Afraid of letting women fly - the IOC and women ski jumping

[suffragette]

So, who is this ski jumper?

Her name is Lindsey Van and although she holds the world record for the longest jump at the Olympics normal jump venue, she won't be competing.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100212/wl_time/08599196344700


The IOC seems to be stumbling over itself to keep excluding women ski jumpers.

The say it's a new discipline, but ski jumping is one of the oldest events and women have been trying to participate since it started.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-morris/olympic-gender-discrimina_b_461592.html

The dispute over letting women fly is almost as old as the sport itself. Ski jumping was developed by the intrepid Norwegians who climbed up hills on their skis and then skied back down, jumping over obstacles. By the middle of the 19th century, ski jumping had evolved into a sport that attracted high-spirited, thrill-seeking skiers. The first woman on record to hurl herself off a jump at an international competition was an Austrian countess, Paula Lamberg, who in 1911 jumped 22 meters -- in a skirt! Girls, dressed as boys, competed at Nordic competitions until the 1950s when doctors insisted that ski jumping was too dangerous for girls and could affect their fertility.


Ok, we can see from the above bit that it became about fertility for awhile, the old saw that has been used countless times to "protect" women from working in certain (usually well-paid) jobs. Time has shown that this has generally been applied unequally and arbitrarily. What man has been excluded based on risks to his sperm or testes? That's not being cited as a reason by the IOC these days, though it wouldn't be surprising if some within that organization still think it's a factor.

Then there's the argument that there haven't been enough world competitions. Well, despite having to pay their own way, couch surf instead of staying in hotels, etc, women have been competing and doing quite well, thank you.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_11748694
Lindsey Van made nordic ski history today, winning the first-ever gold medal in women's ski jumping at the nordic world championships in Liberec, Czech Republic.Van's winning jump of 97.5 meters was 4.5 meters better than the second-best jump, which gave Ulrike Graessler of Germany the silver medal. Anette Sagen of Norway claimed bronze.

The next is not enough women in the sport. Yet that, too, falls down when compared to other sports that have now been included:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-morris/olympic-gender-discrimina_b_461592.html

Jacques Rogge, president of the IOC, insists that allowing the women to jump would "dilute the medals." There are only 185 elite women jumpers compared to 2500 men, he points out. Numbers didn't seem to matter when the IOC added snow cross, a roller-derby type of event on snow, to the Vancouver Olympics despite the fact that that only 135 women compete internationally.

"Dilute the medals." Really, I mean, really? That's the best the IOC can come up with?

The only dilution I can see is that women would likely perform just as well, in some cases better, than the best male ski jumpers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-morris/olympic-gender-discrimina_b_461592.html

"This is the 21st century," points out Lindsay Van, 27, one of the world's top women ski jumpers who has been training for almost 20 years and dreaming of one day earning an Olympic medal. "It feels like we're in the '50s and '60s pushing women's rights. This should not be happening now." While the world watches men jump for gold on Vancouver's 300-foot ski jump, Van, who holds the world's record of both men and women on that hill, will be watching from the sidelines, despite the fact that she has proven that women can fly, while the IOC's old men dig in their heels and stick in the mud.



I have enjoyed watching the men fly and will continue to do so. Just wish I could watch their sisters soar beautifully through the air, too.

edited to correct spelling

[WhiteTara]

1. dates back to the witch burnings

they are afraid of women with wings.

[havocmom]

4. Also afraid of women with competitive drive and skills

that best the boys in some cases

But, yeah, fear of flying ;)

[suffragette]

7. "Fear of Flying"

Oh, that brings back memories.

Good one!

[havocmom]

19. When I saw your OP subject line, it all came back to me

Ah, those were the days....

[suffragette]

32. Would have made a great title

along with "IOC keeps event zipped up."

Now you just planted a Peggy Lee earbug in my ear. Those were the days, my friend.

[WhiteTara]

34. brave women fear nothing

brave men fear women.

[Captain Hilts]

2. PERMIT the women to do so! The record holder on this jump is...a WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[suffragette]

5. It was a post of yours on a thread about this that inspired me

to search around and locate these articles and create this post.

Thanks for that and I agree completely.

They should be competing in these games.

[Captain Hilts]

6. I've put a link to your thread in the sports forum....

wish it luck!

[suffragette]

10. Thanks. I considered posting there, but feel this also has general interest

since it shows how pervasive discrimination still is.

Apparently a B.C. judge found that this is discriminatory, but ruled the IOC has to be the body to make the change:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/2010wintergames/sports/2010wintergames/Female+jumpers+take+forerunner+role/2547957/story.html

The IOC refused to allow a women’s ski jumping event at the Vancouver Games. And although a B.C. Supreme Court judge ruled that it was discriminatory and contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it was not illegal.

[sandnsea]

15. Where is NOW? This is outrageous.

They already had the men's event. I bet there is time for them to arrange a woman's event if there's enough protest. Or at least a demonstration event. I wish some woman's group would get a hold of this and raise holy hell.

[tridim]

28. There aren't enough women jumpers to hold an event.

I mean they could let her jump by herself, but that's not really competition.

If she competed with the men she's lose by 10 meters. Not her fault, it's just that she's much lighter than the average male jumper. She broke the record by starting higher on the hill, again not her fault.

[sandnsea]

39. The article addressed that

There are as many women jumpers as there are participants in other sports. They could at least make it a demonstration to build participation.

[Webster Green]

3. This really pisses me off!

Those men are insane. This makes no sense at all.

What a weird world we live in. :wtf:

[DemoTex]

8. Ironically, Lindsey Vonn seems to be advertising Bet-At-Home.com and Visa.

Bet-At-Home is currently making book online on the 2010 Winter Olympics, including Vonn's races. Presumably, you can charge your wager to your Visa card. I love one-stop shopping.

Ski Women

Who will win the women´s downhill at the Olympic Games?
(17/02/10 19:00)
Lindsey Vonn (USA) 2,50 Maria Riesch (GER) 4,00 Anja Pärson (SWE) 5,70
Andrea Fischbacher (AUT) 16,00 Emily Brydon (CAN) 16,00 Nadja Kamer (SUI) 16,00
Ingrid Jacquemod (FRA) 16,00 Julia Mancuso (USA) 20,00 Fabienne Suter (SUI) 20,00
Marion Rolland (FRA) 20,00 Nadia Styger (SUI) 31,00 Elisabeth Görgl (AUT) 40,00
Marie Marchand-Arvier (FRA) 40,00 Gina Stechert (GER) 65,00 Dominique Gisin (SUI) 65,00
Aurelie Revillet (FRA) 65,00 Tina Maze (SLO) 75,00 Daniela Merighetti (ITA) 80,00
Anna Fenninger (AUT) 80,00 Andrea Dettling (SUI) 125,00 Lucia Recchia (ITA) 125,00
Leanne Smith (USA) 125,00 Elena Fanchini (ITA) 125,00 Stacey Cook (USA) 125,00
Chelsea Marshall (USA) 150,00

http://www.bet-at-home.com/start.aspx

[dionysus]

11. the lady in the OP is a different person... lindsey van. not vonn...

[peacetalksforall]

9. Fertitlity As if the Olympic Committee is going to get sued? They should take care of their own

business, not that of women - who could have already made a decision to proceed because their doctor said it to them or they read about it -but it is their choice.

I can't believe this - I had no idea.

[sandnsea]

12. I wish those protestors would focus on this

This is important. I don't know that I can watch this sport anymore. It is so wrong.

[tridim]

13. It's a mass/gravity issue, not a skill issue.

I wish there were an easy answer, but so far I haven't heard one.

Maybe adding extra weight for the women would work? Adjust the jumper's weight with lead lining (or whatever) until all the jumpers are the same weight. Allowing lighter competetors to start higher on the hill simply isn't fair.

[Captain Hilts]

16. The men that compete are very small and light. nt

[EmeraldCityGrl]

43. Yes they are. Women would kick male ass if allowed to compete...

that's what this is about. It's 2010 for christs sake!

[Electric Monk]

17. Aerodynamics might play a role too, with women's bodies being naturally a little more wing shaped

Larger near the leading edge, smoother at the trailing edge (no bulge in the crotch), thus causing less turbulence.

http://virtualskies.arc.nasa.gov/aeronautics/tutorial/wings.html



edit to add: I'm all for allowing women's ski jumping in the Olympics too. It's silly to keep them from competing if they want to.

[enlightenment]

20. Some of the male jumpers I watched yesterday were as

small as females - and the IOC isn't using that as an argument, are they (maybe somewhere down their list 'reasons').

As you point out, it can be adjusted without much difficulty, so it's really a non-argument.

[tridim]

23. It's also about center of mass, which differs based on sex.

There is a real reason men and women are separated in competition, and it's not sexism.

[tridim]

26. She set the record by starting higher on the hill.

Thus she had different energy at the takeoff, although it's difficult to measure. There are too many variables, like extra friction for instance. At that point a lighter body with a duplicate technique will always fly farther.

This problem is much more complex than "Just let her compete with the men". I don't blame the IOC for being careful.

[suffragette]

21. They could easily have separate mens and women's competitions

They do that for the sports in which women have a disadvantage in body mass and/or strength.

Why not do it the same if women are perceived to have an advantage?

[tridim]

24. That's the whole point. There aren't enough women jumpers in the world to justify a competition.

At least not yet.

[suffragette]

27. Yet other sports have been included with equal or fewer international competitors

I understand that is the reason they are now giving, but it doesn't seem to be applied equally.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1963484_1963490_1963447,00.html


Last year, nearly 100 women competed in FIS-sanctioned ski jump competitions. There are at least 30 top tier jumpers from 11 different nations — numbers equivalent to Olympic women's bobsled stats — and by the time the 2014 Olympics roll around several more world championships will have taken place. But a Vancouver shut-out has severely hindered the sport's ability to grow. Following the IOC's announcement, a recession-weary U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association dropped the U.S. women's ski jump team, saying that in this economy it could not afford to fund a non-Olympic event. Athletes have found their sponsorship opportunities limited, and Van worries that the sport's low profile will lessen its potential appeal for the next generation of jumpers. "When people hear about ski jump they just assume it's in the Olympics, but once they realize it's not, I don't feel that we're taken as seriously," she says.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article6157555.ece

In November 2006, the IOC rejected the bid for women’s ski jumping to be included in the Games, saying there were not enough world-class participants. It denies the charge of sexism, saying: “Decisions to include an event at the Olympic Games are taken on technical merit and with a global perspective. Women’s ski jumping does not reach the necessary technical criteria and as such does not yet warrant a place alongside other Olympic events.”

But the female athletes claim that their event is as universal as other winter sports. Women’s ski jumping had 99 competitors from 15 countries on the elite circuit last season. Only 30 women from 11 countries were competing in ski cross, the freestyle race that makes its debut in Vancouver, when it was accepted into the Olympic programme. Indeed, Lindsey Van, the American who won the first women’s World Championship this year, has soared farther than any man on the very hill in Whistler where the Olympic event will be held in February. Her record of 105.5 metres, set in January 2008, is half a metre better than a subsequent attempt by Guido Landert, from Switzerland.

[tridim]

30. Thanks, I didn't know that.

If they can prove they are Olympic class, let em jump.

I used to be a competitive gymnast, one class below the Olympic level. Making the move to Olympic level involved a major commitment and shift in attitude. I chose not to pursue it.

[suffragette]

31. "Let em jump"

and watch them fly.

[JVS]

37. Sounds like a good idea.

[immoderate]

54. Remember Galileo?

He proved that all masses fall at the same rate. There's your answer, and it was easy.

--imm

[tridim]

57. In a frictionless vacuum, yes.

[immoderate]

60. Well that's a start.

All ski jumpers are subject to friction. Are you saying that women are more affected by friction than men?
:popcorn:

--imm

[tridim]

61. Less friction, because they're generally lighter and have less body surface area.

This is physics 101, not a sexist rant as you seem to be implying.

[immoderate]

62. So women sky divers will fall faster than men?

Uhm, true, they are generally lighter, except, of course, where they are heavier. So wouldn't that mean that heavier people have a distinct advantage in this sport? Does the heaviest person always win? Where are the 300 pound ski jumpers? Consider that when you double a person's weight, you don't double their dimensions.

Body surface? Are they jumping naked? I think it would be more suit area than skin surface. Do women's suits have more area than men's for the same weight? How about cup size? Streamlining? And I know distribution is different, but the effects are complex and would, I think, tend to cancel each other out. Are you familiar with Fermi math?

While your padding out your physics 101 course, (which appears to include some heavy fluid dynamics and turbulence, no less) you might want to figure in, that while heavier jumpers may present more friction, they also have more momentum, which tends to neutralize that.

In ski jumping, the technique is to minimize friction on the ramp (the tuck) and then maximize air foil effects on the jump. There may be a gender advantage there in terms of flexibility. I doubt it though.

I'm for separate events because that's what they do, and it means there are more medals. (Yay!):patriot: For the record, I wasn't accusing anyone of misogyny, just bad science. :)

--imm

[BlancheSplanchnik]

55. if it were only a physics issue, then why did the IOC guy have to come up with the weaselly phrase

"dilute the sport"?

Dilute the sport??? What does that even mean? Sounds like something you'd say if you're trying to come up with a rubric for keeping Jews out of your Aryan competition, or Blacks out of your water fountains.......

what a heaping helping of steaming CRAP!



(hrmm, low-brow media all over the place focusing on the female Olympians' cheesecake skills-- doesn't dilute nuffin. Right, I forgot: when it comes to elite female competitors, erotic tease is MUCH more important than their impressive achievements That's not the IOC's purview, but there's a similar attitude in play. Well, lucky for the hot looking women Olympians--at least that gets them SOME attention, if not the kind of coverage and respect that male athletes get without question.. The women that don't have the looks that little boys' fantasies are made of, though, are pretty much SOL.)

[Odin2005]

14. The IOC should be ashamed of themselves.

[suffragette]

51. Yes, they should.

[Retrograde]

18. Dilute the medals? Maybe they can get rid of

events that are based on judgements, such as ice dancing, extreme skiing and the like.

Yes, I know they're hard and a lot of time and effort went into letting people get the results they do. But when I think of sports I think of events that can be objectively measured: someone covers X length the fastest, or jumps the farthest, or hits a target the most number of times, not who has the most "artistic" presentation. The Olympics motto talks about faster, higher and stronger, not glitzier and ratings-er.

Back to topic: why have both men's and women's ski jumping anyway? Why not just have ski jumping and let both compete? Lighter weight women may be a a disadvantage, but so then would be lighter weight men. If that's how it works.

[Captain Hilts]

22. All skiing and boarding that requires summersalts and ice dancing would be nice to be gone. nt

[fishwax]

45. well, ski jumping is also based on judgments, so that wouldn't help

:)

[Dappleganger]

25. What part of ski jumping requires one to pee standing up? nt

[JVS]

38. Some consider writing one's name in the snow while jumping to be the ultimate flourish.

;-)

[sandyj999]

29. I have always wondered about that and now I know

"You've come a long way baby" also means you still have a long way to go. So kind of them to worry about fertility.:sarcasm:

[Mari333]

33. FERTILITY WTF!?

DO THEY THINK A WOMAN WHO JUMPS WILL LAND AND ALL HER EGGS WILL ROLL DOWN HER FALLOPIAN TUBES AND FALL OUT OF HER VAGINA?
ARE THESE MEN INSANE?

[Withywindle]

49. It's not the landing.

It's the beginning of descent. As she starts to go down, her uterus might float up into her brain. Then when she lands, she'll be crazy.


:rofl:

[suffragette]

50. I knew it would come back to wandering wombs

Darn hysters can't keep from floating all over the place and making women hysterical.
And no one wants women landing record jumps and then howling at the moon in celebration.

;-)

[Mari333]

64. ROFL at both of you

[suffragette]

65. .

:D

[Berry Cool]

35. Once upon a time, when the PTB didn't want women competing in figure skating

against men, they explained that women would not be able to compete successfully because their skirts were so long that the judges would not be able to get a good look at their figure tracings as they made them on the ice.

The obvious solution---let the women compete in shorter skirts--was not considered.

It was not until a woman managed to be admitted into a competition (because no rule could be found distinctly prohibiting it) and almost beat them all that a decision was suddenly made to set up separate competitions for women, and to ban them from competing with the men.

[suffragette]

36. Here's the only pic I could find of Paula von Lamberg jumping

while wearing a skirt.

For some reason, it won't post directly.
Here's a link to google images that shows it:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=%22Paula%20von%20Lamberg%22&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Found this article in German with some history. Here's a Google translation of some of it:

http://www.skisprungschanzen.com/index.htm?/_imvisier/im_frauenskispringen.htm

A look at the evolution of women's ski jumping:
The history of women's ski jumping skiing is as old as the women themselves, as for men is also in Norway, the birthplace of the women's ski jumping because there should have been in 1862 in Trysil first jump attempt a Norwegian named Ingrid Vestby. From 1897 to the 10 years Ragna Pettersen says, is allegedly 12 meters have jumped on the Mesterbakken in Nydalen. End of the 19th Century, the city was located Asker, near Oslo, known by several ladies jumpings.
In the 20th Century, it was then also in other countries no longer a rarity, that girls could be seen on the jump hills. Thus, at the British Ski Championships 1911 in Switzerland, as the Englishwoman Hocking will be seven meters far jump. In the same year, however, sprang the noble Countess Paula Lamberg from Kitzbuehel 22 meters wide and is considered a pioneer of women's ski jumping in Central Europe. Worth mentioning is also a jumping in Trondheim, where the Gråkalbakken in March 1914 allegedly ENTERED twenty-eight Norwegian women to compete.



Great info, Berry Cool. The more times change...

[SeattleGirl]

40. I watched the segment Rachel did on this on Friday.

Sounded as if the main reason the women weren't allowed to compete in the Olympics in this sport are the old pasty white guys of the IOC.

Shameful.

[suffragette]

41. Oh I'll have to look for that

Sounds like she nailed it.

On a side note, I so miss being able to watch the games on CBUT.
It was great being able to switch between Canadian and U.S. coverage.
I'm missing that.

[undeterred]

42. I can't understand how men are allowed to bicycle

when the future of the species depends on their fragile external reproductive organs. I mean, look what it did to Lance Armstrong.

:hide:

[suffragette]

44. Exactly

It's pretty clear how foolish that thinking is when it's applied the other way around.


Let them jump and watch them fly!

[Liberal_in_LA]

46. +5

[Captain Hilts]

47. We have a winnah!!!! nt

[hayu_lol]

48. No valid reason at all why women cannot compete in the...

jumps. If the 'old buzzards' could be convinced quickly, then training could begin immediately for the next winter Olympics.

If women want it, let it be so.

[Monk06]

52. I think it was roids that did Lances stones in ............

:hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide:

[Monk06]

53. There is no reason for a division between men's and women's sports except that men do not want

to lose to a women. Not in anything ... ever.

Hell the French don't even believe women can
cook and the Italians and French still believe
that sex is a skill taught by men to women for
the purpose of providing pleasure to men.

End it all unisex completion. To the winner go
the spoils. Go hard or go home. And yes I see
the irony.

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM: Weight classes without regard to sex.

Ski width rigidly controlled.

Done. Poutrage eaten by the Simple Solution to Simple Problem Monster.

Next?

[tridim]

58. Yep, I've been thinking about this since yesterday..

and that's an obvious solution.

They do it for boxing.

[suffragette]

63. Weight classes is a good idea. But what's with the poutrage bit?

There have been some good ideas posted here and weight class, separate events, etc would all be valid ways to resolve this.
As Berry Cool did a great job of pointing out upthread, sometimes the simplest solution gets ignored when that's not the underlying reason for the issue.

And I just don't get how using "poutrage" contributes to the discussion in any thread.

Why did you feel the need to include that?
It really undercut what was a good suggestion by you by seeming to indicate you dont feel there's validity to discussing this topic.


:shrug:

[pipi_k]

59. I can very clearly see what the problem is....

They're afraid that menstruating women might spread their "cooties" around while they're flying through the air.

Menstruating women belong in little huts, segregated from the rest of the community.








adding :sarcasm: just in case....

[DirkGently]

66. This puts an extra nasty

taste in the mouth on this subject, I think:

So will the IOC approve women's ski jump for 2014? "We'll have to wait and see," IOC member Dick Pound said in an interview for an MSNBC.com documentary on women's ski jumping, Frozen Out of the Olympics. "If in the meantime you're making all kinds of allegations about the IOC and how it's discriminating on the basis of gender," he warned, "the IOC may say, 'Oh yeah, I remember them. They're the ones that embarrassed us and caused us a lot of trouble of trouble in Vancouver, maybe they should wait another four years or eight years.'"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1963447,00.html?xid=newsletter-weekly

What a sweetheart. I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, and I've read the claim that there are "hundreds of factors in play," but some of these Olympic Committee folks simply give off a distinct whiff of weasel. Combine this insanely nasty, threatening, power-deranged comment from Mr. Pound with that *horrible* "junior" start position they gave the women's lugers (after moving the men's start in response to the accident) and I do have to wonder if the real concern here is just a resistance to the possibility of having women's world records exceed men's world records.