Should We Clone Neanderthals?

[kristopher]

Should We Clone Neanderthals?
Volume 63 Number 2, March/April 2010
by Zach Zorich

The scientific, legal, and ethical obstacles


If Neanderthals ever walk the earth again, the primordial ooze from which they will rise is an emulsion of oil, water, and DNA capture beads engineered in the laboratory of 454 Life Sciences in Branford, Connecticut. Over the past 4 years those beads have been gathering tiny fragments of DNA from samples of dissolved organic materials, including pieces of Neanderthal bone. Genetic sequences have given paleoanthropologists a new line of evidence for testing ideas about the biology of our closest extinct relative.

The first studies of Neanderthal DNA focused on the genetic sequences of mitochondria, the microscopic organelles that convert food to energy within cells. In 2005, however, 454 began a collaborative project with the Max Planck Institute in Leipzig, Germany, to sequence the full genetic code of a Neanderthal woman who died in Croatia's Vindija cave 30,000 years ago. As the Neanderthal genome is painstakingly sequenced, the archaeologists and biologists who study it will be faced with an opportunity that seemed like science fiction just 10 years ago. They will be able to look at the genetic blueprint of humankind's nearest relative and understand its biology as intimately as our own.

In addition to giving scientists the ability to answer questions about Neanderthals' relationship to our own species--did we interbreed, are we separate species, who was smarter--the Neanderthal genome may be useful in researching medical treatments. Newly developed techniques could make cloning Neanderthal cells or body parts a reality within a few years. The ability to use the genes of extinct hominins is going to force the field of paleoanthropology into some unfamiliar ethical territory. There are still technical obstacles, but soon it could be possible to use that long-extinct genome to safely create a healthy, living Neanderthal clone. Should it be done?

<snip>

Although most of the Neanderthal genome sequencing is now being done by the San Diego-based company Illumina, the Max Planck Institute initially chose 454 because it had come up with a way to read hundreds of thousands of DNA sequences at a time. Genome-sequencing technology is advancing at a rate comparable to computer processing power. "Six years ago if you wanted to sequence E. coli , which is about 4 million base-pairs in length, it would have taken one or maybe two million dollars, and it would have taken a year and 150 people," says Jarvie. "Nowadays, one person can do it in two days and it would cost a few hundred dollars."

Putting the fragments themselves in order can be a little tricky. "At first glance...

http://www.archaeology.org/1003/etc/neanderthals.html

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. for the Geico commercials?

it would be interesting to see how their brains function and how well they could function in this world...

sP

[Warpy]

14. Considering the sophistication of things found at Neanderthal sites

I'd say they'd adapt quite well. I remember reading about one of their adhesives, a substance composed of some 30 ingredients, heated and cooled to work, sort of a Neanderthal hot glue gun.

If forensic reconstruction of Neanderthal faces is any indication, they wouldn't even draw funny looks walking through a shopping mall:

http://www.peabody.yale.edu/exhibits/fossils/fossils/neanderthal.html He looks a little like a school janitor I used to see around.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/080917-neanderthal-photo.html Bigotry left her face filthy and her hair unkempt, but notice the color. Yes, gene fragments have confirmed they were redheads.

http://www.ifi.uzh.ch/~zolli/CAP/Gib2.htm Bottom picture, what's not to love?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

32. i have always thought so as well

i think they would do well and probably only be slightly noticeable intelligence gap...

sP

[roguevalley]

87. actually, neaderthal brains are SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than ours.

truly.

[old mark]

59. The example in the first link

looks like Pete Townshend.....


I think we should leave them alone, but I we probably won't.


mark

[TheBigotBasher]

64. They do very well in the Republican Party

they can be paid $100,000 just to talk



they can get to Congress



they can become President.

[Dr.Phool]

75. We have a tea-bagger shortage.

[roguevalley]

86. I love the "Did cavemen invent fire?" commercial best. :-D

[Journeyman]

2. There are so many on the right side of the aisle as it is, do we really need more?. . .

[Richard D]

6. No need to insult the poor

. . Neanderthals by comparing them with that ill-bred lot.

[RKP5637]

8. Good Point!!! n/t

[Journeyman]

12. 'Tis true - at least the Neanderthals had the good form to die out . . .

[dflprincess]

37. Neanderthals lived in society where they had to rely on each other for survival

proving they were actually more intelligent than both Republicans and DLCers.

[Mari333]

3. They will run for Congress and they will WIN! mark my words

[Fumesucker]

4. Asimov thought about this question in 1958

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_Little_Boy

[asdjrocky]

27. OMG I remember that story!

It was in an old book I had of his stories. It was one of my favorites.

[Fumesucker]

33. Yes, it was a touching story..

[Hekate]

48. Reading that story so long ago no doubt influenced my reaction to the current idea...

By this time we know that Neanderthals were a people with a culture of their own... Causing a cloned baby to be born into our time -- a solitary being, an "ugly little girl" in our world, would be very cruel and unethical.

There are things that shouldn't be done, even if we know they *can* be done. Outside of laboratories, real life is lived, and real hearts break.

Hekate

[truedelphi]

52. This sounds like a good read. Thank you for pointing it out. n/t

[johnaries]

70. I was going to post about that, both the short story and the expanded

novel later written by Asimov and Robert Silverberg.

Asimov later told the story of how he asked his wife, Janet, if she would read it and give her opinion. She took it into another room and would occasionally com out and tell him how much she liked it. Finally, she came out in tears and said "You SOB, you didn't tell me it was so SAD!"

Warning to any potential readers - it will make you cry. But it is a beautiful story. I highly recommend the novelization.

[Fumesucker]

80. A lot of people say that Asimov was not good at characterization..

This story proves them wrong, characterization just wasn't his focus most of the time but when it was his focus he knew how to do it very well.

[johnaries]

82. Absolutely! He dealt mostly with "archetypes" because his stories

themselves mostly were not character-based. But some of his characters are some of my all-time favorites.

[RKP5637]

5. Scary? Sounds like Jurassic Park (maybe). n/t

[hayu_lol]

13. A noted pair of anthropologists(names forgotten)who have...

done many investigations of native American peoples, wrote a fiction novel a few years ago. The title was:

RAISING CAIN

Worth looking it up at your library. The subject was a Neanderthal cloned from DNA. Full of surprises and some astute academic thought went into this book.

[RKP5637]

16. Thanks for the info!!! n/t

[Lint Head]

7. Why? They're already here.

[renegade000]

9. an apt comic:

:P

[aquart]

10. No.

[xchrom]

11. As long as they have all rights -- are granted a protective

Environment - as long as studies are conducted without
intrusive abuse -- then yes.

I belive their disappearence is in part due to the likes
of cro magnon -- it would be nice to undo some
of that.

Culturally they would probably not be the same.

[AlienGirl]

24. Except that isn't what would happen; the cloned kids would grow up in a lab and be used as resources

There is currently no reason they would be considered "persons" under the law, because they would be not quite the same as modern humans. Their legal status would, at best, be like that of chimps--and they'd probably be much more useful for research, because they'd be so much like humans in genome.

The only ethical thing is to grant them the right not to be born until we have laws recognizing non-human personhood.

Tucker

[Quantess]

39. If you can stand the heartbreak,

google "malish monkey"

Just thinking about it brings tears to my eyes.

[eShirl]

54. They weren't like humans, they WERE humans. n/t

[AlienGirl]

74. The law will not recognize that; they would not be considered "persons"

[KonaKane]

15. Haven't we already? They are called Republicans.

waka waka waka....

[baldguy]

20. +1

:rofl:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

17. Since we killed them all and probably ate them it seems the least we can do

[NoPasaran]

18. The other white meat?

[Crabby Appleton]

62. They taste like chicken. nt

[DailyGrind51]

19. Why, don't we have enough teabaggers already?

[Joe the Liberal]

23. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha n/t

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[athenasatanjesus]

21. In all seriousness they will be exploited nt

[sudopod]

26. They had bigger brains

maybe they will be the ones doing the exploiting. :D

[L. Coyote]

34. Indeed, they might want some of their inventions back

[athenasatanjesus]

35. In my experience intellectuals don't exploit that often.

The exploiters are usually the ones who either luck into a lot of power,or grab it through sheer single mindedness.
So if they are the smarter ones they will likely try and use their big brains to help the world out.

[DailyGrind51]

71. By capitalists seeking alternatives to "overpaid" homo sapiens workers!

[Bluebear]

22. YES! The Netherlands is a great country!

Oh, wait...

[Hubert Flottz]

25. We already did...

They call them republicans or freepers or tea baggers or Palins.

[madmom]

28. I'm convinced we inbred with them, just look around. People really do them

a disservice by referring to them being dumb and (for lack of a better term) republican like. They were really pretty intelligent.

[jimlup]

68. You might enjoy Robert Sawyer's "Neandrethal Parallax"

Based on exactly this observation.

[madmom]

88. Thanks I'll check it out.

[AlienGirl]

79. I suspect interbreeding, as well. I hope they didn't die, they just merged in.

[Jennicut]

29. We need to stop messing with the natural progression of things.

Haven't we learned anything?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

30. One Michelle Bachmann is more than enough, thank you very much

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Yeah, why not?

"Just because we can do something- doesn't mean we should" - sez who? Shit, do it. See what happens. It would be interesting.

[The Gunslinger]

36. We have enough fox news viewers already.

[Quantess]

38. Why? So we can subject them to scientific experiments?

Primate research has a lot of cruelty involved, in the name of science. I am a fan of science, but not when the studies are redundant and involve cruelty and inhumane treatment, for dubious results.

Google "malish monkey"

[usregimechange]

40. No, they will vote Republican

[Maru Kitteh]

41. I am WAY TOO TIRED - I read "Should we clone the Netherlands"

And I was thinking - It could only be an improvement really.

[JI7]

42. how about a dinosaur ?

[PurityOfEssence]

43. Some researchers contend that Neanderthals were smarter, which would not be surprising

It sort of fits with a cynical view of human interaction that a smarter culture was overwhelmed and deliberately wiped out by a less intelligent one.

Putting the snideness aside, though, it looks as if the Neanderthal population was simply never very big, and this sheer advantage of numbers and its attendant genetic diversity ultimately helped to do them in. There's been some very interesting research in the last few years...

[Monk06]

44. Good luck finding a good roast duck with mango chutney

[thelordofhell]

58. I think you meant mango salsa

Yeah, next time maybe do a little "research".

:argh: :rofl:

[Monk06]

61. Must be me reverting to my English origins. All a matter of consistancy when you think about it

Cooked or :dilemma:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_koa6gYvQPWQ/Siaw4ta1HjI/AAAAAAAAAZ0/wJsMOvoGj-M/s400/mango+salsa+rwecipe.jpg

Salata

Personally I don't think Neanderthals were much into roasting their duck or cooking their salsa







:rofl:

[thelordofhell]

69. I always thought the phrase was a subtle jab at AFLAC

Seeing as how their "spokesman" is a duck.

[Monk06]

85. Actually the AFLAC logo is a goose in which case I think I'd prefer the mango chutney

:9

[Jack Rabbit]

45. What? Bring back Jesse Helms?

We've got enough teabaggers running about.

[krispos42]

46. Leave Strom Thurman alone!

[Lyric]

47. Probably not a good idea, because we are not selfless enough to manage it yet.

They are people, just as we are. They would most likely be just as smart as we are, and every bit as self-aware and human as we are. We might be capable of bringing them back, but we are not Lords and Masters of the universe--we don't get to dictate their lives to them. And we'd also have to be capable of engineering an entire, genetically-diverse community of them, not just one or two. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to live on a planet in which you are the only individual of your species? Unless there's a community available, the loneliness and sadness would be unbearable. They deserve to be able to marry and have families, just as we do, and it would be incredibly cruel to bring a human to life that has no chance of marriage and family.

Even if they can interbreed with humans (and there's no evidence that they can) they are very, very different than we are--a mixed relationship probably wouldn't work out well. One theory about the fall of the Neanderthals is that because they were almost exclusively carnivorous and our ancestors had far more diverse diets, the decline of easily-hunted megafauna hit their communities much, much harder than ours. We have no idea whether they'll be able to effectively digest the grain-based foods that we eat, or if we'd have to provide them enormous amounts of meat. We have no idea whether or not our baby formulas would have the appropriate balance of proteins, fats, and carbs for a baby Neanderthal to thrive. We don't know what kind of medical issues they're prone to, and what germs they might be especially vulnerable to.

And if the Neanderthal turns out to truly be as intelligent and aware as we are, what kind of life could we give it? We know little to nothing about Neanderthal culture and traditions, so we could tell this person nothing about who her people were or how they lived. We'd have representatives from every major religion on the planet hounding this poor person, trying to proselytize, and we'd have practically no information about the religion that's part of Neanderthal religion. All we know is that they seem to have venerated cave bears to some extent. Not many cave bears in the modern world, ya know? How would we protect this fragile person from exploitation by those who would love nothing more than the prestige of successfully converting the "primitive?"

And what if, after she's old enough to be asked her permission to do certain tests and experiments, she says NO? If we give her full human rights, that is precisely what might happen. If we don't give her full rights, then we are nothing more than modern slavers. We can't create someone and expect that we can violate her privacy in order to satisfy our own scientific curiosity. She HAS to be able to say NO. With that in mind, how would we ever manage to get the funding for the project? There aren't many governments who'd hand over that kind of money without any guarantee whatsoever of a scientific "payback" later.

Selfishly, yes--I'd love to see a Neanderthal. I'd love to know how we're alike and how we're different. However, we simply have not evolved enough yet ourselves to manage this in a responsible way. We are still too focused on greed and too reluctant to acknowledge the human rights of people we see as "different." Until those things change, we have no business cloning anything that qualifies as human.

[AsahinaKimi]

83. +1000

Well stated!

[JoeyT]

49. We already know as much about them as we can ever learn without actually cloning one.

Now we have to clone one to answer the most important question: How do they taste?

[Toucano]

50. I have not read the OP, but my answer is NO, do not clone W.

EOM.

[Initech]

51. No need, they're called republicans.

[LeftishBrit]

53. They've been cloned already - what do you think Bush was?

[eShirl]

55. First we must ask whether we should clone ANY humans. n/t

[Rich Uncle Pennybags]

56. I'd imagine they've been attempting to clone people for a while now.

What law has never been broken?

[eShirl]

60. My point being that Neanderthals were also human.

[LostInAnomie]

57. I don't think we're ready for it yet.

Technologically, we my be able to accomplish it shortly. But, cloning Neanderthals would only have horrible results. We would either exploit them as cheap labor. Or, some do-gooder would demand to have them introduced into modern society and they would be the victim of all manner of crimes.

Maybe if we are going to bring a species back we should pick one a little less sentient.

[HopeHoops]

63. Why, when we've to teabaggers?

And Glenn Beck is the head Neanderthal.

[spanone]

65. why, cheney is on teevee and one is enough

[Hugabear]

66. Let's clone them and exploit the fuck out of them. CHEAP LABOR

I'm sure they could rationalize it by saying they're not technically humans, and therefore not quite protected by human rights conventions.

I say that somewhat sarcastically, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did happen.

[RedCappedBandit]

73. Considering that is exactly what rethugs want to do with anyone who isn't a wasp,

I'd only be surprised if it *wasn't* on their minds.

[ensho]

67. sure, why not - a real boon for science

cloning doesn't bother me.

cloning is like fractals. the same but not the same.

something like quarks that can be here and there and inbetween all at the same time.

life is so interesting!

[RedCappedBandit]

72. Sounds like it could be potentially unethical

If unable to learn our language, that would be one miserable and lonely humanoid.


Heck, he or she would probably be miserable and lonely regardless.

[Orsino]

76. Certainly. There are not nearly enough people on earth...

...and I'm sure that we would all welcome more folks who don't look like us.

[rug]

77. It's the republican answer to Acorn.

[JVS]

78. We still have problems with racism. I really don't think ressurecting an extinct sentient spieces..

is something we're ready for.

[ddeclue]

81. Aren't there already too many Republicans?

:rofl:

[Blue-Jay]

84. We should clone them for the OSU offensive line.

Then again, nobody would notice.

/O! H!