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Our Founders were NOT Fundamentalists-by Harvey Wasserman

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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:36 AM
Original message
Our Founders were NOT Fundamentalists-by Harvey Wasserman
Our Founders were NOT Fundamentalists

by Harvey Wasserman
"God made the idiot for practice, and then He made the school board." --Mark Twain

..................

Today’s fundamentalists would have DESPISED the actual Founders. Franklin’s joyous, amply reciprocated love of women would evoke their limitless rage. Jefferson’s paternities with his slave mistress Sally Hemings, Paine’s attacks on the priesthood, Hamilton’s bastardly philandering, the grassroots scorn for organized religion---all would draw howls of righteous right-wing rage.

Which may be why theocratic fundamentalists are so desperate to sanitize and fictionalize what's real about our history.

God forbid our children should know of American Christians who embraced the Sermon on the Mount and renounced the Book of Revelations…or natives who established democracy on American soil long before they saw the first European…or actual Founders who got drunk, high and laid on their way to writing the Constitution.

Faith-based tyranny is anti-American. So are dishonest textbooks. It’s time to fight them both.

more:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/02/13-2
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. "The Founders were not into diaper sex with hookers." - Sen David Vitter (R)
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 09:41 AM by SpiralHawk
"So NO, they would not have found favor among us gawdly modern republicon fundamentalists. No No No. And NO, they would not have gotten a Standing Ovation from the Republicon MEMbers of the Senate, like me. The Founders clearly did not have our modern Wide-Stance Republicon Family Values.

"On that mOrAl basis, us modern gawdly republicon fundamentalists would simply, um, poo poo them."

- Sen David Vitter (R)
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Founders may not have been fundamentalist whackos
but I don't think I can say the same for the whole American populous, especially out on the frontier. what with those so called "Great Awakenings" that kept popping up.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. The frontier tended to be irreligious
In the next century, surveys of the American West showed that most towns had few or no churches, some schools, and lots of bars and brothels.
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Yeah, there were few churches around
that's why most practiced in there own way at home, allowing for the myriad of differing denominations, mostly baptist i think, to emerge. I'm thinking that's why they took to the Great Awakening Revivals, since they were mobile and didn't require a church building.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Arrival of the Baptists in American Politics Horrified the Founders
Thomas Jefferson was a man of deep religious conviction - his conviction was that religion was a very personal matter, one which the government had no business getting involved in. He was vilified by his political opponents for his role in the passage of the 1786 Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and for his criticism of such biblical truths as the Great Flood and the theological age of the Earth. As president, he discontinued the practice started by his predecessors George Washington and John Adams of proclaiming days of fasting and thanksgiving. He was a staunch believer in the separation of church and state.

Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. A copy of the Danbury letter is available here. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature — as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only of establishment on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

The letter was the subject of intense scrutiny by Jefferson, and he consulted a couple of New England politicians to assure that his words would not offend while still conveying his message: it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion.

Note: The bracketed section in the second paragraph had been blocked off for deletion in the final draft of the letter sent to the Danbury Baptists, though it was not actually deleted in Jefferson's draft of the letter. It is included here for completeness. Reflecting upon his knowledge that the letter was far from a mere personal correspondence, Jefferson deleted the block, he noted in the margin, to avoid offending members of his party in the eastern states.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/baptist.htm

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thank You so much. Tagged to read later. Your post is one reason I love DU so much
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Another Useful Bit
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 09:54 AM by Demeter
The Great Awakening swept the English-speaking world, as religious energy vibrated between England, Wales, Scotland and the American colonies in the 1730s and 1740s. In America, the Awakening signaled the advent of an encompassing evangelicalism--the belief that the essence of religious experience was the "new birth," inspired by the preaching of the Word. It invigorated even as it divided churches. The supporters of the Awakening and its evangelical thrust--Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists--became the largest American Protestant denominations by the first decades of the nineteenth century. Opponents of the Awakening or those split by it--Anglicans, Quakers, and Congregationalists--were left behind.

Another religious movement that was the antithesis of evangelicalism made its appearance in the eighteenth century. Deism, which emphasized morality and rejected the orthodox Christian view of the divinity of Christ, found advocates among upper-class Americans. Conspicuous among them were Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. Deists, never more than "a minority within a minority," were submerged by evangelicalism in the nineteenth century.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel02.html

That's the Library of Congress, in case you are wondering.

And here's a new book that is interesting:

http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14524.html
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. And Here the Baptists Speak for Themselves
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Demeter, you are a DU treasure
:grouphug:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Takes One to Know One!
:blush:
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. That was before the Baptist's incorporated the fundie type dogma into their
religion. Todays Baptists are nothing like the ones Jefferson dealt with, they didn't become extremists until after the Civil war. Damn if I can remember the nit wit that came over from England who started the fundie movement.
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Towlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. "that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions..."
Apparently Thomas Jefferson would have opposed the current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States">hate crime laws.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. At DU, brackets deletes anything within the brackets. You need to replace brackets with
parentheses, to make the bracketed material appear.

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. (Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.) Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

-------------------------------

I've boldfaced the missing (bracketed) section of your post, and also underlined the famous "wall of separation" phrase. I don't see how this text (or anything in the Baptists' original letter) supports your comment subject line that the Founders were "horrified" by the arrival of the Baptists in America. Could you please explain.

I also don't understand the dispute that the Baptists wrote to Jefferson about, nor why his reply was touchy (might offend). They seem to be asking for support in establishing religious freedom as a right not as a privilege granted by the state. Is that not what Jefferson believed? Religious freedom is an inherent human right, and, to protect that right, the state can say nothing about it, either way? But if the state treats religious freedom as a privilege, presumably the state can take that privilege away? --what the Baptists seem to be saying. They also greatly support Jefferson in their letter--they are glad he was elected. I don't get it. How does this correspondence show that the Founders were "horrified" at the Baptists? What am I not understanding here?
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Thanks
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 12:06 PM by Demeter
I've been posting all day, and getting sloppy and tired

I'd say putting Religious Freesom in the Bill of Rights would be a good indication of horror, from a bunch of Deists, towards more coercive and dogmatic forms of religious organizations...
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Not to mention that the fundie type religion wasn't around until after the
Civil war, but hey that is just a tech glitch to the fundie mind. It is amusing how they can over look historic facts to force their beliefs into a historic period where they never existed. Whats even more amusing is these are the same people who proclaim Islam as a false religion because it came about after the Christian religion.

But it never enters their pointy heads that Buddha existed before Christianity so wouldn't that mean Buddhism was the true religion using their logic? Needless to say I have fun twisting the fundies lack of logic or historical fact, maybe thats why no fundies show up in my yard after the first and last encounter I had 2 years ago. Btw never knock on my door while I'm getting my freak on causing me to twist my back trying to get pants on to answer the door, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry LOL.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I don't know
I think it was always there, and latent within their self-complacency, but when Darwin's Evolutionary theory punched big holes in the Biblical literalists, they felt threatened and got politically active.

Smugness substituting for critical thought.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Actually after the Scopes monkey trial the fundies dropped out of sight and went
on a breeding program until they came out of hiding in the late 70's. I remember starting to see fundies in the 1970's with tent revivals and pretty much getting ignored, then out of no where they appeared to back Reagan in 79. Every since then they been very active in politics.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Religious sects were early settlers
and their fundie beliefs allowed killing pagan Indians, and that history is well-documented. Is that conservative enough?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I'm afraid that killing pagan Indians was culture-wide, all of western civilization, not just fundie
Except for the French. William Carlos Williams has a very interesting essay in his book of essays, "In the American Grain," in which he speculates on what America would be like if the French had won it instead of the British. He discusses how the French Jesuits "went native" and even engaged in Indian ceremonies like the Maypole dance, and were much more sympathetic with the 'pagan' Indians than the repressed British, esp. the Puritans, walled up in their compounds against "wild nature" which they found threatening--obsessed as they were with "cleanliness." Unfortunately, the Puritan influence won out. They were a minority--and persecuted--in England, whose people have always had a much more ribald and fun-loving view of life--but they were the majority here, and the founders of the colonies. Their influence on early America was very great; it saturated the culture--and is responsible for some bizarre anomalies in the U.S. that persist to this today--for instance, the corpo-fascist rulers' power over politicians who have mistresses or stray sexually in any way. The Europeans--esp. the French--think we are nuts on this issue, and a lot of Brits do, too. But England has been re-infected with the kind of Puritan hypocrisy that can be used by the behind-the-scenes corporate rulers to control politicians. (We sent the virus back.) It's a corporate ruler thing--not typical of most Brits. Europe pretty much doesn't suffer from this illness.

Anyway, it was the common view--among the British, among early Americans, among the founders of the Republic, and among the Spanish and other Europeans (except for the French)--that slaughtering Indians was not bad because they were not quite human. They were called "savages." They were killed wholesale, their cultures decimated, their lands stolen and many were enslaved, for instance by the Spanish in California and points south. They were a different type of subhuman than the African slaves, but nevertheless subhuman. Very few Europeans or Americans perceived their humanity, their rights or their wisdom. The French Jesuits and the French fur traders (my ancestors on one side--which is how I got a Kickapoo ancestor). Thomas Jefferson seems to have had respect for the Iroquois. There were probably other individuals, but, on the whole, white culture believed that it had a "manifest destiny" to steal from, subdue and, if possible, "civilize" the "savages"--and, if not, wipe them out. It was not just fundie Christians. It was virtually the entire "Christian" world.

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. Recommend
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Some of this does not go back far enough...
The Puritan Church(Congregationalist)was the sole religious source in the Bay Colony from the beginning. They made the decisions, both political and religious, for the Colony. Baptists began to immigrate(try to differentiate between the Puritans and the Pilgrims)and wanted to build their own churches. At the time, all colonists were tithed to support the Puritan church.

A decision was made. The Baptists could build and support their own church but to do so meant that they had to pay the tithe to the Puritan church first, and then contribute more to have their own place of worship. The Puritan Church was one of the most stiff-necked group of religious activists ever seen. That is why they were kicked out of England. England of course had a National Religion that differed greatly from Puritan beliefs and actions.

Much of this is available in a history of the Congregational Church in America dating from about 1630 forward(several volumes).

To join the Puritan Church(Pilgrims were not necessarily members)one had to amass an estate worth $1000. They were called Freedmen at that point.

My family arrived c. 1627. Ancestor became a Freedman in 1646, apparently got disgusted with things in the Bay Colony about that time and took off for what is now Old Saybrook in Conn. A family member married, about that time, Cotton Mather...the real Puritan Nasty. From Saybrook, the family connected with the Morris family of New Haven by marriage, moved upstream to Litchfield along with Henry Ward Beecher...the famous Puritan preacher whose daughter, Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. Her schoolteacher was one of my ancestors(great aunt many times removed).

The Puritans were one of the nastiest groups ever to arrive here.
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Itchinjim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
18. Yep, and the Founding Fathers even had a name for conservatives/fundies:
Tories.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. The Tories were not particularly fundie. They were Church of England, loyal to the king
and some were Catholics, loyal to the Stuart monarchy and the Pope. The Catholics and the Anglicans (to the extent they retained the trappings of Catholicism) were not fundamentalists, which are, in essence, believers in the Bible and in direct communication of individuals with God, rather than through the intercession of the Pope and priests or the King (head of the Church in England) and his religious ministers. In fact, the Tories in England, and here as well, opposed the Protestants and especially those of fundamentalist bent--the real purists, the Puritans and others who recognized no authority but their own conscience, in communication with God guided by God's word, the Bible.

It was the Puritans--who had left England because they were persecuted there--who were the early American "fundies," with extensive impacts on our culture, some good, some bad. Their beliefs in individual conscience, in literacy and education and in simple living had many good effects. Their sexual puritanism was poisonous. American Tories were more businessmen, and pretty much just as ribald as the "mainstream" English were. Their sins were different--slave trading, for instance. And I wouldn't exactly call them "conservative" or more conservative than some of the revolutionaries, who also had wealth and privilege to protect. It was more: Which way to go--stay with the king, or break away--to maintain that wealth and privilege?

The Revolution, of course, had people like Tom Paine and Thomas Jefferson, who had far more in mind than troubles about tea taxes. They were into "the rights of man" and revolutionary democracy. Jefferson died penniless. He was attached to his slaves and his land for emotional reasons, rather than entrepreneurship. He was a terrible businessman. But a lot of the businessmen and landowners who joined the Revolution did so for business reasons--maintaining wealth and privilege (which the king was encroaching upon)--rather than for idealistic reasons. So they were "conservative," too, like the Tories. And there was a real struggle, early on, to bend the revolutionary colonies back toward a monarchical system--for instance, they wanted George Washington to take the crown--to protect wealth and privilege from the "rabble." It was very difficult for some to grasp the new system as realistic and practical. They had only known a monarchical system as workable--with layers of wealth and privilege. They did not consider the plebians--ordinary workers, for instance--to be equal to themselves, even though Thomas Jefferson had declared it so. ("All men are created equal...")

We see some of these tensions in the Constitution's structure of power, with an elitist Senate--a la the Roman Republic--combined with a more representative, plebian House, and with an executive whom the writers of the Constitution (mainly James Madison) attempted to hedge round in every way possible, to prevent a monarchical tyranny. I would say, yes, the strain of elitism is "conservative" (trying to preserve the forms of the past), and "Tory" is an accurate enough word for it, but Tories were not fundies; they were the opposite. They believed in a hierarchical structure of power; the Puritans (fundies as to religion) did not--aside from the Puritan hierarchy of God over man, man over woman and man over children after they were out of diapers; but no man--king, pope, president--could tell them what to think.

So, "Tories" and "fundies" were rather opposite of each other. In England, the Tories were Anglican or Catholic, and the Whigs were "fundies"--that is, against the Pope and against the Catholic-like Church of England, and for a "purer" religion than Catholicism, based on the Bible (and, not incidentally, on literacy for all--that is, the ability to read the Bible for yourself and interpret it yourself). There, the fundie types were republicans, the Whigs--anti-monarchy, and for parliament's power over the king. Here, things were not so clear but that division did carry over to some extent. The Tories were Anglican or Catholic; the Rebels were mostly various shades and degrees of Protestant (including Deists like Jefferson and Adams--non-sectarian Christians).

There were Quaker Tories, by the way, and Iroquois Tories, and African-American Tories--who sided with the British, and the latter two fought for the British against the colonial Rebels. The British offered freedom to African-Americans who fought for them.

I was trying to think where I would place our current "fundies" on the political spectrum. They are kind of like nativist thugs--adhering to some sort of "white world" that never existed--more like nazis than anything else, and there is really no analog for that back in Revolutionary times. The Tories and the British were not nazi-like; nor were even the most extremist Protestants, except maybe the Cromwellians (who never had cache here). The Puritans had some nazi characteristics, but really were too religious to be called nazis. The Cromwellians provide an example of how extremist "fundies"--Puritans--would behave if they could take over nation--a joyless austerity would prevail, amid great violence and repression. I think the U.S. is too multi-cultural--too diverse--for it to work here (and that may have been true back in Revolutionary times as well). It didn't work in England for long. It could be--and, indeed, was--imposed on us as a kind of illusion (with the Bush Junta), and that effort continues. But the "fundies" in my opinion are, and always will be, a tiny minority here--but currently with a Big Trumpet, given them by the corpo-fascist media, way out of proportion to their numbers.

They are not Tories, exactly (although they seem to need authority and might follow a "big man" tyrannical leader--sort of monarchists). They are not conservative (they are quite radical). And their stupidity, intolerance and thuggishness put them way out of the mainstream. It's curious how we can become so obsessed with them, but that is the corpo-fascist press, which uses them to write false narratives of our political life to go along with the corporate-run 'TRADE SECRET' voting machine results, to create distractions from the real issues and to demoralize the great progressive majority.

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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. We don't know that Thomas Jefferson had a sexual relationship with Sally Hemmings
We don't know if it was Jefferson himself or his brother Randolph or any of the other Jefferson males who frequented Monticello.

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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Got a link? n/t
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. This Wikipedia article goes into detail concerning the issue
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Call me when you find a credible source. n/t
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Ring! The sources are included within the article
Edited on Sun Feb-14-10 12:14 AM by brentspeak
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