Pentagon OKs lifting ban on women in submarines

[ensho]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61M6LW20100224


The Pentagon said on Tuesday it is moving ahead with plans to end the U.S. military's ban on allowing women to serve in submarines.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates sent a letter to lawmakers notifying them of the decision by the Navy, which could see the first women on nuclear submarines next year.

"This is fundamentally a Navy initiative, which they recently briefed to the secretary of defense. (Gates) supports it and he notified Congress of the Navy's plans," Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said.

Women account for about 15 percent of the more than 336,000 members of the U.S. Navy and can serve on its surface ships. But critics have argued that submarines are different, pointing to cramped quarters where some crews share beds in shifts -- a practice known as "hot bunking."

A likely scenario would see female officers becoming the first to join crews on the Navy's fleet of 71 submarines, since officers have separate accommodations, a U.S. defense official said.

Congress has 30 days to provide its official comment on the Navy's decision.
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well, ok. us women need to have some of us to know how to run a sub

[hedgehog]

1. Way to spoil an old joke, Pentagon! (although some would say that

joke was past its sell-by date the first time someone told it!)

[Captain Hilts]

2. Key West should have its own squadron again...

[ensho]

4. thanks for the pic, I hope they don't come back to K.W.

I want to see military decrease not increase.

[old guy]

5. My old squadron.

USS SEA CAT (SS-399)

[Captain Hilts]

6. I met a TIRANTE sailor on DU yesterday!

Dad was DIVCOM 122 down there.

What'd you do on the CAT?

You rock!

[old guy]

7. Electronics Tech. ETR3 (SS)

[DevonRex]

3. Fantastic. nt

[LLStarks]

8. As expected, the right-wing reaction has been shamelessly sexist. nt

[me b zola]

16. Check the thread on this topic in LBN

Plenty of shameless sexism here, too. :(

[951-Riverside]

9. Is that a good idea considering how many women are raped in the US Military?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8511010.stm

[Captain Hilts]

10. Personal discipline and accountability are MUCH higher in the sub force. nt

[951-Riverside]

11. I also thought the same about Military in general n/t

[Captain Hilts]

13. I have kith and kin in the Marines, Army, AF and elsewhere in the Navy.

The subforce has a discipline and culture that will accommodate and integrate women well.

The subforce has little patience with rah rah chest beaters.

Sub sailors don't care about gays, etc.

[old guy]

15. Agree.

There was a Quartermaster on the boat who admitted to being gay. The crew didn't care and he was still aboard a year later when I was discharged. It was never an issue. As long as he dogged that hatch in the conning tower on a dive, we didn't care what he was. (and he always did)

[Posteritatis]

30. Friend of mine recounted similar experiences during his time in service

Folks knew it, joked about it (as often as not at his instigation), and people with the ability to get him in trouble for the fact were scrupulous about looking the other way. Standard military grousing that's probably been around since Sumeria notwithstanding he generally spoke glowingly of the whole experience.

[me b zola]

18. Yes, it is a good idea

Discrimination cannot be allowed to persist because of violent acts/reactions of those in the majority.

[951-Riverside]

19. My point is the military does nothing to combat the issue of sexual abuse...

Yet they continue to force women to serve under very horrible conditions. "Discrimination" has nothing to do with my point.

[me b zola]

24. But ending discrimination has everything to do with my point

I've heard the argument many times in defense of discrimination that men are sexual predators who cannot control themselves, therefore women need to be protected from them by limiting women's access to certain careers. My point is that the less we tolerate double standards, the more quickly we will move toward a military that does not tolerate sexual abuse & harassment of it's members.

Do you feel the same way about LGBTs serving openly in the military? I know recently there have been posts about some commands treating their gay members well, but that is not going to happen in every command. There will be "backlash" by homophobes and RWers in the military, but that does not mean that we should allow the discrimination to continue. People should not be limited in their career path because of gender nor orientation. People should be able to contribute/work according to their skills & talents. RWers, homophobes, and men who fear and hate women will either have to evolve or be forced to move on.

[951-Riverside]

25. Fix the horrible conditions first then worry about the rest later.

if you do nothing about the horrible conditions and continue to force women to serve under those conditions you're only creating more victims.

Look at it this way, if a school hired a repeated child molester to teach your child (hypothetically speaking) would you 1. Remove your child from the class until the teacher is removed (or) 2. Continue to let your child go to that class because you want them to continue getting an education.

Consider prisons, would you force an African american inmate to be housed with white supremacists without insuring the inmate's safety first?

So what it comes down to is you would you consider integration a priority over safety or safety a priority over integration?

Do you feel the same way about LGBTs serving openly in the military?

Yes. If there is a risk to that soldiers life and/or personal safety I would do everything I can to correct and remove any potential adverse conditions first before forcing them into a dangerous situation.

[Posteritatis]

28. Therefore women need fewer rights!

Oy. What else should they be forbidden from doing for their own sake whether they want to or not?

[seabeyond]

31. strict, strong, enforced anti rape policy instead of a shrug for rights. nt

[billyclem]

12. Most responses, for and against, will be emotional or ideological.

Since the vast majority of people have absolutely no idea of what conditions are like aboard a submarine I am taking two actions, 1)ignore the emotional & ideological responses and pay attention only to those who have actually served on submarines and 2)wait and see what happens with the program. As a former ET1(SS) I feel the cramped conditions and almost total lack of privacy will make this a very difficult program to successfully implement.

:dilemma:

[Captain Hilts]

14. They're talking about missile subs that have more room and have difficulty

keeping crew.

What boats you serve on?

[jmowreader]

17. On an SSBN this makes perfect sense

On a Los Angeles class--where you stuff things in every conceivable space until no more will fit, and then stuff more things in--not so much.

[3324SS]

22. Keeping Crew?

what are you talking about? SSBN's are the only units in the US Military that are always 100% manned.

[Captain Hilts]

26. The USN is short 400+ nuke-trained officers and 900 enlisted. The sub force

is having a difficult retention problem. For the FIRST time EVER the USNA is making kids whose first choice is not subs, go into subs. They've lost a good part of their talent pool to vision correction surgery. The near-sighted Mids line up at Bethesda Naval for it, then opt for aviation.

This situation, combined with the more intensive schedules of subs to make up for the shortfall in sub numbers, has made making a career of it far less attractive, particularly to officers.

[billyclem]

33. I served a long time ago on the old boats,

Skipjack and Sturgeon class fast attack. Since my frame of reference is so old my only comment about the program is that I think it be very difficult to implement successfully.

[3324SS]

23. If you don't wear Dolphins

Then you do not know what the heck you are talking about on this subject.

Now are women capable of serving on board the boats, yup no doubt in my mind, they are.

Is it a good idea, only if they don't change the berthing around to provide special accommodations, it will only cause problems.

I have been out for a few years now but rack selection is still based upon rank and if you are qualed or not, who will put up with a non-qual scum getting a better rack just because they are a woman?

The hard part will be finding the right kind of women who will fit in with the community.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Being that deciding to become a submariner is very 'self-selecting' it will be interesting to

see how many and what kind of women volunteer.

[DavidDvorkin]

20. Straight women, anyway

I guess lesbians can serve on submarines as long as they don't tell.

[Shell Beau]

21. Wow! I never knew there was such a ban.

[divvy]

29. But, but, but, don't women fart?

[lightningandsnow]

34. Girls don't fart, silly.

:P

[timeforpeace]

32. Finally getting around to addressing a vital societal need.