Rhode Island teachers fired - all teachers, principal axed, Viola Davis's high school

[G_j]

http://www.examiner.com/x-27365-Young-Adult-Pop-Culture-Examiner~y2010m2d24-Rhode-Island-teachers-fired--all-teachers-principal-axed-from-actor-Viola-Daviss-high-school


Rhode Island teachers fired - all teachers, principal axed from actor Viola Davis's high school
February 24, 4:59 PM Young Adult Pop Culture ExaminerConnie Ann Kirk


The Central Falls School Board has fired every teacher in Central Falls High
School in Central Falls, Rhode Island. (Photo: cfs.net).

Rhode Island teachers fired - all teachers, principal axed from actor Viola Davis's high school - The Central Falls School Board in Central Falls, Rhode Island voted Tuesday night to fire every teacher, the principal, and 19 staff members of Central Falls High School, according to USA Today.

The high school is the alma matre of actor Viola Davis, who was nominated for an Academy Award last year for the movie, Doubt, starring opposite Meryl Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman, and Amy Adams. Seventy-four teachers are involved in the wholesale firing, with a total of 93 employees losing their jobs.

The 5-2 vote is an attempt to clean house on the part of the board to improve quality in the school. The Providence Journal reports that the high school has a graduation rate of 48%. The paper reports that Superintendent Frances Gallo had originally laid out a plan with teachers to improve performance that would require teachers to spend more time with students after school and additional methods of helping. Teachers wanted more pay for their time, and a dispute ensued. The result was the firing, starting a firestorm of support among teachers' unions. Reportedly, the teachers will have the opportunity to reapply for their jobs, but less than 50% of them will be allowed to return.

The website for the school district boasts that one of its alumni is actor Viola Davis. Ms. Davis was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress in 2009. She played the role of of Mrs. Miller, the mother of a boy who may or may not have been abused by a priest in the 2008 movie, Doubt. The actor won a Tony Award in 2001 for her role in King He

..more..

[mix]

1. This will be happening all over the country in the coming months. nt

[Name removed]

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[saigon68]

75. With a short time out by "I never had sex with that woman"

[WinkyDink]

279. I am compelled to be precise, as it constituted the legal defense: "sexual RELATIONS."

[Nikki Stone1]

2. They were fired because they wanted to be paid for their time. This is a trend in many places now.

"The paper reports that Superintendent Frances Gallo had originally laid out a plan with teachers to improve performance that would require teachers to spend more time with students after school and additional methods of helping. Teachers wanted more pay for their time, and a dispute ensued. The result was the firing, starting a firestorm of support among teachers' unions."

[Oregone]

4. Silly teachers. How dare em.

[Raspberry]

6. I read today

that they were offered $30/hour. The union demanded $90. I can't think of too many jobs that are worth $90/hour.

Most salaried people work many, many hours per week for free. I don't have a lot of sympathy.

[Hannah Bell]

8. bull. that's the propaganda put out by the super & her peeps. she makes $140K + benefits.

[mellonman]

152. Before responding get the facts.

Get the facts straight read the article.

[Hannah Bell]

221. she makes $140K + benefits and the "fact" at issue came from the supers' lips.

[msongs]

10. exactly, everyone like you should be willing to work for free because....its cheaper lol nt

[Bozita]

12. Link or source, please.

It really sounds like teabagger bullshit to me.

[Raspberry]

14. Link to Providence Journal

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

About mid-way through the article:

"Gallo wanted teachers to agree to a set of six conditions she said were crucial to improving the school. Teachers would have to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom and commit to training sessions after school with other teachers.

But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo."

[Bozita]

16. Thank you.

[emilyg]

80. Thanks.

[Hannah Bell]

98. The same paper initially reported this as a "per diem" rate (=per day)

which is nonsensical. A per diem rate is not an hourly rate. I suggest that someone is, let's say, playing loose with the facts.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:FyNcdLgBDpYJ:newsblog.projo.com/2010/02/money-a-sticking-point-in-tran.html+%22central+falls%22+%2490+%22per+diem%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Regardless of *what* the union officials asked for, the fact is the superintendent, who makes $140K + benefits for running 7 schools, refused to negotiate & gave the union an ultimatum: accept my terms or everyone will be fired. In violation of a standing contract.

[immoderate]

164. They offered $30 for "some" of their extra hours.

Teachers demanded $90 for "more" of the additional work. From that, you can only say that Gallo offered less than $30, and the teachers asked for less than $90.

--imm

[wilt the stilt]

13. It's funny that you say that

I was recently talking to a friend who was a lawyer and he stated a similar concern and then mentioned that lawyers at big firms used to bill about 1500 hours a year. It is now 2,000 to 2,500 per year. These lawyers no longer have a life.

Look at America. People hardly take vacations anymore. In business and especially sales we work all the time. We take 3 long weekends per year(Memorial,July 4th and labor day and if we are lucky the week between Christmas and New Years providing you don't have any end of the year deals going down.

Something is out of whack when we expect people to work 50-60 hours a week. Maybe Unions have it right. When the 40 hours are up they are out of there.

Do we live to work or do we work to live?

[Raspberry]

15. Agree

We put up with a lot of crap from our employers. They will cut head count, but still expect the same amount of work to be done. And we do it, because that is the cost of having a job. So-----why should teachers be any different?

Central High had appalling test scores, graduation rates, and by any objective measure, the majority of teachers were not doing their jobs. I don't see canning the whole lot and starting over to be a bad thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. "the majority of teachers were not doing their jobs"

Link? Proof? Were you there??

[Hannah Bell]

119. they will whip us, fuck us, cut off our fingers -- & we put up with it, because that is the cost of

having a job.

your logic. i won't say what *kind* of logic it is, but it's pretty obvious.

[liberalhistorian]

129. Does that "objective measure" include parental

actions and requirements? Because teachers have no control over many factors that make a difference in student performance. PARENTS bear a large share of responsibility here also. They are the ones ensuring the students are well-fed and adequately cared for, not abused, neglected, or apathetically allowed to do whatever they want, that they have a good attitude toward education, that they're studying effectively and doing their homework, that they're held accountable for their actions instead of everything being the teacher's fault and never darling Johnny's fault, etc., etc. Those all make a HUGE difference. What do you expect teachers to do, follow all their students home and monitor everything they do in the seventeen hours a day. they don't have them (for elementary) or the 23 hours a day that they don't have them, for the junior and high school students. Most other workers don't have to deal with those kinds of variables that they have no control over, yet are still blamed for no matter what.

I grew up with teachers, I know full well the daily shit they deal with and how they're held accountable for factors they have NO CONTROL OVER. And screw the goddamn superintendents and administrators. They make more than twice as much money as teachers and yet they often do far less. And they often run things like dictators. People wonder why I never followed in my parents' footsteps and became a teacher, I said no fucking way. I saw what they dealt with and how little they were compensated for it both monetarily and in respect and appreciation and how the stress nearly killed them and no fucking thank you. My stepdad got dementia in only his fifties and is now in a nursing home in only his sixties, who knows how the stress and shit affected the development of that.

And I see it only getting much worse, not better at all. Why anyone would even want to consider going into education nowadays, I don't know.

[mellonman]

153. Little pay?

A teacher that has tenure in my city makes $70,000 plus benefits per year and most get the summer off. I do not think that is a hard pill to swallow.

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. Getting summers off is the #1 myth promoted by teacher bashers

Most also prefer pepperoni but I am taking you for a cheese kind of guy.

[mellonman]

225. I said most.

Not all teachers work during the summer. Some work for summer school and adult education among other things and do so with extra pay.

[theHandpuppet]

165. Thank you

:thumbsup:

[Tailormyst]

195. Do you have any clue what Central falls is like?

Any clue at all? The teachers could be the best in the world, willing to work for FREE and still a huge chunk of kids would drop out.

1 square mile of new immigrants packed on top of each other. Rampant poverty, very little money for school supplies.

[mellonman]

230. You are right.

It has been that way for 40+ years.

[amborin]

231. that's a meaningless statement

lots of communities remain 1st generation immigrant communities for 80+ years;

people move in, move up and out, new people take their place

[mellonman]

244. I do not understand!!!

What is wrong with some of the people in this forum? I am agreeing with you. I also made the statement that it has been that way for over 40 years..... Central Falls has been a immigration community for decades. So how is it a meaningless statement? Are you disagreeing with me? Tell me when it has not been. So how does your statement of "lots of communities remain 1st generation immigrant communities for 80+ years; people move in, move up and out, new people take their place" have to do with the statement I made agreeing with you about CENTRAL FALLS and adding that it has been that way for years. Are you just arguing with me for the sake of argument?

[Nikki Stone1]

24. +1

.

[dkf]

268. I haven't had a life since they magically turned my job from hourly to salaried.

Professionals are expected to do what it takes to get the job done.

Sorry but the mentality that I get paid extra for more hours is Alien to me as it is to most professionals

[Marr]

37. *edit*

[mudplanet]

56. Baloney. I doubt you're going to get much sympathy on this site for the poor salaried employee

If you "read" crap like this, do us all a favor and post a link or cite the source. Otherwise we will all assume you're reading free republic and watching fox and aren't part of the "reality based community".

$30 an hour is about $80K a year, which for a teacher works out to about $60K a year, probably not out of line for experienced teachers in the Northeast.

If you want to pay people hourly, why the hell should they work off the clock?

Salaried people don't work ANY hours free. That's why they are salaried. They agreed to be salaried because they thought they would be "management" and make more money, but the real management continually schemes new ways to get more work out of them for the same money (i.e. they end up working for less money per hour).

Most jobs I've had that are paid "hourly" are set up that way because the owners think they will get more work for their money that way. Unfortunately, about half the time what happens is people find themselves having to spend more time on a job than there is work and develop work habits that favor inefficiency (they learn how to fuck off a lot because they have to kill time).

If you can't think of too many jobs that are worth $90 an hour, you haven't thought past lawyer, doctor, or any highly skilled professional.

Psychiatrists charge around $300 an hour today. Psychologists in private practice charge in the neighborhood of $250 an hour, and master's level psychotherapists get $80 an hour wage (not billed, they bill more than that).

The local mechanic's shop charges $80 an hour for labor on your car, and if the mechanic is experienced he/she should be getting in the neighborhood of $25 an hour. Carpenters make $25 an hour. Why should the people that train our children to be productive citizens be getting less than carpenters and mechanics?

[Raspberry]

62. Who says I expected sympathy??

Salaried people understand that long hours for no "extra" pay is part of the deal. Teachers are salaried; therefore they should be willing to put in a few extra hours per week, especially when what is at stake is the very future of the students they are supposed to care about.

I did post a link. It's somewhere on this thread, and I'm sure you'll be able to find it, if you care to look.

I believe that accusing someone of being a Freeper may just be against the rules here. Not sure about that, but I suggest you tread carefully, just in case.

$30/hour probably isn't out of line, but the $90/hour that the union wanted the teachers to be paid is excessive. Especially in today's economy. Remember, many of the taxpayers who are paying the salaries of these teachers may be in danger of losing their jobs or their homes. Why should they continue to shell out $$$$ for people who are ineffective in their jobs.

I don't understand your nonsequiter regarding hourly employees. But maybe reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Teachers are NOT hourly employees; they are salaried.

Yes--doctors, attorneys, psychologists, etc. are paid much more than $90/hour. Teachers are not. Furthermore, FAILED doctors, lawyers, and psychologists probably make nothing, because no one having a choice would use the services of someone whose success rate is as abyssmal as that of the Central Falls HS teachers. Unfortunately, the parents of these kids do not have a choice about their kids' teachers. If they felt they did, they would probably demand better.

Finally, the teachers at this school are clearly NOT training their students to be productive citizens, since they can't even graduate from high school.

[Bozita]

76. You keep repeating the $90/hr BS while ignoring the demand for an unknown # of extra unpaid hours

Now, why's that?

[Raspberry]

79. Because

the number of hours is unknown, the monetary demand is not.

[Bozita]

97. That's disingenuous. You know it. I know it.

[Hannah Bell]

121. FALSE. FALSE. FALSE. What's known is the NEW HIRE SUPERINTENDENT MAKING $140k + BENEFITS

for managing 7 little schools refused to negotiate & demanded the union accept her terms or have their workers fired summarily.

which is what the catholic school shill did. blatant contract-breaking & union-busting in violation of precedent.

and the charter school shill that's called the head of the us ed department applauded.

[liberalhistorian]

130. +1,000,000,000

nt

[leftstreet]

285. +1

[amborin]

233. so, by your logic, teachers should work for free for an "unknown" extra # of hours!

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[mellonman]

154. Union

To bad the teachers could not speak for themselves individually there might have been a solution. Unions are unfortunately the #1 killer of American jobs.

[Binka]

163. Get Lost Freep

[TommyO]

175. I think you're in the wrong place

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. Oh bullshit

Now go back to freeperville.

[Tailormyst]

196. Fuck off

[tnlefty]

201. Too bad that you weren't paying attention in elementary English

classes, too, too bad.

[mellonman]

227. Engrish

I seck enrgish as well as the resht of use. Sorry I had one misspelled word. We cannot all be as perfect as you.

[winyanstaz]

224. You have no clue.....

Before the laundry unions came to Wyoming...women were fainting from the heat and falling into the hot presses from the floor above.
All the ladies wanted were some salt tablets and a railing so they wouldn't die or be horribly burned and or crippled for life.
The women were beaten with pipe wrenches by hired thugs for trying to bring in a union.
Unions saved many lives and still do.
Without a union..you are at the mercy of the boss and their thugs.
People that don't like unions are either union busting shills or idiots.

[mellonman]

228. Wrong.

Are you speaking of the Collar Laundry Union? If you are, what year was that? Come on get with the times. I worked for a non-union company for 24 years with no problem. Look them up Taco Inc. They didn't need a union to keep their employees happy. Unions for the most part are not needed in this day and age. Unions were a great thing in the days when there were no laws to protect workers and child labor. So to bring up something that was started in 1864 and to call me a union buster or an idiot is a little dramatic. Why do people call other people names when they do not agree with their point of view?

[winyanstaz]

272. I am speaking of the union my mother helped start in Wyoming

in the 50's.

I saw the women bleeding after the strike the night they brought in the "union busting thugs.". I saw the women that fell into the presses when they fainted from the heat and lack of salt tablets.....the ones that lived anyways.

My mother made $.80 cents an hour working 12 hour days in terrible heat and carrying HUGE loads of laundry. She raised five kids and a dead-beat bastard of a husband while she worked herself to death.

She had no choice because it was a small town with no other jobs available at the time...and she loved us kids.

We often went hungry and we wore rags..even though we never saw our mom because she was working so hard for so little. After the union came in..we had milk on our table. That means nothing to you but to hungry kids..it meant a lot.

I had border-line rickets from malnutrition as a kid..because there was no union to make that bastard pay his employees a living wage.

You have obviously never had to hold your baby sisters and brothers bony little bodies while they cried themselves to sleep with hunger pains.
You never sat under the slide at lunchtime at school because there was no money for lunches (this was before welfare too) and there was no food at home.

You are lucky you worked for a company that gave a rat's ass about you.

Not every company does and some can be very cruel indeed to their employees.

Just because you personally had no problems is not a reason to try to deny other people protection. It's just selfish and unthinking.

Perhaps I was too hard on you..but you didn't watch your mom suffer like I did or have to tell your baby brother there was no food...so it's personal with me and it makes me angry when people who have had no problems want to deny other people the right to some protection to a decent days wages for a decent days work.

[WinkyDink]

284. The REASON you "had no problem" is BECAUSE unions exist. Are you THAT naive?

[amborin]

234. you gave yourself away: you are an anti-union union-basher!

[mellonman]

245. How

Because I do not think unions have the best interest of the worker at heart anymore. I am not out protesting or telling people to leave their unions. Again a different point of view is met with name calling. I am embarrassed to call myself a democrat at times and see why the republicans have such an easy time ripping us to shreds when we try to get something done.

[krispos42]

246. Let the gravedancing commence

[Starry Messenger]

273. Thank you!!!

I was not looking forward to their future posts. A few months of that would have been torture.

[Bluebear]

253. "To bad" you flunked English. You could use a Unionized teacher.

[Kltpzyxm]

267. hit the road

freepfuck.

[WinkyDink]

283. You are a moron who somehow thinks the 40-hr/week was just GIVEN to workers.

Try reading some labor history, moron.

[PVnRT]

170. I feel sorry for you and your slave mentality

On the other hand, your expectation that everyone should live to work instead of working to live is pretty much straight out of the right-wing playbook, so I don't feel so sorry for you.

[kwassa]

193. Teachers are hourly employees in this huge school district.

Over 11,000 teachers.

They fill out time sheets; however, there is no available overtime.

All extra time put in is done for free, and all do it, but it does make one aware that one is not getting paid for their time.

[amborin]

232. you clearly have no knowledge about compulsory level public school teaching

teachers *already* put in LONG hours above and beyond teaching time in the classroom; planning, preparing, grading, cleaning, inservices, parent conferences, holiday plays, fund raisers, etc....

and you want to add to that!

as for $90 an hour being too much in today's economy! just the opposite! it doesn't go very far

[Citizen Worker]

86. Grossly overworked and underpaid teachers

Two close relatives of mine are teachers and both overworked to the point of near exhaustion. Both teach a foreign lanugage but in two different school districts. One of them is now teaching 7 periods a day with NO prep periods. That means he's doing MORE work at home and getting less sleep and no pay for working at home. In fact, he commented last week that he's averaging about 3 hours sleep a night. He spent several days of the Christmas break correcting papers and posting grades. How much more can be demanded of him before hs's completely worn down with no time left for a family life of his own? His spouse has come homw so exhausted she cannot eat and goes to bed. They have a five year old. What kind of life is this for him?

Parents need to step up to the plate and ensure that their children do the home work required and help when their child needs help. But, oh wait, mom and dad, if they're lucky, are working extra hours to try and make ends meet so they don't have the time either. Where does that leave our kids?

I have a copy of an investment strategy paper written a few years ago by one of the major investment banks on how to take over public education. Notes the paper, "...public education is a $600 billion a year industry that we ssrvice but don't yet provide..." That's the real issue, privatization and a guarenteed transfer of public money into private hands but first the schools must fail so that we the public have little choice bot to agree to the demands of capital and privatize. If anyone is interested in a copy of the paper I will gladly reproduce and mail for just the costs.

Citizen Worker

[mellonman]

155. Overworked and overpaid.

Unfortunately I do not feel bad for them. They are no different than others that have to work for a living and put in long hours and do not get compensated at a rate they feel is up to their standard. When I was a child (which was over 30 years ago) teachers had to do lesson plans and correct papers at home. Teachers at my son's high school work an average of 7 hours a day for 180 days plus or minus a few days. How much does the average teacher pay for health care? A teacher with tenure in my city makes $70,000 plus benefits a year that is not too shabby in my book. I think school systems should get rid of the problem students that do not want to learn and parents that do not intervene on their child's unacceptable behavior should be held accountable.

[PVnRT]

171. Idiot. You think teachers don't grade and do lesson plans at home now?

If you don't, you're just another ignorant freep. A coherent one, though, I'll give you credit for that.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

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[Tailormyst]

194. That is a lie.

So is the " they make 90k a year" BS that the rw is peddling.

Central Falls is 1 square mile of VERY poor immigrant families stacked on top of each other. No pundit flapping their gums over this has any fucking clue what it is like to teach in that place under those conditions.

[Hannah Bell]

250. you folks keep repeating the lie that the teachers were offered $30/hr for the added duties.

they were offered $30/hour ONLY for a two week training gallo wanted to hold during their contracted summer break.

just want to make it clear that you & other posters are willfully spreading false information. god knows you've been called on it plenty of times.

[readmoreoften]

276. Oh my god more PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT FROM THE RIGHT. When will you people actually research?

Don't you understand what "$90$ an hour means" That's every calculable benefit and only counts the time a teacher is in class--not the time he or she is planning lessons and grading at home--which is MANY HOURS a week. I was once making "$93 dollars an hour" as a teacher and it in fact came down to less than $16,000 a year.

You anti-union, pro-boss thugs ruin do the Republicans dirty work for them.

It's your responsibility to investigate, not just to listen to the propaganda of the bosses. Do you really think teachers demanded to be paid $190K a year? Are you that dense? Would ANY UNION make such an absurd demand?

[Raspberry]

17. $90/per hour

Way excessive.

[Bozita]

19. If they want them to work 10hr/wk extra and only pay them for one, that changes the equation

The article doesn't mention the number of "extra" hours.

I'd bet my life that teacher union isn't really asking for $90 for each "extra" hour.

[Raspberry]

20. Link?

I've provided you the link to back up my assertion.

[Bozita]

23. Same link. How many "extra" hours is Gallo demanding and how many is she willing to pay for?

From the link:

"But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo."

[Nikki Stone1]

26. It's not clear how many. What is clear is that Gallo was asking for unpaid work hours

The union was asking for $90 probably as a bargaining tactic: you always start high and negotiate down.

Here is my take:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

"Duncan is requiring states, for the first time, to identify their lowest 5 percent of schools — those that have chronically poor performance and low graduation rates — and fix them using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation which requires a longer school day, among other changes; and “turnaround” which requires the entire teaching staff be fired and no more than 50 percent rehired in the fall."

Now look at this: the choices are closing the school (teachers get fired, lose jobs); PIRATIZATION by private company; longer school day and more hours for teachers (ostensibly at same salary); Firing all teachers (teachers get fired, lose jobs)

Now, if you're a public school teacher, half of Arne's options involve you losing your job. The other half involve you working a lot more hours than other teachers in the country for LESS pay. "Transformation" holds out the only chance for a little extra cash for your time. The Piratization option means you will work more hours for NOTHING.




"Gallo and the teachers initially agreed they wanted the transformation model, which would protect the teachers’ jobs.

But talks broke down when the two sides could not agree on what transformation entailed.

Gallo wanted teachers to agree to a set of six conditions she said were crucial to improving the school. Teachers would have to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom and commit to training sessions after school with other teachers.

But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo."

So, here is the unpaid work hours. Here is the extra training. Here is the union asking for $90, presumably as a bargaining tactic to make sure that the teachers got paid for their time.


"After negotiations broke down, Gallo said she no longer had confidence the high school could be transformed and instead recommended the turnaround model. Gist approved Gallo’s proposal Tuesday morning and gave the district 120 days to develop a detailed plan."

And so, Gallo decided to get rid of the teachers.

Now what happens? Maybe they'll hire 50% of teachers back, maybe they won't. And who will get hired in their place? A bunch of young, new, cheap, and inexperienced teachers. Gee, that'll help the school and the kids.

Mark my words, schools like these are being targeted to lower costs of labor (teaching staff): then Wall Street can swoop in and take over and make a profit on cheap teachers who work more hours for less or no pay.

[Raspberry]

36. Younger, inexperienced teachers

are sometimes better. They have more energy, they haven't been burnt out, they probably have more of a connection with teenagers (understanding their world better.) Also, teachers hired into this situation will understand the expectations and the challenges, and will more likely to be up for the challenge.

As for the pay--lots of salaried people put in hours for which they aren't expected to be paid. It's part of the job. Teachers should be no different.

[Bozita]

46. Younger, inexperienced *fill in the blank* are sometimes better.

Doctors, lawyers, architects, plumbers, auto mechanics, cooks.

None of those sound right.

But it makes sense to say, "Younger, inexperienced teachers are sometimes better"?

[YvonneCa]

64. And sometimes they are worse. I've trained many...

...new teachers who were wonderful. But I've trained several who were awful. It's never good to generalize...whether it's about new or experienced teachers.

[Raspberry]

66. True--

--but the teachers who have clearly failed at Central Fall HS are doing the students no favors. It sure sounds like trying a whole new crew might not be the worst thing that could happen. (Certainly not worse than maintaining the status quo.)

[YvonneCa]

74. How do you know which teachers failed...

...those students? I can't tell...

[Raspberry]

78. I have no way of knowing

but with graduation rates and test scores as low as theirs, it's a good bet that many of them are. My understanding is that they can all reapply for their jobs, and those who didn't fail will be hired back, by people who are in a position to know their effectiveness, their effort, and everything else that goes into being a good teacher.

The others--no great loss.

[YvonneCa]

82. If there is even ONE good teacher at that school...

...then this policy is wrong.

[Raspberry]

84. Are you saying

that 73 losers should benefit from trying to be fair to one good teacher?? I disagree. They can rehire that one good teacher, and let the others find something else to do.

[YvonneCa]

94. But they WON'T rehire that one good teacher....

...unless that teacher is CHEAP (think 'new teacher') because this is also about saving states (who are in financial trouble) money.

Then again, it is not ONE teacher at Cedar Falls High...it is probably SEVERAL teachers at Cedar Falls High. It is not just ONE school in RI, it will probably be SEVERAL schools in RI. It is not just ONE state doing this, it is SEVERAL states doing the same thing.

That is a LOT of good teachers being treated unfairly. And it is Duncan's policy the states are implementing.

[Bozita]

87. So, the same admin that ran this school into the ground will hire the new teaching staff?

Absofuckinglutely brilliant!

The superintendent has been there for three years.

Prior to this mass execution, how many teachers in the district have been dismissed or are in the legal process of dismissal?

If the answer is zero or one or two, then this is something a lot more than *fixing* a broken school.

[Tailormyst]

198. Clueless

The problem is poverty and lack of funding on top of a population of new immigrants of which English is not the primary language.

[MadHound]

93. Really? So we can have an entirely new crew of doctors and nurses do your quad bypass?

How about a fresh out of law school attorney doing your divorce?

Oh, yeah.:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

134. oh, that's different. experience matters in those cases, but *anyone* can teach. you need no

preparation whatsoever, & you never get better at it, either.

no, it's simple to keep 30 junior high school kids on task, interested, enthusiastic, & learning at the expected rate.

especially when 60% are poor & speak spanish as a second language, & 30% move every year.

i mean, who couldn't do it?

[tonysam]

108. Stupid comment.

If they're good, they get better with experience.

The firings are the trend in widespread age discrimination against teachers.

I can tell on this thread who teaches and who doesn't.

[Bozita]

118. It's not age discrimination; more like wage discrimination. This mass execution is a budget balancer

Hitting the top of the salary schedule?

Fasten your seat belts.

[tonysam]

126. Yes, it is. More experience = older teachers. Period.

And districts do shitcan older teachers even without a lot of teaching experience such as yours truly.

[Hannah Bell]

125. and most times worse. because they don't have the experience.

salaried people get to work less when things are slack.

what is it you don't get about MANDATED HOURS ON SCHOOL GROUNDS??

[LiberalCatholic]

43. Some young teachers are great

"Now what happens? Maybe they'll hire 50% of teachers back, maybe they won't. And who will get hired in their place? A bunch of young, new, cheap, and inexperienced teachers. Gee, that'll help the school and the kids.

Mark my words, schools like these are being targeted to lower costs of labor (teaching staff): then Wall Street can swoop in and take over and make a profit on cheap teachers who work more hours for less or no pay."

I'm in my 40s and back at school to earn a masters in Elementary Ed. I have 3 sons and I've observed almost all of their teachers-both good and bad. Just teaching for 20 years doesn't make you a good teacher. In fact the two teachers that are on my short list to student teach are both in their 20's. They are energetic, smart and up on the best teaching techniques. They are also two of the best teachers that I've ever seen. The worst teachers that my sons have had are all older than me.

I don't think that it is unfair to expect teachers to give extra time to help failing children. And $90.00 is crazy. But I do have an issue with the privatization of education. I don't see how the Dems can be behind this. Of course I seem to be saying that a lot lately...

[hogwyld]

50. I agree with your statements

Grandmother taught H.S. English for 30 years, and my wife is a teacher. All of the younger teachers I've seen are much better than the older ones. My 2 boys have blossomed under young teachers. As for the $90 bucks an hour, that's just plain ludicris! My wife would like to earn a fraction of that, but even though the pay isn't the greatest, it's not bad for basically 8 months of work once you factor in the Summer, Winter, and Spring breaks and holidays.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. So your grandmother wasn't a good teacher in her 30th year

Have you told her that?

[hogwyld]

216. Different era's

While my grandmother taught for a long time, she retired in 1979. There were no cell phones, ipods, computers or other crap that teachers of today need to compete with. Our country had a vastly different set of values between her generation, and the ones going through school now. She helped to shape the baby boomers and the hippies of the 60's. She was a bleeding heart liberal way before I was a glimmer in my mama's eyes. She actually traveled around the world during her summers to experience other cultures, and bring that knowledge back to her students to encourage them to push the envelope. I'm very proud of my grandmother, and have told her so repeatedly.

[tonysam]

109. The younger ones don't last two minutes in teaching

The trend is to shitcan them before they reach tenure, and therefore they never teach again in public education.

"Careers" in public education are only 2-3 years max with these "reforms." As long as too many students go into this field and there are too many people chasing too few jobs, teachers will continue to be treated like shit.

[Raspberry]

29. Well--

the article DOESN'T say that they were being required to work 10 hours, and be paid for one. And anyway, teachers are salaried. If an engineer, or an accountant, or whatever, can't be effective within an eight-hour workday, he or she has to put in extra hours--for free. It's the downside of being salaried. Teachers should expect the same.

By any measure, Central High is a failed school. Teachers need to accept some of the blame for that situation, and to accept some of the responsibility for improving it. If they won't, or can't, there are probably a lot of people willing to take their places.

[Nikki Stone1]

30. Did you read my post?

This is actually a planned hit and there will be more of them.

[Raspberry]

39. Yes, I read it

Maybe it will end up being a good thing.

The kids at that school (and at all failing schools) DESERVE a better education than they are getting. If the teachers they have can't, or won't, teach them, then clean house and find some who will.

I'm on the side of the students on this one.

[Hannah Bell]

123. The students are on the side of their teachers.

[liberalhistorian]

133. You seem to be totally ignoring the fact that the parents

of students also bear a HUGE share of responsibility for their education and training. It isn't just teachers. You've obviously never had anything to do with education or an education field, or it would have taken you five minutes to realize that. How many of the failing students have crummy and apathetic parents? My guess is that a lot of them do. And admins bear a huge share of responsibility as well they make more than twice as much as teachers and do a lot more damage in a lot of ways. Many are downright dictatorial.

Oh, and psssttttt.....the STUDENTS are on the side of the teachers. They recognize this as the union-busting, contract-breaching, intimidation tactic that it is.

[liberalhistorian]

135. And another thing-unlike private and charter schools,

public schools are REQUIRED to accept ALL STUDENTS, regardless of ability, disability, achievement level, etc., etc. That is one reason why comparisons with private and charter schools drive me batshit insane. Public schools can't cherry pick like other schools can. And they also can't pick the parents of their students, either.

[Nikki Stone1]

146. The students are not well served by Wall Street taking 20% off the top of their education funding

which is what will happen when this school is privatized/piratized. Notice that 2 of the options get rid of teachers, 1 option calls for instant privatization, and the 4th option makes the teachers work for peanuts by extending unpaid hours.

[amborin]

236. yes, and this is the same thing happening w/ health care: more privatization

by failing to include a robust P.O., Obama is handing a larger portion of health care over to private entities; next up: soc sec and medicare

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. The teachers are being assigned ALL the blame

Not the students and not the parents and certainly not the idiotic supt. Just the teachers.

[a la izquierda]

181. +1

I don't teach high school, but I'm teaching college courses. I bet the same students that I have who won't take responsibility for their actions with me were the problematic high school students. Frustrating, to say the very least.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. And then there are those who never make it to college

At my level, I have many who eventually drop out. But I suppose that's my fault :)

[a la izquierda]

213. LOL

all your fault, just like it's all my fault when the student gets an F. :sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

187. We're testing this week

It's the last practice before the MAP. One of my darlings got herself suspended the other day. So she won't finish the test. If this was RI, I'd probably be fired for her failing test score. And of course the teacher bashers probably think it's my fault she got suspended! Like I told her to go down the hall and beat the shit out of a classmate. :sarcasm:

[amborin]

235. there are *always* people willing to take someone's place: impoverished Chinese peasants will gladly

take over American unionized workers' jobs, for $2 a day, while living in hovels

[mrmpa]

52. wrong amount-actually $1.60 a month per student-read on it's really only .01

This is how I figure it. A teacher at my school teaches 125 different students daily, so over 4 weeks that 2500 students. The teacher earns $4,000 per month (that's with a Masters degree and 4 years experience). The teacher is earning $1.60 per month per student. Now each student is taught roughly 16 hours a month, so now it's down to the teacher earning .10 per student monthly, over a 10 month school year, the teacher earns .01 per student contact for the year.

[mzteris]

21. they were offered "more pay"

just not enough "more pay". I guess thirty dollars an hour wasn't enough - they wanted NINETY dollars an hour.

Let me clarify - it's not the teachers here - it's the negotiators for the union that is f'd up.

Disclaimer - this is in no way meant to denigrate UNIONS nor their members. Some "officials" however, have some issues that need looking into.

[Hannah Bell]

127. You're spreading bullshit everywhere, aren't you? No, they weren't offered "more pay".

The only pay they were promised was $30/hour (which is less than straight time) for a two-week summer training.

You're a font of misinformation, repeated over & over & over & over.

[Bozita]

132. Did you know that teacher union negotiators are teachers in that same LOCAL union?

Some of them are teaching in that high school.

Oh, yeah, they get their marching orders from the teachers in that district.

I do agree with you on this: "Some "officials" however, have some issues that need looking into." ... Just replace officials with posters.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. Facts. Please don't spoil their fun with facts.

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. They also didn't want to eat lunch with the kids

And I am still waiting for someone to tell us how sharing mealtime with teenagers is going to increase test scores.

:rofl:

[handmade34]

103. much of my work at school

was on the value of sharing meals with kids... you may laugh, but the studies, time after time show that kids function much better when they eat with adults (especially parents, but adult role models also fit in the mix)

sorry I don't have the links - all my work is back at my house

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. Making teachers eat with kids is just the district's way of saving money on cafeteria employees

It's an old tactic and has been fought by teachers unions for decades.

It also doesn't do a damn thing to raise test scores.

[handmade34]

190. we can merely disagree

I have taught; I have worked with kids on many levels. My last job teaching was at a relatively small school for at-risk kids (and I believe that many students at Central Falls are most likely at-risk). We had a program that allowed the students to take turns helping to prepare the food and all teachers shared the meal with the students. From both that experience, my experience in public schools and my academic studies surrounding the importance of sharing food, I absolutely believe that this is an important part of a students day. Many factors figure into test scores and it is erroneous to claim that sharing a meal with students doesn't help.

[proud2BlibKansan]

192. 30 years teaching - the last 17 special ed

1. Putting kids in the kitchen preparing food violates a ton of health codes.

2. There is no data linking teachers eating with kids with higher test scores. I don't care how much you think it is such a wonderful experience. Eat with them all you want. But don't blame low test scores on those of us who don't.

[cali]

266. I think programs like the Farm to School are fantastic

and yes, the kids sure do put in kitchen time. No, I doubt that they're violating health codes.

http://www.farmtoschool.org/state-home.php?id=24

[Bozita]

114. The earliest contract demand of most nascent teacher unions a long time ago was duty-free lunch

I can see that disappearing now in RI.

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. My thoughts as well

We negotiated for years to have a duty free lunch. And the district tries to take it away every time we negotiate.

[WinkyDink]

281. Thus, "after school" becomes, de facto, "during school."

[Oregone]

3. If Arne Duncan applauds it, can it really be bad?

I mean, he is dreamy, and tall, and athletic-y. Clearly, this is a dude who is never wrong about education policy.

[Dinger]

5. Yup

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x195693

[KamaAina]

9. And he has a killer jump shot!

:sarcasm:

[Nikki Stone1]

27. Arne's plan:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

"Duncan is requiring states, for the first time, to identify their lowest 5 percent of schools — those that have chronically poor performance and low graduation rates — and fix them using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation which requires a longer school day, among other changes; and “turnaround” which requires the entire teaching staff be fired and no more than 50 percent rehired in the fall."

Now look at this: the choices are closing the school (teachers get fired, lose jobs); PIRATIZATION by private company; longer school day and more hours for teachers (ostensibly at same salary); Firing all teachers (teachers get fired, lose jobs)

Now, if you're a public school teacher, HALF of Arne's options involve you losing your job. The other half involve you working a lot more hours than other teachers in the country for LESS pay. "Transformation" holds out the only chance for a little extra cash for your time. The Piratization option means you will work more hours for NOTHING.




"Gallo and the teachers initially agreed they wanted the transformation model, which would protect the teachers’ jobs.

But talks broke down when the two sides could not agree on what transformation entailed.

Gallo wanted teachers to agree to a set of six conditions she said were crucial to improving the school. Teachers would have to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom and commit to training sessions after school with other teachers.

But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo."

So, here is the unpaid work hours. Here is the extra training. Here is the union asking for $90, presumably as a bargaining tactic to make sure that the teachers got paid for their time.


"After negotiations broke down, Gallo said she no longer had confidence the high school could be transformed and instead recommended the turnaround model. Gist approved Gallo’s proposal Tuesday morning and gave the district 120 days to develop a detailed plan."

And so, Gallo decided to get rid of the teachers.

Now what happens? Maybe they'll hire 50% of teachers back, maybe they won't. And who will get hired in their place? A bunch of young, new, cheap, and inexperienced teachers. Gee, that'll help the school and the kids.

Mark my words, schools like these are being targeted to lower costs of labor (teaching staff): then Wall Street can swoop in and take over and make a profit on cheap teachers who work more hours for less or no pay.

[QC]

33. How could Arne be wrong! He plays basketball with the prez!

And you are right about the dreamy part! He makes me feel all funny inside!

[Dinger]

7. Happy To Give Another Kick & 5th Rec! (nt)

[spartan61]

11. I have just one question about this.

If the teachers had tenure, how can they be fired without going through all the steps required to remove a teacher?

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. That will likely be decided by a court

NCLB says one of the options for a 'failing' school is firing the entire staff. But does that negate state tenure laws?

Should be an interesting legal battle.

[tonysam]

110. It's a good question. NCLB shouldn't overrule union contracts. n/t

[kudzu22]

18. Seems a bit harsh

[mzteris]

22. blame the officials that screwed up

the "negotiating" on behalf of the teachers.

Not the teachers. Not the school admin. Not the board. Not "Arne".

[Nikki Stone1]

25. This is part of Arne's PIRATE-ization scheme. (And unpaid hours were a part of the deal)

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

"Duncan is requiring states, for the first time, to identify their lowest 5 percent of schools — those that have chronically poor performance and low graduation rates — and fix them using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation which requires a longer school day, among other changes; and “turnaround” which requires the entire teaching staff be fired and no more than 50 percent rehired in the fall."

Now look at this: the choices are closing the school (teachers get fired, lose jobs); PIRATIZATION by private company; longer school day and more hours for teachers (ostensibly at same salary); Firing all teachers (teachers get fired, lose jobs)

Now, if you're a public school teacher, half of Arne's options involve you losing your job. The other half involve you working a lot more hours than other teachers in the country for LESS pay. "Transformation" holds out the only chance for a little extra cash for your time. The Piratization option means you will work more hours for NOTHING.




"Gallo and the teachers initially agreed they wanted the transformation model, which would protect the teachers’ jobs.

But talks broke down when the two sides could not agree on what transformation entailed.

Gallo wanted teachers to agree to a set of six conditions she said were crucial to improving the school. Teachers would have to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom and commit to training sessions after school with other teachers.

But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo."

So, here is the unpaid work hours. Here is the extra training. Here is the union asking for $90, presumably as a bargaining tactic to make sure that the teachers got paid for their time.


"After negotiations broke down, Gallo said she no longer had confidence the high school could be transformed and instead recommended the turnaround model. Gist approved Gallo’s proposal Tuesday morning and gave the district 120 days to develop a detailed plan."

And so, Gallo decided to get rid of the teachers.

Now what happens? Maybe they'll hire 50% of teachers back, maybe they won't. And who will get hired in their place? A bunch of young, new, cheap, and inexperienced teachers. Gee, that'll help the school and the kids.

Mark my words, schools like these are being targeted to lower costs of labor (teaching staff): then Wall Street can swoop in and take over and make a profit on cheap teachers who work more hours for less or no pay.

[mzteris]

47. Look around -

the economy is in the toilet. Budgets are being cut left and right. School budgets, too.

What would you have them do? Manufacture money?

$90 dollars an hour is ABSURD. Hell, I'd jump at $30 an hour. Hell I'd jump at ANYTHING right now as I'm amongst the ranks of the employed. And whose spouse was unemployed for AN ENTIRE YEAR because of the gd economy.

We ALL need to make some sacrifices. The idiot union officials who f'd up that negotiation are the "bad guys" here. them and only them.



disclaimer: this post in no way is meant to denigrate all unions, nor it's members, nor all union officials, nor teachers in any way shape or form.

[Nikki Stone1]

147. $90/hr was a bargaining position, not the expected result. The union was probably

trying to make a point about all the unpaid hours. Unless you've been involved with a union you don't know how they operate.

You can blame the union officials all you want, but in the end, this is about Arne Duncan, Barack Obama, Piratization, and Wall Street taking 20% off the top of taxpayer funding for that school.

[mzteris]

183. funnny -

their CONTRACT calls for $30/hr. . . hmmmmmm

[Hannah Bell]

222. funny: the only $30/hour they were guaranteed was for a two week training that added 10 days,

two work weeks, to their ALREADY-CONTRACTED 185-workday year.

And beyond that, they were told they had to work 2-5 additional hours each week FOR FREE. Not for $30/hour (which is their contracted rate for TRAINING, INSIDE THEIR CONTRACTED YEAR).

Not for $30/hr -- FOR FREE. FREE. FREE.

You have been all over these threads repeating falsehoods. THEY WERE NOT OFFERED MORE MONEY. THEY WERE TOLD THEY MUST WORK MORE HOURS FOR FREE OR BE FIRED.

The kind of distortions to be expected from one who only seems to post about charter schools & gets her fact sheets from walmart's propaganda machine.

[kudzu22]

202. I think they made their point

but I don't think it was smart to press for $90/hour when we have 10% unemployment and the state has no money. I think the union tried to call the board's bluff, only they weren't bluffing.

[Hannah Bell]

136. exactly. it's *planned,* it's deliberate. & that's what pisses me off more than anything about

the shills at du applauding it & flinging the bullshit.

they *know* it's planned. they don't care, they welcome the destruction of public ed, the destruction of public unions, the handoff of public property & dollars to private interests.

[amborin]

239. and,

they *are* shills

the place is crawling with them lately; at least 3 on this thread, perhaps 4

and, they *don't* care; they're probably getting minimum wage or so and don't have a clue what any of this is really about;

[Jefferson23]

28. This is sad to see the screaming meme that it's the teachers fault

played out to this extent, when the salaries for this part of the country are not out of line imo.

snip** Meanwhile, state and local education officials received some high-powered support of their own, when U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan weighed in, saying he “applauded” them for “showing courage and doing the right thing for kids.”

snip* A national dilemma

Even in a school system known for its academic troubles, the numbers at Philadelphia’s Vaux High School are jaw-dropping: More than 90 percent of 11th-graders tested last year could not read or do math at grade level.

But next fall, at least half the teachers at Vaux and 13 more of Philadelphia’s worst schools could be gone. And the school day, school week and school year could be longer.

http://www.projo.com/ri/centralfalls/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

*This high school, like many others, inherit students unprepared for the grades they are entered into.

[Nikki Stone1]

31. Arne's plan:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

"Duncan is requiring states, for the first time, to identify their lowest 5 percent of schools — those that have chronically poor performance and low graduation rates — and fix them using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation which requires a longer school day, among other changes; and “turnaround” which requires the entire teaching staff be fired and no more than 50 percent rehired in the fall."

Now look at this: the choices are closing the school (teachers get fired, lose jobs); PIRATIZATION by private company; longer school day and more hours for teachers (ostensibly at same salary); Firing all teachers (teachers get fired, lose jobs)

Now, if you're a public school teacher, half of Arne's options involve you losing your job. The other half involve you working a lot more hours than other teachers in the country for LESS pay. "Transformation" holds out the only chance for a little extra cash for your time. The Piratization option means you will work more hours for NOTHING.




"Gallo and the teachers initially agreed they wanted the transformation model, which would protect the teachers’ jobs.

But talks broke down when the two sides could not agree on what transformation entailed.

Gallo wanted teachers to agree to a set of six conditions she said were crucial to improving the school. Teachers would have to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom and commit to training sessions after school with other teachers.

But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo."

So, here is the unpaid work hours. Here is the extra training. Here is the union asking for $90, presumably as a bargaining tactic to make sure that the teachers got paid for their time.


"After negotiations broke down, Gallo said she no longer had confidence the high school could be transformed and instead recommended the turnaround model. Gist approved Gallo’s proposal Tuesday morning and gave the district 120 days to develop a detailed plan."

And so, Gallo decided to get rid of the teachers.

Now what happens? Maybe they'll hire 50% of teachers back, maybe they won't. And who will get hired in their place? A bunch of young, new, cheap, and inexperienced teachers. Gee, that'll help the school and the kids.

Mark my words, schools like these are being targeted to lower costs of labor (teaching staff): then Wall Street can swoop in and take over and make a profit on cheap teachers who work more hours for less or no pay.

[Jefferson23]

35. Thanks for posting, I am no fan of Duncan. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

145. His job is to move privatization of public education along

Even if the schools are worse for it...as long as Wall Street can siphon their take of taxpayer dollars off the top.

[rucky]

248. I think the piratization option would lead to most teachers getting fired, too.

New company taking over, new employer that's non-union, private and for-profit. They'll probably bring in a bunch of first-year teachers and throw 'em in the pit.

[QC]

34. Teachers have become one of the great villains on DU these past couple of years.

Odd, isn't it?

[Jefferson23]

42. I think so, odd indeed. There are many misconceptions, and each district

has their own issues relevant to that particular area. It is fair and appropriate to reviews ALL aspects, I believe poverty plays a central issue imo.

I'll wait to hear more about this R.I. school before I say more, but I suspect they are being scapegoated.

[MicaelS]

68. Not the least bit odd

Many people obviously had instances of very poor teachers and admins during their K-12 education. Coupled with the fact those here that are in education seem to have the attitude that all teachers and admins are perfect, and never make mistakes. Coupled with Zero Tolerance stupidity. Any problems in schools are seen by education professionals as the result of bad students and poor parenting, just adds to the dislike of teachers. No profession is perfect, teaching included.

[QC]

72. The last time I saw that many straw men was at the Halloween barn dance.

It's amazing how much this place has lurched to the right since about 2008 or so. Now teachers are evil, Code Pink is a bunch of nuts, Howard Zinn is a lying commie, progressives are delusional weirdos with too many cats, corporate subsidies are reform, etc.

Those of us who were here in 2001 would never have imagined logging on and seeing so much DLC conventional wisdom thrown around the place.

[Starry Messenger]

89. Several of the comments on DU about this story could be quotes off of Free Republic.

I looked:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2458374/posts

[QC]

92. I liked the one about how "union bosses" and the corporate élite are just the same.

Never imagined I would see that one around here.

The right wing takeover transformation of this site has been a wonder to behold, hasn't it?

[Starry Messenger]

101. I'm pretty flabbergasted honestly.

It's like watching Fox news. People seem to think false equivalence equals "fair and balanced".

[Hannah Bell]

117. same people. same mentality.

[amborin]

240. that suggests to me that these

teacher bashers on this thread are freeper trolls; or, worse yet, they are dino/dlc shills, which attests to how closely aligned dlc and rethug agendas have become

[Starry Messenger]

287. When a Democrat is agreeing with Freepers

I really worry. And they call us "leftbaggers"!!

[theHandpuppet]

168. You got that right

Of course, there are plenty of people here who mistook and still mistake Obama for a liberal.

[QC]

188. There were also plenty of people here who saw right through him from the beginning.

Of course, most of them aren't here anymore.

[amborin]

238. i started reading du in 2004 and even since then there's been

a radical shift rightward; i wonder how much of it can be attributed to deliberate shaping of internet discourse by paid shills?

[QC]

255. I think your theory is exactly correct.

I won't name names, but we all see it.

[tonysam]

112. It's that some people here know what they are talking about

having worked in the system, while people spew nonsense pretending to know what they are talking about just because they went public school or their kids are there.

[Hannah Bell]

157. no, no profession is perfect, but only teachers are being targeted for extinction.

and this = pure bullshit:

"Any problems in schools are seen by education professionals as the result of bad students and poor parenting"

[tonysam]

111. Unbelievable, isn't it? Pro-scabbery, which used to be found

on rightwing boards has now found a home on a so-called "Democratic" site.

The education forum is full of this rot, possibly from people with connections to charter schools.

[QC]

115. Like I said, there's been a real, um, uh, transformation. n/t

[Tailormyst]

203. Well, they are educated union members.

[rucky]

249. And I don't think most of them would survive a week in a classroom.

They'd just tell the students to Google everything.

[Raspberry]

40. There is plenty of blame to go around

But the teachers should accept that at least part of the responsibility for the fact that these students are not being educated most certainly IS their fault. They need to work harder to teach them--and if that means more individual attention, or more interesting lesson plans, or innovative methods, or whatever, then they absolutely must do that. Otherwise, a school becomes nothing more than a warehouse for kids who will have no chance at a decent future.

[Jefferson23]

44. I don't think what you said is unreasonable, and I imagine a large

percentage of these teachers are frustrated too! If a high school inherits students unprepared for 9th grade, why are they sent there
in the first place?

[howaboutme]

49. Where I live

in PA the teachers are demanding and getting multi year contracts with annual 5% raises and great pension and health benefits while everyone else in the community is losing their home, their job, receiving no pay increases, losing their pensions and health benefits. They retire at 100% of pay at 55-60yo. Most of the stimulus money went to states not to build roads but to keep public workers fully pensioned and well paid. So no, I'm not overly sympathetic to this situation.

The answer is we need to do more, require more and spend less. We need multi dimensional solutions. It will not be solved by throwing more money at the teachers. We need to focus on academics for a start instead of frivolous activities such as sports and extra curricular. Parents also need to get involved instead of using the schools as baby sitters. Less administrators and more teachers.

[Raspberry]

54. Everyone is going to have to tighten their belts

if we are ever going to get out of the mess we're in.

If I had been one of those teachers I would have looked around and decided I was extremely lucky to have a good job, and I'd have gone the extra mile--BEFORE it was required. And probably would have been glad to do it for no extra pay.

So these (failed) teachers are going to be out of a job. I can't feel too sorry for them.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozita]

149. Just which districts in PA are getting multi-year contracts with 5% raises? I'll bet the teachers...

... will be glad to hear it. So would I.

Both the NEA and AFT maintain salary stats.

Show me please.

And did you know that the pensions are funded by deductions from their paychecks? Each and every paycheck.

And I'm disappointed to see that your view of the best way up is by dragging others down.

[howaboutme]

207. as one example

http://www.cvschools.org/news.cfm?story=307

When we are all facing a declining economy it is not fair that a publicly paid group that is funded by taxpayers can turn down 4% raises and increasing their health care contributions from their current 10%, retire at a young age at very generous pensions when everyone else has less to live and retire on. There needs to be some equality.

I'm also all for raising the marginal income tax rate back to what it was in the 1950s and 60s (90%) when the USA was far better off fiscally, and ending the free trade programs that have decimated the USA.

[Bozita]

280. You said 5%. Your one 'example' doesn't even fit your own criteria. Please try again.

[PVnRT]

172. Translation: Pay everyone less so the rich get richer

Got it.

[howaboutme]

204. Or we could overpay some so others have far less

People are losing homes now because of the rise in property taxes that goes predominantly to education. While the USA has been in decline mode, public employees as a group have been getting regular raises, offered highly generous pensions, and paying only 10% of the cost of health care. That needs to end because we can't afford to break our nation. BTW I'm for restoring the 90% tax rate that was in place under Eisenhower, so that the rich start paying their fair share and investing in our nation.

Teachers unions have consistently been asking for more and more while others have had less and less.

The root of the problem goes back to the decline of the influence of the private sector organized labor due to the 40 years of free trade (help CEOs and Wall Street) BS. Along with that decline went the interest of many politicians in the Democratic Party in supporting average workers. Instead their interests became more aligned with Wall Street and interests not aligned with average American workers. It was Clinton who signed NAFTA. I'll guarantee that 30 years prior no Democrat ever would have considered signing NAFTA.

This thread in labor forum provides my views on private sector labor which I support

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=367x24903#24960

[Hannah Bell]

254. sure they are, wanker.

ECash-poor Pennsylvania school districts press teachers for concessions

By Debra Erdley The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Publication: The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (Pennsylvania)
Date: Monday, June 8 2009

http://www.allbusiness.com/education-training/education-administration/12501604-1.html


Layoffs to start for Pennsylvania state workers
By The Patriot-News
August 06, 2009, 12:00AM

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/08/layoffs_to_start_for_pennsylva.html


Oct 19, 2009

More Pa. State Government Layoffs Expected Soon

It appears likely that state government will announce another round of layoffs soon.

Gov. Ed Rendell said Monday that he might make an announcement on layoffs by the end of the week. The state has laid off more than 300 employees since July because of spending cuts.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-jersey/794161-pa-gets-right.html

[LanternWaste]

53. I imagine it's a tough call to determine whether

I imagine it's a tough call to determine whether the teachers are not educating, or if a student refuses to, or cannot learn.

[Raspberry]

55. On an individual basis you are correct

but when a school has the atrocious test scores and graduation rates that Central Falls has, it sure looks like very few of the teachers is doing the job they were hired to do.

And--if the students refuse to learn, or can't learn, what do you suggest we do? Continue to pay people to babysit them until they are old enough to be kicked out on the street? That school, those kids, need teachers who will understand that education is crucial to the students' future, and who will go the extra mile.

Paying the teachers more will do no good.

[YvonneCa]

77. Why do you assume they don't...

...have such teachers now?

[Raspberry]

83. Um . . .

. . . maybe because only 3% of 11th graders were proficient in math in 2008, and their graduation rate was appallingly low. I suspect there is a connection between poor teaching and poor across-the-board student performance.

Anyway, those teachers who are effective can and probably will be hired back. The people who are in a position to know which ones they are will be able to make that call.

[YvonneCa]

85. As I'm sure you know...

...research shows several factors affect student performance in school, demographic factors like income and parental education as well as parental involvement in their child's education, etc. Effective teaching is a factor, as well.

Scape-goating teachers for all that is wrong in schools misses the point.

[LanternWaste]

212. No more good, nor no less good than firing them

"Paying the teachers more will do no good..."

No more good, nor no less good than firing them. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Generic Other]

262. "few...is learning the job they were hired to do."

Or as Bush would say: "Is our students learning?"

I suggest since your teachers failed to do "the job they were hired to do," resulting in your failure to learn basic grammar rules before spouting off about the failings of others on an internet forum, your teachers should be fired, and you should return your high school diploma to the failing school which inade1quately trained you to engage in public discourse.

How is that for going the extra mile? After all, "if the students refuse to learn, or can't learn, what do you suggest we do?"


:eyes:

[havocmom]

59. When parents start doing their part, THEN teachers MIGHT be able to teach

Too many parents don't parent. They don't set standards. They don't create home environments where kids understand learning is important and are provided conditions that make learning possible. Too many parents scream at teachers instead of taking responsibility for raising productive children.

Teachers can't fix what parents and society screw up. They certainly should not be trying to do it in extra hours without pay.

Society needs to be accountable for how kids are raised, mentored, encouraged, held to standards. Teachers can't undo the damage and neglect of society and lazy parents.

[Raspberry]

65. While you are right--

--then what do we do about teaching the kids? Should we pay teachers to simply babysit kids we've already decided are incapable of being educated, in a school that is nothing more than a warehouse? This is a school system with serious, serious problems. But I don't think we should just give up on the kids. They need teachers who will work to teach them, regardless of what circumstances they come from.

[havocmom]

67. Not sure, but wholesale firing of professionals who won't work gratis ain't the solution

Parents need to be accountable too. Making them accompany kids who are constant problems might be a start. All a parent has to do is threaten to sue and they get anything they want to get kids off the hook for behaviors. That is not the teachers' doing and they can' fix it.

I am tired of seeing teachers getting abused for the sins of society as a whole.

[Raspberry]

71. Well, for one thing

the teachers weren't being expected to work "gratis." They were offered an additional $30/hour for at least some of the extra time they were expected to put in. That's not nothing, by any means. Especially when many people are having their hours cut, or losing their jobs altogether.

Parents should be accountable, but you really can't "make" the parents do anything. What's the "or else" in that situation? There isn't one that I can think of.

If the teachers' job is to teach the kids, then we can't let them get away with saying, "I can't do it; it's just too haaaaaaard!" or "I could teach just fine, if my students were perfect." If they can't teach, then they need to find something else to do, or we risk turning a profession into nothing more than very expensive daycare workers.

And I can't see where teachers are being abused; the expectation is that they do the job they are hired to do, or get out of the way and let someone else do it.

[YvonneCa]

81. They may very well 'get out of...

...the way' and let others try. :7

[JackDragna]

106. You keep repeating, ad nauseum, about "failed teachers"..

..how do you know they're failing? I teach for a living, and let me tell you, the problems encountered by teachers, and by a school in general, are often those over which teachers have little control. If you go to a school that's failing, more often than not you'll find kids from desperate backgrounds, parents who know nothing about their kids' education and don't care to, run-down buildings and educational technology that was modern about 100 years ago. At what point do you simply expect teachers to do the impossible, to turn schools full of apathetic and ill-prepared students into the kinds of bright, shining scholars you find at schools in wealthier communities? Teachers aren't miracle workers. I kill myself to help my kids, but what I do only goes so far. There's one hell of a lot more to this than whether someone's getting X amount of dollars per hour: there's the idea that a salaried professional, who already busts their ass trying to help their students, is going to be forced to spend even more time at school. I guarantee you this: any teacher worth their salt is already working substantial hours "off the clock" at the school, usually helping their students with their work or running/moderating after-school activities. This whole campaign to fire the teachers at under-performing schools is little more than another simple-minded, cookie-cutter, easy-to-peddle-to-the-public solution for a social problem whose true causes make the general public uncomfortable to mention out loud.

[Jefferson23]

122. You are aware of the issues these children face? You seem to believe

the test scores tell you the whole story, and at this point you sound irrational on the subject.

[Hannah Bell]

159. failed wanker post.

[kwassa]

208. You have hit the nail on the head, in a very wrong way.

We can't make parents do anything, also, we can't do anything about endemic poverty, so, let's blame the teachers for the student's failure! From Arne Duncan to Michelle Rhee, the magical thinking of the moment circles around the idea of "high expectations" as being the cure-all. That magic ignores the impact of the home life, and socioeconomic status, and pretends these factors can be overcome by a few educational tricks.

That sums up the modern educational reform student.

I will point out that you have not proposed any reform idea at all in your posts, except by saying that teachers should just teach the kids. Of course students shouldn't be warehoused, but if they refuse to do the work, and don't care about their grades, what do you propose that teachers do?

[Vidar]

32. More fucking union busting.

[Marr]

38. Exactly. We're going to see more and more of this.

[hogwyld]

45. What about the kids?

Look, my grandmother was an English teacher for 30 years, and she's know her fair share of teachers that were either burnt out, or just didn't care that should have been fired, but couldn't be fired due to union rules and tenure. My wife is a teacher, and one of her co-workers is a wreck and ineffective. But she'll get to keep her job as long as she wants, the students be damned... Unions are great at some things, not so great at others.

[mzteris]

48. No -

just more "fucking idiots who happen to be working for this particular union at this particular time" BLAMING!

THEY screwed up. WTF aren't people pissed off at them? I'd fire the f'ers if they worked for me. (NOT the teachers, the "negotiatiors")

[Bozita]

141. "I'd fire the f'ers if they worked for me. (NOT the teachers, the "negotiatiors")" - HELLO! Hello?

Those negotiators are teachers from that same district. The LOCAL membership selected them and gave them their marching orders.

Some, I'm sure, teach at Central Lake HS.

Unions are the closest thing you'll find to a democracy in today's America.

Thanks for sharing, and shame on you.

[mzteris]

142. they may be "fine teachers"

but they suck at representing the teachers they're supposed to represent.

Shame on ME? Shame on THEM for screwing everybody 'cause they're too stupid to do the right thing.

[Hannah Bell]

160. more wanking.

[mrdmk]

41. This is going to be a classic lawsuit

Firing employees during union negotiations is a Bozo no-no!

[howaboutme]

51. Can you pass this 8th grade exam from 1895?

This is an indication of the direction that our education has gone.

http://people.moreheadstate.edu/fs/w.willis/eighthgrade.html

What it took to get an 8th grade education in 1895...

Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of us have passed the 8th grade in 1895? This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run'
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. For tare?
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. Coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt

U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1 Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.

Orthography (Time, one hour)

1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4.. Give four substitutes for caret 'U.' (HUH?)
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks
And by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.

[Raspberry]

57. Wow! n/t

[Jefferson23]

61. "What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?"

Ha ha, I know a fair percentage of one political party who couldn't answer that question correct if their life depended on it.

[Jefferson23]

63. self delete ..duplicate.

[blaze]

91. Holy carp, no.,

I totally fail. :(

[MadHound]

102. No, of course not

It is a test, like all tests, that is geared towards a certain group of people at a certain point in time. You can see this by the reference to "wheat" and "bushel". Units of measurement that are obsolete now. And yes, while there are subjects that are not emphasized as much, grammar and spelling rules, there are areas that simply weren't taught, literature, physics, chemistry, computer science.

Comparing tests over such a vast period of time is simply invalid. In fact any singular test of any kind is invalid. Yet that's what we're doing, year in, year out, administering a standardized multiple choice test that is doing our children more harm than good.

[Maru Kitteh]

120. You think bushels are obsolete? Don't get out of the city much, eh?

[MadHound]

124. LOL! Let's see, I've got twenty acres that I live on,

And the family farm, one hundred acres, that I've got in CRP. I raise organic, heirloom fruit and have several bushel baskets in the barn.

You're missing the point of my post. That Salina KS test is aimed at a certain set of educational and sociological parameters that were taught in that place and time. Those parameters have changed both over time and location. That makes using that test as any measure of our current educational system invalid. Get it?

[Maru Kitteh]

148. I'm not the one who put bushels in quotation marks and labeled the unit obsolete

That point aside, much of the test would remain in largely unaltered form, and the remaining parts adjusted for modern and familiar situations and measurements - with the whole test then taken as a whole - would undoubtedly be failed by most persons wishing to exit the eighth grade.

[MadHound]

169. Really, I seriously doubt it,

Given that I know what is taught in middle school these days and how well our students do in those subjects.

But hey, keep on baselessly bashing our education system, our students and our teachers. We'll just keep on doing what we do while you show absolutely no support.

Really now, I'm sorry, but on this issue you're just clueless.

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. +1

[PVnRT]

173. Snopes is your friend

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp

Next time, quit just copying nice-sounding sound bites from freeperville.

[howaboutme]

209. Could Snopes have it wrong?

I don't accept that Snopes is always correct and the official judge and jury of fact and fiction? They verify and substantiate nothing that would make it a hoax.

This is from the Salina, KS newspaper. Read the entire article then judge for yourself whether it is fact or fiction.

http://www.salina.com/1895test/

[Political Heretic]

242. Snopes does not say it is a hoax. Read the article.

[howaboutme]

275. The original question question was

Could you pass this 1895 8th grade test? Snopes claimed the concept and test was false. Most couldn't. Snopes was wrong. The culture 100 years ago was more conducive to learning.

American has the same problem with education as health care. We spend much more than other countries and don't get results. The causes are many. My belief is that free trade theory has removed the good jobs that allowed our middle class to be prosperous without requiring families to have two working spouses. Today we have 2 spouses working 2 jobs just to keep up, if said families even have two spouses. Most of the time it is one parent raising their children. Socially we've regressed as a nation and become more impoverished. Poverty means that survival is more important than politics, and politicians thrive on an uniformed electorate. Parents don't have the time or inclination to spend incentivizing their children. Children are not incentivized to learn and achieve. It's a vicious cycle that our corporate beholden leaders have foisted upon us.

[Political Heretic]

286. No actually, the original point was to use a test to claim we're more poorly educated today

...which snopes correctly debunked as a legitimate measurement of education trends.

[howaboutme]

288. The question is..

is it the education process that is lacking or is the receptiveness and motivation of society to education that which is lacking?

The result is not in dispute when only a small percent of students in certain schools can read or write, let alone graduate. Most educators would agree that having motivated students requires motivated parents. My point was that our globalist corporate culture which sold out the earning ability of average Americans to China and elsewhere, and required working longer hours and multiple jobs as an individual and a family is the root cause. The BS of a globalist society where families must work more and longer, and where single parent families are more commonplace has finally caught up to our society and it isn't pretty.

[warm regards]

58. A 48% graduation rate...? In Rhode Island...?

Somebody should be fired...!

[Starry Messenger]

69. We have money for war

money for Wall Street, welfare for every corporate fat cat feeding on the arteries of this country. Teachers ask to be paid for their labor and they're punished and people cheer. Great country we live in, isn't it.

edit: grammah

[mellonman]

156. Re: We have money for war.

The majority of the money for Wall Street has been paid back. Money for war is federal money, the majority of the money for local schools come from state and city sources. Schools also have to perform at certain levels to get certain federal funding. Why do only some communities have this issue? My city is not having this problem.

[Starry Messenger]

206. "Money for war is federal money"

What the fuck are you blathering on about? Perhaps you might care to inform yourself on the "Race to the top" funding that is being disbursed to schools by this administration and get back to me when you have some facts.

[mellonman]

229. Two words then a vulgarity??

Why bring up money for war when it has nothing to do with education. What does race to the top have to do with war money? Like I said "Schools also have to perform at certain levels to get certain federal funding" ===== Race to the Top.

Taken from the Race to the Top site: http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/index.html

Through Race to the Top, we are asking States to advance reforms around four specific areas:
* Adopting standards and assessments that prepare students to succeed in college and the workplace and to compete in the global economy;
* Building data systems that measure student growth and success, and inform teachers and principals about how they can improve instruction;
* Recruiting, developing, rewarding, and retaining effective teachers and principals, especially where they are needed most; and
* Turning around our lowest-achieving schools.

So what was your point? Or did you just want to swear in a public forum?

[Starry Messenger]

274. Bye freepwad.

Good fucking luck in your future fucking endeavors. :hi:

[varelse]

70. Would the demographics have anything to do with the dismal graduation rate?

The median income for a household in the city was $22,628, and the median income for a family was $26,844. Males had a median income of $23,854 versus $18,544 for females. The per capita income for the city was $10,825. About 25.9% of families and 29.0% of the population were below the poverty line, including 40.8% of those under age 18 and 29.3% of those age 65 or over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Falls,_Rhode_Island

[Bozita]

105. Patients of dentists practicing in poor areas have more cavities. ... Avoid those dentists!

Save your teeth. Visit a dentist in a more prosperous zipcode.

[Hannah Bell]

139. same with docs. & lawyers. in fact, any professional with lots of poor clients will have

poorer outcomes "on average".

those people must be losers. if they weren't, they'd be working for rich people.

[varelse]

219. Yup

that's pretty much the logic here. It's really starting to... irk me.

[Hannah Bell]

140. no, it's all because of the teachers. they're bad, & they make too much money.

they should make $22K like their clients.

i hope the superintendent will follow the same logic. she could fund ten families on her salary + benefits.

[varelse]

218. It's maddening isn't it

The financial services industry cannot afford to lower the salaries and bonuses of their top executives because (essentially) "you get what you pay for" logic applies to THOSE people. But teachers? Apparently you get BETTER ones if you LOWER the pay rate?

Or maybe I missed something. :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

251. you know, teaching, anyone can do it. it's like digging ditches.

keeping a roomful of 15-year-olds on task, interested & progressing is child's play.

as anyone who's never done it knows.

[Tailormyst]

197. Central falls is extremely poor

It's 1 square mile of new immigrants stacked on top of each other. 1 square mile of cramped poverty. That might explain things.

It's easier to yell " fuck those greedy teachers.

[varelse]

217. Frustrating isn't it?

Closing the schools or replacing them with for-profit, government funded private charter schools hiring less experienced teaching staff is not likely to make *any* of this better for the kids or their families.

[Tailormyst]

220. Well, Central falls does already have a For-Profit Prison.

All the immigration detainees were recently removed do to very bad conditions.

[LWolf]

104. In the current climate,

and with the support of the current administration, I expect to see a lot more of this. :(

[G_j]

107. unfortunately

that seems to be the direction things are headed. Disgusting, union busting tactics.

[Odin2005]

113. That's just fucking wrong!

:wtf:

[MadHound]

116. For all of those who are pissing and moaning about the $90/hr figure

Japan has the second best school system in the world according to UNICEF. Why is that? Because they pay and treat their teachers like we pay and treat doctors in this country. The put up the cash to attract the best and the brightest to the profession, put them in well equipped, well supplied facilities and give them the respect that is due.

As far as the $90/hr figure that the teachers wanted, do the math. For a nine month contract, that works out to be $140,400, presuming a forty hour work week:rofl: We all know that teacher work more like sixty hour work weeks, if not more. What does your average family practitioner/GP get paid now? According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, $141,300. Oh, and if you try that old canard that teachers are only working nine months a year, we that's bull too, since all teachers are required to receive more training and education throughout the run of their career. That usually leaves about one month of true time off. Wow, a month off, just like in Europe and the rest of the developed world.

If we truly mean it when we say that education is one of the most important jobs out there, then as a country we need to start acting like it. Pay teachers the big bucks, you will attract the best and the brightest to the profession. Provide each and every school with the equipment and facilities we need in order to teach. Make sure that the kids have access not just to education, but counseling, nutrition and recreation, because since the school system is being forced to become the parent more and more, then we need to have the wherewithal to do so. Oh, and give the professional educators the freedom to do their job instead of having fundy school boards or superintendants with political agendas looking over our shoulder all the time. Oh, and it would probably be a real good thing to put an actual educator in the White House as SoE instead of just some yahoo who slept at a Holiday Inn last night.

You want top notch education, you've got to pay for it. Instead we're investing in bombs and bullets and letting our public education system go to hell.

[mzteris]

143. I have ALWAYS SAID

teachers should be making more across the board.

But the fact remains that that isn't the circumstance - and as of now - the economy is still in the toilet. Did you know that the average salary of those hs teachers is about $70K+ per year already??

Did you also know that Central Falls education budget was being CUT by $1.7 MILLION dollars next year?

What would you have them do?

I know what we should do in the long run - but that isn't the issue for this problem.

[Bozita]

144. That $90/hr figure is pure Sarah Palin/Glenn Beck-style BULLSHIT!

The teachers want $90/hr for an undisclosed number of additional paid work hours while working even more *extra* hours for free.

Don't you think we need to know the number of these freebie hours being demanded by the admin? And, how many hours will be compensated?

We have two figures, $30/hr and $90/hr. NO mention of HOW MANY paid hours. NO mention of the *extra* uncompensated hours.

Tell me. What would that mean to a teacher at that school?

We can't say. We need more numbers.

We can either buy the bullshit or do some thinking.

[Hannah Bell]

162. yes, it is. which explains why certain posters keep repeating it. over&over&over& over.

it's a propaganda technique. red meat demagoguery, so all the public remembers is "the damn teachers wanted $90/hour!!!!!!"

not

"the damned $140K+ suburban private catholic school superintendent refused to negotiate & summarily fired an entire school in violation of contract & labor law!!!!"

[readmoreoften]

277. When I was on strike (as a teacher) they said we earned 50K a year when we earned 19K.

They include all possible benefits in the figure, not just your salary. Later was hired a "$93 an hour" when I made 16K a year. They only count the time you're actually in the classroom. And, teaching college, that's 3 hours a week per course.

[dysfunctional press]

131. too bad they can't fire the fucking parents.

teachers aren't supposed to provide 100% of a child's education, motivation, and/or desire to learn.

[Hannah Bell]

138. i wouldn't be so hard on the parents either. more than 50% below the poverty line

& non-english speakers. 70% renters, 30% transient. migrant labor, basically. and probably less than high school ed themselves.

it's the filthy system.

[dysfunctional press]

151. there are also plenty of kids in the same socio-econoic group that do just fine and even excel...

and most of it is because of a cohesive and caring family structure- even if it's a single parent household.

so yes, i can be hard on the parents that deserve it.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

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[howaboutme]

282. Single most important motivating factor

The single most important factor in motivating children is having families that can and are able to financially and emotionally support them.

But family support requires families that have decent jobs paying decent wages so that poverty is not the primary issue. We've been sold out.

Ross Perot who claimed that the giant sucking sucking sound of NAFTA will be US jobs leaving was right on target. We can thank all of those including Democrats and Clintons who were bribed and voted for free but unfair trade and for NAFTA, and most favored trade status for China because those votes were targeted at reducing the earnings of the citizens of the USA. These trade agreements sold us out and are why we are now a poorer nation and why the rich have gotten richer.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PVnRT]

174. The plural of anecdote is not data

[ctaylors6]

269. I love this phrase

[ctaylors6]

270. dupe

[handmade34]

191. rec

[lib2DaBone]

137. PATCO.. UNION BUSTING... Thanks Obama...I mean "Ronnie"..

[QC]

200. Well, he's been singing Reagan's praises for years,

so it's hardly surprising that he would imitate St. Ronnie, too.

Obama said he wanted to be a transformational president like Reagan, and it is true that he is transforming many Democrats into Independents, so I guess that's a start.

[readmoreoften]

278. It sickens me. And his union-busting supporters sicken me.

Not that all Obama supporters are anti-union, but the Arne Duncan apologists need to find another party. These "New" Democrats have got to go. They ain't no different than the "Old" Republicans of the pre-Glenn Beck years.

[wcast]

180. As usual, Central Falls threads highlight money and not situation at the school

The school district itself reports that 96% of the students live in poverty. Working at these high poverty schools is challenging and turnover of staff is high due to burnout. "Kopetz et al. (2006) reported that nationally,high-poverty schools located within urban communities have higher teacher turnover rates when compared to more affluent school districts. Specifically, 50% of high-poverty school teachers leave within the first five years of their career, and in some urban districts, this time frame can be as short as three years (Haberman,06, 1995)."
http://www.habermanfoundation.org/Articles/PDF/Addressing_urban_high-poverty_school_teacher_attrition.pdf

Here is a comparison of Philly school to suburban schools. "In the Philadelphia School District, 44.5 percent of schools made the mark, a slight increase over 43 percent last year. Including charters raises the score to 49.7 percent.

In the suburbs, 85 percent of schools met state standards. That's an increase over 79 percent last year." http://www.philly.com/inquirer/education/20090904_Phila___suburban_schools_share_in_PSSA_gains.html

The difficulty presented in Central Falls is indicative of many high poverty schools. Funding disparity, lack of textbooks, crumbling buildings, little community or parental support.

This firing is what is planned in my state of Pennsylvania as the system is rigged for eventual failure of every school, urban or rural, rich or poor. When we fail to meet AYP, we will be out also. By the year 2014, all students,100%, are expected to score proficient on state tests. These include special education students, and all other subgroups, including high poverty students. No one has heard of the Bell curve, I take it.

The test PA gives, the PSSA, is not a norm referenced test, meaning it isn't set to a fixed standard. It is scaled yearly, which means parents and schools never know how well their children or their schools are doing compared to other schools or students within the state or nation. Instead the PSSA is criterion referenced, which means it is a test designed to provide a measure of performing that is interpretable in terms of clearly defined and delimited domain of learning tasks. On the PSSA there is a sampling of skills required to master each of the academic standards throughout the various curriculum. Whereas a norm referenced test is designed to provide a measure of performance that is interpretable in terms of an individual’s relative standing in some known group. Cut scores, the score needed to score proficient, is set by a panel the PDE picks. It is a number that is pulled out of thin air with little statistical meaning.

Now my state is proposing what they call the Keystone test. Students would be required to take the test after finishing a year long course. The test would be worth 1/3 of their final grade. However, fail the test, and a zero is averaged into your final grade. Score a 66%, that is averaged into your grade, counting 1/3. Score a 65%, a zero is averaged. Again,are these tests normed, validated? Are they set to our standards? What they are is a big money maker for testing companies.

School districts are supposed to be under local control. But that is not true any more. As shown above, suburban school far outperform urban schools, yet all legislation assumes two things. 1. Students are failing because teachers are not doing their jobs (apparently on in poor urban schools) 2. Funding disparity doesn't matter. The solution - Republican lead and planned since Tom Ridge was our governor- test and test some more, when failure happens, fire all of the staff, take away collective bargaining agreements, and higher all new.

If that was the answer, why has there been little improvement in the districts our state has already taken over?!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

184. The state took over one of our districts as well

and there has been no improvement.

[G_j]

186. +1000

[Libertas1776]

199. They must've had a pretty crappy union

By me, the teachers unions are probably the strongest unions in the area. The tenured teachers are locked in. They'd probably have to come to school buck naked with only cool whip covering their privates in order to get fired. Even then that may not be enough.

[Tailormyst]

205. The people on this thread slamming the teachers know NOTHING about Central Falls.

Nor would they last 5 minutes there.

[Fla_Democrat]

210. the high school has a graduation rate of 48%

the high school has a graduation rate of 48%

the high school has a graduation rate of 48%

the high school has a graduation rate of 48%


It may not have been the right move, but something had to be done. Obviously what was 'working', wasn't fucking working. Lost in all the chatter about teachers, jobs, unions, NCLB, is the fact that 52% of the students are not graduating. Sucks to be a teacher in that school, and loose your job. Sucks worse being in the majority of the student body, and loosing your future.
:rant:

[G_j]

211. yea, and it sucks living in POVERTY

did I hear you mention that?

[Fla_Democrat]

256. Sorry, not willing to accept

that poor = unable to graduate. Lived in the Big Ben too long. :hi:

[Tailormyst]

214. The problem is poverty and lack of school funds !

You have ZERO idea of what sort of "city" Central Falls is.

[Fla_Democrat]

257. That's the problem?

Well, at least we have all the poverty and lack of funds centrally located in that one town. Thank goodness there are no other poor, underfunded towns in the country. :smoke:

[Tailormyst]

260. Check around the country for the drop out rate in transient, non-english speaking communities

And yes- that is the problem. Poverty, crime, hopelessness, constant moving, language barriers, etc.

Stick a bunch of new teachers in there and jack shit will change.

[tonysam]

215. The teachers have NO control over transient populations,

single-parent families, poverty, and all of the other factors.

Why are people spewing anti-teacher garbage?

[Fla_Democrat]

258. Well, pooh

why even keep track of the rate? If 52% is acceptable, then phuckit, the kids just are going to have to live with what ever they can get with a G.E.D.

[Hannah Bell]

271. i don't think you get it. students who enroll in the district & move are part of that *failure*

rate. for starters.

[Hannah Bell]

223. and a thirty percent transiency rate, so i've read. which means about 30% of students

who register in the district leave it before the end of the term.

"Something had to be done".

What would you suggest? As if replacing experienced teachers with cheap ones will make ONE GODDAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE.

[amborin]

243. the turnstyle classroom is a nightmare situation

by the time tests are administered, most of the class is new, from heaven knows where

[Fla_Democrat]

259. Clearly

what should have been done is to do nothing. It was going great, who cares if the kids are getting hosed? Well, other than the kids, and maybe their families. So, go back to the way it was, hope Tinkerbell spreads some fairy dust on the test scores, and everyone will be happy.

Hmm, seems to me I remember someone saying something about the definition of insanity..... what was that, lemme think.....

[Tailormyst]

261. You got nothing but snark to offer.

[Fla_Democrat]

263. Sure beats insanity

I can't think of any other situation where 50% failure is not only accepted, but defended. I wouldn't go to an auto shop, where 50% of the brake jobs failed. I wouldn't go in for surgery, if the doctor said... "I've got a good anesthesiologist, but, half the people that go under, don't wake up." If half the cases a DA tried were thrown out, if half the arrests a police force made were dismissed, people would be calling not only for the entire offices to be fired, but the people in those offices to be prosecuted.

At the end of the day, it's not numbers, it's kids. For every 1%, or 3%, or 10%, it's kids. Ill-served by a system that in everyone's (I am assuming, but have reasons to doubt, recently) opinion should be doing everything possible to make sure they receive an education. So, in all the chatter about poor teachers vs greedy administrators, or greedy teachers vs poor administrators.... has it slipped into anyone's skulls yet, that it's the kids getting fucked over, not the adults?

[amborin]

241. "loose" your job

clearly getting minimum wage

[Fla_Democrat]

264. kek, kek

That's all you got, I guess play it.

/golfclap :smoke:

[upi402]

237. WalMart runs school districts now?

Forced OT for no pay is slavery. Salaried employees are different, I know, but fair is fair.

[Imagevision]

247. In 1985 the repugs wanted to eliminate the middle class and their getting there...

[earth mom]

252. Grades my a$$! It's nothing more that ugly and disgusting Union busting!

:grr:

[snooper2]

265. What the hell does this have to do with the story?

"The high school is the alma matre of actor Viola Davis, who was nominated for an Academy Award last year for the movie, Doubt, starring opposite Meryl Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman, and Amy Adams."


Another "reporter" trying to be cute