OMF I'm pro life

[salinen]

Seriously. I really started thinking about it and came to the conclusion that abortion is not logical. One day I was considering all the endangered and threatened species and how the animals haven't a chance of survival without human intervention. It's impossible for these dwindling populations of animals to possibly come back unless there are efforts by humans to intercede, by protecting them from other humans and human activities. So then I started thinking about humans. Now we are no where near endangered, but we are life forms nonetheless. And if I want to protect endangered animals, why wouldn't I be interested in protecting other life forms, even if they were not endangered? And in a similar way, fetuses are powerless and would not survive without human intervention. They are only able, with our help, to become conscious adult human beings. In fact, they have no choice. They will always become humans. So then, I thought, why should I have a say whether another life form gets to live or die? Who the fuck am I? The decider? What if fetuses had some power to decide whether I lived or died? I wouldn't want that! Now I know that this will lead to the argument that they are not conscious beings yet, so, it's o.k. to abort them. Well, again, they have no choice but to become conscious beings. They can never become aardvarks! Anyway, that they have no consciousness at that point is a bad argument for an up or down vote. Does consciousness = goodness and worthiness of life? I hope not. Finally, I'm an atheist. So that fetus, in my opinion, only has one chance and that is to live a single life on earth. I think it should have that chance. I find it arrogant for myself to even consider the fate of another innocent life form. I am not more important.

Fire away

[Skidmore]

1. I'll wade through that later.

My head hurts too much now to process it.

[blondeatlast]

25. Apparently pro-life atheists are anti-spacing. that's as much as I got out of it--oh,

and something about aardvarks.

Dunno why, but out of that mess, the word "aardvarks" jumped out at me.

[MineralMan]

2. You are a man. You don't get to tell women what they may

or may not do regarding their reproductive choices.

That is all.

[muffin1]

11. I didn't check out his profile.

It figures, another guy telling women what to do with their bodies. Whatever.:boring:

[MineralMan]

82. Yeah, it's the same old thing...

[calimary]

143. Damn tiresome, I think!

MY right to decide what happens with MY body, in or out of MY doctor's office or MY bedroom - is NON-NEGOTIABLE.

Utterly, completely, and absolutely NON-NEGOTIABLE.

Period. End of story.

Unless you want to start talking about a different approach... like, how 'bout we start legislating what goes on with the scrotum, 'eh? If they can do it to us, I say we do it back to them. See how the menfolk like it when we start claiming the right to intrude into their most private bodily regions. Taste of their own medicine. See how they like it.

[Lucy Goosey]

110. +1

...exactly. Thank you.

[Mad_Dem_X]

120. +1,000,000

[Hello_Kitty]

184. Hey, other women don't have a right to tell me what to do either. eom

[MineralMan]

185. Very true. I think they're less likely to do that, though.

But men absolutely don't have that right.

[Hello_Kitty]

192. Anti-choice women have the annoying tendency to extrapolate their experience to all women

If they regret their past abortion, they assume every woman does. If motherhood was this amazingly spiritual and wondrous experience for them, it will be so for all women. It's so irritating. :eyes:

[MineralMan]

200. That's true. And then there are the fundie women who think that, since

they're popping out babies every year, everyone should have to.

[dsc]

286. virtually every poll on the subject has shown that to be false

woman and men are virtually identical on the issue. I will admit intensity can't be polled well and that might speak to going out and telling people what to do, but as to beliefs there is not much difference at all.

[AsahinaKimi]

253. exactly! +1

eom

[JerseygirlCT]

268. Exactly

I consider it far too important a decision - and yes, important from a moral point of view - for anyone to make except the woman whose body is necessary for that fetus to continue.

That means, as a woman, I am the decider - when it's my body involved.

Otherwise, the only person who has standing to make that decision is the woman involved.

[muffin1]

3. Then,

don't have an abortion.

[Lars39]

4. "Who the fuck am I?" A male human who won't ever be pregnant.

[Mad_Dem_X]

121. Exactly! n/t

[Dappleganger]

132. So here the argument ends. nt

[NoSheep]

5. Good for you. Just curious...are you a woman? I didn't think so.

[mikelgb]

6. No one is asking you to consider the fate of their pregnancy. You have no say.

Worry about your own. You are arrogant to consider this.

[Orsino]

30. +1 n/t

[salinen]

65. I'm only arrogant

if I want to apply this beyond myself, which I don't.

[MineralMan]

83. Then why bother to write it? You will never have an abortion. You'll

never perform one, either. It's none of your fucking business.

[boston bean]

243. Then you are pro choice, not pro life. nt

[marmar]

7. You're anti-abortion rights.....not Pro-Life.

Pro-Life is a marketing gimmick.

[salinen]

131. No. I don't know what to call it.

I'm o.k. with R. v. W.

[Zoeisright]

153. You're pro-nosy.

Mind your own fucking business. And shut up about things you don't understand.

[salinen]

169. I don't want this locked.

Unfortunately for you, I can say anything, anytime I want.

[Jefferson23]

226. As you said, you're ok with R. v. W, then fine. That is what pro-choice is all about.

So in essence, you are pro-choice.

[salinen]

235. Definitely pro choice

:>

[PeaceNikki]

237. Ah, so you just wanted to feel superior and get all judgey with pro-choicers?

[salinen]

240. Yes superior.

Thanks for noticing.

[TwilightGardener]

8. I'm pro-life, in the sense that I believe life begins at conception and

when it does begin, I wouldn't want to be the one to end it. But that's only for myself. I believe abortion should be legal because others hold different beliefs, have different circumstances. So I'm both pro-life and pro-choice.

[salinen]

95. Me too.

Thanks TG.

[Deep13]

163. How can it begin at conception...

...when its constitutent parts were alive before that?

[jdp349]

174. Disclaimer: I am just answering the question

Because neither egg nor sperm are capable of the further mitosis that eventually leads to a viable human. An egg will never become a human on its own, and neither will a sperm. A fertilized egg however, will if left to do its thing.

It's not a terribly unreasonable argument if you consider the question of when does human life begin outside of the context of a debate about abortion.

[Deep13]

177. That's true, but the ovum and sperm are alive nontheless.

Life began some four billion years ago and has been continuous since. There may be a point in time where a growing mass of cells becomes a person, but they were always alive.

[boston bean]

245. No, you are Pro Choice. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

269. Me too. nt

[Bunny]

9. When you become pregnant, let us know what you decide to do.

[Shell Beau]

10. You certainly have the right to feel that way, but if you are a man,

it just doesn't matter as much.

Abortion is something I would most likely never consider for myself, but I will not tell someone else what to do with their body.

[Lex]

12. You make YOUR decisions about YOUR fetus

and let other people decide for themselves, thanks.

[SidDithers]

13. You're elevating the fetus...

to the status of "future person" and giving it the same rights as the actual person involved in an abortion - the pregnant woman.

Fortunately, you're not the one making law.

Sid

[salinen]

19. It is a "future person"

I cannot become anything but.

[SidDithers]

32. There's no such thing as a "future person"...

there's a fetus, and then there's a person.

The fetus does not have the same rights a person. Assigning rights to the fetus is favourite tactic of abortion opponents. The rights of the actual person must always outweight the "rights" of the fetus.

Sid

[salinen]

36. Why?

I'm not saying you're wrong. But isn't a fetus a human in the fact that it cannot become a shark? I am not an abortion opponent.

[SidDithers]

46. No, a fetus is a fetus...

because to call it a human, or even a future human, is to give it rights that it doesn't have.

Sid

[salinen]

48. Sid!

only other people can collectively decide if a "thing" has rights or not? Is the fetus alive? Will it become a human? Arguments about when a collection of cells has rights is mind bending.

[Renew Deal]

71. Your argument doesn't work.

It seems that you're mixing up the fetus with rights issues.

You're saying that we can't call a fetus a "future human" because that means we would have to give it rights, and that's against your view. But rights are created by man (or God in some peoples view). Man can grant and revoke rights irregardless of the status of the fetus. What makes a fetus a fetus? It's just the name that english speaking man uses for the fetus.

Now that's confusing! ;)

[Common Sense Party]

221. When does the fetus become a human?

[salinen]

222. And should humans

decide when that happens?

[PeaceNikki]

223. Should you decide what happens to the cancer cells that "live" in your body?

Or bacteria? Or fungus? They are "living", too, you know?

WTF kind of stupid argument is THAT?

[salinen]

238. Bacteria, funguses, cancer cells

fetuses. You make no distinction?

[PeaceNikki]

239. Nope.

A zygote is not an ACTUAL person. It's a POTENTIAL person. The zygote, of course, has a long way to go before becoming a functional person; it has none of the limbs, none of the organs, none of the central nervous system, none of the circulatory or respiratory systems; it is a single cell that contains the genetic blueprint of a future person.

If A has the potential to become B, then it follows that A is not B. An acorn is not an oak tree. You cannot climb the limbs of an acorn, build a tree-house in an acorn, or rest in the shade of an acorn. And you certainly are not chopping down a mighty oak tree by removing an acorn from the ground. Or diaper a zygote.

[salinen]

246. Once upon a time

Cute little PeaceNikki was a zygote. And she took on nutrient and became a fetus. Then she grew and grew and finally crowned and coughed and cried and suckled and burped and pooed. And look at her now, all growed up and responding. But she never could have been here without first becoming a zygote.

[PeaceNikki]

248. This is indeed a sensational point, but, truth be told, it's actually a non sequitur.

The fact is, if I had never been born, I would not be around to mourn my potential non-existence.

In other words, once I reached an adult age, taking all my experiences from me would be an obvious crime, because there would be a tangible victim involved: the 37-year old me. But robbing a future person of these experiences, a person who will never exist, is impossible: it's like trying to loot a store that will never be built.

It is impossible to harm a person who will never exist.

[salinen]

258. So it's the experiences as a dry

human that makes us human? You give all the validity for life to experiences. I guess that's a problem for me. I mean, I'm trying to make sense of this for myself. Experiences, memories, consciousness, communication, etc., are definitely human activities. Should those be the factors in the decision of what is human or not?

[PeaceNikki]

260. No.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7784024&mesg_id=7788442

[Common Sense Party]

249. At what point does it stop being a zygote and start being an ACTUAL

person?

[PeaceNikki]

251. One of the best tests of personhood is viability, upon which the 1973 Supreme Court decision Roe vs

Wade was based. Viability is defined as the ability to live outside the womb. It is based upon the broader logic that "a person is as a person does." In other words, people normally breathe on their own, circulate blood on their own, fight off most germs on their own and sustain normal cellular activity on their own. A fetus is able to achieve these functions once it reaches a weight of about 5 pounds. This usually occurs between the 7th and 8th month of pregnancy -- coincidentally, about the time that the baby has finished its brain and central nervous system.

[Common Sense Party]

281. So around the 7th month of pregnancy, it is a person and has rights?

[PeaceNikki]

282. That's kinda what SCOTUS says.

[PeaceNikki]

283. There is no clear line over which a nonviable fetus suddenly becomes a viable baby.

No premature fetus has survived delivery before the 7th month without technology. The 8th month is a gray area, and bioethicists advocate erring well on the side of caution by defining these babies as persons. After the 8th month, they are clearly viable, and are full-fledged persons.

[M155Y_A1CH]

61. I get the point, but...

Human sperm and eggs fit your definition too. Are you arguing for their rights as well?

[salinen]

72. I could go the other direction

and say, well, maybe a child anywhere before birth should be included in the reproductive rights category. I don't know. I like to argue. I actually think Roe vs. Wade is fine. If I had to say though, eggs and sperm should not have any rights. They'd abuse them.

[Jamastiene]

91. Are you just upset that it cannot become an aardvark?

Give it time. I'm sure science will catch up to your particular, er, wish.

:shrug:

[fishwax]

241. it may in the future be a person or it may not

That it cannot become any other species doesn't mean that it will necessarily ever be a person.

[salinen]

247. 99 times out of 100

it becomes a person. Close enough.

[fishwax]

256. there are all kinds of things that can keep it from becoming a person

Miscarriage, stillbirth, death of the mother, abortion, etc. I don't think that 99 out of 100 fetuses become people, and even though the risk of miscarriage drops at the fetus stage, it's still not unusual in the first few weeks of that stage. In the earlier stages of development, the risk of miscarriage is even higher ...

[ZombieHorde]

287. The miscarry rate is actually much higher...

Miscarriage is the loss of a pregnancy in the first 20 weeks. About 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, and more than 80 percent of these losses happen before 12 weeks.

This doesn't include situations in which you lose a fertilized egg before you get a positive pregnancy test. Studies have found that 30 to 50 percent of fertilized eggs are lost before a woman finds out she's pregnant, because they're lost so early that she goes on to get her period about on time -- in other words the woman doesn't realize she was pregnant at all.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_understanding-miscarriage_252.bc

So 50 to 70 times out of 100 it becomes a person.

[Ignis]

264. Erwin Schrödinger is spinning in his grave.

:thumbsdown:

[JerseygirlCT]

272. It's a future person only if the person whose

life is necessary for it to become a future person wishes it so.

[Renew Deal]

66. How is the fetus not a "future person?"

Aside from the rights issue. It is a future person. :shrug:

[SidDithers]

73. There is no "aside from the rights issue"...

the "rights issue" is the only issue when it comes to reproductive choice.

Sid

[Renew Deal]

74. Yes, but reproductive choice is separate from biology.

That's my point. I think you're making this distinction because it's convenient, not because it's factual.

[SidDithers]

86. I was under the impression we were discussing reproductive freedom...

and abortion rights. :shrug:

The rights of the pregnant woman must always be paramount. If rights conferred upon a fetus ever take precedence over the rights of the woman, then she becomes nothing more than an nonconsenting incubator-slave.

As I said upthread, one of the ways that abortion opponents are trying to chip away at a woman's right to choose, is by pushing the concept of fetus rights. I maintain that it is a woman's absolute right what she does with her own body, and, until a fetus becomes a person, whatever "rights" it might have are always subordinate to the woman's rights. "Future person" are weasel words, intended to equalize the status of the fetus and the woman carrying it. That equalization, again to me, is part of a dangerous slippery slope which leads to the lessening of a woman's rights to the sanctity of her own person.

Sid

[salinen]

111. my intentions were to ponder fetus rights

not take away a womens rights. Can we not have both?

[tekisui]

124. Sure, but the woman's rights must ALWAYS trump the fetus.

[salinen]

134. That's a feeling you have.

It could be just as appropriate to say that a fetus's rights must always trump the womans'. I'm just trying to make sense out of all of this for myself. Everybody should do whatever is appropriate for them.

[tekisui]

140. Ridiculous.

The sense is easy to make. A woman is a person. The only question is whether she should have access and the right to make decisions concerning her body.

If you support that right, abortion should be 100% safe and legal, protected for every woman at every age for any reason.

If you do not support that right, I have no more to say to you.

[salinen]

147. K

The sense is easy to make. A fetus is a living being. The only question is whether the fetus should have any rights at all.

If you support fetus rights, the fetus should be protected at every stage of development.

If you do not support that right, I have no more to say to you.

Why is this not valid?

[Scout]

172. it is a legal impossibility to give a fetus rights without impinging on the woman's rights

fetus = inside a person's body

woman /= inside a person's body

[salinen]

175. And vice versa

complicated ain't it?

[Scout]

191. there is no reason a fetus needs or requires "rights" n/t

[SidDithers]

181. A fetus is not a living being...

In utero, it is no more than part of the woman's body. It exists only with the continued consent of the woman carrying it. If she chooses, she has the right to withdraw that consent, and end her pregnancy.

The "fetus rights" argument will always end with women losing the right to make their own medical decisions. Just as we'd be abhorred by forced sterilization, we should be equally abhorred by forced maternity.

"Fetus rights" is absolutely a talking point of the anti-abortion crowd, and should be fought every time it's mentioned.

Sid

[ohheckyeah]

178. That's the problem.

You are trying to make sense out of something that is merely hypothetical for you. The decision to have an abortion isn't hypothetical, it isn't made apart from the circumstances of the situation. You can try and figure this all out but you have no idea what you would really do if you were a woman who found herself dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. It's rather like a 13 year old taking a vow to be abstinent never having dealt with the temptations of the flesh and hormones.

[SidDithers]

127. They're competing interests...

so I find it difficult to promote both. IMO, the woman's rights must always be paramount.

Sid

[salinen]

92. Well put

that's what I was trying to say, only you did it better.

[Scout]

171. it is not guaranteed to become a person....

it has the potential to become a person.

[Kalyke]

76. Because it may not live.

And I mean it may not live as a result of some medical issue outside of induced abortion.

It may abort on its own. It may die in-utero. It may stop developing and need to be medically taken.

In those cases, it isn't a future person.

[Renew Deal]

80. Yes, there are never any guarantees in life.

I think the original argument that the fetus is a future person and not a future aardvark is reasonable.

[winyanstaz]

204. Not every child born has a functioning brain...or body parts etc...

and so will not live anyways.
Yogas believe the soul does not enter the body (through the soft spot on the top of the baby's skull) until around the time the placenta loosens on the wall of the womb. This is the same place the soul is seen to be leaving the body at the time of death (science has weighed bodies dying and there is a slight weight loss as the soul leaves/time of death)
The fetus is a vehicle for the soul. Only a vehicle until the soul enters. If the soul cannot enter for whatever reason it will go find another vehicle/body that will best offer the chance for the lessons that soul has come to learn.
As I am also a practicing Yoga (among other paths) and also believe that as a child I remembered pieces and parts of past lives...I believe this as well.
So therefor...in my opinion, it is only your belief that a fetus is a future human being and not a proven fact.

[piratefish08]

14. wow. "Who the fuck am I? The decider?"

You seem to have no problem 'deciding' on behalf of every female faced with a decision regarding abortion.

[NightWatcher]

15. feel how you want to, just dont force your opinion onto any woman

like you said, you are not more important

[salinen]

29. I would never want my opinion

to go anywhere. I will never fight for or against abortion rights.

[Barack_America]

16. Sure. Pregnancy carries far more risk to the life of a woman than does abortion.

So in denying woman abortions, particularly those with known health risks, you would be sentencing many of those women to death.

There's also the not small matter of ectopic pregnancies where, if the pregnancy is not aborted, the mother has a VERY high likelihood of death.

You feel okay with that?

And, FYI, you are not responsible for the choices that any one else makes, so maybe it's just best to leave other people's decisions up to them, no?

[salinen]

24. This really takes the argument into a different area

but I am with you on complications of pregnancy. Mostly though, people have healthy babies.

[Barack_America]

56. No, it really doesn't.

A large number of abortions are performed on women who would be at severe risk to continue the pregnancy. This has nothing to do with the health of the fetus, this has to do with whether you would sacrifice a woman for a fetus.

[salinen]

88. Mom vs. Fetus

Wow! That's where it gets complicated.

[Sal Minella]

17. If you were female, raped, and pregnant

you might flog your logic through its paces and arrive at a very different conclusion.

[salinen]

33. That's different

And doesn't happen too often. But in that case the mother should decide.

[Tailormyst]

59. Does she need to report the rape within a certain time frame to the police?

Or would her word be good enough?

[Barack_America]

62. Sounds like your anti-abortion legislation is already getting mighty complicated.

Maybe it would be best to just leave the decision up to women and their doctors?

And, FYI, it happens much more commonly than you think. Last month I did an OB/GYN rotation and saw about 8 patients who were opting for an abortion. Of those 8 women, 2 had been raped and 2 had serious medical contraindications for pregnancy.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

75. Doesn't happen too often? W....T....F????

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, more than 260,000 rapes or sexual assaults occurred in 2000; 246,180 of them occurred among females and 14,770, among males (Department of Justice 2001).

In 2000, nearly 88,000 children in the United States experienced sexual abuse (ACF 2002).

Females ages 12 to 24 are at the greatest risk for experiencing a rape or sexual assault (DOJ 2001).

More than half of all rapes of women occur before age 18; 22% occur before age 12. (Full Report of the Prevalance, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)

The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.

These stats don't even take into account the thousands and thousands of rapes that go unreported.

There are a plethora of statistics that say you are full of shit.

:mad:

[salinen]

94. Damn!

This country is sick.

[Tailormyst]

201. Yes and so are those who want to regulate my reproductive health

And THAT comes from the product of a RAPE who would STILL stand behind any female who felt abortion was the necessary choice for her.

[winyanstaz]

206. good post...thank you :)

[Lorien]

254. Indeed. I didn't report it when it happened to me because law enforcement

and the courts in my city tend to treat rape victims like criminals. :grr:

[Kalyke]

78. She's not a "mother" in that circumstance. She's a victim or

a survivor of crime.

She's not a mother.

[BurtWorm]

102. Why is that different? Isn't the fetus that results from incestuous rape 'another life form?'

Randall Terry would be very disappointed in your wobbliness over this...

[salinen]

113. Right

that fetus should have as many rights as a fetus from a loving relationship.

[PeaceNikki]

209. Bullshit. So a woman's privacy doesn't mean shit?

She has to "justify" her decision by divulging personal info? To whom? The doctor? An abortion panel?

This whole thread is stupid and you're opinion is offensive, short-sighted and frankly, wrong.

[fishwax]

244. how is it different? n/t

[PassingFair]

18. Better get your unconscious sperm into a fertility clinic!

There are women in India that will bear your child for
$5,000...who are YOU to stop the future of the human
race?


http://www.geocities.com/preconceivedbabies/index.html

Oh, and no more masturbation for YOU, young man!

And think of what a boon to the funeral business it will
be now that miscarriages will have to be treated
as deaths.

Can I have your address so I can send you my used
tampons so you can have them checked for dead things?

I am glad that you are "pro-life"...if you ever get
pregnant, I am happy that you have the choice to
carry through to birth.

[johnnie]

"why should I have a say whether another life form gets to live or die"

Yup

[Tailormyst]

20. I suggest that when you get pregnant you use your choice to carry the pregnancy then.

See how easy that is? My choice, your choice. Choice is good. Privacy is good. Treating women like adults is good.

[brewens]

21. The one thing you never hear anybody say about abortion.

How much money it actually saves us sometimes. If a girl/woman that really has nothing going for her and gets pregnant by a total loser has an abortion, it saves us a fortune. At least potentially. Sure, she could get her act together and end up being able to raise the kid without any help, but not often enough.
You never hear a woman talk about having an abortion like it was a positive experience, but it is the best choice sometimes. I'm glad I was never involved in that situation (that I know of). Having been something of a loser at one time when I was younger I wouldn't be totally surprised to find out that a girl had to do that.
I just think women should do what they think they need to do.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Urban Prairie]

22. I refuse to read one solid block of text

Regardless of the subject matter.

[blondeatlast]

28. +1. nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. +1 n/t

[sharesunited]

23. Being pro life is not inconsistent with respecting reproductive choice.

The main political aspect of abortion is subjecting it to the criminal code at any point in a pregnancy.

[salinen]

42. Thank you shares

I do respect reproductive choice.

[Arugula Latte]

26. I find it arrogant of you to think you have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

So, unless you have a uterus, shut the fuck up, please.

[Stevenmarc]

27. "I am not more important"

Which makes it fairly easy to dismiss you, but thanks for playing.

[Solly Mack]

31. What a relief it must be then to know you don't get to make that decision for others.

It can be a very humbling experience to realize that what we think is irrelevant to how other people live their lives or the choices they make.

[salinen]

58. Yes indeed

cheers.

[neverforget]

34. Then don't have an abortion. Nevermind. You're a man so don't tell women

what they can and can't do with their body.

[justanaverageguy]

35. I think that......

Wait a minute. I'm merely a man. My opinion on the subject holds no validity whatsoever. Unless of course my opinion is the same as every woman who has posted one in this thread. Then maybe it would be held in high regard.

It's amazing to me that on a message board that saw so many women berate a teacher because he had the audacity to teach his male students that it is polite and proper to open the door for a woman (when the same courtesy is not necessarily owed to a man), that we would see one's opinion on a subject be held in such total disregard because of his gender. That by definition is sexist.

[salinen]

43. Thanks justanaverageguy

Now I'm thinking you're not justanaverageguy.

[Kalyke]

81. The reason why men should be pro-choice is quite simple, average guy.

You don't have to bear the child. You don't have to "give up" your body for nine months. Hell, you don't even have to raise it or take care of it. Sure, you may be "obliged" to provide child support, but that doesn't mean you will on a consistent basis, if at all - and the states are so strapped, they probably can't even arrest you for non-payment.

You are just "merely" a man, and, I'm sorry, but biology gave women the upper hand in this particular argument. It's not sexist. It's just that we women have the "plumbing" for this decision and you don't. Plain and simple. Talk to God, Allah, Yahweh, Mother Gaia, Darwin or whomever you worship or believe in if you don't like it. Not that it will change anything.

FWIW, I won't force you to have prostrate exams if you won't force me to birth children. I'd never dream of telling you what to do with your sexual organs.

[justanaverageguy]

125. I totally get what you are saying

it's a perfect reason why women are much more passionate on this subject than men. For men, it is mostly an intellectual exercise with only limited basis in reality. For women it is VERY Real. Women have much more skin in the game so to speak. I agree with everything you say in your response except for "It's not sexist".

To completely and utterly disregard someone's opinion based ENTIRELY upon their gender is by definition sexist. I have no problem discounting someone's opinion because of their lack of experience in a given topic (including the op). That is done all the time by everyone. But a response like "STFU Your a man!!" is completely sexist. And yes someone in this thread said just that. By that logic the Supreme Court should have never issued an opinion in Roe vs Wade because they were all men. I should have no opinion on the Catholic Church's stance on birth control....I'm not Catholic.....I should have no opinion on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.......I'm not neither Israeli or Palestinian......You should have no opinion on the draft or selective service.........you're not a man. I don't like that kind of logic. I'm guessing you don't either.

Prostate exams involve my sexual organs? ummmmmmmm.......I like your way of thinking!! LOL!!!

[winyanstaz]

205. good post..thanks :)

[MineralMan]

190. The teacher was wrong.

What is polite is to hold the door for anyone following closely behind you or if you reach the door at roughly the same time. Whether either person is a man or woman is irrelevant. Women may hold doors for men, too, and often do.

[DefenseLawyer]

37. What does OMF mean?

Oh my fetus? Ouch, my foot?

[salinen]

44. One man's folly

[JDPriestly]

38. Freedom of choice does not require anyone to abort a fetus.

It is a choice. If you are a man, you may not understand this, but there can be lots of medical and non-medical reasons for aborting a fetus.

One common medical reason is a tubal pregnancy. A fetus forms in the wrong part of the mother's body. If it is not aborted, both mother and fetus are at mortal risk. There are lots of other physical grounds for aborting a baby -- other situations in which the lives of the mother and/or baby are at such great risk that an abortion is the best decision.

In situations like that, only the mother and her doctor should be involved in the decision.

Some women choose to abort a fetus for psychological reasons. The human baby requires an incredible amount of care and nurture -- both psychological and physical in the first years. It is easy for people to say they oppose abortions for psychological reasons, but I ask those who do, "What are you willing to do to help the women who become pregnant and cannot deal with the practical or psychological burdens of pregnancy?" Some women just are not able to deal with the problems of motherhood.

If you oppose abortion, are you willing to pay higher taxes in order to pay the costs of early childcare for low-income working women? Are you willing to pay for psychological counseling for women who cannot handle pregnancy or the thought of having a child? Are you willing to adopt the child of a 12-year-old who has a baby due to rape? Are you willing to help a college student get her own apartment so that she can move out of her dormitory and take care of a baby?

If you oppose abortion, put your money and your time into taking some of the responsibility for the babies that you will force women to have.

It is easy to espouse pro-life, but it is very difficult to take care of all the unwanted babies on the earth.

Nature produces far more seeds, far more life than it can support. Nature knows this and lets most seeds, most life die. That is the very sad truth.

One of the reasons that animals are so vulnerable to extinction today is that the human population has grown almost without bounds. Saving lives and valuing life is wonderful. But human life would have no value in a world with far too many people. That is the sad truth. If we extend life-spans through medicine, through human intervention. We also have to intervene to limit the number of births through medicine.

[salinen]

47. I know

There are definitely too many humans on earth. How to limit this out of control number is an interesting subject. At which end would it make the most sense? Before birth? Elderly? Invalids, Criminals. All worthy of discussion.

[MineralMan]

87. I have a solution for you that will ease your mind on all these counts.

Have a vasectomy at once. That way, no fetus with you as the father will ever be aborted, and you'll do your part toward reducing the population grown on this planet.

See? All your dilemmas solve with one stroke of the scalpel. Well, two, I guess.

You needn't thank me.

[salinen]

114. Sorry to dissapoint you

Thanks.

[philly_bob]

39. You're welcome to your opinion. Do you want government to enforce it? n/t

[salinen]

50. No!

It's only an opinion. This law only applies to me.

[Maru Kitteh]

60. A law for you alone! Excellent! We're here for you when you get pregnant.

You can count on us.

[philly_bob]

141. OK. As men, our main responsibility is to avoid fathering unwanted children.

That is, we must take responsibility for ensuring that birth control is used when children are not wanted.

Your OP seemed to be judging other people's decisions, that's what provoked anger.

[asdjrocky]

41. Dude, you're a dude, shut up.

[Arugula Latte]

49. Thank you, asdjrocky

:thumbsup:

[salinen]

53. Dude, you're right.

I'm shutin up.

[RainDog]

51. don't want an abortion? don't have one

and don't you dare try to force childbirth on women for some insidiously stupid argument like this.

[earth mom]

52. It's NOT about you. It's about a pregnant woman deciding for herself what she wants.

Control freaks like you need to understand it is NOT about what you yourself think or want-but what we each decide for ourselves.

[MattBaggins]

54. I'll fire... I am pro-CHOICE

That is a great and wonderful conclusion for YOU to make. YOU are free to do with YOUR body as YOU wish. I have no problem as long as YOU stay out of OTHER PEOPLES decisions in the matter.

M'kay?

[tammywammy]

57. +1 n/t

[tammywammy]

55. If you don't like abortion don't have one

But stay the hell out of my uterus.

[salinen]

63. O.K.

That's not to say that you don't have a fine uterus.

[RainDog]

why, yes, it is entirely fine. and mine. n/t

[Renew Deal]

64. It takes guts to post that here

And there are many anti-choice people on this site. Most of them don't say anything. I understand your argument and it is logical. What others will bring up is that a woman has a right to control her body.

[Kalyke]

84. Because we do.

If the government ever forces women to give birth because the fetus is a "future person," I think we should class-action sue on the grounds that allowing a fetus to control a woman is a violation of the 13th Amendment against involuntary servitude:

Involuntary servitude - Refers to a person held by actual force, threats of force, or threats of legal coercion in a condition of slavery – compulsory service or labor against his or her will. This also includes the condition in which people are compelled to work against their will by a "climate of fear" evoked by the use of force, the threat of force, or the threat of legal coercion (i.e., suffer legal consequences unless compliant with demands made upon them) which is sufficient to compel service against a person's will. The first U.S. Supreme Court case to uphold the ban against involuntary servitude was Bailey v. Alabama (1911).

Requiring specific performance as a remedy for breach of personal services contracts has been understood to be a form of involuntary servitude.<15>

Forced labor - Labor or service obtained by:

* threats of serious harm or physical restraint;
* any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause a person to believe they would suffer serious harm or physical restraint if they did not perform such labor or services:
* the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process.

[salinen]

97. Ah!

couldn't an argument be made that it is also the fetus which is being violated and should have 13th amendment rights? We give "birthed" beings all the rights.

[ohheckyeah]

186. I believe that Roe v. Wade should have

been decided on the basis of the 13th Amendment.

[salinen]

96. Yes

My asshole feels raw.

[chrisa]

67. Humans are endangered in the sense that we're in danger

of overpopulating the planet. Abortion and good birth control will prevent this.

[salinen]

98. Beside the point

But I agree.

[Maru Kitteh]

68. Your flypaper rawks rocks dude!

Nice work!

[nemo137]

69. What about the woman who's already living her life on earth?

Why are you treating fetuses as something other than and greater than humans?

ETA: This is what people mean when they talk about male privilege, dude. You get to sit there and think "herp a derp, babies are an endangered species," without ever running the risk of becoming pregnant, without there being an organized movement dedicated to removing control of your body from you should you become pregnant. It's all fine and peachy for you to sit around and philosophize, but there are actual human beings involved, who's most basic rights are being threatened - and yours (and, to be honest since I'm a guy as well, mine) aren't.

[redqueen]

85. Thank you... (nt)

*sigh*

[salinen]

100. That's all this is

One dude philosophizing out loud. No harmful intentions at all. I came here to get others opinions, not to start a war.

[Iggo]

105. "Fire away" is no way to "not start a war." (n/t)

[Yurovsky]

112. You wore pork-chop underpants through the dog pound...

and are surprised you got bit???

C'mon, abortion rights/reproductive rights/women's rights are central tenets to the progressive movement. It'd be like saying "Fuck Jesus" at the GOP convention. You can't attack a central pillar of what Democrats stand for and expect to get a pat on the back for sharing your "diverse" opinion.

I think if someone came on DU and said "I'm not sure about all this race mingling", they might get a similar response. Next time you might want to keep that opinion to yourself (JMHO).

[salinen]

119. I'm not surprised at all.

In fact, that's why I posted this. I want to hear good arguments against this position. I knew there would be friction, but I wanted to hear that too. Mostly, these are the ramblings of a white middle aged male who should keep his opinion to himself. But what's wrong with discussing this issue? I will never become militant on this issue. In fact, I fine with Roe v Wade. This is more theory or philosophy to me.

[Yurovsky]

136. OK, fine...

I'm glad you realized what you were in for. Didn't mean to be a dick about it, it's just something I'm pretty committed to (having had to support women in such a predicament before). It's not an easy decision, and it certainly wasn't my decision, but I figured my place was to be supportive regardless.

Good luck with the thread...

[ohheckyeah]

193. And that's the problem

with figuring it out. It will always be theory or philosophy to you since you can't become pregnant. Life isn't about theories and philosophies, it's about living with circumstances and making decisions based on those circumstances.

[salinen]

215. Should discussing them

be off limits? Some here want to castrate me.

[ohheckyeah]

230. No, I don't think it's off limits, but

I think you were deliberately provocative in the way you stated your case and I have a question about what it is you were trying to accomplish. It came across as a back handed way to call people who believe in choice arrogant and even carried an air of trying to shame people.

I don't want to castrate you but occurs to me that if you were it might save some woman from having to make a choice about whether or not to abort a pregnancy. :P

[salinen]

255. yeah I guess I feel pretty strong

that because we all want life for ourselves, that we should extend that desire to all other life forms, especially human, because we relate in a more direct way to humanness. I have friends who are pro-life. I have friends that are pro-choice. Should I make a decision which way I fall and exclude the others from my life? In a way, I voted on abortion by voting for my representative and senator and president. They are all pro-choice. But I can also feel damn bad for those fetuses. Some comments on this subject I'd say are leaning toward a position that the fetus is the enemy. Mothers who have aborted fetuses or zygotes are not horrible. And neither is the fetus or zygote.

[PeaceNikki]

257. Go read your OP.

Every single word of it comes from a place of judgement. It's condescending and disingenuous for you to play it off like you're not being that way. Read it again.

You imply that anyone who has an abortion cannot possibly value life. That they are "deciders" who are "playing God". That they are arrogant for fucking with "fate".

I call shenanigans. You're changing your story because DU is giving you shit for this judgmental OP.

[salinen]

263. I am not.

I might be considering all options because this is a really charged subject. Just the word "pro-life" makes peoples blood boil. No, I would not abort my pregnancy if I could get pregnant. At least not at this stage of my thinking. And forget the rape/incest model for a moment. That organism should have some importance, partly because it needs humans to give it considerations. It cannot give itself any power. Just as endangered life must somewhat relay on human interest, so must the pre-human. We are all highly developed fetuses. Or maybe I am judgmental, condescending, arrogant, and disingenuous.

[PeaceNikki]

266. Here's where I bring up something that's already been addressed.

You're a man and will NEVER EVER be in the situation where you have to decide for yourself. Ever. It's super easy to sit on your moral high-ground and take your super ethical stance... until your faced with daunting and horrible circumstances.

There's an article you should read here: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html. It's stories of anti-choice protesters who end up in clinics having abortions. Some change their entire lives, some remain hypocritical fuckwits.

The difference between you and those women is that in all the days of your life you will never ever EVER have something growing inside of you that you did not intend. Something that is a potential life that you will be responsible for. You will never be faced with the personal decision. Women are fertile for about FOUR DECADES and spend the majority of that trying NOT to become pregnant. Shit happens, and reproductive choice is a necessity. For society's sake.

Men can have an opinion on this, but they are in no position to regulate, legislate, judge or lecture on the topic.

Fuck that.

[salinen]

273. This is totally

opinion. We could change the subject to an elderly parent who has dementia. Elderly people with dementia have no memory, life experiences are gone, they cannot fend for themselves, yet, as a society, we mostly must allow them and even help them live. I think fetuses are somewhat in a similar situation as the elderly with dementia, only, the fetus can snap out it and begin to function, given some time.

[PeaceNikki]

275. I have no idea WTF you were responding to. At least you're consistent in making ZERO sense.

A fetus doesn't magically "snap out of" shit. They develop inside of a woman's body. Pregnancy is a health-risk to the woman to become a viable person. A zygote/fetus is a potential person, not an actual person. If A can become B then A is NOT B.

Whatever, you go be "pro-life" if that makes you sleep better at night. Meanwhile I will call you out when you try to get all sanctimonious and judgmental about how moral you are and would never make a decision with which you'd never be faced. :thumbsup:

[ohheckyeah]

262. No, the fetus isn't the enemy but sometimes

it can almost feel that way. Emotions are complex things and people feel what they feel, and anyone who is terribly unhappy about a pregnancy shouldn't have a child. Quality of life is as important or more so than just existence.

About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is probably much higher because many miscarriages occur so early in pregnancy that a woman doesn't even know she's pregnant. Most miscarriages occur because the fetus isn't developing normally. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/miscarriage/DS01105

Mother nature can be a bitch. Whose to say that women who make the choice of abortion don't subconsciously know something is wrong? And whose to say that fetuses who are carried by women who are frightened, physically ill, or emotionally unready for a child wouldn't affect the fetus adversely? Lots of questions, but few answers.

[salinen]

265. Wow

that's interesting. I'm going to chew on this for awhile.

[ohheckyeah]

290. I had two pregnancies go bad.

One I miscarried at 2 months, the other at 3 months. Funny thing is, I knew something was wrong within 2 weeks of getting pregnant. I ended up never having children and having to have a hysterectomy. It turned out that for health reasons it really was a good thing I never carried those 2 fetuses to term. I have nieces and nephews I adore but I couldn't have handled motherhood.

When my sister in law had her last child, she insisted they do a c-section. To be honest, we thought it was because she didn't want to go through labor as she doesn't deal well with pain. When her son was born by c-section the cord was wrapped around his neck about 4 times....his umbilical cord was terribly long and the doctor said he may have died if she hadn't had the c-section. How did she know? I don't know how I knew something was wrong with my pregnancies, but I did.

I'm willing to trust women to make the right decision even if I don't understand it.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

70. The simple fact is if you take away a persons private choice the zealots will come after condoms...

making just about anything a woman does illegal, next thing you know they're talking about witches again. It's a matter of moving forward or backward. There are ways to encourage people to have less abortions, by awareness campaigns but to remove that choice is a trip all the way down the rabbit hole.

[salinen]

103. Yep

But in theory, I must consider the "waiting to be born mass of cells" too. Moms and babies and fetuses and whales and baby whales and whale fetuses. Hey, should we protect whale fetuses?

[salinen]

104. Yep

But in theory, I must consider the "waiting to be born mass of cells" too. Moms and babies and fetuses and whales and baby whales and whale fetuses. Hey, should we protect whale fetuses?

[cali]

77. You're a man. and this arrogant dog shit.

[jgraz]

79. I'm pro-whitespace. I refuse to read your post on principle.

[Jamastiene]

89. THIS is your argument?

"They can never become aardvarks!"

Oooooo-kay.

:yoiks:

[salinen]

106. You're right

Somehow, someway, scientists can probably turn a human fetus into an aardvark.

[BurtWorm]

93. Many of your assumptions are flawed and your logic is tortured.

1) the animals haven't a chance of survival without human intervention. It's impossible for these dwindling populations of animals to possibly come back unless there are efforts by humans to intercede...


Homo sapiens, as you know, have been on the planet for just about 200,000 years. We've really only been in a position to intervene (or even to care to intervene) in the fates of endangered animals for a tiny fraction of that time. We know this is true every time we discover a new species never before described. Clearly we are not the sole factor in whether other species live or die out. Even endangered species can come back from the brink if some factor in their environment changes to favor their survival. That factor can be anything, from an introduction of a new species to a change in climate.


2) And if I want to protect endangered animals, why wouldn't I be interested in protecting other life forms, even if they were not endangered?

Your flawed assumption, implicit in this rhetorical question, is that any life form, because it is a life form, needs 'protecting' of some kind. Nonendangered species are just as capable of surviving as without human intervention as endangered species are.

3) <Fetuses> are only able, with our help, to become conscious adult human beings. In fact, they have no choice. They will always become humans.


Unless they die before birth or develop with a deformed brain.


4) why should I have a say whether another life form gets to live or die?

Your whole argument seems to rest precisely on your say in whether another life form gets to live or die. Isn't that what 'pro-life' means? You believe it's wrong to decide to terminate a pregnancy. Aren't you expressing an interest in whether another life form gets to live or die?


6) that fetus, in my opinion, only has one chance and that is to live a single life on earth.


Unless it dies before it's born.

[salinen]

107. Alright

1) the animals haven't a chance of survival without human intervention. It's impossible for these dwindling populations of animals to possibly come back unless there are efforts by humans to intercede...


Homo sapiens, as you know, have been on the planet for just about 200,000 years. We've really only been in a position to intervene (or even to care to intervene) in the fates of endangered animals for a tiny fraction of that time. We know this is true every time we discover a new species never before described. Clearly we are not the sole factor in whether other species live or die out. Even endangered species can come back from the brink if some factor in their environment changes to favor their survival. That factor can be anything, from an introduction of a new species to a change in climate. BUT MOSTLY, HUMANS ARE THE GREATEST THREAT TO ALL LIFE ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AT A POINT WHERE WE THREATEN THE SURVIVAL OF LIFE ITSELF.


2) And if I want to protect endangered animals, why wouldn't I be interested in protecting other life forms, even if they were not endangered?

Your flawed assumption, implicit in this rhetorical question, is that any life form, because it is a life form, needs 'protecting' of some kind. Nonendangered species are just as capable of surviving as without human intervention as endangered species are. I'M ONLY SAYING THAT LIFE DESERVES RESPECT, ENDANGERED OR NOT. THE EXTINCTION RATE DUE TO HUMAN ACTIVITIES IS THE MAIN REASON. IF WE DON'T CREATE NON-FISHING ZONES, HAVE HUMANS PROTECTING ANIMALS FROM POCHERS, AND SET ASIDE AREAS FOR THE HOPEFUL SURVIVAL OF SPECIES, THEY "ALMOST" DON'T STAND A CHANCE.

3) <Fetuses> are only able, with our help, to become conscious adult human beings. In fact, they have no choice. They will always become humans.


Unless they die before birth or develop with a deformed brain. ADULT HUMANS CAN ALSO DEVELOP A DEFORMED BRAIN, OR DIE.


4) why should I have a say whether another life form gets to live or die?

Your whole argument seems to rest precisely on your say in whether another life form gets to live or die. Isn't that what 'pro-life' means? You believe it's wrong to decide to terminate a pregnancy. Aren't you expressing an interest in whether another life form gets to live or die? I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS.


6) that fetus, in my opinion, only has one chance and that is to live a single life on earth.


Unless it dies before it's born. MOST FETUSES LIVE AND GET BORN. WHY FOCUS ON STILLBIRTHS.

[BurtWorm]

126. Responses

BUT MOSTLY, HUMANS ARE THE GREATEST THREAT TO ALL LIFE ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AT A POINT WHERE WE THREATEN THE SURVIVAL OF LIFE ITSELF.


And you want to make it harder to make fewer of us? You don't want to give us the option of being in control of our own reproduction?



I'M ONLY SAYING THAT LIFE DESERVES RESPECT, ENDANGERED OR NOT. THE EXTINCTION RATE DUE TO HUMAN ACTIVITIES IS THE MAIN REASON. IF WE DON'T CREATE NON-FISHING ZONES, HAVE HUMANS PROTECTING ANIMALS FROM POCHERS, AND SET ASIDE AREAS FOR THE HOPEFUL SURVIVAL OF SPECIES, THEY "ALMOST" DON'T STAND A CHANCE.

See my questions to you above.


ADULT HUMANS CAN ALSO DEVELOP A DEFORMED BRAIN, OR DIE.

Yes. That's life.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS.

I'm saying your rhetorical question is disingenuous. You do want a say in whether other beings live or die. Your question exhibits false humility. Who are you to say whether women should or shouldn't terminate their pregnancies?

MOST FETUSES LIVE AND GET BORN. WHY FOCUS ON STILLBIRTHS.

Because stillbirths present a serious problem to the right to life argument, as does the fact that possibly 70% (according to some estimates) of all zygotes never even survive long enough to implant in the uterus. It almost looks as though nature doesn't want us to reproduce. It throws all sorts of roadblocks in our way. And once we're born, it's not such a picnic for a huge portion of our species either. Pro-lifers think of the Western model as though it's the human model. But the Western model is not sustainable for every person on the planet. Far from it. The Western model, which makes each human life extremely expensive, is why all life is endangered, as you say.

[fl_dem]

99. well hell

You should take better care of your sperm, if you do not trust it's fate with whomever you are depositing them with, then wear a condom!

[TheWraith]

101. Okay... what the FUCK was THAT?

I'd like some soup to go with that word salad.

[Javaman]

146. I know, that was the most bizarre case of; run on stream of conscious

buffoonery, I have ever seen.

[krabigirl]

108. So you are for forced birthing? go away

[salinen]

139. no

pro-life for me only.

[KamaAina]

109. Are you submitting this to The Onion?

:wtf:

[bamacrat]

115. With that logic all sperm and eggs should be saved due to the fact they are "future humans"

So every time a man masturbates or uses a condom or pulls out or doesnt get the woman pregnant, or a woman takes birth control they are controlling the possibility of future life. Deciding to not create life can happen at many times. If a fetus can survive without machines outside of the womb I feel it is then a viable human. If it is a parents choice to hook a pre-mature fetus up to machines to recreate the womb that is their choice.

But a man should have no real say on abortion. Its the womans body.

[dysfunctional press]

116. "and how the animals haven't a chance of survival without human intervention..."

actually, without human intervention- they wouldn't be endangered or threatened in the first place. :shrug:

[bamacrat]

118. You are a million percent right...where are all the Buffalo?

Etc.

[cherokeeprogressive]

117. Welcome to persona non grata-hood. While you are allowed to think whatever you like,

you are only allowed to communicate certain things, and that isn't one of them.

[salinen]

122. Actually

I can communicate anything. You, I guess will not listen. That's o.k. But I'll listen to you.

[SidDithers]

128. Who is not allowing you to communicate certain other things?...

your ideas and opinions may be challenged, but you're not prevented from expressing them.

Sid

[cherokeeprogressive]

130. You are quite correct.

Allow was the wrong word to use. I stand by the spirit of my post though, and that is certain things are better kept to yourself. Witness those who replied to his rant as if he were forcing his opinion on someone, or forcing them to act in one way or another.

[pipi_k]

123. Hey, nothing wrong with being "Pro Life"

As long as you're only "Pro Life" for any potential fetuses you might carry.

It's always a personal choice.

[salinen]

135. Right

this is for my fetus only. And I'm a Man.

[pipi_k]

144. So you're a man...

You're still entitled to your opinion. If men can have opinions for Pro Choice, they can have opinions against it, but that's as far as it should go.



I dunno...I thought I was being fair. Not beating up on you. But it seems like you want to pick a fight with everyone, whether they agree with you or not...


I hope that's not the case...


:shrug:

[salinen]

151. I just trying to be understood

some people are getting it. That this is a theoretical and philosophical exercise. What the details of childbirth or rape or incest or retardation or choice or motherhood are aside from the basic premise. But it's hard to keep emotions out of this subject.

[Starry Messenger]

129. Well, get to work on a uterine replicator.

What's stopping you? BTW, women also only have one chance at life. Maybe they should get the chance to live it the way they see fit.

[salinen]

137. My uterine replicator

failed. But, it works great as a quisinart.

[walldude]

133. "Pro-Life" Means you think that everyone else should

subscribe to your way of thinking. Is your logic so irrefutable that you demand everyone be pro-life? If not you are pro-choice.

[salinen]

138. I know

Another word is needed. I am very refutable.

[Zoeisright]

154. Pro life means nosy, stupid, uneducated, full of yourself, and deluded.

[Duer 157099]

142. I'd like to add a perspective that I don't think I've ever heard

There are MILLIONS of human beings on this planet who would most certainly not be here now if their mother had NOT terminated a prior pregnancy.

I personally know a handful of such people, and I know without any doubt that this is true. So I can extrapolate it out to a reasonable ballpark figure of MILLIONS.

Why? There could be several reasons, such as had the prior pregnancy gone to term, that child would have impacted the live(s) of the parents such that no further offspring would have been created by that couple. Or, the simple timeframe itself would have made it absolutely impossible (let's say somebody gets pregnant a few months after a prior termination--trust me, it happens).

So, tell me how you look all those MILLIONS of people in the eye and tell them that if you had it your way, they would have never been born? These aren't fetuses, these are birthed and grown human beings, people who will understand what you are saying when you declare that they should not exist.

[salinen]

156. This is exactly why I started this thread

But, all these millions come after the first fetus was aborted. That fetus is not responsible for future abortions. Why, because there are too many variables and not all of them are tragic.

[Duer 157099]

164. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say there

But my point goes like this:

Find a woman, even a so-called pro-lifer, who has had an abortion, and then subsequently had children. Ask her if she thinks that her current children would have been conceived/born if she HAD NOT had the prior abortion. Then ask her if she regrets having had the abortion if she realizes that her CURRENT LIVING CHILDREN would not have existed. Just try it. I'll tell you what she'll say. She'll say that while she regrets having made that decision, there is NO WAY that given the opportunity to do it again, that she'd choose differently, because that would mean that she would not have her current children.

Sometimes things just happen because they are supposed to, for whatever reason.

[salinen]

173. You're too deep

This is simpler. In order to argue this as intended, let's say we cannot think of the consequences of the birth. This argument ends with the sperm and egg combining. Is this thing worthwhile? Should it be given rights? Is it more or less important than a squirrel?

[Duer 157099]

182. I hear you, but it is not simple nor simpler.

You are asking the equivalent of whether God can create a stone larger than he can lift.

The fact is that you DO, every single day of your life, choose which life ends and which continues. You DO assign a relative value to the lives of various species (do you wash your hands with anti-bacterial soap, for example? Step on any insects as you walk through life? I assure you that you do.)

So then it becomes a question of consciousness--that if you are unaware of doing such, it's not as bad. Really? To whom? The victim, or you?

Life is complex, so any question about life is also complex. If it weren't, we wouldn't be discussing it because it would be so obvious.

[salinen]

212. you're on to me

If I hit a squirrel while driving, it will affect me for years. And I carefully take spiders outside.

[Duer 157099]

220. Well me too. But that doesn't change the fact that I still kill

millions and millions of living things every day of my sorry life.

Such is a fact of life on this planet.

Are you new here?

[salinen]

224. By new

do you mean new to du, or newly hatched? The answer to both is the same. I'm not new.

[Duer 157099]

232. New to the planet

It just seems like a question that younger folks tend to suddenly think about.

It's ok to be new. Anywhere.

[PeaceNikki]

214. A zygote is less important than a squirrel.

Yes.

[Tailormyst]

203. Yes- I would have no problem saying that- including to myself

[Sheepshank]

145. wow

what a load of cods wallop. You are entitled to your opinion. I guess I'm entitled to voice my opinion of your opinion.

I'd not deem it necessary to try and change your mind or make you live with my choices in life. You've made it clear that you don't deem it necessary to press your personal agenda in deference to others' opposing agendas. Right?

So I don't understand the purpose of the pose except to initiate a flame war.

[salinen]

160. I wanted to talk about it

Did I really start the war? Or is my opinion so odious that I deserve attack? You decide. In a wierd way, I think people may feel uncomfortable with the way they currently feel and don't want to be reminded of it.

[Quantess]

194. Your opinion isn't "odious", it's just embarrassing.

Incoherent and nonsensical.

[ohheckyeah]

291. I disagree.

I think some people have dealt with a lot of shame heaped on them.

[ceile]

148. Is this a joke? n/t

[pipi_k]

150. I got to wondering the same thing after a bit...

It's either a bad joke or flamebait.

Not worth any more of my time.

[Quantess]

149. This is all just a philosophical ponderance to you.

Real women face real, life altering, choices.

[Zoeisright]

152. That's the dumbest thing I have ever read.

Human beings are the REASON animals are becoming extinct.

And it's none of you god damned fucking business if another woman wants to abort her EMBRYO.

God, that is DUMB.

[theHandpuppet]

158. +100

Actually, when I read the OP it seemed so irrational that I dismissed it as the ramblings of someone who had been smokin' too much of something and had the sudden urge to copulate with his keyboard.

[apocalypsehow]

155. Is this satire?

:shrug:

[TZ]

157. No YOU are not logical.

Tell me do you think humans have gills? Because fetuses do at one stage.Thats got to be the most irrational illogical anti-science argument EVER. If you know anything about ecology you know that when a population is more than an environment can safely sustain (as humans are waaay over that) natural abortions and other things that lower the birth rate become common in fact become natural.
What you believe is what you believe but please don't state that you have any logical belief. A zygote is NOT a human.

[salinen]

168. Do fetuses become fish?

Cool.

[TZ]

179. No they don't

But it shows they aren't humans either. Anything that can't breath on its own, is not human life, biologically speaking. People are not fish, or trees. I deal with cells in the lab everyday that share traits with the early fetus. Does that make them human? Hell no.

[PeaceNikki]

210. Sperm could become a human, too. Ergo, you cannot wank your shit anymore.

So could the eggs I release every month. Your argument is dumb.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

159. Let me know when you've decided to stop masturbating.

[ismnotwasm]

189. Dude

He'll just switch hands. Long time to wait.

[ismnotwasm]

161. You want me to risk my life?

Hypocrite.

[Betty Karlson]

162. Everyone is pro-life

The difference of opinion is about what counts as "life" and what is merely "existing".

[salinen]

176. That's the argument

As humans we make that distinction. We are so godlike.

[TZ]

183. Umm no.

What makes human life is not opinion based. Just like evolution HAPPENS despite what people believe.
Your opinion of what is human life is just that an OPINION. It has nothing to do with actual biological fact. The argument that just because something has the potential to be something does not mean it is that same something. False dichotomy. Thats why I pointed out that fetus have gills because at that stage they are only potential human life not true human life.
You have yet to explain as well, why you equate humans with endangered species? Let me ask you something. Do you oppose population control of animals by birth control or by feeding them abortifacts? Because that does happen.

[salinen]

197. I don't know what abortifacts are

I don't oppose animal population control. I've done my share of gopher eradication. As potential human life forms, should fetuses be treated the same way as controlling the animal population? If that was so, maybe every fetus should be aborted because humans are too numerous.

[Vickers]

165. So, people have fucked things up, possibly beyond repair, and *your* idea

is to make more people?

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

[Hello_Kitty]

187. Literally the dumbest reason to justify continued overpopulation.

If the 7 billion "miracles" we have on Earth now haven't figured out how reverse the devastation we've wrought, why are people so certain future generations will?

[salinen]

225. Kitty

abortion is a horribly inefficient way to control population.

[Hello_Kitty]

242. Which has fuck all to do with my comment?

When was I advancing abortion as the preferred method of population control?

[Greyhound]

166. All 2,600+ people that have read this bizarre stream of incoherence are poorer for the experience.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

167. what drugs are you on?

[Deep13]

170. "I find it arrogant for myself to even consider the fate...

...of another innocent life form."

Agreed. That's why telling women what do do with their own bodies is so wrong. And frankly, the fact that you use the word "innocent" in your description reveals a strong puritanical streak in your thinking. Adult humans are not innocent because we are capable of "sin" (however one wants to define that.) Animals and fetuses aren't. The bottom line is you are proposing to impose your ideology about the value of life on an innocent third person. How is that different than the Fundies?

Endangered species are protected not because they are life forms, but because we humans value the present diversity of species and we want to make sure those critters and plants continue to be around in the future. We as a species are somewhat less concerned about livestock or dandelions. What you are doing is anthropomorphizing animals. A fetus is not a person. With no life experiences on which to base self-awareness, how could it be? Do you remember being a fetus? Does anyone? I remember some idiot priest getting water up my nose as an infant, but that's about it.

Death is part of life. There is no way around that. And it has nothing to do with what me might suppose some person or animal deserves. Mother nature aborts far more embryos and fetuses that medical practitioners do. It happens to weed out defective embryos that either will never survive anyway or else will be a burden and threat to survival to the parents. And frankly, with the threat that our growing population poses to all life on Earth (including our own), I am not willing to foreclose any population control measures that fall short of murder.

[salinen]

188. Well

I guess I could have said an "inexperienced" life form. But because the fetus has no self-awareness, no memory, that somehow, that voids it's chances. Who are we to decide what values are worthy of the life experience? I am a more advanced form of my former fetus period. I could never be writing this without having first been a fetus. There's no way to skip that phase.

The population explosion is certainly a problem. Abortion is not a very efficient form of population control.

[Hello_Kitty]

180. Yawn. eom

[rcrush]

195. I know several guys that claim to be pro life. Until their SO got knocked up.

Then they are all to quick to offer to pay for it. Just sayin.

[Goblinmonger]

196. What about the legal paradox regarding death of a fetus

If a woman gets into a car accident on the way to get an abortion and the fetus dies as a result of the car accident, the person driving the car at fault can, in most states, be charged with manslaughter/homicide in the death of the child. That needs to be fixed.

[winyanstaz]

198. Well then...you must also think all sperm must be protected...

How many have died running down your leg? Does this make you a mass murderer?
Its easy for a man that will never face giving birth to say what a woman must decide...however...its not right nor fair.
It is arrogant for you to sentance women to die in childbirth too.
You do not get to decide what I do with my body, the fluids of my body or the eggs of my body...fertilzed or not.

[bullwinkle428]

199. Once again, the classroom scene from "Billy Madison" is the most appropriate

reply to this OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0

[Mushroom]

202. Yup, you are prolife

No need for debate. You won.

:rofl:

[Lil Missy]

207. Have you been circumcised?

[grahamhgreen]

208. More humans = less species. you're pro-human, not pro-life.

[PeaceNikki]

211. One of the most common pro-life claims is that "life begins at conception."

Beyond the obvious controversy of this statement, there is actually a second and more subtle error here. And that is that human life began only once: at the dawn of humanity, with the rise of the first human beings. Since then, there has been a continuum of human life: every sperm, every egg and every zygote have been full-fledged signs of human life, complete with all the characteristics of normal cellular activity, and all 46 human chromosomes. (Half of these chromosomes go unused in the case of sperm and eggs, but all 46 are there nonetheless.) The correct question is not "When does human life begin?" but "When does personhood begin?"

From: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-personhood.htm

[Bluebear]

213. Good - - then don't have an abortion, SIR.

[salinen]

218. that's between me

and my doctor.

[brewens]

216. Funny that people who will cheerfully spend billions of taxpayer

dollars murdering our troops and innocent civilians for their own personal gain, will push the anti-choice agenda.
They really don't give a shit about any fetus or women. They use superstition to exploit people that don't know any better.

[Hippo_Tron]

217. What should the punishment be for a woman who has an abortion?

A fine, jail time, death penalty?

[salinen]

228. Nothing

This society has given the woman the choice. It's either her, or society. I think it's better that the woman, and not the society, to come to that decision.

[Duer 157099]

219. Are you pro-life for those cancer cells that might live inside of you?

I mean, they are fully "you" and they want to grow and reproduce and get bigger.

Surely it's not your right to have them killed.

Right?

[salinen]

229. Have you ever tried to diaper

a baby cancer?

[Duer 157099]

231. You're asking the wrong person

:D

[PeaceNikki]

234. Have you tried to diaper a zygote?

[LeftishBrit]

250. No - only a baby aardvark!

[Ignis]

267. Equal Rights for Bateria and Virii!

Next burning issue on DU: Are you Pro-Nematode? :rofl:

[salinen]

276. I didn't know that you could pluralize viruses

and call them virii. Neat.

[Ignis]

293. Oh, that's all 18th C. Neo-Latinate claptrap, but it stuck.

"Virus" was actually used in Latin as a noun for an uncountable mass (like air or ice), so there's no proper plural form in Latin.

"Virii" is most often used in the tech world these days, while most biological scientists now use the more English-appropriate word "viruses."

[fishwax]

227. I don't get what that has to do with a woman's right to choose

When people say they are pro life, it generally means they oppose a woman's right to choose. But I don't see anything that you've written that suggests women shouldn't have that right--personally believing that abortion is problematic isn't the same as being "pro life" in that sense.

"I find it arrogant for myself to even consider the fate of another innocent life form. I am not more important."

If you wish to restrict a woman's right to choose, that's pretty much what you're doing.

[salinen]

233. I am pro

women should have the right to choose. But I am anti that the fetus is just so much useless protoplasm. There is no way to satisfy both the mother and the fetus in the case of abortion. But since a choice must be made, give it to the mother. Let's not deny that we were fetuses, patiently waiting to grow up and post at du.

[Seedersandleechers]

236. Your avtar

looks like an upside down dick.

[salinen]

259. not necessarily

hehe.

[Lorien]

252. If you care about endangered life forms then why add more of the species that's killing them

to the planet? 7 billion "miracles" is enough, imho. I like kids but don't have any because I'm a). realistic and b). not a sadist. It's downright cruel to bring another child into this mess that we've made, especially knowing these facts: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/jul/07/research.waste if I know that a child probably won't see 40, and will know war, starvation and thirst before death, bringing that child into a world with only a horrific future to offer is selfish in the extreme. Until we start to solve our population and environmental issues contraception is the greenest thing we can support. And if that fails, then abortion should be an option.

[surrealAmerican]

261. You sound like you haven't actually done anything to ...

... protect "endangered and threatened species". It frequently involves removing other, more plentiful species.

If that's what you're basing your "pro-life" argument on, it's not much of an argument.

[salinen]

278. Well

I'm not much of a thinker.

[Duer 157099]

270. I pity the poor species whose biological imperative to reproduce

(to the tune of some several billion so far) is so weak that it has to be encouraged.

Dude, be real. The human drive to reproduce is so strong that NOTHING we try will ever dent it. And that would be "trying" which we are currently, as a species, certainly not doing.

We reproduce mighty damn fine, thank you.

Seriously.

[sarge43]

271. Tell you what. When you are pregnant then do whatever you wish.

Until then butt out.

[polmaven]

274. You have the right

to not have an abortion if you think it is wrong. Oh...wait....!

[tekisui]

277. Shameful anti-choice shit on DU.

:puke:

[LeftyMom]

279. Just out of curiosity, what did you have for dinner?

:popcorn:

[flvegan]

280. I think you just painted the OP into "the decider" realm.

:popcorn:

[LiberalCatholic]

284. a family story from before Roe v Wade

A female relative gave herself an abortion in the 1920s. Sixty years later her daughter would tell me how the doctor had to try and put the baby back together to make sure that he got it all. She had given birth to 9 children and could not face having another baby. She never got pregnant again.

That made me realize that abortion can be a desperate act and at the very least is fraught with emotion. I think that we need to focus on reducing the number of abortions- better access to birth control, better sex education (not just for high schoolers) and leave the final decision to women.

And I, too, think that abortion is killing and thus is wrong. But we are all given free will and if someone feels that she must make that choice then she should be allowed to do so. I think that the biggest sins are against the living. We have so many suffering people in this world that we are supposed to be helping. I think that the wack job Crotch Christians need to re-read the bible and stop focusing so much on abortion and homosexuals.

[salinen]

288. Thanks for sharing that

Be warned though. That opinion is poison around here.

[distantearlywarning]

285. Unrecc'd for incomprehensibility. n/t

[booley]

289. I have at least two reasons to be pro choice

A friend of mine in high school got pregnant when she was 9. She could either abort or risk mutilation and possible death.

Another friend I have now also required an abortion or else also risk serious health issues.

Funny how so many who say they pro -life forget that the woman involved is alive.

BTW, equating aborting an as yet unviable fetus or clump of cells with killing individuals in a dying species is a false analogy. It's morally and intellectually insulting.

[mrmpa]

292. Law is moral but individual morality cannot constitute law

It's a simple matter, your individual morality that life begins at conception cannot constitute law. This issue of when life begins has been settled by law over hundreds of years. If you want to live according to your individual code, that's fine, however you cannot force that code onto others. This is what extremist Muslims do.