basic political and economic structures that benefit them at our expense.

This is true. It is a new and daunting challenge.

But before we throw in the towel, it is important to remember that there has actually been a lot of propaganda pushed on to the people by powers that be from the very beginning. I was just reading some history the other day, and I was amazed to learn about how much of the free press was used by government to saturate cities and townships with what I would call propaganda.

Again, yes it is true that new didn't travel very fast, and yes it is true that there were far more independent sources and publications of free thought across the entire political spectrum. But the attempts of the powers that be to control the thoughts of the public has always been with us. And so far, every time the mediums or mechanisms change, there have still been periods of time when the people have risen above it.

One can believe that this time it will be different. But I am unconvinced. I believe that the potential power of people is so great that it can overcome even the most comprehensive media manipulation.

Don't forget popular revolts in countries where the media propaganda was 100% - free press of any sort, however small, did not even exist. Yet revolt still came.

I think the biggest problem is complacency. I don't think things have gotten bad enough yet to create the conditions ripe for serious popular action. Propaganda and the co-opting of media exacerbate that situation, so that it takes more to shake people out of slumber. But we're going to get to that point, if for no other reason than that the political and economic situation is simply unsustainable, no matter how much propaganda is delivered.

In the past, I have definitely given the same pessimistic outlook about popular revolution due to the near total stranglehold of the ruling class over information. But I believe it is the unsustainability of this system that will ultimately provide the climate for revolt.

People are not going to take to the streets en masse with unemployment at 9.7% and the majority of Americans still clinging to all our creaturely comforts and illusions of security. But when it costs 500 dollars to buy a loaf of bread post-inflation and unemployment is at 30% and our major economic institutions have imploded under the weight of their own excess - when we see hoovervilles once again and people dying on street corners - people will trump propaganda.

Don't think that I say anything above with excitement. I'm not excited about misery. But I believe greater misery to be unavoidable and unfortunately a prerequisite for any real structural transformation.

(Side note: this is also why I'm not moved by people who try to threaten leftists or progressives who criticize spineless or corporate capitulating democrats by suggesting that if they don't "support" such terrible candidates that then someone "even worse" will take their place. (Not saying all Democratic candidates are terrible, I'm referring to the ones that are.)

The harsh reality is that, if we ever want to have any hope at a more just and equitable society, things may have to get worse. Not voting for people who do not represent your convictions is no more harmful than voting for weak democrats that completely endorse this broken political and economic system. Other "worse" people may slip into power as people stop supporting the lesser of two evils. But those worse people will only hasten us toward a place where a true people's movement may be possible.)

[Enthusiast]

206. I understand what you are saying.

What you say has merit. We might get to where a true people's movement is possible very soon if things continue the way they are.

[Political Heretic]

222. I don't know about very soon, but one can only hope.

[Warren Stupidity]

209. "People are not going to take to the streets en masse "

we don't even live in cities anymore, where when we did 'taking to the streets' was a substantial threat to the established order. Instead we are dispersed to the suburbs, where in addition to being marginally more survivable in the event of a nuclear attack, we are isolated and more easily controlled and cannot form a mob of more than a few dozen at any time.

[Political Heretic]

221. The Civil Rights Movement started in rual, southern, states with isolated communities

Honestly, its starting to sound like people grasping at straws trying to invent reasons why somehow this particular point in history is somehow so different that it will be unlike all the historical precedent.

You don't need to look at just this country, you can look at the world. And you will find examples of places with more propaganda that we have (100% tyrannically state controlled media) or places with sparse and scattered population centers or places with less education (that argument hasn't been made here, but the argument goes people are too ignorant to understand what's going on well enough to act) where the people have still come together to resist structural injustice.

The history of humanity is replete with examples of small numbers of committed people becoming large numbers of committed people and changing the course of their own fate.

I promise you:
No one is suggesting it is guaranteed to happen - it may not.
No one is suggesting it will be easy - it certainly won't be.
No one is suggesting that it will happen tomorrow - it won't.

But the notion that has somehow become "impossible" is simply contradictory to the course of history.

"Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

[Usrename]

225. That was then and this is now.

Whole new branches of mathematics have been discovered that didn't even exist back when the Civil Rights Act was passed. Computers didn't exist. No one had ever written a doctoral thesis on social networks. Now there are hundreds each year. Poll taxes have been replaced with vapor voting. The ability to organize a union has been destroyed in most states.

I don't think you see things clearly sometimes, you might need to look around at the world anew.

[Political Heretic]

227. I think you need to read the rest of the post.

Honestly, its starting to sound like people grasping at straws trying to invent reasons why somehow this particular point in history is somehow so different that it will be unlike all the historical precedent.

You don't need to look at just this country, you can look at the world. And you will find examples of places with more propaganda that we have (100% tyrannically state controlled media) or places with sparse and scattered population centers or places with less education (that argument hasn't been made here, but the argument goes people are too ignorant to understand what's going on well enough to act) where the people have still come together to resist structural injustice.

The history of humanity is replete with examples of small numbers of committed people becoming large numbers of committed people and changing the course of their own fate.

I promise you:
No one is suggesting it is guaranteed to happen - it may not.
No one is suggesting it will be easy - it certainly won't be.
No one is suggesting that it will happen tomorrow - it won't.

But the notion that has somehow become "impossible" is simply contradictory to the course of history.

"Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

[Usrename]

239. Like I suggested, maybe you should look around.

Start with this country.

No one has a government that spends more on controlling the masses than we do. Really. If you think otherwise then you are in some seriously delusional state of existence.

New challenges face humanity all the time. Nuclear detente did not exist historically until MY lifetime. That is just a fact, it is not my opinion. The conditions that made it necessary were new at the time.

I have a completely different view of what we are facing. Big Brother is watching.

[Warren Stupidity]

233. actually no it started in large southern cities.

The rural areas were the last to be liberated from the nadir.

[Political Heretic]

244. actually no the movement did not begin with Rosa Parks and Montgomery Alabama

The civil rights movement began roughly around 1896. It was a long, deep, desperate struggle culminating in the relatively short "crisis" period of civil disobedience and direct action of 1955-1968.

People have always faced new challenges and new mechanisms for oppression. Historically the tools of oppression have constantly expanded. And yet with every expansion, instances of successful resistance can be found.

You suggest that suddenly we have entered a new period that changes the trend of all of recorded history. It takes more faith to believe that than anything I am saying.

Perhaps you think that I somehow believe tomorrow, or next month or next year people are just going to spontaneously unite and take direct action or practice civil disobedience and change the political and economic structure of our country of oligarchic and capitalistic to egalitarian and socialistic.

I do not think that.

But no one can say that there is zero potential of future change driven by popular movement. No one. Why? Because the future is unknown. You might say it is unlikely. But absolutely no one can legitimately claim that it is impossible.

What I believe would be required for radical structural change driven by popular movement is this:

1. The general climate would have to be right, and in my opinion that would mean things would have to look much more desperate in the country than they do today.

2. There would need to be a handful of fortuitous inspirational events and/or leaders - like Rosa Parks became the spark and inspiration for the period of direct action, or like King and others became voices for movement and helped to create the hope

The right structural conditions and economic climate combined with some fortuitous circumstances that can create an sense of inspiration and motivation could cause desperate people to take desperate actions. No one can say this is impossible. No one.

Now, if you're somehow worried that I am not pessimistic enough, be not afraid! I can't assure you I am quite pessimistic. For one thing, more desperate conditions in our country, such as a true collapse of our economy do not assure that people will take action and demand a better more equitable alternative from the ashes of this failure.

It could usher in an era of dictatorship, tyranny, unfettered corporate fascism enforced at military gunpoint, etc. We could devolve into something feudalistic with a small group of hyper-wealthy rules and a sea of peasants with no middle class.

We might never see the right set of fortuitous events that serve to inspire mobilization.

Economic collapse might lead to wars like we have never seen, wars against us waged in the open by other states, which could lead god only knows where...

There's no guarantee that we will ever see a popular movement against this structural injustice.

There is also no guarantee that we won't, and a lot of history of people overcoming every new "control mechanism" thrown there way.

Maybe this time will be different, maybe it won't. To say anything else is simply talking out of one's ass.

(EDIT - small changes so as to not mischaracterize your position)

[Enthusiast]

174. This the the key issue.

"One-sided propaganda delivery system"

[SteveM]

186. The Teabaggers should invite him. I'd like to see what happens. nt

[OHdem10]

10. As usual Noam nails it.

[Cleita]

15. Thom Hartmann has been saying something similar and even

has had a few of them airing their grievances on his show. I've got to admit that some of them sound really sincere. They just aren't informed enough to see what is being done to them. Of course then there are the nut jobs that are fueling the movement with help from Faux News. They don't count.

[David Zephyr]

55. I was going to point this out when I read the piece, but you already did.

Thom has been talking about this for quite a while. The problem with trying this is the underlying racism, xenophobia, homophobia, religious fanaticism, and militarism in this crowd. It's a soup of sickness.

[Cleita]

71. What you just said is why hate peddlers, like Rush Limbaugh, are so successful.

They tap into that discontent that their following have with the status quo by appealing to their bigotry to give them a group of people to blame so they don't blame the real culprits. If we recognize where this is coming from and maybe try to change that bigotry in at least some of them, people like Rush, Sean, Billo and Glenn Beck would find that they have fewer and fewer listeners. Also, you forgot sexism. There's a reason FOX News dresses their female nooz reporters like hookers and has them sitting around coffee tables in short skirts with their legs crossed. I really think what Thom said about finding something in common with the tea partyers, for instance being out of work, that you can agree on and then building from there could start changing things around.

I had two cousins. I'm the only one alive now, but my female cousin had a gay son. Our other male cousin was a homophobe so we had to convince him not to hate our second cousin. With some beer and a few conversations over time, it turns out he was a homophobe only because he had been taught to be one especially in Church. He realized he couldn't hate this family member and more than he could hate me for being half Latina although he had been raised with prejudices there too. The first generation were estranged from each other for these reasons, for one my dad for marrying a Latina woman. His sister couldn't accept that and it was her son that was the homophobe, no doubt taught in his family as well. We cousins were able to accept each other and the third generation is mostly without bigotry and religion as well. Of course they all live in San Francisco, which helps too. We are a family where the boys go into the military so there is that, however, since most military today are underclasses, I think that will change.

I'm just giving you a little personal anecdote of how we were able to defeat bigotry in our family at least in the second generation. Some of the older ones couldn't be changed but they are all dead now. I believe it's worth a try.

[David Zephyr]

245. +1

Please keep posting.

[inna]

18. What did Arianna say? I missed that.

KR for Noam, as always.

[TomClash]

24. Except . . . .

. . . they don't want to be organized by us. They won't listen to "some atheist pointy-headed intellectual from MIT who sounds like a commie and wants to take away my gun and give away my hard earned tax dollars to undeserving minorities and loves the illegals who take my job because they work for less and, while we're at it, the people who support him with foundation money are Jews on Wall Street who started all this economic mess."

How do you compete with that? What "self-criticism" convinces them to join our side?

[EFerrari]

62. They are immune to enlightened self-interest, I agree.

Betweeen 20 and 30% of the population would rather slit their own throats than give up their bigotry.

The teabaggers draw heavily on these sociopaths.

[Jackpine Radical]

215. I don't think they're psychopaths.

They're sincere idiots who are being manipulated by the psychopaths.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. But they might listen to a Joe Bageant or some other person with working class roots

I agree--we can't go in talking like MIT professors or yuppies. But there are radical working class people, and they should be encouraged.

[TomClash]

165. I agree but

many of their views on race, tolerance and war do not echo our views. That is hard to reconcile. I'm all for trying to peel some teabaggers away with a class appeal but it's tough sledding. Try it and you'll see what I mean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

196. I've observed over the years that racists are usually unhappy, angry people in general

Approach them through the economic angle. Make their lives easier and more secure. Then the need for scapegoating will fade away.

[TomClash]

207. I would love for this to work

But it rarely moves many votes.

I hope you're right in the future and I'm wrong. I'd love to see a focus on class, instead of gender, sexual preference, race and assorted other distractions, like Sarah Palin's body.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

251. That's been the Dems' biggest mistake

NOT focusing on class issues.

Where were they when Reagan went after the unions?

Where were they when high interest rates and low crop/livestock prices were forcing family farms into bankruptcy?

Then they aided and abetted the export of American jobs, because they listened to the yuppies.

[raccoon]

261. +1. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

26. they go for easy "understanding"... which is why $$$$$ went for media ownership

ages ago. and, they understand the power of the sound bite to direct masses of people lacking critical thinking skills.

if we had some hugely monied friends in high places, we too could own some mass media markets....

Next, we'd have to distill our understandings of complex realities into easily understood chunks of information, to be coordinated and broadcast repeatedly, including for example, the President's excellent debunking of the GOP liars. Right now, GOP interests own all the channels that reach the most people, so they dictate the repeated broadcasting that reaches "the populace" (for lack of a better word)-- therefore, regular folk see and hear very little of such clarity.

That is how the rw spin agents started many decades ago. My viewpoint is, if we don't get some control over large media networks, and understand that people need basic factual information on a Critical Thinking 101 level, we will never get large numbers to understand their own best interests.

[MisterP]

27. while we certainly ought to be attracting them, it should be through educating them,

not by agreeing with them!

for a few decades the conservadems have argued that we should pander to every freepy issue, and never contradict conservative voters: consequently, we get a passel of conervadems that then deregulate the banks and strip worker and housing protections (and are now going after public schools, Social Security, Medicare), and enact appalling "HCR"--all of which produce more Teabaggers

libs oppose con policies of war, guns in the nursing homes, GMOs on every table, billions for psychotic states, deregulation, and privatization because they're bad policies, no matter which party enacts them

therefore, it would only exacerbate the problems of America to attract Teabaggers by adopting their policies and doing things on their terms: libs (and LIBS, not centrists) have to point out to them that it's deregulation, libertarian s@*#headedness, and misdirected paranoia that are causing their problems

and to do that, we need a Fairness Doctrine (and not agree with Rush that it's a horrible, unconstitutional, outdated idea, as many Dems did)

[ooglymoogly]

115. You are on key there as far as the money and power on the right is concerned.

But looking at it from the folks they hold enthralled; As far as reality and its ramifications are concerned, government is complicated, the world is complicated; Life itself is complicated.They do not get it. They are longing to hear something simple that will understand and ease the pain of their every day stress. The folks who "educate" them are Strip mall preachers and those who rise to mega churches; Who know a good thing when they see one. It is the gullibility (in all things within their concept of religion) of these folks that is their gold mine and the source of their power and they will fight tooth and nail to keep those minds enslaved and tithing and voting. Translation of their mantra of "give your soul to "Jeeesussuu" and let him guide your every action is no more than brainwashing to begin the tithe and untold riches; Uhum, "Jesus" would be the preachers who have usurped the money tree of "Jesus" without apparently knowing anything about our understanding of his teachings coming down to us through history; And therein is the conundrum; Try though we might, we would be hard pressed to wean these folks away from this crutch, this perceived easy fix. Because "God works in mysterious ways", no amount of failure or heartache therefrom, of their actions will convince them that it is their (taught) vicious perception of Jesus and god that is ending them in a trailer park of losers. The fact that "Jeeeesussuu" is the biggest and most easily shaken money tree in history is a hard Armageddon of brainwashed zombies to educate into reality. I do not see bringing these folks to the alter of reality and away from their fatal crutch; Their fierce attachment to a false prophet religion, as a very prescient plan. O has the megaphone and perhaps could make some inroads amongst the less brainwashed, but I don't see that happening; though Perhaps that is where Noam is coming from. There is nothing that education will not make workable.

[robdogbucky]

29. I lean toward Scheming Daemon's POV

in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7650303&mesg_id=7650303

I trust Scheming Daemon would not object to my cross-posting of his writing on this subject.

Wherein he lays it out thus:

"...There is no massive or growing "Tea Party" movement. It is a sham. It's the same freepers that were giving Bush 30% approval ratings at the end of his term.

It's the GOP base. It's not a "new" movement of independents. It's just Republicans SAYING they're independent.

Teabaggers aren't swing voters. They're not "former Obama voters". These are the people who will NEVER vote Democratic... ever.

Remember the "Brooks Brothers riots" in Florida following the 2000 election? Same thing. Fake grass roots.

Otherwise known as astroturfing..."


Sorry again, Noam, you are brilliant, but as I did on your viewpoint of the scope and impact anti-war movement of the 60s, I disagree with your take on the Teabaggers.



Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky

[Cosmocat]

48. We have a winner ...

SPOT ON post ...

[Enthusiast]

179. Agreed.

This is something that is lost on everyone. Of course that is the objective. The "Teabaggers" are a minuscule part of the electorate.

[Peace Patriot]

90. Of all the opinions here, this is the one I most agree with. It's a bogus 'movement.'

For one thing, would we even know about if it did not serve corpo-fascist interests? It would get no news coverage. It would be marginalized, black-holed, ignored--like the anti-Iraq War movement, like the election reform movement. In other words, the corpo-fascist press would never promote a genuine peoples' movement. They would only promote what they know to be a fake one.

I have no doubt that there are SOME sincere if uninformed or rightwing people attached to the "tea baggers"--like there are sincere Christians, sincere anti-abortionists, sincere anti-gay marriage people. In fact, I heard some of these identical comments with regard to the Christian right during the Bush Junta. We should be "outreaching" to them, blah, blah, blah. We missed the point then, and we are missing the point now--and I think Chomsky is missing the point, which surprises me, because, he is, after all, the author of "Manufacturing Consent."

The point is that these rightwing 'movements' are USED, if not manufactured; they represent only a few people and the corpo-fascist media gives them a big trumpet way out proportion to their numbers.

Chomsky is right that the Democratic Party should be reaching out to, and organizing, shafted workers and small business people and so on--people who don't have a clue who they have been shafted by or how, but he is wrong that we should be organizing "tea baggers." It is a manufactured "movement." That is one of the reasons that it so bigoted and irrational. It is the corpo-fascist organization and promotion of the stupidest people in the country--a tiny minority. They are not even representative of "the 30%." They are maybe 2%, and, as such, the coverage they get is WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion to their numbers.

Chomsky comes closer to the truth with his comment that the "tea baggers" have an odor of nazism. The Nazis were also operating in a blasted economic environment--worse than ours now, but ours is still bad and could get worse--and worked upon the discontent of a certain element of society that had been used to prosperity and were willing to believe that Germans are a superior race and deserved better. But that is not all that the Nazis were doing. They were stuffing ballot boxes. They were beating up voters and leftist activists. They were exacerbating the divisions among the center-left parties and making it impossible for the center-left to govern. They were taking every opportunity, and exploiting every weakness, to destroy liberal democratic government. And they were master media propagandists.

The parallels to Germany are not exact, and there are significant inherent differences between the U.S. and Germany and between then and now. Where I see a similarity is in the organized conspiracy to sabotage and overthrow democratic government through election fraud, media manipulation, false narratives, illusion and delusion creation and capitalizing on hard times--in our case, induced hard times--as well as a possible set up for civil disorder and fascist crackdown. I think the purposes are the same--rule by the fascist few--but the methods have grown much more sophisticated and the conspirators are very hard to see, in our case--unlike the Nazis, who were quite visible in most of their early activities (but not all--the Reichstag fire was probably their doing, in their strategy of creating mayhem and blaming it on the "communists," and they were probably engaged in secret "divide and conquer" tactics against the center-left government).

I can name one suspected conspirator. His name is Howard Ahmanson, the reclusive far rightwing billionaire who is the initial funder and major investor in ES&S, the electronic voting machine corporation that just bought out Diebold (aka, 'Premier') and now has a 70% monopoly of voting machines in the U.S. These voting machines are run on 'TRADE SECRET,' proprietary code, owned and controlled by ES&S, with virtually no audit/recount controls. Half the states in the union have no paper trail whatsoever and so the totals that the machines produce are not verifiable. The rest may have a paper trail but they only count 1% of the ballots against machine totals--a totally inadequate audit, given a 'TRADE SECRET' code system (the public is not permitted to review the code by which their votes are tabulated). Howard Ahmanson also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalecedon foundation, which touts the death penalty for homosexuals.

THAT'S who is 'counting' most of our votes with 'TRADE SECRET' code. The other voting machine corps also have rightwing/Republican connections but not as extreme as this (that I know of).

These 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines were fast-tracked all over the country during the 2002 to 2004 period, and, frankly, I think that the fascist putsch here--or fascist putsch part one--has already occurred, and that was to keep Bush-Cheney in office amidst revelations of torture and no WMDs found in Iraq--for four more years of hand over fist looting, culminating with the induced financial crisis of Sept 2008. And here, our story and the Nazi story really part ways. The Nazis built up a great manufacturing and war machine from an entirely broken country. The Bushwhacks did not do that and seemed--and continue to seem--more bent on destroying us than on building anything. Indeed, they seem like a positive wrecking crew. Were they/are they trying to re-create the blasted economic conditions that gave rise to Hitler? Is there a second fascist putsch to come--worse than the last?

I really don't know. But I think that any political analysis and proposed strategy that does not place the voting machines--and how they are run and who owns the 'TRADE SECRET' code--as the first subject for discussion and action, is whistling in the dark. It is utterly useless to try to "engage" a fake or even a real rightwing 'movement' when the views of that group--the views of 2% to 30% of the people--can easily--EASILY--override the will of the majority in the polling booth, by fraud.

We have to start, not with some mostly illusory thing that the corpo-fascist media is foisting upon us--the "tea baggers"--but with the very basics of democracy--who is counting our votes and how? It doesn't matter who, among sincere "tea baggers," we might convince. Their votes won't matter either.

So this is one identifiable person that I believe is evil, and whom I think is very likely part of a cabal of rightwing multi-billionaires who are calling the shots. They control the vote counting--with 'TRADE SECRET' code.

Our system is complex and its real rulers tend to hide behind the curtains. Complexities involve, for instance, apparent Democratic Party leadership collusion in the highly riggable voting system. They involve some kind of putsch involving the Supreme Court in 2000 (another rigged election). They involve Roberts and this ruling on corporate campaign money--the other great pollutant of our political system, money--big BIG money. And of course they involve the corpo-fascist media monopolies who act as a "copy and paste" operation for the rulers behind the curtain. Their narrative lines all sound pretty much the same: they hate and revile the same "enemies," promote the same kinds of ideas (getting to be a billionaire is good, everything and everyone else is unimportant), downplay U.S. military violence, up-play lesser, individual crimes, obsess on "celebrities," their lies and disinformation are all along the same lines, they marginalize or blackhole the same stories, and they all utterly, utterly fail to provide the sort of information that the citizens of the U.S. really need to form opinions about things, to speak out and to vote. Their manipulations and failures in these regards are simply staggering. They have completely failed to fulfill the dream of the Founders of a free press and its function in a democracy.

We have not just one overwhelming problem in our political system. We have overwhelming problems everywhere you look. So I think it's wise, in this circumstance, to focus on some of the actual mechanisms of power--such as the voting machines. Until we solve that particular problem, our efforts at reform will be in vain. And remember, this 'TRADE SECRET' code, funded by a man who apparently believes that homosexuals should be executed, controls the choice of candidates in the primaries as well. We need a big citizen movement to get rid of these machines and restore vote counting that everyone can see and understand.

I just want to mention one statistic. Nearly 60% of the American people opposed the Iraq War (Feb '03, all polls). I had to do a special study of opinion polls during that period to find that out. The IMPRESSION we got from the corpo-fascist media was that more or less everybody was goose-stepping to Bush. It was not true. The great majority opposed it. Our will was ignored and defied, and a year later, our true choice of presidents was ignored and defied, to keep that war going and to loot us some more. The Republicans should be in utter disgrace and ruin because of what they have done to our country; yet they are promoted on the corpo-fascist 'news' as if nothing happened, as if the years 2000 to 2008 had vanished. The war criminals still run free, prosperous as ever--with not a peep out of the press about that or anything else important. And they highlight this 2% group that wants to stop health care reform. And now they're even talking about privatizing Social Security again--an idea so extreme and so utterly stupid that it should be laughed out of congress and off TV.

And the hell of it is that we cannot verify the elections of any of these congressional characters who promote these extremist views. We cannot verify ANY election in half the states in this country, and verification in the other half is only theoretical--99% of the actual votes are never counted. We cannot verify Obama's election--though I think he was elected (by a larger margin that we know--somewhere between 5% and 10% larger--they shaved his mandate). This is an intolerable situation, ripe for devious manipulations ('election' of 'Blue Dogs' instead of Pukes) and outright election theft.

Best to look into this--and join an election reform group--than to worry about "tea baggers." The real "tea baggers" have yet to come forward and, when they do, you will know they are the real article because their first issue will be the voting machines.

[snagglepuss]

101. Excellent post. A very informative and worthwhile read.

This really should be a separate thread. :applause:

[Turborama]

223. I agree. Excellent and very informative post that really deserves to be an OP in its own right. n/t

[newspeak]

127. and as the economy goes spiraling down

those who have profited from others woes, will instruct their hate spewing minions to inform their avid listeners who to blame. Blame the different, blame immigrants, blame liberals--but don't blame those who actually obtained mass profits from bamboozling the people. I believe that is their mouthpieces' main priority, redirect the blame, pander to their audiences' prejudices and ignorance, and continually induce fear-FEAR-FEAR.

Isn't that MO similar to Hitler's? Germany was hit hard by the depression, Hindenburg stepped down-Hindenburg apparently wanted to pacify Hitler's rabble rousing brown shirts, thus giving Hitler a position (before he stepped down). Some people believe the German people gave Hitler a majority vote--not true. As one of my professor's stated, there were about fifteen per cent Hitler sociopathic goons against about twenty percent of anti-Hitler activists, and the rest of the German people were somewhat apathetic. Apathetic even when Hitler coldbloodedly murdered his own brown shirts. When we're talking about the fifteen per centers, we're also talking about brutal, murdering bullies. And Hitler stated "that if he didn't have the jews as scapegoats, he would have found another group." Of course, it was more than jews, wasn't it. But, those who you outlaw, you can steal their property-and the Nazis were very good about seizing property.

All the shite Hitler spouted about the superiority of the Aryan race-uber nationalism. And don't think religion didn't play a part--the burning of books, the banning of certain music, the outlawing of gays, the prohibition of abortion, and the propagandizing of the strong family with the dominant husband and the "breed like rabbits" dutiful wife (for the reich).

I don't believe the teabaggers should be easily scoffed-"those who are led to believe absurdities can be influenced to commit atrocities."

[Enthusiast]

188. +10,000

I share your concern on every single issue. Especially the following: "For one thing, would we even know about if it did not serve corpo-fascist interests? It would get no news coverage."

This should be apparent to all but we have had the wool pulled clear down below our belt lines.

[Usrename]

216. voting machines and cointelpro, yes

Social networks, internet disruption & revolution.

Has anyone else here noticed the speed and apparent ease with which the recent uprising in Iran was put down? As far as I know, only about 800 people were arrested during the ten days or so that the public unrest lasted. If true, this is a remarkable few, considering that when the whole thing started all that anyone could talk about was how broad and deep the support for the opposition was. On a national scale more than half the people, from ALL walks of life, were in total support. That huge, vocal majority has been pretty effectively silenced with little more than a whimper. Considering how close I beleive they were to actual democratic reform, it seems as though their movement could have been set back for a generation. It scares me.


The whole idea behind the research and development of computer mapping techniques for social networks, and how this new science is currently being implemented is not being taken seriously enough. We are nothing but chattel without our ability to organize. It is this ability to organize that most of this new technology is directed at.


From my limited personal experience with the Military/Industrial Complex, it is clear that the military is about ten years ahead of what is available to the public sector in just about every area of strategic research. Here are just a couple of examples that I found quite quickly that explain how social networking science is being used. Remember, this information is public, and in no way is it representative of what is classified.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



THESIS

MODELING METHODOLOGIES FOR REPRESENTING
URBAN CULTURAL GEOGRAPHIES IN STABILITY
OPERATIONS

>>>

The overarching objective for this thesis is to investigate effective modeling
methodologies capable of implementing an analytic social theory model suite into a
stand-alone simulation tool. This analytic social theory model suite was designed by the
RUCG project team to capture HBR with respect to a civilian population undergoing
stability operations within an irregular warfare (IW) environment. The various aspects
and complex nature of this environment are extremely difficult to model, and
subsequently, to analyze. The successful construction of a model within a single
simulation tool will provide a capability to explore complex adaptive systems such as
this one.

>>>

An essential aspect of warfare is the battle for the support of the civilian
populace. This model quantifies attitudinal change within a civilian populace due to
actions taken by designated actors, how the population perceives these actions, the innate
attitudes of the subpopulations that the civilian populace is composed of, and the effect of
inter-subpopulation influences.


http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-b...etTRDoc?AD=ADA483623&...


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A Social Network Approach to
Understanding an Insurgency

>>>


Social network analysts start with the simple yet powerful notion
that the primary business of social scientists is to study social structure.
They believe that the most direct way to study a social structure is to analyze
the patterns of ties linking its members. The fundamental difference be-
tween a social network explanation of a process and a non-network explana-
tion is the inclusion of concepts and information on relationships among
units in a study. Network analysis operationalizes structures in terms of net-
work linkages among units. Regularities or patterns in interactions give rise
to structures. The social network perspective views characteristics of the so-
cial units as arising out of structural or relational processes and focuses on
properties of the relational systems. The task is to understand properties of
the social, economic, or political structural environment and how these
structural properties influence observed characteristics and associations re-
lated to the characteristics. Standard social science perspectives usually ig-
nore relational information.

>>>

Social network analysis provides a precise method to define impor-
tant social concepts, a theoretical alternative to the assumption of inde-
pendent social actors, and a framework for testing theories regarding struc-
tured social relationships. Equally relevant is the understanding of a social
network approach to assessing power and its distribution in organizations.
Structural perspectives on power argue that it is derived from each person’s
position in the division of labor and the communication system of the
organization.

>>>

Revolutionary coalitions tend to form around pre-existing national-
ism, populism, or religions capable of aggregating a broad array of social
classes. Such organizations may also offer selective incentives to encourage
participation in various activities, particularly dangerous ones such as guerilla
warfare. It is the ongoing provision of collective and selective goods, not
ideological conversion in the abstract, that plays a principal role in solidifying
social support for insurgents.

While pre-existing ties are the foundation, it is a common interest in
addition to the institutional means to pursue it that serves as the catalysts for
creating a collective identity that allows a group to embrace collective action.
Collective identities draw conceptual boundaries around the genus of
individuals who are similarly affected by specific circumstances. However,
these conceptual maps only apply when pre-existing social ties are in place.
The dual role of these social relations—as a means for assessing the validity
of a collective identity, and as a means for action, or influencing others to
act—accounts for the fact that formal and informal ties act together in the mo-
bilization and unity of effort.


The full functioning of a network depends on how well, and in what
ways, the members are personally known and connected to each other. This is
the classic level of social network analysis, where strong personal ties, often
ones that rest on friendship and bonding experiences, ensure high degrees of
trust and loyalty. To function well, networks may require higher degrees of
interpersonal trust than do other approaches to organization, like hierarchies.
Kinship ties, be they of blood or brotherhood, are a fundamental aspect of
many terrorist, criminal, and gang organizations.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/Parameters/07su...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My experience has been that a lot of people view this whole topic as a bunch of tin-foil-hattery. There are literally hundreds of doctoral theses written on this subject, and still no one really wants to discuss any of it or take it seriously, or examine what impact it may have on political discourse or political activism.

Think about that for a second.


It must be understood that when whoever is watching us listens to our conversations that they are NOT interested at all in WHAT we are saying, they are interested in WHO we are saying it to. They are interested in mapping our social networks, and they are doing this with the intent of deliberately studying methods for disrupting those very social networks that would allow us to organize any valuable political resistance.


I find myself restating a few facts over and over again:

Dr. Mengele was real, he did do those things to people, and much of his “twins” experiments were his way of rooting around to try and answer the old “nurture vs. nature” questions. “Is racism the natural state of things; are we born that way, or is it learned behavior?” They wanted answers to these questions for a reason, so that they could better manipulate the population. Much like us now, they had entire agencies dedicated to manipulating the public. Also, not to make a great deal out of it, but there is an unbroken lineage between domestic supporters of Hitler’s Germany and some of the highest members of leadership in the current American political arena.

Things are much different now than they were in the past. If the Nazis had access to the current type of social mapping technology, together with all the computers necessary to accumulate information on the public they were trying to control (instead of their archaic system of http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/blockleiter.htm">cell and block leaders), then things may have turned out much differently for them. Most people do refuse to look at historical facts. For a long while it was not clear WHO would win that struggle in the end. We tend to look at it all as though good always triumphs over evil, which may be true, eventually. But do we really want to relive the Holocaust (or maybe even worse, the Spanish Inquisition)?

Contrary to conventional wisdom, I believe that the Iranian people are more sophisticated politically than Americans are. IMHO,it’s only natural since every adult there has lived through one revolution where a potentate was cast out. They have experience organizing under extreme conditions, even under pain of death. They are also aware of how social, political and religious ideologies can be utilized to manipulate people, together with rule by force. And yet their popular movement was stymied in less than a fortnight.

I know a lot of people have already seen a certain dynamic that is happening with some online groups. There seem to be noticeable disruptions that keep taking place at certain sites. There is http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/72-iran/5305-web-20-warfare-from-gaza-to-iran">a pretty good article that I think explains just a fraction of the dynamic that folks are sensing. There are two recent events that show a real and obvious progression on this front. The Israeli invasion of Lebanon a few years back, and how they lost control of the narrative there, followed by the assault on Gaza a couple of years later (which was arguably much more horrific) where they did not lose control of the narrative.

But controlling the narrative is only one tiny aspect of the entire concept. The research is designed to ultimately control people, and controlling the propaganda is only relevant in how it relates to that ultimate goal. Historically, most of the dramatic social revolutions that have taken place have been initiated by a tiny fraction of the population. Maybe only two percent of the colonists supported independence from the crown before "Common Sense" was published, but because of existing social networks that treasonous piece of writing was able to capture half of the country (this may be hyperbole, if anyone wants to comment on it).

The scenario that I fear is that they whip these r/w nutcase teabaggers into a frenzy until they start committing more and more brazen acts of violence. Then, when the government has to step in, most of the sheeple will be for it, INCLUDING the left intellectuals who are the ones who are the real targets here, and will all be eventually targeted for detainment under terrorist warrants or some such. I know, it sounds absurd, and it would have been absurd to try such a brazen scheme before this NEW science came on to the scene.

Honestly, I don’t think we stand much of a chance at all, the way things are going here now. We have a Court that is all for fascism (in the classic Mussolini sense) together with a press that is owned by private corporations and a Congress that is both complicit and afraid to get their powder wet. We’re pretty much screwed as far as any real ability to resist goes. Haliburton has the facilities to hold about one-tenth of one percent of the population as things sit right now. If and when they round up the right people, what can be done about it? Who can we call then? Sure, it may not be our Congressperson that gets the boot, it may just be one or two of their aids, the particular people who know how to use the Rolodex properly. The point is that it will be the RIGHT people, the ones who could organize a proper resistance to a fascist coup, regardless of their particular party affiliation or ideology.


Anyhow, if anyone wants to try and talk me down, I’ll definitely try to stop jumping up and down long enough to give a listen.

I’ve thought about trying to find some smart people who can understand this stuff and turning it around to our favor so that we could track the disruptors. The problem is, we don’t really have access to the whole database, although that should be a conscious goal of ours, to gain access to the whole database. It may be the only way to expose the real bad guys since for a generation or more they have all been hiding behind the curtain. It does seem like even rudimentary knowledge and expertise in this area could be useful.

[Warren Stupidity]

108. What this sham did in Mass is capture the independent vote by posturing as independents.

This sham is quite potent.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

260. That makes sense -- and it doesn't invalidate what Chomsky said. -nt

[CanonRay]

30. Except they are too stupid to know who's screwing them

so they're mad at all the wrong people.

[Political Heretic]

31. I've been saying this over and over but no one cares - they just want a group they can hate and mock

and feel superior too.

The main reason liberals love to hate people attracted to the tea party movement is because they get a complete green lihgt to be hateful - something normally not allowed.

It's an opportunity to release their inner Archie Bunker, liberal style! And talk about how idiotic and stupid people are and how much more superior we are than those fools. To laugh at them, mock them and generally have a little circle-jerk feeling smug an superior.

We are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh.

That is absolutely right! But "we" can't do that as long as we're too busy getting ourselves off on our own mocking and ridicule of these people as "beneath" us.

[cali]

46. you're wrong.

and I don't hate them. I hate what they espouse. But if you think you're so pure and righteous why don't you get to work? Start a website or organize tea party folks in your neck of the woods.

[Political Heretic]

74. That's what I do

that's what I do with my life.

[G_j]

57. it's really religion that creates an impenetrable wall

IMO

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

75. Almost all the teabaggers I know are atheists.

And I know a surprising number of self-professed teabaggers. They aren't even white for the most part. Of course, I live in California. I imagine it varies with region.

[krabigirl]

87. really? The ones I know are very, very rabid fundies.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

97. Yeah, but I live in San Francisco

There are no fundies as far as the eye can see. I've run into a lot of teabaggers in several parts of the country. The flavor varies but the one thing they have in common is that they are pissed off with the way government is run and both political parties. Basically people who hate the waste and corruption that infests the current system has but otherwise pretty normal.

Of course, every fringe whackjob has immediately tried to co-opt it. They may outnumber the normal people soon.

[Nay]

200. Huh? The teabaggers here are all white older fundies, and there were NO

teabagger protests when Bush was running up the deficit, screwing their kids with NCLB,etc. That's how I know they aren't sick of the Republicans -- they worship Reagan, and cheered Bush on for 8 years.

As for "hating the waste and corruption" of the system, well, they loved it just fine until January 2009. Sure, there were a few peeps about Bush's $700 billion giveaway to the banks in Nov 2008, but isn't it funny how you don't hear about that anymore, and the pubs have gone back (as if they had ever left) to electing more pubs to office? And now Obama is the boogeyman giving $$$ to the big bad banks and it's all his fault?

Do you honestly think that if there were a picture of Obama HOLDING HANDS AND KISSING an oil sheik that it wouldn't end up on every teabagger website and RW newspaper? And on the front pages of newspapers, for weeks on end? There's a pic of Bush doing that, and I'd bet only a few baggers even know of its existence. THAT'S what everyone means when they talk about the imbalance of news coverage.

[valerief]

142. Bingo. Magic thinking. nt

[snagglepuss]

103. "Liberals get a green light to be hateful." Ouch. That stings but there's more than

an ounce of truth in that:(

[SteveM]

192. Wow! I thought this level of animosity could only be found in the Gungeon. nt

[Political Heretic]

33. I'll say something else: there's something disturbingly classist about the attitudes

among liberals toward people drawn to tea party protests.

[superduperfarleft]

42. +1.

It is undeniable that there is a large number of angry white males in this country who have legitimate economic concerns, even if they blame the wrong people (black people, GLBT people, baby-eatin' commie liruls, hispanics, etc.) Chomsky's analysis, as usual, was spot on, despite the snotty comments from the usual suspects in this thread.

[cali]

49. and I find disturbing that some people are willing and even eager to

brush off blatant hate and racism.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Yep. Michael Moore understood this 15-20 years ago.

In most of appearances on the college lecture circuit, he would take middle class students to task for ignoring/mocking the interests of the working class.

It was interesting to see the audience's mood go from wild support when he was skewering the usual (racists, corporations, Republicans) to silent discomfort and sometimes outright anger when he pointed out, as well educated activists, our own short-sightedness.

[baldguy]

52. You're assuming "stupid, afraid, white & Republican" automatically means "poor".

Who's being "classist"?

[Luminous Animal]

60. Show me where Political Heretic makes that claim.

[baldguy]

63. What do you think "classist" means?

[Luminous Animal]

70. It can also refer to cultural or social class.

Both of which are often linked to economic class but that link is not so clear cut.

[baldguy]

79. Teabaggers aren't protesting the lack of chitlins & collared greens in the national diet.

They're protesting the targeted tax cuts which have which, along with the loans & the bailouts have literally saved the economy from the brink of destruction the GOP created and of which they as mostly middle-class workers have been the primary beneficiaries. They instead support the failed GOP policies which got us into the mess we're in and which are responsible for any economic hardship they may have experienced.

To assume - as Political Heretic does - that liberal criticism of their ill-informed arguments, phony protests & manufactured anger is exclusively based on their respective economic classes is just wrong.

[Luminous Animal]

81. What the hell does collard greens and chitlins have to do it?

And as for what they are protesting? Have you seen on the spot interviews with the protesters? They have an extremely difficult time articulating (and not because they are too stupid to be able to) their issues.

And again, Political Heretic said "classist". She/He did not indicate as to what type of class snobbery she was referring. You jumped to conclusions and continue to base your criticism on those half-baked conclusions.

[baldguy]

93. I guess you have no clue what might constitute a cultural class

or understand that protesting taxes is an economic act.

[EFerrari]

64. You may be attributing to liberals an attitude that is endemic in our culture. n/t

[QC]

65. Preach it!

This has been a problem with the American so-called Left since the 60s, and it is a major reason why the Right has so prospered in that time.

[SteveM]

197. You're onto something. Even though I was anti-war and agreed with...

most of what constituted the "left" during the 60s, I and others within the "movement" were seen as suspect due to our:
Sex (male), race (white), religion (Protestant), culture-accent-tastes-ideals-origins (the SOUTH, goddammit, the SOUTH).


And the stink is still around.

[Juche]

34. Chomsky sees what he wants to see

I don't think that the teabag movement is motivated by economic concerns. Right wing authoritarians tend to fear any change. And now they've convinced themselves that the US is on a new, radical course of action.

I think it is just angry, simple minded people who are threatened by change being whipped up by corporate interests into doing their bidding.

Fear shuts down logical thought. These people aren't logically offended by economics. They are terrified of change/novelty.

[Political Heretic]

73. You see what you want to see

:shrug:

[Juche]

80. Right now I see people idolizing a man who minimized the Cambodian genocide

That is what I see.

[Political Heretic]

104. Right now I see a poster who has read too many Horowitz pieces.

[Warren Stupidity]

110. !

[d_b]

158. pwnt

[fascisthunter]

235. right wing nonsense

that's what you chose to see, based on what you read or heard from the reicht.

[Political Heretic]

258. He's also a holocaust denier, doncha know?

:puke:

[fascisthunter]

259. ya gotta be kiddin' me?

why am I not surprised

[no_hypocrisy]

35. "I'm white, male, and own a gun. I'm owed."

'Nuff said . . . .

[Solly Mack]

37. It's hard to organize people who can be comforted by hate when you won't use hate to appeal

to them.

Yes, they have been shafted....and they do want to blame someone...because it's easier to hate the other and blame the other than it is to admit you've been lied to your entire life....especially when you buy into those lies with every fiber of your being.

Work hard, do what you're told, wave the flag, obey authority & achieve the American Dream...(said version being patriarchal, white, Christian, and prosperous)
White is better
Male is better (the Bible told me so)
Christian is better because it's the one true religion and everyone not Christian is bad.
Poor people are poor because they're lazy etc..
America is the greatest, 'bestest', most awesome nation on earth and can do no wrong

If I believe wholeheartedly in the American Dream and I work hard but still don't get anywhere, and it's not my fault (since I do work so hard - unlike other people) someone must be preventing me from getting what I deserve.If I believe America is the greatest nation on earth then it probably isn't the things that make America great ( in my opinion) that are hurting me - so it has to be those things/people that I think harm America that are preventing me from having the things I deserve. So if it's the fault of the others, I'm off the hook - the politicians & TV personalities I agree with are off the hook ...and it all comes down to those other people causing all the problems.

Now it comes down to - if only we could get rid of the other. Oh, what a wonderful world it would be...I could have my America back. (patriarchal, white, Christian, prosperous)

If it's the fault of others, then it's not my fault - because I did everything I was told to do to have a good life. I'm not like those lazy poor people who are only poor because they are lazy....so if I'm not like them, it can't be my fault if I can't achieve the American Dream. Since America is the greatest nation on earth, it's not our "way of life" that's the problem - it's people who want to change "our way of life" that are the problem. Since I'm a white, male, red-blooded Christian American, it must be those other people - those different from me - that are the problem.


It's hard to reach someone who thinks that way - because they aren't interested in hearing that they've been lied to...it means rethinking everything they've ever been taught to believe...it means a deep-down change in how they think. It's easier to blame others.

Rush doesn't demand that they think. Hannity doesn't demand they think. Beck doesn't. Tancredo doesn't. Palin doesn't. They all tell them what they want to hear - that America's the greatest and it's those other people that are to blame.

If you think America is the greatest then there's no room for improvement...so any idea for improvement becomes an attack. If that idea comes from someone you blame for all your problems, then the idea becomes downright un-American. Even if all you're trying to do is to get America to live up to its promises ( equality, liberty, justice) - it is still seen as an attack because America is already the greatest...so I must hate America.

It's been said that you can persuade more people by appealing to prejudice/emotion than you can with reason...and we see the evidence of that with the tea party "movement"

The thing is, from a young age, Americans are appealed to through prejudice...an almost nationalistic view of America is instilled early on in the educational process. A lot of people inform themselves further and learn the facts behind the hype - many don't. They get the flag-waving, America can do no wrong, we're the greatest and that's that..and that's all they get. So anything, absolutely anything, that might tarnish that image of America that they cherish is to be attacked at every turn.


Someone told them a long time ago that white Christian men founded America and it was white men who fought for America and it was white business that grew America - telling them anything else goes against everything they believe in - and you attack everything they believe in when you try and correct their preferred narrative. Because in their narrative - it isn't their fault for listening to corrupt personalities/politicians...because those people aren't corrupt(to their thinking). They believe that Rush, Tancredo & Palin share their beliefs...so their thinking is: if they share my beliefs, and I'm not a bad person, how can they be a bad person? If it's not my fault, then it's not their fault....because we share the same beliefs...and look, they worked hard and became famous...so they know what I'm talking about...because they know it's the other people causing my problems.

It's really a self-feeding cycle of hate & ignorance.

I could tell a tea bagger that they are indeed being shafted - that they do have legitimate problems/concerns (lack of jobs, poor wages, etc..) that we all share....but it is the hate and ignorance they use to express themselves with that drowns out all of that. But they don't want to hear that....because when I tell them that - even with fact-based polite words, I just get dismissed as the other (who is out to get them, take over America, spread atheism and communism, and take away their guns)

So how do you get through all that misinformation and ignorance without them getting offended and going on the defensive? Once on the defensive, they won't listen. I'm not entirely convinced they want to listen either.


K&R, btw.

[GliderGuider]

204. +100

Even though I'm not American I think you've touched some very important truths here.
Thank you, Solly Mack. :thumbsup:

[Solly Mack]

242. Thank you, GliderGuider

I was rambling mostly - trying to work it out in my head. :)

[ChiciB1]

234. All Factual Truth To Me Solly, BUT What Do We Do To Counter This?

I see it getting bigger & bigger! I can barely turn on ANY news these days WITHOUT hearing about Sarah Palin, so I just shut it down!

I'm fortunate enough to still have my DISH, so I switch to "simplicity" these days! I ALWAYS watched ALTERNATE NEWS, but no longer go there either because what THEY are saying isn't getting heard! Those of us who watch/listen to alternative simply get more frustrated because it makes us crazy that we AREN'T being heard!

Chomsky IS alternative, Amy Goodman and others that we know by name, but do we HEAR about them day in and day out?? Obviously NOT!

[Solly Mack]

241. I honestly don't know, ChiciB1.

People have individual success one on one over a period of time, where they talk with family, neighbors, and co-workers. Then minds start to change. Yet as great as that is, it isn't big enough - and America really does need a sea change in its thinking.



As old and as tiring as it sounds, going local is a big part of it - local school boards and local government. It's the long term route - but we have to think both long and short term. (and how frustrating that is!)

Course, there seems to be a lot of forces working against getting accurate and factual information out - and that is very frustrating...like you stated. It sometimes seems pointless to even try.

I've met and talked with people who had no frame of reference for believing what they believed so it's back to square one just to talk to them about what is going on...

When you're talking with people who believe fascism is a left wing ideology, it's going to take a whole lot of relearning to even bring that person into the year 2010.

I do know we have to get beyond their fear first to get to anything else....but fear is something people will cling to for dear life. Their fear closes their minds and can make them very dangerous. How do you relate to a person whose fear has taken over all areas of their life? How do you reason with someone who is in a constant state of fight or flight(so to speak)? (physically attack you over a difference or run/withdraw from the facts)

I don't have the answers to that...

[ChiciB1]

247. I'm No Youngster & Have Seen A Lot Since the 70's, But I Don't Really Think

I've seen "this stuff" here in America. I recall the upheaval from back then, and many groups became violent at times, but what I'm seeing today looks more like Civil War than what was going on then.

Their were groups like the Black Panthers, SLA and the like who were into much more violence, but for the most part we protested Viet Nam and the lies that we were told. In time we KNEW we made a difference and we knew our voices were heard, at least in some fashion. But today I don't see our voices being heard at all. We had a whole network of activists, singers, songwriters, professors etc., who joined us and helped us along the way. Now, regardless of how many phone calls, how many petitions, how many letters or ANYTHING, we are being ignored, and it seems IGNORED ON PURPOSE!

And yes, FEAR is a driving force, and THEY are full of fear, but I too am fearful that THEIR movement is gathering all the moss. I also know that America has gone through many upheavals, but this has a global element to it and I'm feeling more vulnerable to those outside forces. We, here in America are losing so much of what made us great. There are days when I see some new idea and think WOW, now there's something that could be of great benefit, then I see it shot down.

Obviously I wasn't around during the time of the Robber Barons and I know that people rose up against them and we became much greater for it. Now, we have millions more people, but only a FEW at the top and still we can't STOP the carnage!

If I could, I would start at the local level, but I've been around so many here who have made very determined forays into any change, only to see them fall. I've been out there trying to help, but this place has been RED forever. If a Democrat were EVER to make ANY headway it wouldn't be for long. The last great HOPE here was Christine Jennings and even she wasn't a TRUE Democrat! She fought back hard, but lost even worse in her 2nd election. Rahm had a hand in her first run and then he dropped her like a hot potato. A good showing of real Democrats might consist of perhaps 50 at a time. Most are VERY conservative and I just don't fit in. I've tried, but they think I'm out in left field or something. I am a liberal and I don't "want it all" but I do strongly believe in standing up for what's correct. Too many just won't fight back.

Anyway, I realize what so many of us here are saying, we just don't seem to be able to get very far. I'm intelligent enough to know you can't go back, but I surely don't want to GO DOWN!

I WORRY... or is it FEAR? Time will tell!

:shrug: :hug:

[raccoon]

262. Great post. nt

[Downtown Hound]

38. Hey Noam, why don't you go down and try and organize them?

Oh yeah, because they're fucking nuts and won't listen to a thing you have to say.

[G_j]

39. it is in the interest of the fascists to promote religious intolerance, racism

homophobia, etc. because it divides the people.

[me b zola]

40. This is a point of disagreement in our home

I don't think that you can reason with teabaggers, Mr Z thinks you can. This thread has sparked another heated debate in our home.

[Luminous Animal]

43. Chomsky is absolutely correct.

I've made a similar argument several times. People are more frightened than stupid but most are operating in an informational vacuum.

[cali]

50. then prove it. go out and do it.

[Luminous Animal]

54. I have and it works.

As an activist, my area of expertise was coalition work with individuals & groups that, on the surface, seemed to go in different directions.

I'd continue to do it if I weren't working 70-75 hours a week in a desperate bid to retain my job.

[David Zephyr]

56. K&R.

.

[Flaneur]

58. I call it "curdled populism" and I think Chomsky is on the right track.

There are lots of people out there feeling screwed by the system--and rightfully so--who hate the corporate handouts, the stagnating wages, and all the rest, but who, in their search for whom to blame, are woefully misguided.

Not all of them are right-wing ideologues, not all of them are anti-semites, not all of them are racists. Some of them may even be amenable to persuasion.

These folks are rightfully pissed off, but for the wrong reasons and at the wrong people. Just calling them names isn't going to change that.

[fascisthunter]

59. He's Right

but it doesn't mean I won't resent a lot of them, especially the bigots.

[leftstreet]

72. He's right: 'We are the ones that ought to be organizing them'

Damn straight

[suede1]

77. k&r!

[tranche]

78. What do we do with them once they're organized. Vote in more Nelsons and Landrieus?

What are we going to do with these people's votes? Chomsky want's to organize them, but for what? These aren't exactly Bernie Sanders or Kucinich type folks here. We'd be organizing them to vote for the same types of shitstains we all rail against here at DU. We've already got a big tent; incorporating a another large subset of screaming older white folks ain't going to help the cause much.

[ChiciB1]

237. Well, Right Now In MY State,,, I'm Looking At A "Movement" That Just Might

vote in someone WORSE than Jebbie Bush!!! Marco Rubio has surpassed "Chollie" and this fact alone is VERY SCARY! I didn't think it could be worse here in Florida, but WHOA NELLIE... just LOOK!!!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

257. There seems to be various strains of influence at work within this movement

Some of which are very powerful and are attempting to use this movement to push the GOP further to the right (I'm thinking Hannity, Beck, etc. when I say that). However, to me, that doesn't change the fact that the actual people on the ground have some legitimate complaints and some common ground can be found with them, so long as we alter the debate. Thus far, we're letting idiots like Beck set the tone, and as long as that's the case, we're not going to get much headway. If we can find ways to change that, though, some amazing work could be done.

[cadmium]

83. Everything he says could have been said about

the George Wallace Independent Party of the 1960's or the No Nothings of the 1800's. They had their Limbaugh equivalent mouthpieces too.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

84. If Chomsky is listening to talk radio

he should be fully aware teabaggers hate, hate, hate Democrats and Liberals.
These are not people that have been apolitical in the past. They are Republicans.
If John McCain had been elected NONE OF THIS would be happening, just as
none of this went on when Bush was dismantling the republic. This is a movement
that originated when Ron Paul was running. After the election it was hijacked by
the sorry losers on the right. Nothing the Left could do would appease them anymore
than the republican congress will be open to bipartisan negotiations.

Add to all this the extreme racist mindset bubbling under the surface. When Chomsky
likens this to early Nazi Germany he must take into account the existing hate and
bigotry towards the Jews that Hitler tapped into.

[krabigirl]

88. exactly

These people were never apolitical, and yes, they hate people on the left.

[DutchLiberal]

92. What's funny is that Obama & Democratic Party are NOT on 'the left'...

They're centre-right corporatists...

[EmeraldCityGrl]

95. They don't make the distinction between the two.

If you have a "D" after your name you're a Liberal.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

132. The yuppie branch of the Democratic party couldn't organize them...

but someone who was really one of them could.

That's why right-wing media had to demonize Michael Moore.

[Luminous Animal]

148. And plenty of "liberals" bought into that demoniztion.

Including plenty of DUers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

198. It's mostly the usual DLC suspects who hate Michael Moore

My impression is that most people support him.

[NNN0LHI]

85. KKK was pretty damn good at organizing too

I don't want to emulate them.

Don

[Political Heretic]

105. You should.

Emulate good organizing tactics that is.

(Though I'd dispute that the KKK was good at organizing)

[amborin]

89. K&R Chomsky validates Jane Hamsher: it's not left vs right but bottom vs top n/t

[mdmc]

94. 1

[Greyhound]

116. +10 As it always has been. n/t

[Political Heretic]

106. This thread is actually excellent for separating wheat from chaff

[NuttyFluffers]

111. Chomsky is again correct. the best way power maintains status quo is usurping populist points.

power does not even have to deliver -- they just have to stir up and harness the agitation.

again, liberals are far too cerebral, they think humans should ONLY be rational beings. this fallacy is perpetually trumped by the FACT we are also EMOTIONAL beings. human psychology would easily show how wrong our thinking is.

we shouldn't be pouting at home going to show everyone our power through abstention. nor should we be belligerent cheerleaders, enforcing "party obedience" over real policy failures. we should be outside harnessing this naturally fomenting popular frustration. but since we're like herding cats, and like to talk more than act, we're going to get absolutely nothing and everything is going to spiral down into implosion...

edit: by the way, i find no reason to "break bread" with these Teabaggers, as i think they are an astroturf grassroots organization. what i think we should do is make sure we are not losing the public discussion to an astroturf org!

[Quantess]

113. I'm not sure that I agree with him fully,

but I recommended this thread because it's interesting.

[Fading Captain]

117. Yep. Anti-establishment rage. The teabaggers have it.

We need it on our side.

But too many of us have decided that we are the establishment.

[Political Heretic]

139. That is EXACTLY correct.

[Sabriel]

119. I pity the fool...

...who pities the fools.

I'm not sure what his goal is here...for us to embrace them in their pitifulness? To adopt one and live with one? To have some over for a dinner party?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

187. I think perhaps his point is that these folks aren't the enemy

In fact, they're potential allies.

[jwirr]

120. They may have real grievances but it is not alright to hate our duly

elected president because he is black. And that is what I hear coming out of their mouths most often. Some things just aren't justified.

[Odin2005]

122. Chomsky is spot-on, as usual.

Most of these people (excluding the core group of Birthers and other lunatics) are folks with valid grievances, but have been manipulated into being angry at the wrong people. As he says, like Nazi Germany.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

126. +1

They're mostly middle class. They live in the same shitty country we do. Deal with layoffs and preexisting conditions and all that crap just the same as we do. They just have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

[Glidescube2]

131. I beg to differ

But I agree with the way Bill Maher described them: Birthers = formerly known as the KKK. I agree with this because seriously, when was the last time a sitting president was asked to prove with natural birth right.

And really if it takes a monumental personal battle to change one bigot, how does Chomsky hope to change millions of them?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

184. But are all they bigots?

I mean, some of the issues they raise are very real and will have to be addressed in some way or another (deficits, immigration, etc.) I'm not sure we can simply dismiss that, call them bigots, and hope these problems go ahead (or that we have all the answers to them).

[ChiciB1]

250. I Believe The T.B.'s Are As You Say & the ONLY Real Movement They See

at this point in time is the one they are glomming onto! If "we" could mount something, I feel we could be AS EFFECTIVE if not more so, but "we" just seem to want to watch and carp about them.

I don't know, I'm as frustrated as they are, I wouldn't join in with them because some are so WEIRD and off the charts, but I do feel that some would follow a strong movement by the left. There isn't one, and I could be wrong, but I DO KNOW people who are just as angry as I am who want SOMETHING to happen! We just don't know HOW to get our voices heard!

[classysassy]

128. They listen to hate radio

and take their orders from the likes of Limbaugh,Beck and other racist talking heads,maybe brainwashing is too strong a term,but look at them and see who they are,mostly poor and lower middle class whites whose parents taught them that the blacks and jews are the reason they are where they are economically and socially,and they say " we are mad as hell and we ain't gonna take it anymore"

[KonaKane]

129. Noam swings, he misses.

He is basically giving them a pass to be ignorant and appease their ignorance and bigotries by "organizing them".

I usually admire Mr. Chomsky but on this one, he has left me with no meat on my plate.

[ekwhite]

133. K&R

This is an excellent interview with Dr. Chomsky. His point is well taken - they are getting shafted by the same corporatist elite that we rail against, and we are letting the Republicans organize them.

[Douglas Carpenter]

134. someone once said,"Anti-Semitism is the fools class struggle"- perhaps the same can be said of the

teabagger movement? In other words, all the anger against the injustices they feel in normal every day life is channeled and misdirected toward specific groups who they are bamboozled into demonizing - rather than recognizing the injustice they should be fighting is actually part of an unjust and unfair system.

Just as the old style anti-semite was bamboozled into believing that the Jews control the economy and the government and are thus profiting off of their suffering - The modern Teabagger has been bamboozled into believing that the "liberal elites"(notice how often Sarah Palin used the word "elite in her speech), the immigrants, the "social deviates and undesirables", the Muslim world, the ethnic and religious minorities and the "liberal media" are all hostile forces working against them.

There was a time in which the Democratic Party and liberal Democrats in general held a near monopoly on working class populism. Some would say that it was George Wallace's independent campaign of 1968 that demonstrated that there is a market for right-wing working class populism. Nixon's southern strategy was also in many ways also a strategy to attract natural Democrats by appealing to resentment against the campus protesters, ethnic minorities and the rapidly changing value system of the 1960's.

The emergence of the religious right in the late 70's and throughout the 80's brought in a whole new group of working class people who might otherwise lean toward liberal/left perspectives on economic matters. No doubt the NRA and the anti-gun control movement has also co-opted a whole lot of working class people who might otherwise be natural Democrats.

So how does the Democratic Party once again become the main channeler of working class populism? There are some problems in achieving that. For one thing most working class people do tend to be somewhat socially conservative and the "Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving" image of many on the left can appear elitist to people who do a lot of their shopping at Walmart, because it is what they can afford. The social liberalism and secularism of the left can appear like something from a very different world to many working class people who frequently tend to be more socially conservative and more religious. In a country where militarism and "fighting for ones country" largely defines patriotic emotions, opposition to militarism and war can seem unpatriotic to people who largely define their patriotism in this manner.

There is not some easy answer to how the left can channel working class frustration. But it is clear that many economic proposals are popular ideas among working class people. If they really did see a party fighting for real universal health care, such as Medicare for all, sweeping real banking reform that promotes intitiatives to restore the small community bank, establishing real concrete measures to make higher education affordable for all, promoting by large scale initiatives measures to increase manufacturing jobs - perhaps in the fields of mass transit and alternative energy and taking other concrete measures to improve their day to day lives, it would be possible, perhaps probable that the Democratic Party could recover much of this lost ground and again be seen as "the Party of the People".

[CoffeeCat]

135. Noam spells it out--These people have an ANSWER.

I really wish people would be more open to this idea, because I also feel that we are witnessing
the beginning of the corporatists/neocons/Fascists making inroads with the general population.

Think about it--these bastards have been swallowing our government--like an anaconda eating a meal--for
the past couple of decade. They've finally amassed power--with a Congress that is bought, paid for and
in their pocket. They've also got legislation that would make it illegal for American citizens to speak
out against the government (Patriot Act). They can also illegally wiretap us, spy on all internet and
phone communications. We can be declared enemy combatants--and with no Habeas Corpus, they don't even
have to produce charges against us. Those who go against the government can be detained indefinitely,
with no charges produced--and we can be tortured.

The web has been spun.

Now, they just need to avoid a revolt. What do they do? They simultaneously objectify and demonize
liberals/progressives as they coalesce a significant percentage of Americans who will do the bidding
for these corporatists/neocon/Fascists. Convince them that Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck and the rest
of them reflect their values--family values, religious values, patriotism, decency, etc--and they all
climb on board. Never mind that these people are being used to justify endless war, the destruction
of the middle class, the rise of elitism, the destruction of our democracy, etc.

Chomsky has got it. Beck and the rest of the right-wing-hate blowhards are giving the tea partiers
AN ANSWER. It doesn't matter that it's a lie or that it makes no sense. They are being told that
the problem is Progressives.

Do you have any idea how much they despise Obama and Progressives? They view us like insects. Have
you actually listened to their speech? Putting us in concentration camps would make their day. We
are evil, horrible people who are out to destroy America. They are being told that God is on their
side and that we are scum of the earth.

It's exactly like Hitler. Hitler gave an answer, even though it was preposterous and disgusting.

Whenever I think, "it couldn't happen here" I listen to talk radio and how Progressives and Democrats
are described--like animals. And I also listen to the fear they instill about Progressives, gay
people and people who are pro choice. The level of hate that is being fostered toward us, is
exactly what Hitler did to the Jews and other groups.

Chomsky is spot on.

Are you on too high of a horse to try to find common ground with the tea partiers? Well, remember
who their masters are, and realize that if we don't try to find common ground and melt all of this
hate--that they could be part of the power structure that causes another horrible dictatorship
to rise in this country and other unspeakable acts to happen.

[Jefferson23]

137. Thank you for such a great thread starter. After reading this, it seems

what Chomsky is suggesting....it couldn't hurt to try approach.

Tea baggers may have started out as a grassroots group with legitimate concerns, the bank bailouts etc., but they also have been
infiltrated by the GOP. Palin represents not only the religious right, but she is a major corporate shill. The tea baggers are addressing
the racist/homophobic's in their group? I keep hearing that these people don't represent the tea baggers, and that may be true, but these people are still involved in their movement.

I think we have all heard about Tancredo speaking at their recent convention, anyone tell him and his followers to leave?

By and large it appears to be a fractured group, how and if it survives, is anyones guess at this point. Imho, the tea baggers could split votes for Republicans and hurt them.

Learning about which percentage of them are more like the gentleman on Thom Hartmann's show the other day vs the Tancredo crowd tea baggers would be interesting to see confirmed.

The overall message Chomsky gives seems to be good advice, if no one speaks the truth to them, there is no chance at all.

[pansypoo53219]

140. this is my point. we need to eductae them. they are right

ALMOST.

[bobbolink]

141. We can play along with the RW, and say that these deep divisions are the only way to go.

And keep repeating history.

When Noam Chomsky and Thom Hartmann are called "delusional", then we know the RW is waaaay ahead.

[zenprole]

145. Game. Set. Fascism.

Some of the replies to this Chomsky snippet are outrageously self-destructive.

Chomsky, of course, is right on. Those who attack his brief, simple assertions need to ask: if there are teabaggers in numbers (as there certainly are), then are they some alternate species of h. sapiens? Of course not. No matter how poorly-informed or misguided in their responses, teabaggers have legitimate grievances and are part of the zero-sum of American politics. Fail to reach them on a handful of serious issues and you'll see them again and again.

If there's a legit attack on the American left (aka those who don't give a rat's about party label or elections, in favor of the long game) it's that it's based in the academy. This, in a nation where 'a good education' (K-12) is a term of mockery. Add in liberals that smugly refuse to accept that their natural allies might be people who lack good grammar, couth, or teeth, and it's a recipe for political disaster.

The civil rights movement used to say "each one teach one." Comedians and bands often note "you gain fans two at a time" (and Al Franken did a fab job debating teabaggers, patiently enduring freshets of idiocy to actually reach a few of them, setting a killer example on YouTube). At this point, the odds are very long that this rush to fascism will be overturned. Those odds aren't improved by DUers disputing the basic arithmetic. Please, please, please get a grip. You may be surprised at the results that can be achieved.

[bobbolink]

255. I fear your attempt at rationality is lost on those who take great joy in

ridiculing a group of people.

Sadly, they don't see how similar they are to those they demean.

But I appreciate your sane effort.

[PBass]

147. Many of you are taking a short-sighted view of this...

Appealing to these folks (and by doing so, educating them on the issues) is not something that is going to happen overnight... it's something that Liberals should have always been trying to do. The fact that we have lost the battle for "hearts and minds" of many of these people ultimately indicates a failure on the part of 'our' side, to effectively sell our message.

Can every "tea bagger" be swayed? Obviously not. For example, some (many?) are racists and will never be receptive to a progressive message. That's not the point though. In the battle of competing messages, we have lost many of these people to the dark side.

[Mithreal]

150. This group is not monolithic.

[Echo In Light]

173. On a personal level I'd like to agree - however I just listed to 15 min of CSPAN's WJ...

... and after hearing each one (and mind you the Dems who call in are equally ignorant re their political/ideological views) spew forth the same pro-Palin/pro-"smaller" govt rhetoric (where were these dupes during Bush/Cheney?!) I'm inclined to think many of them may be too far into the worldview their movement's pundits and snake oil salesmen have sold them on to ever be reached by someone w/more humane ideas.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

183. Maybe, though

I've personally had some luck in reaching such people by discussing the failures of extremely small govt. I mean, this libertarian point of view many Tea Partiers are pushing doesn't hold up very well under scrutiny - after all, it's really more a religion than a blueprint for how to effectively manage a civilization. Once you can get them to admit that, reaching common ground is a bit easier (at least in my experiences).

[Mithreal]

217. People who call in are a special bunch for sure

[technotwit]

151. common ground

i worked as an engineer for a right wing radio station for a while. when doing remote broadcasts, i'd set up equipment, and then hang around in case something broke. Often some right winger would see me and come up and attack me as a commie liberal. i have long hair and a beard. if i talked to them for a while i could work the conversation around to the evils of corporatism. Talk about Enron, the gas companies, banks, insurance companies, etc. And they would follow me into that topic, and often we could find much to agree on. And talk about the dangers of fascism. i found if i was careful not to attack republicans, bush, etc, we could have an interesting discussion, and hopefully i got them thinking about things differently.

[Mithreal]

152. Yes.

:thumbsup:

[cadmium]

238. Maybe you got some empathy on a 1-1 level but I bet

just as often what they did when they left is co-opt your argument and use it to bash liberals. I listened to Glenn Beck radio for several yrs before fashionable and that is what they did-----blame corporations, insurance companies, big media etc with the conclusion that a man like Mitt Romney could deliver us from the corporate oppressors.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

256. I think the key, at that point, is to play on our common distrust of leaders

or those who attempt to co-opt social movements simply to advance their own careers.

[Ed76638]

153. I don't give a goddamn about their grievances.

These fuckers had their turn in power. They're the ones who launched the bullshit invasion of Iraq. They're the ones who went on the drunken spending spree. And these bitches have the nerve to accuse Obama of spending this country into oblivion.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

163. I mean, that's one way of looking at things

but I don't think it's the most productive.

[Ed76638]

194. Productive or not

Thats the way it is, and I'll gladly tell them to their faces whenever I see these teabaggers waving their "Don't tread on me" flags around. Too many people are suffering because of their bullshit.

[nikto]

156. Skip the divisive social issues, and focus on ECONOMICS

The best teabagger folks to talk to would be people in YOUR OWN COMMUNITY.

The only hope is to keep the talk centered around dollars-and-cents issues,
like Healthcare, wages & benefits, college costs, Wall St banks' practices
and other effects of corporate gouging and big-business lobbying.

If they want to talk about illegal immigration, REMIND them that most of the immigrants
traveled thousands of miles NOT ON A WHIM, but because America's businesses, both
large and small WERE ALREADY PREDISPOSED TO HIRING LOW-WAGE IMMIGRANTS OVER US CITIZENS.
Tell them about Walmart bussing in hundreds of undocumented workers to clean their stores all night,
and then bussing them out early in the AM, BEFORE THE CUSTOMERS ARRIVED (all this can be documented via web searches).

Tell them about the Privatization of their schools, the control Healthcare Insurance companies
have established achieved over congress. Explain that the oil companies operate
actually more like CARTELS than legit businesses, and that the price of gas is MANIPULATED.

Remind them that 5 COMPANIES OWN ALL OF MEDIA.

Tell them that MANY DEMOCRATS HAVE SOLD OUT TOTALLY, just like Republicans, so both parties share
responsibility for shafting the American People. That's true, too.

And above all, tell them that THE REAL CONFLICT IN AMERICA AT THIS TIME IS NOT "LEFT VS RIGHT" (which
merely pits working people against each other, artificially)----The REAL CONFLICT is
TOP VERSUS BOTTOM--The age-old conflict that caused the Russian and French revolutions,
as well as the great depression of the 30s.

If they insist in being combative and disagreeable, REACT WITH SADNESS INSTEAD OF ANGER.
Ask them: How can I be your enemy when I have many of the same ECONOMIC problems AS YOU DO!??
Remind them of the worries that keep YOU up at night.
They may share the same worries!

Remind them that Limbaugh and O'Reilly and the other big righty pundits have 100s of million$ of dollars
of their own wealth, and have absolutely NOTHING in common with them economically. But YOU DO.

And finally, assure them, PROMISE them, that in the event of a total economic breakdown, even a
collapse of the dollar (which hurts both YOU and THEM, but HELPS the wealthy Elite),
that YOU, as a fellow member of your community, will BE THERE FOR THEM ON ANY WAY YOU CAN!!

WHY? Because you both have far more in common with each other, than either of you has with rich politicians,
Wall st bankers, wealthy pundits or rich millionaire pastors like Pat Robertson and others.

Regular working people have to stand up for EACH OTHER, or else we have NOTHING.

Challenge them to look you in the eye and SAY TO YOUR FACE. say to your face (if they
really seem to feel that way): That YOU ARE THE ENEMY!!
Some of the more rational ones may take pause at that.
Maybe.


If that doesn't work, then at least leave them with your SADNESS, NOT YOUR ANGER.

Let that be your last impression-SADNESS, & hope for the best.

You could be possibly setting the stage for later on, when things get even worse, for everybody.
They might be more willing to listen then(?)


That's the best thing I can think of.

It won't work with everyone, but may work,
over time, with some.

Otherwise, what hope is there, really?

[moondust]

157. Largely right wing dopes/dupes.

I tend to agree with Chomsky except for the "self-criticism" reaction. I suspect many are people whose insecurities and prejudices Republicans have been exploiting for votes for decades, morons who keep voting Republican against their own interests because their white brothers preach to them about the "socialists" and "gun grabbers" and "immigrants with leprosy." They are now starting to wake up to the fact that they've been exploited but their heads are still full of right wing propaganda so they still blame the "socialists" and "gun grabbers." It's actually pathetic. The left can't organize them because they need deprogramming which they won't get.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

161. I guess I don't think it's our place to "organize" or "deprogram" them

but simply to engage them, throw other ideas out there, and help to advance the dialogue past the pathetic state that it's currently in. And, I mean, what can it hurt?

[moondust]

171. Go for it.

I just have doubts that you'll get very far as long as Fox and right wing radio are continually reinforcing and developing their mindset in the unending exploitation for profits and power. But good luck trying!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

182. 'ppreciate it!

I mean, you do raise a really good point - this is quite an uphill battle we have on our hands. Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, etc. are all over the airwaves pushing this point of view and it's right there, easy for people to access. I'm not sure liberals, or leftists, really have anything that currently counters that - at least not on the same scale. As I see it, though, that's all the more reason to open up dialogue and inject some new ideas into the debate whenever possible. I'll be doing what I can to ensure that happens, feable as it may sound.

[Shining Jack]

159. K&R

[bluestateguy]

160. That's all fine and good

and it's possible in some deep intellectual way that he is right, but the point is much too complicated for these simpletons to understand.

And honestly I am getting kind of tired of having to explain to these yahoos that they are working against their own interests, only to be shouted down and mocked by them.

So I say, to hell with them.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

162. It all depends it's done, IMO

If it's done in some high and mighty way, where we know what's right and are here to enlighten the "simpletons" who make up this movement, it's not going to get too far. No one likes being condescended to, especially by people they consider their political rivals.

[sellitman]

203. People who see in Black & White are Tea Baggers

The left sees things in color.

We see the nuances in life.

Sometimes this makes it seem that we are less focused or less organized.

I'm happy with my 1080P.

I wouldn't go back to black and white for anything in the world.

[RoccoR5955]

205. I think Chomsky is on to something.

WE should be organizing these people, and educating them as to who REALLY put them into the position that they are in. Not the Liberals, but the Conservatives, who REALLY own the banks and the media. Convince them that Rush is one of these people, and they will be on our side.

[spicegal]

210. I totally agree that these people have real grievances, which are fundamentally probably not much

different from my own. Where I part ways is that they are totally delusional when it comes to where they should be placing blame. AND, the fact that they choose Sarah Palin as a leader totally destroys their credibility. I genuinely fear for my country. It has nothing to do with a leftist, socialist agenda or Obama, but rather a very scary fascist, totalitarian, right wing movement that only seems to be gaining momentum in the context of a dysfunctional paralyzed central government. I fear we are witnessing our demise, and are powerless to stop it. Sometimes it requires a huge huge crisis to bring about meaningful change. That is where I fear we're headed. What's happening in this country leaves too much room for demagoguery and fear mongering. That is what Hitler did, and it is precisely what we see coming from the right wingers, including these teabaggers. I believe this will be the lasting legacy of George Bush. His radical policies either triggered or failed to forestall this crisis. America has always been able to correct course, but it requires strong leaders, something we seem to be seriously lacking.

[spicegal]

211. I totally agree that these people have real grievances, which are fundamentally probably not much

different from my own. Where I part ways is that they are totally delusional when it comes to where they should be placing blame. AND, the fact that they choose Sarah Palin as a leader totally destroys their credibility. I genuinely fear for my country. It has nothing to do with a leftist, socialist agenda or Obama, but rather a very scary fascist, totalitarian, right wing movement that only seems to be gaining momentum in the context of a dysfunctional paralyzed central government. I fear we are witnessing our demise, and are powerless to stop it. Sometimes it requires a huge huge crisis to bring about meaningful change. That is where I fear we're headed. What's happening in this country leaves too much room for demagoguery and fear mongering. That is what Hitler did, and it is precisely what we see coming from the right wingers, including these teabaggers. I believe this will be the lasting legacy of George Bush. His radical policies either triggered or failed to forestall this crisis. America has always been able to correct course, but it requires strong leaders, something we seem to be seriously lacking. 


[ShamelessHussy]

213. of course you won't get all of them, BUT, he is exactly right, we used to be the ones who appealed

to the working men and women of this country, but no more, because we have sold out to the 'third way' aka the corporations, and many on our side do not believe our leaders BS anymore either.

Obama had an excellent opportunity to make change, and still has, however if folks continue to see all the aid givin to banks and big biz, with no strings attached, and next to nothing for the people, I predict that Palin, or someone worse, will come into office.

Why do you think they love that line, how's that change and hope, working out for you' because they know it resonates with folks, left and right... now if the people were to see real change they could never use that line.

[azygous]

214. One way to reach these folks

would be to appeal to the very same character and personality flaws that the GOP is using to manipulate them - their meaness of spirit and selfishness.

We need only find a way to identify the real enemy for them, such as appealing to them to turn on the corporate elites who have their figurative foot on their necks, depriving them of freedom, a living wage, and dignity. In my mind, it's not rocket surgery.

[laughingliberal]

218. But we won't listen. We're just going to keep on with (R) lite policies and let the right co-opt the

anger of the masses.

[Goldstein1984]

219. Chomsky sees clearly

The Left isn't the only segment of U.S. society being betrayed by a corrupt government composed of third-rate leaders obsessed with power and the acquisition of more of it. They are a part of the Many that have lost their government to the Few.

Yes, many of them have racist ideas, and they believe in a utopian past the way Liberals believe in an equally unrealistic utopian future. But I think their hate for progressives is driven by the same thing that drives progressive hate for the tea part group--fear.

And now, Chomsky joins the ranks of others who have dared to challenge a simplistic narrative that offers no solutions to reveal a more complicated reality that might be affected with action.

If you can't listen to Chomsky, listen to the words of words of wisdom from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away:

"Fear leads to anger;
Anger leads to hate;
Hate leads to suffering;
Suffering leads to the Dark Side."
~Master Yoda

This thread was poisoned from the outset, so it's probably too late.

[DissedByBush]

224. I was thinking of joining

When I heard some people were protesting about the big government giveaway to corporations, TARP, and racking up our debt.

At least they have two grievances I seriously agree with.

Then I found out it's more than that.

I'm not joining nut cases.

[invictus]

226. K&R

[NutmegYankee]

228. Nailed it!

[ShortnFiery]

231. Exactly, if we don't organize WITH the working class poor who are deluded into right wing thinking

and change them, they'll be coming to get US to take to internment camps in the future.

LIBERALS will be the scapegoat and not just RICH ones.

WE. MUST. ORGANIZE.

[fascisthunter]

236. .

[Odin2005]

254. A-FUCKING-MEN!!!

[newspeak]

249. I believe we are intentionally being divided

I remember Chaffee's interview when he said basically that before Cheney took the oath, that they held a meeting with most repug congresscritters-they apparently were told that there would be no negotiating with the other side, that the repugs would listen to the administration. Of course before *, with the on air knuckledraggers given even more time and access, they have had quite awhile to shape their audience.

There was an interview with Barry Goldwater years ago (retired from the senate) and I remember that he was fondly reminiscing on how he and JFK went on the campaign trail together. Yes, they were ideological apart, but enjoyed each others repartee. Goldwater genuinely had fond memories of JFK, and was concerned about the political dirty tricks at the time of the interview.

I think we are purposely being divided for a reason. Over hundred years ago the progressive populist party had influence, because people noted that both parties were in bed together and not looking after the people's interest. Because of the populist party influence (especially in California and Wisconsin), I think the two parties became a little concerned-so they had to give a little to the people instead of their "friends." The two parties might have learned a lesson from that time--keep the people divided--by dividing them they have no strength, they have no influence. That's why some of MSM has upped the repetitive political and corporate talking points. If they can snare even thirty per cent of the people through lies, fear and ignorance, they've done their job by dividing the people-thus the people become neutralized.

Now some may say I'm wearing a tinfoil hat, but I think when people are persuaded to go against their own interests (labor, health care), when people are championing "bootstrap" philosophy when they're barely getting by, when people can be sold by using fear to give up their own liberties, when people unknowingly may be endorsing a pro-corporate deregulated agenda against their own best interests, when people buy into the scapegoating of other mostly benign groups for their problems--then they have been sold a bill of goods by interests that wish to keep people divided; thus ineffective. Of course, that's my thoughts about the faux tea party creation (not saying people with legitimate concerns aren't involved).

[Odin2005]

253. The Corporatists in both parties have a vested interest in "Our Side Rah Rah" cheerleading.

The thing they fear most is if the populists on all sides came together and kicked their asses. So the Corporatists on our side encourage us to engage in elitist, classist bashing of populists on the other side.