Alarming new trend: Boys call it "scooping". Parents call it sexual assault

[Liberal_in_LA]

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-scooping,0,78207.story

Scooping: Sexual Assault or Schoolboy Prank?
KTLA News
11:16 AM PST, February 24, 2010

CASTAIC, Calif. -- An 11-year-old Castaic Middle School student says she has become part of an alarming new trend called "scooping," which involves inappropriate touching by fellow students.

Chris Dawson says he was "shocked" when his daughter told him she was "scooped" by a fellow 6th grader.

"Scooping" is when male students reach around a girl's shoulder, grabbing her breasts or reaching under her skirt to touch her private parts.

Dawson's daughter says she was leaning over at her locker when a boy grabbed her breasts.

"It freaked me out a lot that he would do that because I didn't know what it was," the girl, who wished to remain unidentified, said.

She also says she was afraid to report the incident.

"I was just kind of like scared of what would happen, like, if he would do anything to me back if I told on him."

Many parents consider scooping sexual assault.

Dawson says the school told him the student in question would be dealt with harshly and that they would follow up with him a week later. That never happened, he claims.

[varelse]

1. it is sexual battery

what the hell is wrong with people?

[Liberal_in_LA]

3. The guv of California got away with it.

[varelse]

444. People frequently get away with sexual harassment, battery, and assault

all too often, actually, in spite of the fact that all of these are criminal acts.

[redqueen]

277. No shit... I went to public schools and never heard of anything like this.

The schools here would not tolerate any of that shit, let alone consider it a 'prank'.

[varelse]

443. Where I went to school (southern CA) the boy would have been beaten up

most of the 11-year old girls at the magnet school I attended would have pounded the sh*t out of anyone who made the mistake of handling them in that fashion.

[omega minimo]

469. Thread over.

[Kaleva]

2. This was going on when I was in school back in the 60's.

[XemaSab]

5. When I saw in school in the late 80's

the girls used to run around grabbing the boys right in the johnson.

[RZM]

16. I believe that's called 'snaggling' (n/t)

[Ozymanithrax]

19. I grew up in the backwards 60's.

On the back of men's dress shirts, there is this little loop of material. Girls would run up, grab one, and rip them off. I remember they made necklasses with them. I once had a shirt torn almost off by an exuberant female. She just wanted me for my shirt loop.

Snaggling? I guess I was born to soon. I didn't see anything like that until 'Nam.

[itsrobert]

362. Early 80's here

My behind was grabbed on numerous occasions.

[drm604]

12. Absolutely.

I'm not justifying it in any way, shape, or form, but we should be clear that this is not an "Alarming new trend". It's totally unacceptable but it's not the beginning of the fall of civilization or anything.

Every generation thinks it's the one that invented the same stupid crap their parents did. It has a new name - I never heard it called "scooping" - but that's the only new part.

For the record, I never did this, but I did hear other boys bragging about it.

[seabeyond]

34. and when you heard boys brag, did any guy have enough guts to call the braggart out

or did yawl simply giggle.

[Political Heretic]

173. I was too busy getting my ass kicked daily and living in fear.

Sorry.

[DrCory]

178. LOL! You too, eh?

Fellow "lunch money victim" here. Holding controversial beliefs in a small town American high school was (still is I would imagine) quite hazardous to one's health and well-being.

[formercia]

179. There was a Senior that used to steal my lunch every day

until, one day, I mixed some Tide detergent into the Mayo. He was out for 2 weeks.

[ZombieHorde]

442. Awesome. nt

[Political Heretic]

267. Not in high school, but "middle school" was horror.

[seabeyond]

280. a male really doesnt have to do a whole in in the challenging. much of male behavior

is for other guys. when a guy is telling a story of abusing another person, girl specifically, it is as effective for a guy to simply turn around and walk away, not laugh at his story, as any other confrontation.

it really does not take much for guys to see the nonacceptance from other guys.

and i am sorry about the bullying in middle school. i thought my son would experience much more than he did, but it was lite.... and we were all there for him thru it. middle school is the toughest, for both genders.

[Political Heretic]

287. My point is, I had my head down in so much terror I wasn't aware of anything else going on...

...I want to believe that, had I seen it, I would have had the courage to stand up.

I know that I did something similar on the school bus.

A boy slapped a girl and I jumped over two bus seats to tackle the guy and slapped him in the face asking him how it felt. I was so angry at him for hitting that girl (and I get so loud when I'm angry) that he just sort of wilted into tears.

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. Ideally, I'd prefer not to be aggressive myself, shouldn't have slapped the guy I should have just yelled at him - but I was young, and at least my heart was in the right place.

[seabeyond]

297. i hear ya. thanks

i agree. it is like when that guy did it to me, i was so stunned, and then so tunneled vision angry, when i went after him, wasnt even thinking straight. then after, i was embarrassed and i felt bad.

and never see physical confrontation the answer

appreciate your post

[seabeyond]

458. .

[drm604]

204. I was having enough trouble with bullies myself at the time. n/t

[elehhhhna]

430. great question! bw this is why my gals know tae kwon do --

they studied under a US Gold Medalist.

they dropped it b/c they don't like to spar, but if so inclined they could kick a head or crotch right off, and they can both land a hell of a punch.

this would be so totally uncool at our HS...the jerks would have to hide from the ROTC boys, for starters.

[AsahinaKimi]

470. When I was in school

I took Kendo. I had started at age 10 and later was on our school Kendo team. That meant bringing my shinai (bamboo sword) with me everyday to school for practice. Our Instructor was a Korean, and very very good. One time, a guy grabbed me.. (I will not say where) and I broke his nose with my shinai. I was suspended a day, and he was suspended a month, because of witnesses. My father was not too pleased, but my mother later told me, he was secretly proud of what I did, and said to my mother, "Our daughter has the Samurai spirit in her!". To this day, that makes me giggle.

[Maru Kitteh]

155. Those boys hurt me. You should have said something.

You should have said something.

[drm604]

202. I was a child

and those same bullies were hurting me also. Did you say anything?

[lukasahero]

467. So was she.

Fuck.

[wizstars]

292. In the immortal words of Senator Sam Ervin:

"There has been larceny and murder in every generation, but that has not made larceny legal or murder meritorious."

Unwanted groping IS sexual assault, and s/b treated as such. Eleven-year-old are old enough to have that made clear to them.

[Ozymanithrax]

4. She was sexually molested in public...

What does the school consider harsh?

To me, sending him to prison for 6 years would be a measured response. If he gets "scooped" there, well let him charge his attackers.

[rockymountaindem]

6. You would send an 11-year-old to prison for six years?

You think that's measured?

[Ozymanithrax]

17. Not as an adult. I'd send him to Juvenal detention until he was 18...

seven years. My bad.

What would you consider an appropriate penalty for rape? I attended Capitol Hill High School (Oklahoma City) in the 60's, class of 1970. I'm not saying there was never any groping, but it was consensual. A guy who did that would be arrested and sent to Juvi. A boy that walked up behind a girl and "Scooped" her breasts would be a pervert. But I am old and those attitudes may have changed. The article implied that this was more than just a random pervert, that it was common. At what point to you say stop?

[Codeine]

60. Pervert?

That's a bit strong, isn't it? Kids do stupid shit -- I would say calling this a perversion is quite over-the-top.

[nyc 4 Biden]

441. I don't think it's over the top.

That kid is a sociopath and should be evaluated before he is allowed to interact in an unsupervised school setting again.

[rockymountaindem]

83. Good grief

How about telling the kid "I know you're going through puberty and you're interested in and curious about girls' bodies. But touching them like that without their consent is inappropriate and if you do it again you'll be in huge trouble. As it is you're coming to Saturday school this week. Don't do that again."

You'd send a kid to jail for seven years for one incident of inappropriate contact? That's... kind of odd.

[Odin2005]

108. Sexual assult is sexual assult.

"They are just boys being boys, just given them a lecture and they will quit" is called ENABLING.

[rockymountaindem]

115. So the fact that the kid is 11 makes no difference?

Where's your personal line? Eight? Ten? At what point do we start treating everything like adult crime?

Should we find all the kindergartners who do the "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" bit and lock them up for indecent exposure?

If it were adults who were doing this it would most definitely be sexual assault. These are sixth graders. There's a reason they can't sign contracts, drive or join the military. They're not that mature.

[Odin2005]

118. Give him whatever the juvie sentence is for sexual assault.

an 11yo should know better.

[dysfunctional press]

171. aren't you old enough to know better than to recommend sending an 11-year old to juvi for 7 years?

for one incident of inappropriate conduct...?

apparently not. :shrug:

[timtom]

200. I like your solution.

Put the fear of God into him, but give him another chance.

[seabeyond]

261. why would you excuse behavior with puberty and curious, to start your lecture?

i have got to wonder about the number of adults that would soften the words with.... there are reasons you did what you did, just so you know i am not being to harsh with you

where is how he made the girl feel. she gets the harsh and none of the comfort. just a buck up, the boy was curious.

[redqueen]

279. It's sickening.

Absolutely disgusting.

[seabeyond]

282. i am being razzed for continually asking this question. i see these comments as insults to boys

since strong majority of boys know better. i see these comments are softening the wrong boys commit. i see a protection for the boy at ignoring the assault on the girl and her feelings.

and i really find this whole thread fascinating

but being pinned as the male abuser when i stand up for these boys and so many of these males are selling 11 yr old boys out is the most fascinating.

[redqueen]

288. Yes, it really is interesting. (nt)

[elehhhhna]

437. wonder what they'd say if the boys were scooping their sons?

[elehhhhna]

431. every boy should have a mama like you, seabe.

so wise.

[seabeyond]

435. ahhhhh

seeing how i am so being beat up told i shouldnt be a parent, lol, that is nice. and i love your kids took self defense.

[MicaelS]

95. Right, so you're going to brand an 11 yr old boy

As a sexual offender for the reminder of his life for one stupid mistake.

[noamnety]

436. No.

He would be branded a sexual offender ... for sexually assaulting someone.

If you want to use the euphemism "a stupid mistake" in place of the actual criminal offense, that's on you. But the crime itself is sexual assault.

[MonkeyMama]

454. Thank you.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[dysfunctional press]

170. yep...send him to gladiator school to learn new and exciting and better ways to assault others...

What would you consider an appropriate penalty for rape?

well...considering that it wasn't 'rape', what does that have to do with it...?
send the kid to 'juvi', and you'll turn him into a hardened criminal, to be turned loose on society with a HUGH chip on his shoulder when he turns 18.

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

221. The poster does understand what he or she is saying

That poster is drooling over the images of the prison rape of the child in question. Picturing it, writing about it, all in public and under the guise of concern. To be blunt, this poster is saying he'd like to lock up the groper for years, and allow that kid to be sexually attacked. This he or she is saying about an 11 year old child. There are no words.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

460. Send an 11 year old to juvie for 7 years?

I am glad you arent running things.

[anonymous171]

7. Give him the death penalty, that will show him. nt

[Ozymanithrax]

21. Sorry, I oppose the death penalty as cruel and inhuman punishment...

and as morally wrong because innocents are murdered legally by society.

But rape can not be tolerated, not even by an 11 year old. Since the article more than implies that it is a common practice, what do you do to stop it?

[anonymous171]

25. How is this rape? Sounds like the boy needs to be taught manners.

And the best way to do that is to punish the little shit, not send him to juvenile detention.

[seabeyond]

32. it is beyond being taught mere manners and certainly not 6 yrs in juvie....

it is sexual assault and our young boys need to learn it is sexual assualt instead of some cute name, and bragging to the other boys like poster above says

[anonymous171]

149. That's what I mean. You don't need draconian legal punishments to teach them right from wrong.

[Ozymanithrax]

46. Go out on the street and start grabbing womens breasts...

You will be charged with a sex crime. That is what it is. A sex crime.

So, if Juvenal hall is too tough, what do you do?

[anonymous171]

150. If I beat up some nerd on the subway, I get arrested.

On the playground, I might just get detention. See how this works? You can't deal out adult punishments to children.

[MineralMan]

215. The reality is that if you did that, you'd get 30 days in jail,

max. Probably probation, instead. That's what we do with adults who pull this crap. Should we do more to an 11 year old? I don't think so.

What would be more appropriate is for the girl to turn around and pummel the little shit until his nose bleeds. That would be an object lesson.

[dysfunctional press]

227. not all 'sex crime' charges are the same, either.

many jurisdictions have stopped using the term 'rape', and use the term 'sexual assault' to cover all sex crimes- BUT- they also have degrees of sexual assault- 1ts degree, 2nd degree, etc...just like with murder. and an adult who cops a feel off a stranger in public would NOT be charged with the same offense as an actual rapist- the degree of the assaults are much different.

[enlightenment]

31. Rape?

That is NOT rape.

I appreciate that you're opposed to the behaviour, but honestly, calling this rape is seriously over the top.

These boys should be dealt with the same way they have always been dealt with - keep them after school - put them on restriction - take away their electronic gizmos.

Or shame them. Call a school assembly and force them to stand on stage and apologize for the action.

Teach the girls to stand up for themselves; when I was that age we (the girls) had self-defense courses as part of gym. I remember one girl who used the 'thumb twist/knee to the nads' technique to floor a boy who copped a feel the following school year (though this was not very common behaviour when I was a kid).

Eleven year olds are, unfortunately, capable of rape - but this is not rape. Please don't conflate the behaviour with that very serious crime.

[Ozymanithrax]

54. If an adult did this on a public street they would be charged with a sex crime.

If you "scoop" a girl under 18, it is sexual child molestation. If your boss does it to you, it is sexual harrassment.

When I was 11, in 1963, we still thought grils had couties. Amzingly wonderful couties, but couties. Hell, I wasn't told the facts of life until my 14th birthday, by my mother. (The most embarrasing 10 minutes of my life.) Clealry things have changed if this is just a slap on the wrist, boys will be boys, send them to detention kind of thing.

[scheming daemons]

59. But an adult DIDN'T do this... children are not "little adults"... they are kids

and you don't hold them to the same standards that you hold adults.... for a reason.

[Ozymanithrax]

80. No, but when they act criminally, and when those acts are common...

as was stated int he article, it is no longer just a small problem. If this was just one boy, then the whole thing is a gross over reaction. But the article was clear that this is a common event. At some point, these children have not been taught something critical. They have no respect for girls and certainly no respect for themselves.

If two eleven year old kids want to make out under the bleachers, let them have at it. (Personally, I don't think they are physically or emotionally ready for that, but I can accept it.) But for predatory behavior towards women to become nothing more than a wrist slap is just wrong, at least in my opinion.

[Zoeisright]

395. And kids know the difference between right and wrong.

These boys need to be severely punished for this. I would expel them from the school, and put it on their transcript, so the next school would know what they are dealing with.

For too long, boys and men have gotten away with assaulting women. I'm sick of it.

[Codeine]

64. But these aren't adults. For fuck's sake.

This is stupid kid behavior. Similar things happened when I was young, perpetuated by both genders.

[Ozymanithrax]

86. So when do you teach boys it is wrong?

I don't mean wrong, like misspelling a word of speeding, but fundamentally wrong?

[Codeine]

88. When they do it, of course.

But to pretend that a child touching another child is "sexual assault" or "rape" is absurd on the face of it. In fact it's beyond absurd -- it's genuinely insane and a bit frightening.

[Ozymanithrax]

99. The moment they pass 18 it becomes that.

But from comments, I think that my attitudes are very much out of date.

[Codeine]

102. And you honestly cannot distinguish

between the actions of a rambuctious 11-year-old and the actions of a young adult? Your attitude isn't out of date, it's downright pathological. You've branded these children (children! sixth graders!) "perverts", rapists, and advocated their remaining childhoods be spent in juvenile detention.

That honestly frightens me.

[closeupready]

248. They are a reflection of a sick society where touching another person is considered offensive.

so I'm not sure your views are out of date, but they are sociopathological, since such views run counter to what it means to be human.

[NashVegas]

306. Touching Is NOT Forcible Groping

Jesus freaking christ ...

[closeupready]

310. Yes, okay, I failed to make that distinction, correct.

Nonetheless, Americans touch each other hardly, if at all, and only after getting 'permission.'

For example, in trying to get off a crowded subway car, people will shout "Coming Out!" rather than just nudge people out of the way, as they do in other cultures. Anecdotal, yes, but that's my firm opinion. YMMV.

[NashVegas]

313. We're Not Talking About That

We're talking about 11 year old girls being forcibly mishandled, and a handful of idiots in this thread who think the dysfunctional clowns doing it are just "boys being boys."

[closeupready]

315. That's what I am talking about. That is MY point.

n/t

[closeupready]

316. Further, I don't think anyone, even those who claim 'boys will be boys', think groping is okay.

Esp. not without the consent of the girl. Show me a SINGLE post where someone said that it was okay.

[NashVegas]

319. For Starters

You've got one poster, in particular, repeatedly referring to the incident and others like it, "touching." Others calling it "copping a feel" .. what I'd consider a much more gray area. That one's often a trespass, but at least it's a trespass that usually occurs when the copped party was in some sort of other voluntary contact.

[closeupready]

327. Okay, then, I agree it's worse than simply 'touching' as if it were brushing inadvertently against

someone's arm. 'Copping a feel', though, has always had a predatory tone to it, IMO, though society has changed in terms of now, the consensus seems to be it's wrong and punishable, whereas in earlier years, it was kind of a bad boy type of behavior, not that serious, almost expected of 'red-blooded American males'.

[NashVegas]

305. This Is Not "Touching"; This Is Assault

"Touching" is something you do in a consensual situation. Forcible sexual groping IS assault.

Deal with it.

[frustrated_lefty]

177. Every single day, by example.

And, if you find they've mistreated a young lady, you bust their ass.

[enlightenment]

127. The would not be charged with rape.

Sexual assault, perhaps. And yes, there are a few states that classify rape as sexual assault - but we're not talking about adults doing this to minors, are we?

I'm in your age group, I get what you're saying - but clearly you were raised in a very insular environment if what you say is true, and your life experience doesn't change the fact that grabbing a tit - or even trying to stick a hand up a skirt - is not rape.

When all assaults are conflated under a single term, it does nothing but dilute the seriousness of the crime of rape. All I'm asking you to do is not conflate this behaviour with rape. It's not rape if an adult does it.

[dysfunctional press]

229. and there are different degrees of sexual assault, just like with murder.

someone who cops a feel isn't going to be charged with the same degree of sexual assault as an actual rapist.

[Raster]

175. "If an adult did this..." An adult did NOT do this. An 11 year-old did.

A bit of perspective is a good thing.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

253. I think you're forgetting that this was non-consensual. n/t

[NickB79]

459. If an adult did this in public to another adult, he would likely receive probation

Which is a far cry from your call in previous posts to lock up an 11-yr old for 7 years in juvie.

[verges]

122. What rape?

An 11 year old CHILD expressing curiosity of the opposite sex in an inappropriate way is hardly rape! Geez. The kid doesn't know any better. Educate him. When that fails, then get nasty.

[seabeyond]

216. 11 yr old KNOWS better and not about curiosity. that is just an excuse. nt

[PassingFair]

235. A suspension should occur.

And if the girl is traumatized, the 11 year old
should be transferred to a new school.

Sorry, it's assault.

(Prison is unwarranted.)

[verges]

464. That is a reasonable response. nt

[snooper2]

242. Jesus H. Fucking Christ...

Hey Joey...I'll give you those extra wheels off my skateboard if you grab Stacy's tit...

Okay!


Ozymanithrax catches Joey in the act and proceeds to cane him. Then send him to juvie for seven years to room with the 12 year old who killed 45 cats... :eyes:


Is leering rape in your mind as well?

[seabeyond]

250. what are you suggesting with your example. that it simply is not a big deal grabbing stacy's tit?nt

[snooper2]

257. Of course not, that's what you are trying to get everyone to say...

"boy's will be boy's"

I would say the vast majority of kids of both gender know from kindergarden on about inappropriate touching. Are there some punks in school that do shit like this...yep Do children and pre-teens push limits and cross boundries...yep

Should they get a week or two week suspension...yep..

Should the parents be called in to discuss...yep..


Is society saying this isn't a big deal and we are grooming a whole new generation of pedophiles and rapists. Um no...so calm down and work on that grammar :evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

264. dictorial much? yup.

geez

calm down
work on grammer

hey... yes, that is what i want to hear. "kids of both gender know from kindergarden on about inappropriate touching"

and yes, there is a problem with the number of people that excuse this behavior with boy curious, and doesnt know better. we all know he does.

dude, that is pretty damn calm.

[RedRoses323]

380. LOL

:rofl:

[Zoeisright]

396. Do you even KNOW what sexual assault is??

Do you KNOW that touching another person without their consent is assault?

Educate yourself before you spout off.

[Indenturedebtor]

453. Yes and we should also jail all children who get in fights

I don't know where you went to school but it was like lord of the flies until I graduated.

That doesn't make it ok... but seriously: lord of the flies.

[tonysam]

243. That isn't rape. Quit twisting the meaning of the word n/t

[closeupready]

246. I'm sorry, but that's completely ridiculous, based upon my reading of the story.

:eyes:

[redqueen]

281. Was your intent to start a flamewar? That punishment obviously does not fit the crime.

But hey, your bait worked wonders!

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

284. it is such an absurd suggestion, along with death penalty or castration.....

feels like such snark, but sure does allow guys to focus elsewhere and point fingers

[redqueen]

289. Yep... it provides a very convenient distraction from the issue. (nt)

[Xithras]

330. In California, at least, the max punishment for this is one year in prison.

Grabbing a clothed womans breast, on the first offense, is Misdemeanor Sexual Battery. I know this because there's a case in the local news at the moment of someone who did exactly the same thing. The maximum sentence is a year in prison. The typical sentence for someone with no other criminal record is probation and a fine.

The only qualifier here is the fact that the victim was 11. Technically, the law doesn't provide a minimum charging age, so anyone touching an 11 year old ANYWHERE could theoretically be charged with Lewd & Lascivious Acts With A Minor Under 14, which is a felony that can land you on the predatory sex offender rolls for life, and stick you in prison for 50 years. California does have laws that minimize the charges that can be levied against teens having sex if they're within 3 years of age (though it's still a chargeable offense), but those laws have a lower limit of 15 years of age. Under the letter of the law, an 11 year old touching an 11 year old is a felony. In practice, those charges would only be levelled in the case of a forcible penetrative rape. Simply "grabbing" the victim would be charged as sexual battery unless the attacker has a demonstrated history of this sort of thing.

[Nailzberg]

8. Boys grabbing girls boobs is hardly a "new" trend.

Somebody better tell KTLA about the bullies assaulting nerds on the playground.

[Hannah Bell]

10. really. "alarming new fearmongering"

[Canuckistanian]

18. The term is new, but the concept is ancient

I'll bet that "Lucy" (Australopithecus afarensis) got felt up.

[seabeyond]

35. assaulted. when it is done WITHOUT consent, it is assaulted. not "felt up".

what is wrong with you guys. yes it happens. it happened in the past. it is an assault now, was in past. it is wrong. it isnt cute. it isnt funny. it is a violation, offensive, criminal.

[Canuckistanian]

51. I never said that being "felt up" was an accepted or consensual act

I just said it was done.

It wasn't acceptable in the 70s and it isn't now.

[seabeyond]

55. being felt up is to kids fooling around mutually. being grabbed is assault without permission is

assault.

[Canuckistanian]

71. Not where I come from

It was never usually consensual. More like "bragging points".

[seabeyond]

75. you never felt up a girl with consent? only against her will? and when friends told you

or you bragged, about feeling a girl up without her consent, did anyone challenge you, or did you all think it cool.

just a step or two from condoning rape.

[Canuckistanian]

81. And again, you make assumptions

I never said I did it. It was done. Period.

[Xithras]

428. Technically it's not "assault", it's "battery".

Unlawful physical content, even of a sexual nature, that does not include the use of violence is battery. And yes, it's treated as a lesser crime.

If an 11 year old boy grabs an 11 year old girls boob as they walk by each other, it's battery.

If an 11 year old boy forcibly pins an 11 year old girl to the wall and feels her up, it's assault.

The difference is the use of violence during the nonconsensual contact. And yes, the punishments are different.

[seabeyond]

429. thank you for the clarification. again i would like to stress, using the proper word

and you seem to have provided that is important, so we dont dismiss it as mere play, curiosity or being a boy. but i am in no way suggesting criminal action. school and parents handling it works for me

[Initech]

37. My friends and I call it "bean-dipping" but unlike these guys we have standards.

Mainly we use it on each other, never the girls. Unless they do it to us first, then it's fair game. :evilgrin:

[SirRevolutionary]

222. Watch, they'll do a whole article on wedgies next week

[blueworld]

397. I'm glad you brought up the point

It's one of the things that bugs me the most about so-called "news" these days. Create a furor or panic where none is necessary.

Idiotic behavior by 11-yr-old kids, boys or girls, isn't news. Parents, Teachers or administrators should deal with it.
Underwear up the flag pole, groping, bra snapping, wedgies, stealing clothes out of someone else's locker etc. All obnoxious & immature, but hardly newsworthy.

[redqueen]

283. It didn't happen where I went to school... so it's new to some people, obviously. (nt)

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

9. not alarming not new

boys do stupid things when they are that age. Provide an appropriate level of discipline and move on.

[redqueen]

285. Yes, it is alarming.

It is alarming that any kids think this is ok.

Same goes for bullying... this kind of crap can't be given any tolerance. It's just flat-out wrong. No more rationalizing or excuse-making.

[rcrush]

11. When I was in high school someone did that to a girl that some of us were friends with.

The guy who groped her ended up with a couple black eyes a few days later. He never did it again.

[seabeyond]

40. there we go. finally. an appropriate response from a guy. thank you. nt

[proteus_lives]

50. Yep.

It's idiot behavior, not necessarily predator behavior. At that age a boot in the ass goes a long way.

[flvegan]

13. WTF?

Foot to the balls, girls.

[LeftyMom]

36. Knee.

Easier to land. And then when he bends over, you whap him again in the bridge of the nose.

[Fleshdancer]

457. shin

because we tend to be shorter, women can't always reach the desired destination with just the knee. If you bring the knee up, be sure to also extend the leg at the knee and kick with the purpose of sending his testicles up through his throat.

Krav Maga rocks.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Is this the modern day version of "copping a feel"?

That was the term in the 50's.

It was a good way to get whacked with a textbook.

[immoderate]

15. Wow! Imagine. I think I'll name it "copping a feel!"

No, I'm not condoning it (now) but in my adolescence, I was once a boy...

--imm

[seabeyond]

42. "I was once a boy..." and you were so poorly raised? or you just thought you were so special

you could assault a girl without her permission? cute?

[immoderate]

146. I was expecting this...

It's obvious I was poorly raised and privileged. Perhaps 50+ years ago, I was not as enlightened as I am today. (You'll have to give me the benefit of the doubt here, though I'm not taking that for granted.) And the punching and kicking that I got for it ... well I didn't think of that as assault either.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't condone it? Why did you ignore that?

--imm

[MineralMan]

218. I agree. Getting felt up is part of a mutually agreed experimentation.

"Copping a feel" from some unsuspecting person is grounds for a bloody nose.

What my father told me at about that age was that boobs, etc. were off limits except by consent. He didn't put it in those words, though. I think the gist of what he said was, "Don't be grabbing girls' titties or crotches. That's not right."

I didn't.

[redqueen]

286. How hard is that to teach?

How hard is it to learn?

[MineralMan]

296. Not very hard on either count.

My father told me; I listened. Never groped anyone without consent and cooperation.

[seabeyond]

298. exactly MM. and we all know it. it is the pretending otherwise i have issue with. none of this is

hard

[redqueen]

331. It amazes me that so many guys insist it's impossible to teach.

I wonder if it isn't more of a rationalization than an assertion... but why they'd want to rationalize it I don't know.

[MineralMan]

344. That's a crock. Guys don't have some sort of uncontrollable urge

to grab the boobs of every woman they see. That's just ridiculous. When my father told me it wasn't nice to do that sort of thing, I accepted that and didn't do it. I probably wouldn't have anyhow, since we learned all through childhood to respect others.

I suspect that being nice and respectful had its own reward. I seem to remember a lot of consensual groping of parts from those days. I got along pretty well with girls...in large part because I treated them with respect.

As they say, "Nice guys finish last."

[seabeyond]

346. bingo on your post MM. nt

[redqueen]

353. Yep... glad to see that at least a few guys get it.

:)

[MineralMan]

365. Oh, I think most guys get it. It's just that the few Neanderthalers

who don't just love to get all vocal about it and stuff. Most guys have never once groped someone's breasts who wasn't a consenting person. I don't know a single man who has ever done that. Oh, we like fondling breasts well enough...but it's only fun with the cooperation of the woman, it always seemed to me.

I wouldn't judge the men on DU based on the "boys will be boys" crowd. They're a minority, but a vocal one.

[seabeyond]

368. Most guys have never once groped someone's breasts who wasn't a consenting person

you have not seen a single one. my husband does not recall a single guy doing this. both sons have seen no boys do this. yet they want to label it normal and give to all guys.

i will take what you say to heart, that it is a small group....

thanks for this.

[redqueen]

371. Aha... thanks.

Glad to know that. :)

[Mopar151]

422. It's way more fun, too! n/t

[ohheckyeah]

20. The last guy who tried that with me got an elbow in the face.

Many parents consider it sexual assault? Why don't all parents consider it sexual assault? That's what it is.

[EFerrari]

24. A silly drunk did it to me when I was cocktailing for a weekend.

My SO was opening a bar in Bellingham. It was funny because there was a cop eating in the dining room and I asked him if he'd help me get an apology from this customer. Which he did and very graciously, too. lol

[ohheckyeah]

27. Good.

An apology was the least you deserved.

[seabeyond]

44. why the fuck dont these grown men on this thread think it is assault instead of their RIGHT

to fuckin assault a girl and then giggle about it.

[ohheckyeah]

58. Good question.

Boys need to be taught to keep their hands to themselves.

[liquid diamond]

156. Face it. That's never going to happen.

This act is part of growing up. It happened when I was a kid in the 90's. Some posters say it happened way back in the 50's. What the hell makes you think anything will change? Sending a few kids to juvenile hall isn't going to change young male behavior.

[geek tragedy]

167. Permissive, indulgent "boys will be boys" apologia will help insure

that these kids grow up to be rapists.

[seabeyond]

180. "isn't going to change young male behavior. " ... since the strong majority of boys make it thru

preteen knowing this is not appropriate behavior, i hardly think we need pin this on all young male behavior. most young male know this behavior is wrong

[LanternWaste]

275. Institutionalized racism was once also part of growing up.

Institutionalized racism was once also part of growing up. There are many, many things our culture and our collective mores can move beyond once an actual recognition of the problem begins.

May we apply your "...act is part of growing up" rule to the institutionalized racism of earlier generation? If not, what is the precise and relevant difference?

[liquid diamond]

400. A young child's sexual curiosity is not comparable with

racism. You sicken me.

[redqueen]

406. Sexual curiosity is not analogous to sexual battery. (nt)

[LanternWaste]

410. What is the precise and relevant difference?

"It happened when I was a kid in the 90's. Some posters say it happened way back in the 50's. What the hell makes you think anything will change? Sending a few kids to juvenile hall isn't going to change racism."

Simply replace racism in the sentence with groping and let us know what the precise and relevant difference is?

However I am curious-- first you implied the act itself has been part and parcel of our history and thus not a big deal. Now you appear to be trimming that back to mere curiosity rather than acting on the curiosity. Which one is it? And will you stick to that rather than consistently moving your own goalposts when convenient...?

[1awake]

268. This isn't about boys..

It's about kids. Where I live now.. currently.. it's the girls doing this type of thing. They do three things. The first is pulling the boys pants down, second is trying to kick boys in their privates whenever possible, and the third is grabbing the boys privates and squeezing hard.

Let's not even get into how the girls punch, kick and slap the boys knowing 9 times out of 10 the boys won't do anything in return. It's not a boy nor a girl thing but a kid thing and needs to be dealt with quickly and strictly.. but not through overreaction.

[seabeyond]

273. this is a big issue i had with boys growing up. especially at younger ages i saw the girls

take advantage of this and the teachers say toughin up, to the boys. i think the schools are pretty educated and tough disciplining the boys who do this. i dont think they are giving equal punishment to the girls and i think it needs to be done

[musette_sf]

92. + 1,000,000,000

And 11 is WAY old enough to know it is wrong.

Unless he's already learned from older males that it's "no big deal".

[seabeyond]

96. already learned from older males that it's "no big deal".

exactly. i have a poster challenging me on knowing everything my boys are doing, of course they assault girls, they dont know any better, and just curious about female body.

my boys would truly be outraged to hear that.

[musette_sf]

134. see post 133

From little harassers, big assaulters grow.

[verges]

129. Nobody is condoning this. NOBODY!

People are saying that there is a difference between a stupid move by a sexually curious 11 year old; and a sexual felon. Certainly this behavior should be punished, but sending the kid to Juvie for seven years or branding him a sex offender is ridiculous. An 11 year old is still figuring out how the world works. Educate! And that form of education can indeed be punishment.

[seabeyond]

181. firstly many guys are condoning it with bullshit like boys will be boys. second

ONE person said juvie, ONE. so hardly what msot people are talking about. third, bullshit with the curiour. fuckin bullshit. it is the same power over bullshit as rape then brag to friends. and hell yes a 11 yr old knows it is wrong and much younger know it is wrong and more of that bullshit condoning saying they simply dont know better

[Skittles]

143. they wouldn't think the same if it's done to their daughters

hence their extreme hypocrisy

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

145. you may be a little overboard here

the grown men are not saying it is their right.
we are saying this happens between young teenagers
When it does, it is not new.
yes, we need to train our sons not to do this.
But learning women for men is hard, and boys get it wrong some times.

I say this thread too alarmist and hard on boy's

asked my daughters what they thought.
the older one "depends on who the boy is"
i tryed really hard to hide my reaction to that one.
the younger said "i would kick his ass"

parenting sucks but it will get better soon I hope

[seabeyond]

186. it isnt telling your boys not to grab a girls breast. it is teaching son respect to females and her

body.

the boy doesnt need to be taught not to grab a breast, he knows better, everything in culture, society has told him not to. it is the guy that has learned that it is his right, he has the power, he gets to do it... that mentality, that allows him to do. and yes, it is a matter of male right. a female body, in ogling or touching or in some cases rape seems to be the mentality of male right. that takes a lifetime of conditioning.

[redqueen]

294. !!!!! Best post in the thread!

:yourock:

[SmileyRose]

185. +++ a billion

[redqueen]

291. THAT is the best question on the thread.

"Aw it's just something boys do!" is an insult to boys.

Not all boys are unable/unwilling to control their impulses.

[closeupready]

317. Who did that?

??

[theorbiter]

357. Ummm...

I do not believe ANYONE is stating these behaviors are RIGHTS of the young boys.

Earlier you stated "11 year olds know better", uhhh NO THEY DON'T.
The absurd and and intellectually dishonest idea that an 11 year old should be sent to Juvenile detention for 7 years over this behavior is devoid of both logic and critical thought as well as being reactionary and replete with emotional grandstanding garbage. This topic also brings to light the current trend of words having no meaning. This behavior is in NO WAY akin to RAPE. Seriously...are people really this out of touch?

God have mercy if you have children.

[seabeyond]

364. "11 year olds know better", uhhh NO THEY DON'T." uuuh yes they do. i said nothing about jail

well, that isnt true, i have said something about jail, it is a ridiculous absurdity to suggest jail for these kids.

your whole post is on grandstanding. might want to do a little reflecting

both my boys easily know it is wrong. i gotta wonder about your position that boys are clueless and why you would sell out a 11 yr old boy as you do. not boys expect me to stand up for them, not drag them to stupid..... it is your very proclamation that boys at 11 dont know it is wrong to grab a girls tit that is part of the problem

[theorbiter]

378. Sorry...

you are incorrect and just about any child psychologist worth their salt will tell you so. 11 year old children do not have the capacity to comprehend the long term results of behavior. Sorry just a fact. So it would be nice if they understood the consequences of instantly gratifying behaviors and possessed concrete ideas of right from wrong but since they are 11 they simply DO NOT.

Of course, and predictably so, you will confuse my post with your old boys will be boys meme.

[seabeyond]

385. a first grader knows to keep hands off. so they keep hands off. repercussion is punishment

of some kind. this concept of keep hands off is not new for the 11 yr old. they are well aware to keep hands off. they may not get sexual assault and rape yet, but they damn well know they are not suppose to grab the boob.

so yes,

they do know it is wrong. seeing how the strong majority of 11 yr olds dont grab tits, i dont see how you can continue to say an 11 yr old is not capable of knowing it is wrong to grab a tit. i do know that all those 11 yr old boys that know it is wrong will be insulted by some adult that insist they do not know it is wrong.

[theorbiter]

388. I know I know...

you're a right fighter as your persistence in this thread has proven. Remember the repetition of ideas does not make it truth. No, an 11 year old has very little concept of LONG TERM consequences of their actions. Implying a need for harsh punishment IE; 7 years in Juvenile hall for this boys behavior shows that it is a distinct possibility that you also have not grasped this concept.

Teaching a child a CONCEPT of hands off is nice on paper but so many factors come into play with regards to childrens behavior choices. Peer pressure, hormones, underdeveloped brains, lack of critical thinking etc etc. This is why legally and morally, reasonable people do not expect children to always make the right choices and we do not punish them like adults when they fail to do so. Simple concept really.....you should look into it.

[seabeyond]

392. then i guess you also know i never suggested 7 yrs of jail.

Peer pressure, hormones, underdeveloped brains, lack of critical thinking etc

or just plain male privilige.... since we seem to be giving all the reasons a boy knowing it is wrong, chooses to do it. which i think, is what those of us stating the boy knows the wwong is saying, simply. so where is the argument

[LWolf]

74. + 1,000,000

The last guy that tried that with me got my boot in his nuts and my large soda over his head.

I was 14. He was stalking me in the movie theater. I changed seats 3 times and he kept moving too, sitting right behind me. When he reached over the seat and grabbed, I stood up and turned around, he stood up, I kicked him flat, dumped my large coke over his head and found a different seat. He didn't follow me again.

[KonaKane]

22. What's "new" about this? And no, I'm not condoning it.

I'm just amazed at how often a new generation thinks they have invented something of this nature. Funny.

[redqueen]

299. It didn't happen where I went to school.

It is indeed new to some people.

[Qanisqineq]

23. a guy did this to my friend and I

back in high school. We all lived out in the country and had to ride the bus. He sat behind me, leaned over my seat and talked to me. He then reached over and down my shirt. He tried the same with my friend. We went to the principal and we had a choice: he could get kicked off the bus or he could sit up front with the first and second graders. We chose the latter.

[Kaleva]

39. Making him up front in the bus was probably the worst punishment possible.

When I was in school, the biggest and strongest boys sat in the back of the bus. Once, I once dared to go to the back were the older boys were but a few punches taught me I wasn't ready for prime time yet so I quickly went to a seat in the middle of the bus.

[Celebration]

26. happened to me a couple of times

in school over forty years ago. It was sort of like pickpocketing. I wasn't even sure who did it, because the halls were very crowded. I was pissed off, of course, but I can't say it had any other effect on me. I wouldn't have wanted the guy who did it to have anything worse than a three day suspension. But that would have suited me fine. Couldn't really report it without knowing who did it. I might not have anyway.

[RB TexLa]

28. Put cameras in the schools, arrest, convict and put them in prison.

[anonymous171]

29. I still say Death Penalty.

Might as well go all out if we are handing out cruel and unusual punishments to 6th graders.

[verges]

131. If a lot of people on this thread had their way,

eventually that is what might happen. Some seem to want the kid thrown into Juvie or branded a sex offender! Which, I'm inclined to think would more likely result in a continuance of criminal behavior. Is a bad 11 year old already socially unredeemable?

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scout]

30. sorry to be so blunt, but this is where you must teach girls this:

"feel my boobs? then feel my fist."

and punch him one right in the fucking snot locker.

then they will all leave you alone.

i'm sick to death of boys being fucking assholes. oh yeah, yeah, here's the disclaimer: not ALL boys do this, yadda yadda blah blah.

[XemaSab]

45. word

n/t

[Warpy]

48. That's what I got taught

and I had a damned good right cross.

While I don't generally think two wrongs make a right and I am opposed to violence, nothing gets the point across that you don't appreciate sexual assault like a solid punch in the nose.

[Telly Savalas]

90. That's not two wrongs making a right.

That's a wrong and a corrective action which establishes clear boundaries of acceptable behavior. Although when I have this talk with my daughter in a couple years, I'll encourage her to go after a target more vulnerable than the nose. (Yeah, maybe it's time to lose the Gandhi avatar--but I really like the quote.)

[Scout]

93. but they expect you to go after those! and a good black eye or broken nose

from a girl is a badge of shame ;)

[havocmom]

450. Yep, that's what a woman's self defense coach told us

Do NOT go for the groin. Go for face (or shins, instep if both people are standing.)

While basically non-violent, I do feel there are times to clean clocks. This would be one of those times. We need to make sure girls understand they do not have to put up with abuse and just be silent, passive victims.

And if a young male does not get the message clearly and seemed prone to serial groping, he damned well should be dealt with by officials, either school, or on to law enforcement and mental health care if the crap doesn't stop PDQ.

[rcrush]

49. Or if they have to get a big guy friend to do it for you

Some girls did that in my high school. Some guy got handsy with someones girlfriend or sister then the stoners would go kick his ass lol. It usually had to be someone the stoners knew though.

[Xithras]

168. In my sisters case, she called her brother

I don't condone violence, but I also don't condone guys grabbing my little sisters boobs. He didn't do it again.

[seabeyond]

52. i was in cafeteria line and wasn't the breast he was after. i turned on him, had my tray

at his throat and shoved him up against the wall yelling at him not to ever do that again.

i was the one that ended up embarrassed to hell.

i will never forget that. just makes me sick that any boy thinks he has the right to be so invasive and guys on this thread see it as no bigger than copping a feel or feeling a girl up.

assholes. fuckin pathetic, assholes.

it didnt dawn on me to turn him in. i didnt see it as assault. just i embarrassed myself in front of everyone there.

[Scout]

69. i was in the cafeteria line....

and it was pretty crowded, and felt a hand on my ass crack sliding toward my crotch ...

nice, firm elbow to the solar plexus, a strange little "oof" noise and the hand moved.

ha. asshole.

[mvccd1000]

158. It didn't dawn on you to turn him in...

... at that age, but for some reason all those kids today are expected to know better? 11-year-olds are still 11-year-olds. Just because you've gained X number of years of experience since then does not mean that today's 11-year-olds have that same experience.

While I learned from my parents that such behavior is never acceptable and never tried it, obviously some kids don't learn that at home. You apparently prefer that they learn it in jail, rather than from a principal or teacher.

I hope you're never in a position of responsibility around kids.

[seabeyond]

183. i have two boys that would never consider it acceptable. tell me where i said JAIL. where

in all my posts did i say JAIL. oh wait.... i said specifically in that subthread said NOT jail...... ridiculous.

you worry about me raising kids, but your bullshit storytelling is a problem raising kids too, that you lack honesty while lecturing....

again... you brand of condoning behaior. kids this age know perferctly well it is wrong. you sell kids short

[mvccd1000]

191. Kids know this is wrong?

How do kids know ANYTHING is wrong until they're taught? As I said, my parents taught me. I'm guessing that either nobody taught these kids that particular distinction, or nobody taught them about consequences for their action. (Just as nobody apparently taught you at that age what you should have done when you encountered the situation.)

You learned from your experience. How do you propose to have these kids learn from theirs? Not jail, but you have no issue with putting them on a sexual offender registry for the rest of their lives?

I still think you're way overboard.

[seabeyond]

194. no issue with putting them on a sexual offender registry .. what BULLSHIT. no one said sex offender

list. do you just have an innate issue with honest conversation?

no one has to tell an 11 yr old boy dont grab a tit. they KNOW that it is wrong to grab a girls tit. they do it on the sly, they try to get away with it, they know punishment is there if they are caught. ALL little boys knowing grabbing a girls tit is going to result in punishment

what the boys lack is an environment where female respect is a given. where the little boy has responsibility in his action. where the boy will be boys mentality doesnt work.

[closeupready]

318. Thank you. +1000

n/t

[seabeyond]

321. i get assaulted and you guys are thumbs up i shouldnt be a parent. amazing shit. nt

[closeupready]

322. You are posting hysterically.

I have always been on your side, from Roman Polanski to teacher rape of male minor students, but I strongly part ways with you on this topic.

[seabeyond]

326. ahhhh, now i am hysterical along with not needing to be raising kids. please tell me

where i am hysterical. and i want to see hysterical. because that is what you are accusing me of. and of course, your accusation is just, you would not be extreme here.

[yurbud]

104. punch him in the throat. It will leave a more lasting message

[AwakeAtLast]

132. But then the girl gets suspended for fighting

My 7 y/o has had problems with boys just getting in her face. She has defended herself and gotten sent to the office. For defending herself from boys who are openly getting in her face. :(

[liquid diamond]

157. Do you really think it is a good idea for a young girl to get into

a physical altercation with a young boy? I've seen it. It isn't usually pretty for the female.

[Scout]

276. yes. he will not leave her alone otherwise. adult intervention won't work,

and ignoring bullies doesn't work.

if you hit 'em first and fast, your odds are pretty good.

especially if they are both 11 ... girls are often bigger than boys at that age.

[liquid diamond]

401. And what's to stop the boy

from retaliating later? Violence is not the answer in this case.

[Scout]

407. and what is to stop him later if she DOESN'T punch him one....

i tell you what, the bullies didn't leave me alone until i punched them....

sometimes violence IS the answer ... that's what assholes understand...

what's to stop him from retaliating if she "tells" someone hmmmm? not a fucking thing. and if he is enough of an asshole to lay in wait and retaliate later, then he's got larger problems.

ignoring this behavior and passing it off as the "sexual curiosity of a young child" is what's sickening.

[seabeyond]

416. i think bringing it to mere sexual curiosity is the grossiest in not calling it what it is. rape....

hey.... jsut sexually curious. do you blame the young boy that is sexually curious adn no girl would fuck him, so surely you understand, being sexually curious, he had to rape her to see what it was like and appease that curiosity.

i mean

what the fuck are men saying here

[redqueen]

420. It's not rape, though. It's sexual battery.

Rape is FAR more serious and scarring than this. I'm surprised to see you calling it that.

[seabeyond]

421. i am not calling it rape. i am saying, to suggest this is merely sexual curiosity. do you think

boys are sexually curious about actual sex and not just what a boob feels like. do you think, a boy is sexually curious, he rapes adn we will say, ... the boy was sexually curious.

the sexually curious, and an action because of that curiosity, as if that is an excuse, is absolutely something we do not want to give to our boys. how far do they get to take their sexual curiosity.

[redqueen]

425. Ah yes, I see what you're saying...

you'te right... this behavior is a far, far cry from sexual curiosity... and it's sad how many are so desperate to believe that it is the same thing.

Sexual curiosity is natural and normal... can't help but wonder what goes on in someone's mind that makes it possible for them conflate sexual battery with simple sexual curiosity.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. This is new?

How is this new? This is just a new name applied to the same old ugly behavior.

[Cleita]

38. Arnold our Governor used to do that kind of action on his movie sets

to women who were on his crews. Yes, it is sexual assault but when we have role models for our children like our Governor, what's a parent to do to when children see that you can be a perfect jerk, suffer no consequences, and still do well in life?

[rcrush]

43. No one ever kicked him in the balls

Guys like that usually back off as soon as someone kicks them in the nuts or they get an elbow in the face.

[Cleita]

53. Those women would have been black balled in the industry if they had

done anything like that. They had to endure. Those movie jobs are very good paying. Some of them did press charges when he ran for governor but he shut them up somehow and the cases disappeared or were dropped.

[Liberal_in_LA]

455. He was a massively built body builder at the time.

[saltpoint]

41. Didn't know the current terminology but recognize the activity from

some decades ago. Likely it's older than all of us put together and then some.

I would't call it "new."

[proteus_lives]

47. That's just groping.

And it is assault.

[Cleita]

57. It is sexual assault. I wonder if the girls grabbed the boys by the nuts and

squeezed if it would be handled so casually.

[scheming daemons]

63. They're 11 year olds for chrissakes.... not able to distinguish what they're doing is wrong

This mindset that kids are just "tiny adults" is ridiculous.


Holding an 11-year-old to the same standards you hold a grown-up is ridiculous.

[Cleita]

78. Hey I beat up a bully in my class who kept pulling my hair and doing other

harrassing things to me (not sexual) when I was eleven years old. You should have seen the shock. When it was me getting pummeled, all I heard from the adults that 'boys will be boys, ignore him' meme. I got fed up and beat the crap out of him after school one. I almost got suspended from school. Girls didn't behave that way according to the adults. We were both eleven and knew exactly what we were doing. Also, middle school is twelve, thirteen and fourteen, already teenagers and sexually maturing. Sure they shouldn't be punished like adults but the adults need to impress them with the fact that it's very wrong and it is sexual assault.

[raccoon]

225. A-fucking-men! Stiill a lot of that mindset around.

"When it was me getting pummeled, all I heard from the adults that 'boys will be boys, ignore him' meme. I got fed up and beat the crap out of him after school one. I almost got suspended from school. Girls didn't behave that way according to the adults."

[Odin2005]

114. If a 11yo boy doesn't understabd that groping is wrong then...

...that boy is seriously fucked up.

[redqueen]

300. They're not able to distinguish that grabbing private parts is wrong? At 11?

Really?

That's just asinine.

[Fleshdancer]

314. 11 year olds know this is wrong.

Do you think there are "games" where 11 year old boys attempt to touch a girl's arm? Her knee? No. The boys who do this are grabbing the breasts because their female classmates are developing them at this age and the boys know it's sexual in nature.

Not able to distinguish what they're doing is wrong? That's insulting to 11 yr old boys.

[WinkyDink]

374. You are very wrong about 11-year-olds. Sixth-grade is not third. Girls are developing (see story).

ELEVEN-YEAR-OLDS ARE HIP to the REALITY.

[readmoreoften]

399. That is total bullshit. Many 6th graders are practically having sex these days.

And many 6th grade girls are completely developed sexually. Being sexually groped in the hallway may just be "fun" for an 11 year old boy, but it can be sexually scarring for an 11-year old girl.

[noamnety]

448. That's bullshit - "they don't know it's wrong."

Bullshit. They damned straight know it's wrong.

Don't believe me? Ask yourself when was the last time they got sent to the principal's office and grabbed the principal's crotch? You telling me they don't know if that's okay or not?

When they assault girls, the issue isn't that they can't figure out if it's right or wrong. It's instead that they figure they can get away with it.

[proteus_lives]

68. Boys and girls should react the same way.

Give the groper a shot to the chops. Then the groping stops.

[scheming daemons]

77. Yep. Exactly.

That's how they learn.


Not prison time for preteens, for chrissakes.

[Kaleva]

97. see post #5

[Cleita]

110. That's wrong too. I never said it was right, however, I suspect that it was

less acceptable than the boys doing it, at least it would have been back in my era.

[Cleita]

111. That's wrong too. I never said it was right, however, I suspect that it was

less acceptable than the boys doing it, at least it would have been back in my era.

[Kaleva]

117. I never heard of girls grabbing boys when I was in school.

But that was back in the days when the only single moms were widows and pregnant girls either disappeared or dropped out of school to get married.

[seabeyond]

187. ONE poster says girls grab guys too, all posters say guys grabbing girl not new

hardly on the same playing field. send her ass to the office and suspend too. will be good for her. i can equally see a boy being embarrassed if unknown girl, or unwanted girl grabbed his crotch. it is wrong. and it is the same power thing if genders reversed. takes away choice.

[scheming daemons]

56. And those of us who aren't reactionary call it "normal pre-teen behavior"

...the likes of which has been going on since homo sapiens first graced the planet

[ohheckyeah]

61. It's still wrong.

And preteens need to be taught that it's assault.

[seabeyond]

66. i dont buy it. i have two boys 15 and 12. all there friends, my sons dont grab girls boobs

none of them have ever thought that was normal behavior. all of them are well aware that is not acceptable behavior.

why the fuck would i give this shit to my sons and their friends, that it is just normal behavior. all the boys i know right now, at this age would be bothered being accused that this is who they are and that adults are giving this to them.

[scheming daemons]

73. You watch your 15 and 12 year old boys 24 hours a day?

If not... you have no idea what they have or haven't done when you aren't around to see.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

119. Mine know it's wrong.

We have two girls and two boys. Both boys know that their sisters will knock the living air they breathe out of them if they so much breathe on them disrespectfully. Everybody knows the boundaries as they've been established since they were toddlers and we are all expected to honor them. When someone from the outside makes a joke about it, they look at them as if they're crazy.

To think that every boy engages in 'scooping' or to think that it's ok because boys have been doing it so long is ridiculous and demeaning to both sexes, not just girls. I'm sure that men and boys who show self-control and respect wouldn't appreciate being thought of in such low terms.

[Dappleganger]

121. Sorry, that was meant for the poster above you. nt

[Kalyke]

324. I have a son who is nearly 11.

If I hear tell of him doing this (but he probably won't because his Mama taught him right), then he will have hell to pay from me.

I'd take him to the girl's house and make him apologize. I'd then take him to the police station so a seasoned cop could explain to him what sexual assault is and what kind of trouble he can get into if he doesn't learn to keep his hands to himself unless consensual.

I have cop friends - they'd do that for me in a heart beat. Scare him without arresting him.

[snooper2]

247. ( their friends ) not ( there friends )

We always have time for the grammar police :rofl:

[seabeyond]

251. yes, especially when it is so easy to dismiss grabbing stacys tit.

ah, btw, thank you. i about always get that one right. but not always. others i have issue with though.

[snooper2]

260. You infer way to much....

way too much...

[seabeyond]

265. clarification works well. i read your post above. so easy.

more calm.....

[scheming daemons]

67. Of course they need to be taught... but calling for prison time for an 11 year old

like some of the posts in this thread, is ridiculous.

[ohheckyeah]

70. Maybe a little field trip to visit

a prison is in order. But, no, I don't think prison time is appropriate.

[seabeyond]

87. one poster said prison. ONE..... nt

[Codeine]

162. Another has advocated castration.

Seriously, the idea that a "progressive" wants to slice the genitals off a child's body over a grope is indicative of how loony we can be on certain issues around here.

Imagine someone advancing on one of your sons with a sharpened knife in order to permanently sexually mutilate him over something as stupid as this.

[seabeyond]

189. i didnt see it. one said death penalty, pretty sure was sarcasm. nt

[noamnety]

449. What's an appropriate punishment for an 11 year old

who commits another crime - let's say breaking into a house and stealing a stereo?

Which is a more serious crime - stealing a stereo, or sexual assault?

[seabeyond]

62. normal for the guy to feel he has the right to grab without permission or wanting to be grabbed

no, it is not normal behavior. MOST boys KNOW that is not acceptable behavior. says a lot about the guy that thinks this is acceptable.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

72. do you have kids. are you clueless. they are well aware at a much younger age

appropriate behavior as far as anothers body.

that is just crazy

[scheming daemons]

76. I have a 15 year old and a 10 year old daughter....

And I understand human nature, apparently, much better than you do.


11 year old boys are not able to process the consequences of their actions like adults.


You calling for an 11 year old's head is amazing.


...and you are naive if you think your 15 and 12 year olds are little angels.

[seabeyond]

89. so, when your daughters are assaulted by all those boys that just dont know better

cannot process not touching private parts of girls (they learn in pre k) just let them know it is the way of the world, those poor little boys just cant help themselves

[Dappleganger]

124. If an 11 yr. old boy doesn't know sexual boundaries at that age...

that he may not just reach out and take what he wants, there is something HUGELY wrong with him. If he was a preschooler, sure, but 11 yr. olds do know better.

[LanternWaste]

348. I wasn't a very clever 11 year old

I wasn't a very clever 11 year old. However I was able to mentally and emotionally process a few things at that age-- stupid to put my hand in fire, humans can't fly, don't touch a person aggressively unless I want to be punished to name only a few of them.

And to be honest, I never did put my hand in fire, jump off a roof thinking I cold fly, or touched anyone in an aggressive manner.

[readmoreoften]

402. So when an 11 year old boy sticks his hands inside your daughter's underwear in the hallway,

you just tell her "boys will be boys" and that she should get over it and stop sulking.

Some father you are.

[Scout]

408. just because your kids don't know how to act properly when out of sight of their parents

doesn't mean everyone's don't.

she never said her sons are "angels" that's your word.

[Scout]

79. oh please "11 year olds haven't developed a full sense of right and wrong yet... "

11 year olds damn well are old enough to know that *this* behavior is wrong.

i knew better than this at that age, and i'm just your average person, no better or worse.

[scheming daemons]

85. They know lots of things are "wrong"... but they lack the understanding of how serious it is

They don't have the ability to empathize completely with someone else.


An 11 year old boy is curious about the female body... and sometimes he does something inappropriate in acting on that curiosity.

It doesn't make him a future child abuser, a bad person, or someone who should be locked up. It makes him an 11 year old who made a mistake and needs to be taught.

[Scout]

91. and i didn't say it DID make him any of those things, so who is the one lying now?

they damn well do know it is wrong, and they do it for the approval of their stupid little 11 year old friends, not because they are truly curious.

they know it is wrong, they DO IT ANYWAY because they don't give a fuck about the girl, and they know they are likely to get away with it because they are "just 11 year olds, boys will be boys."

[seabeyond]

98. do it for braggin rights. and then the little boys dont have the guts to call their friends

on it.

cowardly.

that is what these little boys are

and then

some little boys are actually raised properly, have learned respect, self respect, dont do it, dont like it, and call it out with other little fuckin boys.

[seabeyond]

94. both y boys would be really offended with your post. i had son read

another poster on here this afternoon. didnt give him any of my thoughts, just let him read the poster.

was on the ad to stop smoking, having it as a blow job. the poster said best way to talk to kids, can at least get their attention with sex

my son is like, what is this... that people think we are so stupid and cant comprehend. as if sex is the only thing a teenager is possible of. he was really offended. said his thinking process is probably beyond that particular poster.

you might want to make these kids stupid. but they arent. and you should know better, having two this age.

[Dappleganger]

125. Reaching out and groping w/out permission

is different than mutual or self-discovery. Gropers are takers, crossing over boundaries which were previously established because they believe they have control and that no one will stop them until they've had their momentary thrill.

Yes, 11 yr. olds know better. I really hope you grow out of this 'boys will be boys' mentality and not teach your daughters that they can be willing victims.

[spoony]

147. I'm pretty gobsmacked by the shrugging going on in this thread.

You're right.

[geek tragedy]

152. Lots of male supremacists here. nt

[seabeyond]

190. isnt it amazing. just amazing the boys will be boys. be gentle with our boys as they abuse girls

just amazing

[redqueen]

302. I'm not. Sickened, yes... but not surprised at all. (nt)

[redqueen]

301. It's not normal, it's wrong.

Do you think bullying is normal, too?

[NashVegas]

308. Forcible Groping Is NOT NORMAL

It's sociopathic.

[LanternWaste]

411. Based on what objective criteria?

Therefore, since I had never engaged in that behavior, I was abnormal? Based on what objective criteria?

[Tim01]

82. It's nothing new at all. nt

[kleec]

100. Unless the school

takes action to end this behavior they are at risk of losing their Title IX, or X federal funding, it's a federal law that is being broken. This isn't 'fooling around', this is a crime.

[BlueIris]

101. What ugly little felons these boys are.

Disturbing.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[musette_sf]

137. Okay, then they're future felons

See post 133

[Codeine]

141. They're kids.

Whether they touched an 11-year-old's boobies in the sixth grade has fuck-all to do with their future behavior.

Branding them felons and punishing them as rapists when they aren't even old enough think straight will be far more likely to result in a criminal future however, so just go on ahead demonizing kids as criminals, dude. :puke:

[seabeyond]

193. it is sexual assault. and saying the harsh word is a better learning scale for boys than a hug

and poor misguided boys bullshit

the teaching is in respecting females. they know not to grab a tit. they dont know how to respect females, hence why they grab the tit.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

160. 11-year-olds touching boobs is crass, tasteless, and classless.

But it is not fucking sexual assault. The fact that you can't read this won't change that.

[Name removed]

312. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

325. It's sickening and disturbing, the minimizing...

not surprising... but sickening and disturbing all the same.

Explains a lot, though. Like why date rape is so commonplace... and also rationalized ('he didn't know she was really saying no' kind of crap).

[NashVegas]

452. This Is Not Touching. This Is Sexual Assault And You're Defending It

Get help.

[Odin2005]

103. God Dammit, parents need to be teaching boys how to act like gentlemen and not do shit like this!

:grr:

[seabeyond]

105. yes... though some of the men seem to think boys cant learn.

that it is just part of growing up and exploration?????

[Codeine]

113. They absolutely can learn.

But condemning them as perverted rapists who need to be juvied until 18 is equally absurd. Clearly they should be called on their behavior, punished, and taught that shit ain't cool.

[seabeyond]

195. instead of the ONE poster saying juvie, MAYBE boys would be better served males not make excuses

and condoning the behavior and teach their sons respect to females.

[redqueen]

303. It's so funny how so many are so desperate to seize on one or two respones.

As if it's a trend... like sexually assaulting girls for laughs.

Weird.

[Odin2005]

116. Yep, the "Boys will be Boys" morans.

:puke:

[hayu_lol]

123. Probably the best way to stop this...

would have the entire student body together in an auditorium or cafeteria, perhaps by grade level, and explain why this behavior is not acceptable by any student at any time. Establish graduated penalties for such misbehavior and stick to it. Sometimes parents will not cooperate--perpetual problem for administrators/teachers. In those cases, let the police handle it. For the rest, with the parents help start with a 3 day suspension and office visit with the parents and get progressively heavier handed if there are repeat offenses.

With the few repeaters, require that if they stay in school, a parent must be with them all day...or suspension.

Long ago, we had reform school for repeat violators--they never came back to regular school.

Publish the new rules and give every student a copy. Post them in the hallways and in the affected classrooms. No exceptions.

[seabeyond]

196. i am sure the schools have addressed and have made clear. my oldest this morning told me

posters on here suggesting that the little boys simply dont know it is wrong is crap. that all the kids know this is wrong. and that it is the few that do this.

it is the attitude of the men on this board that is really bothersome and indicative of why this mentality continues on

but i agree with your accessment.

[WolverineDG]

107. But that's sexist & teaches girls to become dependent on men!!

At least that was the general consensus on DU a few days ago.

But yeah, sounds like the boys in this school need some extreme etiquette lessons pronto & the girls need some self-defense classes.

dg

[Tim01]

126. Yep. nt

[AnnieBW]

109. Teach your daughters - knee ->nuts -> problem solved

That's what my Dad taught me.

[4lbs]

112. Stuff like this has happened for decades in Japan.

If you are a woman, don't ride in a Japanese subway. If you are a parent, don't let your teenage daughter do it either.

The men there will feel free to 'cop a feel' as they see fit. 'Scooping' happens a lot to women there.

Japanese boys and girls are much more open and freer about sex than we seem to be. Several years ago, I read an article that talked about teenage Japanese schoolgirls doing boyfriend-swapping, having sex with each other's boyfriends and then talking about the experience(s) later. It became a status symbol to see how many of their friends' boyfriends they could have sex with.

I'm not judging whether it's right or wrong, but Japanese society seems to be somewhat comfortable with it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

144. It was a real problem when I went to Japan 30 years ago, but mostly for

Japanese women, who were taught not to react because "it might embarrass the man." It was known that Western women had no qualms about slapping faces (or stomping on feet, as I did, the one time it happened to me), so they were bothered less often.

This began to change in the 1980s, and it is no longer socially acceptable to grope in the subways, although it still happens.

[seabeyond]

197. oh bullshit.... their guys are humping pillows. nt

[salguine]

120. If my son did that to a girl, I'd kick his ass, then hand him over to her father. Of course,

before he ever got old enough to do something like that, I'd have sat down and talked to him and made certain that he knew that, if he ever did that to a girl, I'd kick his ass, then hand him over to her father.

[asdjrocky]

128. Try it once on my daughter you little bastards.

Sorry, oops, a Dad moment there. Actually my daughter was quite capable of taking care of herself at 11 as she is now at 20. I would pity the fool that tried that on her.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[musette_sf]

133. "A Culture of Indifference": Report on Campus Sexual Assault

And THIS is the result of NOT calling out sexual assault by boys. THIS is what happens when at 11, they learn it is "no big deal" and "boys will be boys".

From Feministing:
"A Culture of Indifference": Report on Campus Sexual Assault Reveals Inaction Taken by Schools, Education Department

In December, the Center for Public Integrity (CPI) released a report not only about the fact that 95% of college campus rapes go unreported, but that survivors who do report often get no justice. Today, they have followed up with solid results from a year-long study, revealing that school judicial systems sanction little to no punishment for students responsible for sexual assault, often leading to repeat offenders.

more at http://www.feministing.com/archives/020144.html

From the Center for Public Integrity:
A Lack of Consequences for Sexual Assault
Students Found “Responsible” Face Modest Penalties, While Victims are Traumatized

Article at http://www.publicintegrity.org/investigations/campus_assault/articles/entry/1945

[Kaleva]

138. school judicial systems?

If college students are committing serious crimes such as rape and sexual assault, shouldn't the matter be handled by the police and DA? The most a school can do against a rapist is expelling that person which isn't much of a punishment.

[fan of the arts]

135. The biggest problem of our century

other than the million other things more important.

[musette_sf]

136. Looks like you need a referral to:

the Feminism 101 blog:

FAQ: Why are you concentrating on X when Y is so much more important?

Arguing that Special Interest X should make way for Important Issue Y because “it’s so much more important”, especially when this is done in another person’s space, is disruptive. It is a very common trolling tactic, as well as a long acknowledged as a cheap rhetorical trick: just another red herring.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/faq-why-are-you-concentrating-on-x-when-y-is-so-much-more-important/

[fan of the arts]

140. I've always been pro equal rights for all, as if there's a human choice to not be

Torture, conspiracy to commit war, criminal banks, corrupt government, rigged elections, nuclear issues, civilian killing, chemical weapons, permanent war, propaganda, civil war, domestic terrorism, genocides, etc...are slightly more important than some teen sexually harassing someone and some other person creating a new slogan for it.

I won't go to your link and don't need a lecture.

[seabeyond]

198. girls take a back seat... again, cause assault doesnt matter much. then we wonder why boys dont see

their behavior matters much. most of the stuff you list as the "important" stuff also ties in nicely with assaulting females. what a teachable moment for our children teaching self respect and respect for others. that simple lesson will take care of many of the above INCLUDING not grabbing a girls tit

oh

but too much work for the men/fathers? if a parent cant handle this cause of all the world troubles, then they should not be parents

[LanternWaste]

386. I imagine that all the topics you mentioned...

I imagine that all the topics you mentioned (war, criminal banks, corrupt government, etc.) are also much more important than your job/schooling and your hobbies, yes? Yet I imagine you still go to work or school, and still find time to entertain your hobbies?

If so, what is the precise and relevant difference between the time you waste going to work/school, and the time we waste discussing an issue...?

[LeftyMom]

142. Gee, it's a good thing most of us are smart enough to multitask.

[Mopar151]

139. It happened on the night shift

Where I was temping as a machinist. "Mooonlight" got caugt by the owner screwing up a couple weeks before. He decided to grab the shift lead's ass, and whisper endearments in her ear. She came out to break on the verge of tears. Bear in mind, last break at this place was like group help for sex, with the shift lead as discussion leader, the stoner/musican guy, 2 lesbian chicks, and me. We talked about it for a couple minutes, and gave her the option - either the stoner and I would take "Moonlight" out behind the dumpster and "educate" him, or she could call the plant manager, and we'd back her up 100%. The chicks woulda hurt him BAD - they were both military ( NG-MP, Ex-marine with an Iraqui tour) and badass. She called the boss, and when I came in the next day, the compost was in the wind turbine! The shift lead took the night off, there was some fur flying when "Moonlight" showed up. His sorry ass was fired, and, come dinner break, the whole shift was cancelled, and I was laid off! The week before Christmas, to boot...
You bet I did the right thing! I sent the story around to some friends and former co-workers, and picked up a gig with one of them 2 weeks later.

And if the OP incedent had happened in my high school, those farm girls woulda had him spittin' teeth!

[seabeyond]

199. thank you. simply the right thing. no condoning and excusing. appreciate it. nt

[Name removed]

148. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

151. Suspend the little bastards. Second offense expulsion.

Third offense juvie hall.

[liquid diamond]

153. Nothing new here. Kids are being kids. This has been going on for

decades.

[geek tragedy]

165. So has rape by teenage boys. But, boys will be boys so it's okay. nt

[seabeyond]

201. from beginning of time men have dominated and controlled women. so girls, what are you bitchin about

male fuckin privilige and all you females, SHUT THE FUCK UP

damn, what a man you are, shivers

[bluestateguy]

159. Unacceptable

If an 11 year old boy does it once in school, then suspend him. The next time the police should be involved. If an older boy does that kind of thing in school, then the police should be involved when the first offense is committed.

[lutefisk]

161. What a great school. I'd remove my kids, too.

The "kids will be kids" excuse just doesn't apply when children are being touched against their will in an institution they are required to attend. The administrators are even more disgusting than the actual gropers for allowing a climate to continue in which this can take place. If they don't take it seriously, where can a child go for help?

[Last_Stand]

163. This Thread Is Off The Rails

Comparisons to rape, accusations of "sexual assault rationalization" and "male supremacy," imprisonment, branding children as sexual predators, beatings by parents, and sexual mutilation of children (boys AND girls if you're going to be just about it...)

Nice progressive board you've got here.

[Swamp Rat]

164. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Codeine]

169. It has its moments. Oh my yes it does. nt

[seabeyond]

203. amazing the shrugs from males on assault..... and then not surprised generations of boys do this

shit

yes, do tell about progressive.....

males hands down on this thread thinks it is just a growing up part of being boy.

do you think that may be part of the problem.

but wtf, girls, just our guys being boys, buck up and be assaulted.

[Amaya]

210. " Nice progressive board you've got here."

it's really not - they just like to pretend it is.

ahhhh .... america the land of the lock um up or kill um!

:woohoo:

[Arkansas Granny]

219. It sometimes gets a little over the top. Most folks are pretty reasonable, however.

[seabeyond]

220. how about all the men that see this simply as boys will be boys and part of growing up

exploring out of curiosity? merely have a word with the child it is wrong. cause of course, at 11 a boy cant figure out it is wrong to grab a girls tit?

[Arkansas Granny]

237. How about I was making a comment about some of the comments that have been

made on this thread.

I am not condoning what this child did to another child and I taught my sons and my daughter that this is not acceptable behavior. However, we are talking about children in this instance and some of the comments have been a little extreme considering who was involved.

[bliss_eternal]

463. every serial killer was a child once...

...how many showed signs (as children) of what they would become, by torturing and killing animals?

you're entitled to not be concerned about this, because the incident involves children.

but kindly don't consider those speaking against it alarmist, because they dare to recognize that this is how it starts....this is a child showing signs that he's capable of becoming a sexual predator eventually. it is not a normal part of a male's childhood to attempt to touch a female's anatomy.

doubt me?
here's a few links i got from a search engine regarding: "childhood traits of serial killers."

http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/188

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

from a search of "childhood traits of rapists"

http://www.ipce.info/host/howitt/2a.htm

http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/pdfs/PredatoryNature.pdf

[Greyhound]

166. Alarming Non-Issue To Distract You From What Is Really Happening!

Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!Fear!

[Political Heretic]

172. Um, this is hardly "new" I'm not saying that it's ok.

But it isn't a new thing at all.

Just because this generation has given it a new name, doesn't make in a new tend and some sign of how horrible todays kids are compared to yesteryears.

[frustrated_lefty]

176. What an offensive thread.

Some 30+ years ago, I ran up on the playground and kissed a girl. I didn't know why I was kissing her, but I was at an age when girl-boy stuff was catching my attention and I was curious as hell. She threatened to kick me in the nuts and I left it that, curiosity unanswered, but at least I'd tried to figure it out.

That said, stealing a kiss is a far cry from groping. Still wrong, but it's alarming to hear what is now considered proper "boy" behavior.

Some of the posters in this thread, condemning the kids right off the bat, might want to re-evaluate their knee-jerk responses. This is one area where I think parental guidance can have a huge impact. Rather than calling for the castration of pre-teens, it might be more productive to demand they be better informed and socially trained.

Years later, I'm a father, and have had to enlighten a few boys with regard to my daughter.

I think the solution is to treat one another with respect and teach our kids to do the same. My kids still say ma'am and sir, as I learned from my grandparents. They say please and thank you. To some on this board, that may seem antiquated, or even patriarchal. I would contend that when you treat a person with manners, accept the fact that they are deserving of basic respect and act accordingly, you aren't going to randomly grab their breast or crotch. Guide them at a young age, and when natural curiosity arises, it isn't so grotesquely manifested.

[seabeyond]

206. " now considered proper "boy" behavior." that is what is so offensive. respect

that is my point thru out. we dont need to teach our boys NOT to grab a tit. they KNOW not to grab a tit. we need to instill respect. self respect. respect of people. and respect of females. the boy that will grab a tit has learned not to respect females. that is what has been ingrained in society for so long that is what i thought we were fighting as progressives. and that is what i am continually seeing lacking on this progressive board

to shrug shoulders about grabbing a tit, or worse as many of us have experienced, and see it just as part of the boys job in growing up, curious and exploring, is appalling and ignoring totally what the girl goes thru. but then that is part of teaching the dehumanizing the female, allowing the disrespect. lets not even look at how the girl may feel having her tit grabbed. it is all about the boy, po dear.

[frustrated_lefty]

211. Mother of all critters, do you have anything productive to say?

My post wasn't shrugging shoulders about grabbing a tit. I said I stole a kiss around the age of 10, said it was wrong to do, and commented that it was alarming that modern behavior was so much worse.

I did NOT say it was all about the boy, "po dear," I tried to take responsibility for my gender and evaluate what might be done as a parent to prevent such behavior. If you want to go on a diatribe about how terrible it makes the girl feel, go right ahead. But, realize that doing so is really not constructive. It presents a problem, not a solution. Basically, it's ineffectual whining.

Like it or not, children do become curious. That is not an excuse for inappropriate behavior, but it is a reality. Stealing a kiss, which I fully admit was wrong, was not a sexual overture for me, I just knew it was some boy-girl thing and hoped I would understand it after the kiss. No such luck.

Rather than saying a boy should be able to cop a feel whenever he feels like, I think I am instead suggesting that children in general should be taught more basic, fundamental human respect. The curiosity they may experience, however, is not a crime, it's ludicrous to treat it as such, and I fervently hope we can teach our children to explore their curiosity in a manner which is respectful of both themselves and others in an increasingly hostile world.

[seabeyond]

213. actually, i got that from your post, that you were taking responsibility and conclusion is respect

i was agreeing with you and taking it further.

i was not going after you as you preceive. i understood your position and applaud it.

but.... to actually think about the resulting behavior from a female perspective is hardly "whining". wtf. maybe if our boys learned to see it from the girls perspective, would be easier for them to know the line of appropriate and not. seems we are being asked to see it from the boys perspective. why isnt the girls perspective valid?

[TuxedoKat]

224. I think that is a big part of the problem

If parents taught their kids basic courtesy and respect for others as you say from an early age, then they wouldn't be tempted to disrespect others in this way or any other way. I was in a grocery store with my then 13 month old daughter who mimicked me saying "thank you" to the store clerk. Right then and there I realized that she was not too young to start learning manners and thereafter insisted on "please", "thank you", "sorry", etc., until it became second nature to her and later on, her younger sister.

[SmileyRose]

184. Why would the parents leave this up to the school? CALL THE COPS!

press charges. On school, on the street, in their own front yard who cares WHERE it was. Sexual assault is sexual assault.

I'm not saying throw the boy away and the key to the jail with him. But scare the shit out of these little twirps that will be the end of the groping.

A post upthread from a man said he tried to smooch up a girl on the playground against her will at the same age. She threatened to bruise up the family jewels for him. Well you know what, in this day and age in these idiotic zero tolerate schools, you can bet THE GIRL would have ended up in jail for standing up for herself. We've decided to set up a situation where people CANNOT defend themselves against the bullies.

The boy needs a lesson, girls are not his personal playground. The girl needs a lesson that she's not expected to just sit by and meekly take it.

[lutefisk]

233. In my state, school officials have a legal responsibility to report suspected abuse

I would think the school officials would have to report this to another agency. The only reason they don't is because they don't see the violation of girls' bodies as "abuse".

[Rebubula]

188. One article...

....does not a trend make.

This IS sexual assault, but I doubt this is a widespread trend. Newspapers exaggerate to sell papers.


Alarmist crap....

[JTFrog]

192. Be careful what punishment you wish for.

This happened to my son in the sixth grade. He was walking with a friend of his down the hall and her backpack started slipping. He helped her straighten the pack on her back. The school has a no tolerance "no touching" policy. A nearby teacher wrote my son up for sexual harassment. She went so far as to say that my son touched the girl's breast. The girl not only denied it, but was completely torn apart and embarrassed because the teacher kept calling her a liar. My son also denied it and was repeatedly called a liar.

Didn't matter. It stayed on his record until he was 18.

Now, let me say that if the girl had stated that my son had done this, whether invited or not, I would have looked at the situation in a whole different light. But this "no tolerance" shit that they have in almost every school district across the country is just getting far too out of hand. Once upon a time, teachers and principals actually had to use common sense.

[sybylla]

205. New?

Happened to me back in the 70's - too often to count.

[TexasObserver]

207. It's a crime and it's unacceptable. I hope schools will attack it ASAP.

I attended public schools in the 1950s and 1960s, and there was never a time in our schools where anything like "scooping" would have been allowed.

Don't grab a woman or girl's body without her consent. It's a simple rule all boys need to learn.

[seabeyond]

209. i bet you didnt have to teach your boys not to grab a tit. but... i bet you taught your boys

to respect... not just females, but self respect, respect of people. they knew grabbing a tit was wrong.

[TexasObserver]

212. I taught my boys and other boys, too.

I coached sports during my kids' years when they played a lot of sports. Coached the boys and the girl, and their friends. There's a lot of absentee fathers out there - both literally and too busy to care - who don't provide guidelines because they're not around. No help for team practices. No help for keeping the grounds prepared and ready. No help getting kids picked up and taken home for practices or games. No help with the after game mandatory trip to Chucky Cheese or whatever. No showing up for games except once in a blue moon, only to constantly upset their kid by standing nearby and yelling obnoxiously to stand up, lean back, choke up, yada yada yada.

Children learn by example and a good man as a role model is the best way for boys to learn how to behave.

Where are the fathers of the boys doing this "scooping"? Why haven't they already taught their boys it's unacceptable?

[seabeyond]

214. a good man as a role model is the best way for boys to learn how to behave

this is all i am saying. and i love your post, and often hear you talk like this, and i love those posts. it all is not so hard

having two boys, having a good father for them, uncles, and two grandfathers for them, i still always value the male coach, teacher, friend that reinforces the bahviors.

thanks to

[redqueen]

328. So nice to read responses like this...

as opposed to the "it's no big deal" / "boys just don't know any better" crap.

None of the schools I went to would have allowed this, either. I'm amazed that so many are so familiar with it.

[TexasObserver]

361. Agreed. Any child in first grade should know they aren't supposed to do such things.

When a child is 1-5 they should learn not to hit, punch, slap, bite, grab others. It's learned restraint, if it's taught (assuming the child doesn't have some problem associated with such misconduct).

Apparently in some areas, boys have come to believe they have this right. It's sexual assault. It's a crime. No little girl should be assaulted as described. This can't be dismissed as inconsequential. Serious consequences have to follow, and the school has to come down on the practice.

[seabeyond]

208. i talked to hubby, i talked to boys. hubby did not see it as his right. never did it. friends

didnt do it. heard about a few boys doing it but about it

so says messed up thinking boys dont know better. every kids in his high school knows better.

it is good to hear a male not make excuses or condone or shrug this off.

12 yr old.... he knows better. without me having to tell him not to grab a tit, he knows not to grab a tit. why? cause he has taught to be respectful of others. he says it is a given, that means, ... dont grab a tit. the ones that teach their children, boys being boys are the ones teaching their boys it is ok to grab the tit.

[stuntcat]

217. at 11 years old...

all the comments on here about how common (and normal, thus ok?) this is worry me.

I'm sorry but ELEVEN is too young for kids to be thinking about the tradition of "copping a feel"

I went to shitty public schools, full of hicks & rednecks, and I was never bothered that way, not when I was 17.. not when I was 14.. and it's not even something 11-year-olds would think of doing, even in a county backwards as mine.

To me this is weird, bordering on disturbing. just my real humble opinion :eyes:

[Jennicut]

223. When I was in junior high in 1988 to 1990 some stuff like this happened.

I think it has happened a lot over the years but we are hearing about it now. The kids I went to school with drank, smoked pot, and did stuff like this to each other. And I grew up in a wealthy town. And it is wrong and disturbing and something needs to be done.

[redqueen]

329. I'm with you... but IMO it's full-on sickening. (nt)

[dustbunnie]

226. As others have stated, it's not a new trend at all.

I think the blood-thirsty kind of over-reaction, such as the responses in this thread - "cut off his penis" and "lock him away in juvie till he's 18" IS very much a new and frightening trend.

[seabeyond]

230. but to shrug and says boys will be boys just curious is obviously, the same old mind think. nt

[ismnotwasm]

228. Well my Grandson is turning 11 in a few days

I think I'll show him this thread. He hates bullies, already 'loves' the ladies, and would find this behavior abhorrent from everything I know about him. However, just to make sure, I want him to see how certain adults justify both sexual battery and bulling--this behavior is both-- in one fell swoop. Nice job guys.

[dustbunnie]

231. Funny, I don't see a single person condoning either "scooping" or bullying.

Can't even say "nice try though," since it's so obvious that everyone finds the behavior obnoxious and untenable. What is being argued on this thread is the level of punishment that should be meted out. And clearly, some people are out of their minds.

[seabeyond]

234. "I don't see a single person condoning ". of course you dont bunny. no surprise there. nt

[seabeyond]

232. i hear ya. both my boys got to appreciate the boys will be boys mentality this morning.

since the men on this thread are telling me our boys are not clever enough to figure out this is assault and unwanted to females, i thought i had better spell it out for boys to make sure i did my job :sarcasm: . they were pretty bothered by the majority of the males attitude on this thread. they thought it a dig/slight against them as males. they happen to feel they are more clever and insightful and enlightened than the males on this thread seem to think they are

i always appreciate the lessons these men give my boys what not to be, thru their example, even if in negative.

and big kudos to the men that call it what it is and set the good example for my sons.

[pipi_k]

236. Well, the name for it may have changed, but the behavior hasn't..

I remember being the victim of the same sort of thing back in the 60s.


I'll tell you what new thing I just found about that I don't recall ever happening when I was young...."Rainbow parties"

Those apparently involve girls putting on different shades/colors of lipstick and giving boys oral sex, then the boys get together and compare their "rainbows" to see who has the most colors.

Utterly shocking and disgusting.

The only party game we ever played when I was a teenager was Spin The Bottle.

[reflection]

244. Wow. I've got two daughters and never heard of that one.

I've got to stay on top of this stuff. Off to do a little research and find out how prevalent this junk is. To be honest, it sounds like one of those disgusting things that people create a name for but no one has actually done. (e.g., Cleveland Steamer, and all that nonsense)

on edit: a cursory Google indicates that 'rainbow parties' are indeed the stuff of urban legend. I'll look further.

[pipi_k]

252. I did a search and came up with this...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=2218648669


It's a facebook page.

and the ironic thing is the post by Steve Wilkos (host of the Steve Wilkos show) who was looking for kids who have done this...I actually saw the show recently where teenagers admitted to having done it.

[reflection]

254. Yeah, I've been looking around too.

It looks as if it is mostly the stuff of urban legend. Not to say that some girl somewhere hasn't done it, but it hardly rises to the level of something I should be worried about as a father. Which is good. I've got plenty of things to be worried about.

As best I can tell from the 10 links I've looked at, it seems that the 'rainbow party' crisis may be borne of the fact that someone wrote a book about these parties, the book was featured on Oprah, and later, when the book was shown to be largely the stuff of imagination and tall tales, the Oprah effect had already rippled outward and given the effect of a common problem.

[pipi_k]

340. I didn't mean to imply it's a crisis or anything...

just that kids have had organized parties to do this sort of thing.

It's not something I had ever done, or heard of, when I was a kid, so apparently it's something new. As opposed to boys grabbing girls, which has been going on forever.

That was mainly my point.


Although it does help to be aware of what kids might be referring to these days...

[seabeyond]

255. there are also the blow job parties of 12, 13 yr old with group of boys

on knees, going from boy to boy.... so she will be liked, and what, respected in school. get the most pathetically vulnerable girl and take advantage.

[pipi_k]

342. Yep, that too...I heard a gynecologist on TV say the other day

that she's treated girls as young as 11 or 12 for things that could only be obtained via oral sex.

[Vidar]

238. Nothing new here. This was a scandal in my elementary school 48 years

ago. Boys & girls were grabbing each others' crotches. They call it "grubbing" back then, if memory serves me.

[lutefisk]

240. "grubbing" - I remember that from the late 60's. Haven't heard the word since.

Of course back then the teachers could physically abuse students and students freely used words such as "nigger" and "homo" and played smear the queer without repercussions. I guess we've advanced a little...

[NeedleCast]

239. This is the sort of thread that makes it hard to associate myself with "progressives"

First, the article is ridiculous in labeling this "trend" new. It's been going on since the dawn of time.

Second are the number of over-reactions, calling for everything from years of inprisonment to labeling the boy a sex offender to at least one call for the death penalty and one for sexual mutilation of the boy. Then there's one very obvious poster who seems to think any level of tolerance for this behaviour is "shoulder shrugging by men."

If I were the parent of the boy in this case, and found out about it, my MEASURED RESPONSE would be to.

1. Have a stern talking to with my kid about why this is not appropriate - ever - and why it's important to respect other people's right to their space and not being violated. Explain that unwanted sexual touching is a wrong and that it better not happen again.

2. Since I would expect my child (even at age 11) to understand that this what he did is wrong, I'd probably ground them or take away privleges for an appropriate amount of time.

3. Have him apologize to the girl, if she desired an apology.

This, kiddos, is a measured response. One that punishes the offender AND reinforces why this activity isn't to be done.

Sending them to prison is not a measured response. Killing the offender is not a measured response. Sexual mutilation of the offender is not a measured response.

However, I fully expect someone to be along shortly to tell me why any response short of burning the offender at the stake with all cleansing FIRE makes me an enabler.

[seabeyond]

241. you deride posters for hyperbole as your post is full of it

and i am sure, that one poster you speak of is me. there are many men shrugging their shoulders and beyond. your solution for the issue seems to be appropriate and right on. but wth... call me out being extreme, dismissing the men that do suggest just boys being boys and not capable of knowing wrong in this action

the poster on death penalty was a joke. ONE poster suggested juvie. ONE poster said castration. and since the poster did not come back to say that was an extreme comment not to be taken seriously, i have got to believe that is the case. and i have yet to see a poster suggest be on sex offender list.

when you demand an honest discussion on the issue, one would think you would partipate in the honesty too.

[Occulus]

258. ...and then we all looked at your very first post on this thread,

wherein you asked "or did yawl simply giggle". I don't call that an expression of desire for an honest discussion.

Seabeyond, that's the sort of snark that puts you on a bad footing for the rest of the discussion. You may in fact be right, but your adversarial tone toward those who state explicitly that they don't condone the behavior makes everyone, including myself, more inclined to take your position with more than just one grain of salt, and has given many here cause to stop taking you as seriously as you would like.

Next you'll say I'm "shrugging my shoulders" about this, but I'm not speaking to the issue this thread addresses in any way, shape, or form. I'm speaking to you, personally. Knock it off. You're not doing your position any favors with the tone you're taking to the other people on this thread who, by my reading, actually agree with you.

[seabeyond]

274. i guess it is all in how you chose to interpret my posts. but YOU demanding me to KNOCK IT OFF

isnt gonna happen. i tend to interpret that as dictorial/controlling behavior and not much into that kinda behavior, and hardly respect nor listen to that poster.

[dustbunnie]

295. Ignore can be everybody's friend.

This thread looks quite readable to me, even though it's liberally spotted with ignores. Much more so than it would have been in the past. :)

[NeedleCast]

262. And here you are...

I see very few men on this thread shrugging their shoulders. I see many men who seem to believe that an appropriate response is the measured disciplining of the child and a lot of men who have said this is something that has been going on a long, long time (which you seem to be reading as acceptance of the behavior...which it isn't).

I have not suggested that you are one of the people who have proposed and extreme reaction or that the majority of people have done so. What I have pointed out is the (very factual) knee-jerk reaction by a number of posters who seem to think that an 11-year old who made a mistake should pay for it (in some form or another) for the rest of their life.

More than one poster has suggested juvie or other police intervention. More than one poster has suggested the child be placed on a sexual predator list. As DU has rules against calling people out, I can't copy and paste those responses into this post, but you can go back and re-read the thread. Frankly, I'm alarmed that on a progressive board ANYONE would suggest sexual mutilation is an appropriate response, joking or not. Further, I did indicate in my first post in this sub-thread that it was ONE person who had suggested the death penalty and ONE person who suggested sexual mutilation, so there is nothing hyperbolic about it.

IMO, anyone suggesting that the police need to be involved, that the court system needs to be involved or that more than a handful of people on this thread have suggested this behavior is okay is being dishonest. You seem to have a particular bone to pick here. Based on your responses, anytime someone has suggest that this is "normal" behavior at that age (it is, even though it's wrong), your reaction has been to label that person an enabler or shoulder-shrugger, which is jumping to a conclusion that isn't suggested by the person you're responding to.

Eleven year olds do stupid things. They do it EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW IT'S WRONG. They do it because they are eleven and unlike adults, have a lesser understanding in many cases of the harm and reaction to their behavior. They tend to be much more impulsive than adults and don't have the reasoning skills in many cases to link what they're about to do with the fact that it's not an appropriate thing to do. I got up to my share of shennanigans as a pre-teen boy (never sexual things of this nature, but I just about burned our house down and did burn down a good sized chunk of fencing because - while I knew I shouldn't play with fire - my ability to reason the results of trying to "smoke out" a wasp nest simply didn't include the potential to burn the house down).

Luckily I had parents who understood that a measured response was to point out that my actions (playing with fire) had a poor result. Instead of labeling me a "future arsonist" and assigning me to the juvie system, they grounded me for a week and made me pay for section of fence I'd damaged out of my allowance (which at the time meant no allowance for about four months and at age 11 my 11 year old brained precieved that as pretty much equal to the death penalty).

[seabeyond]

269. well, we disagree it is "normal" since the vast majority of 11 yr old boys not only know it is wrong

they dont do it

i guess that is the big sticking point for me

for me, all these males are selling the 11 yr old boys out. the majority of them. and for me, saying it is "normal" behavior for 11 yr old (especially as i see it isnt) gives the boys just one more out with their behavior.

i see admitting and stating that even at 11 a boy who respects people as a whole, knows this behavior isnt appropriate is standing up for boys. most boys dont like being pinned with this as part of who they are. they feel it is insulting to say it is normal for them to grab a girls tit without any thought to the right or wrong of it.

i feel i am standing up for boys. i feel that many on this thread are dissing boys.

[NeedleCast]

278. What you're not getting here

Is that while gropping may not be "normal" behavior for 11 year old boys, doing dumb shit is. Whether it's gropping or setting something on fire or stealing a pack of gum or throwing eggs at a car or TP'ing someones house, when you're 11, all those things pretty much end up in the same catagory of behavior - juvenille. Kids do dumb shit. I'm sure your boys, while they sound very well behaved for the most part, have done things to disappoint you and things that have required you to take corrective action. And that is the situation we're dealing with here. Behavior the requires corrective action. That's a portion of what parenting is, right? Good parents should strive to teach their children appropriate behavior and correct them when they fail to meet the standard...and I don't see more than one or two people on this thread whom you have called indifferent or shoulder-shruggers stating anything to the contrary.

This behavior is, absoultely, 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt, normal. Its inappropriate. Its wrong. It needs to be corrected and every single child since the dawn of humanity has done it (where it = dumb shit). My friends and I used to throw acorns at each other at that age. Our parents told us not to. They said someone was going to get hit in the eye. We didn't listen. Until someone got hit in the eye and it hurt like champ, and then we stopped, because we were then able to make the cognative link between what we were told to do and the consiquinces of failing to do the right thing.

Your mistake here is to single out THIS PARTICULAR BEHAVIOR from all the other dumb shit that pre-teen boys (and girls) get up to as if it should - for whatever reason - be put on a higher level of crime simply because it's on a higher level of crime in the adult world. I can't think of a single friend of mine at that age who wasn't in "big trouble young man!" for doing something stupid at some point.

Please point out the men on this thread who are selling these boys out by saying this sort of behavior is approrpiate and doesn't deserve punishment of some sort. I have seen some men say this sort of thing is normal. I have not seen one single male say this sort of thing is normal and should be completely ignored.

I think the VAST majority of 11 year old boys know this behavior is not approprite. I think the VAST majority of 11 year old boys (and girls) often fall short of the perfectly disciplined children we'd want them to be.

[seabeyond]

293. i think saying grabbing breast are normal, curiosity, puberty, dont know better IS

condoning. has cushioned the wrong. make it less black and white. validated behavior. i would never precondition a wrong of any kind, in that manner. it takes away personal responsibility.

if a man were to sit with son, and say, son, i know you like boobs, i know you are curious about them, i know this is just normal behavior, but hey dude, you just arent allow

what do you think he is teaching his son? respect? no

that is what it is sounding to me like

i appreciate you clarifying dumb shit stuff... and me seperating from typical dumb shit stuff. and you are probably right. i am. i would if son was accused of bullying. or calling a child a n*****. or a child a F**. those areas are beyond, and in teaching child self respect and respect.... doing dumb shit doesnt cut it. and again, since the majority dont do it, they seem to get the difference too

and yes

many times i have said.... what were you thinking

but never shit like this.

but even in saying, what were you thinking? i never said, ok, so i know you are not capable of thinking this thru, or it is normal behavior. it was.... what the hell were you thinking.

[NeedleCast]

309. Well, that's your right I guess

No one has suggested the situation which you have described above. I would not tell a kid that it's okay to induldge in this behavior simply because it's normal. As I said in my initial post in this thread, I'd be inclined to both punish my child AND explain to them in no uncertain terms WHY it's wrong and I would never use the word "normal activity" but that doesn't mean juevenille behavior isn't just that...juevenille behavior.

Obviouslly no (good) parent is going to tell their child "look here kid, what you did is wrong but it's kinda okay because I expect you to do normal childish dumb things so you've got two more stirkes..."

You are setting a precident that I don't think most kids are capable of understanding. For example, the use of racial or sexual slurs in name calling. I called my mom a "horny pimp" once when I was 8 or 9. At the time, I had no idea what either of those words meant. I just overheard it on the playground, thought it sounded funny and used it. I didn't even mean to be insulting to my mom, I just thought it was funny. She schooled me prety quick on why it wasn't and she explained why it wasn't. At that age, for most kids, there's little seperation in calling someone an asshole and calling someone a fag. Understand that even when explained to a kid, they still might not be able to process the difference right away. They have not yet gained the empathy (most) adults have.

Understand that in the adult penal and court system there is a level of punishment to certain crimes that kids don't understand yet. Sure, they understand the difference between right and wrong but they often don't understand that inappropriate touching is any different from stealing a pack of gum. It's the entire reason why we have a seperate criminal justice system for them.

When you ask your kid (at age 11) "what the hell were you thinking?!?" if you got an honest answer, their response would probably be "I wasn't." That's called being a kid. You're impulsive. You don't think things through. You are (often) easily pressured. Hell, there are still plenty of adults who have cognative issues with "thinking things through to a logical conclusion." We usually call them Republicans. It is NOT a justificaion of, condonement of, or even indifference to, the behavior.

[seabeyond]

335. i heard the same silent condoning when two nephews stoled car and credit car. typical impulsive

teenage behavior. we love you, but what you did was wrong.

giving the kid excuses. he doesn't have to take unequivocal responsibility for what he did.

i dont think when a strong majority doesn't do, we can label it normal

and yes... many adults parent that way and the kid gets a silent acceptance of choice.

[NeedleCast]

345. But it's not condoning!

FFS, what do you think is appropriate? Telling a kid that what they did was wrong (but that you love them still) is condoning or giving the kid an excuse? How? In what way? I'd agree that if the child was not punished in some way then yes, it might be considered excusing it or even condoning it.

Ugh, I just don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say.

No, a majority of kids don't grab girls privates. A majority don't steal cars (or anything else). A majority don't act cruely to animals. A majority don't throw eggs at passing cars. But a majority WILL do a few stupid things as kids and that's the point. I can only speak for myself and my childhood friends but I had zero, ZERO friends who, when they did something inappropriate or stupid (or both) weren't punished for it. Some in more or less harsh ways than others, but that's up to the individual parent. No parent I knew as a child would have ignored this behavior. Not one.

If many adults parent that way and the kids are getting silent acceptance then the blame lies with parents, not the children performing the acts.

[seabeyond]

304. just a thought

why on this whole thread, women, the ones that were grabbed at a young age, seem to feel it is a much bigger deal than the men. the ones that grabbed? or thought funny friend grabbed? and how we dont seem to be so concerned about the girls being grabbed, but the level of severity for the guy.

it seems the expectation is empathy for the boy and a lack of empathy for the girl.

just a thought

[NeedleCast]

320. For me, the seriousness of the crime is not really mesuareable from through they eyes of 11 year

old.

Most of the women on this thread seem to thing that an appropriate response (and one I don't disagree with) is to punch the kid in the beak or give his nuts a good bashing. I have no issue with that. Lay hands on me inapproriatly and I'll lay hands on you inappropriatly. That is a measured response.

My argument continues to be that an 11-year old (most of them anyway) does not

1) Have the cognative ability to understand the scalability of some inappropriate actions
2) Have the impulse control not to do stupid shit on occasions
3) Understand empathy well enough to know that inappropriate touching is a crime against a person and not like stealing a pack of gum.

I bet if you polled 11-year old boys and asked them the follwing question, you'd get answers that were all over the place:

Which of the following is worse:

A) Stealing a pack of baseball cards.
B) Grabbing a girl's butt.
C) Calling someone a bitch.

and the reason you'd get responses all across the board is because kids don't (usually) understand the scalability of inappropriate behavior. Even if you asked adults the same question, you'd get a variety of answers becasue the answer depends on upbringing and socialtal factors.

I grew up in a fairly conservative house but my dad cursed a lot, so for me, hearing the word bitch wasn't a big deal. Stealing was a big deal because my sister got caught doing it once and was punished for it. I was a fairly shy boy, so grabbing a girl's butt wasn't something that would cross my mind, so my answer would probably have been A.

Point is, as adults some of you are arguing a scalability that most 11 year olds only have a loose concept of in most cases.

[seabeyond]

337. and if your child hasnt learned empathy by 11, it is a sad time for all. empathy is the easiest

for kids once they are past the me me me of two. it tends to be harder for adults.

[NeedleCast]

373. Its the linkage of empathy to their actions

Its why as an adult, I wouldn't throw eggs at someones car (well, part of the reason). I don't think most kids would think, while engaged in such things, "I could cause a fatal car accident."

Same for this action. Kid probably knows it's wrong but is not able to perform the linkage that it is both wrong AND harmful to another person, or at least not understand why it's harmful/hurtful.

I could be wrong and this could be a predator in the making but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that if the parents handle this correctly that it wont happen again and said child will go on to be a normal, functioning, non-predatory member of society.

[seabeyond]

376. as a parent i would use it as a learning opportunity for kids as i used this thread this morning

as a learning opportunity for both my boys. just in case i didnt cover that it is wrong to grab a girls breast, and also to hear how they felt.... about being told normal behavior for their gender and age. and to listen to their response and what they had to say. again, more parenting opportunity, allowing them to come to the foundation to live by, by themselves, then me telling them

but kids, especially boys learn this at a very very young age. so if they are in any kind of school system by age 5, they have had it drilled in their head for a good 6 yrs about inappropriate touching.

anyway

i do appreciate the chat. and the perspective. and you allowing me to interact so i could 'feel" the situation better, instead of battle.

[seabeyond]

384. btw... no where have i suggested these are hopeless kids, or throw away kids

you suggest people are being extreme here. but i am seeing it on both sides and though you didnt accuse me of it, i want there to be a clear understanding that not often do i see anything undoable.

hence, why i am all over this thread. to shift a thinking that doesnt behoove any of us, either gender

[dustbunnie]

245. Excellent post and excellent response to the theoretical situation. n/t

[redqueen]

307. It never happened at any of the schools I went to.

There was no name for any game where boys or girls tried to pull this kind of crap.


It's funny how you zero on in a few ridiculous punishments, advocated by how many? As compared to how many saying it's just 'boys will be boys' stuff and we can't be too hard on them, cause how can an 11-year old know it's wrong to grab sex organs?

[NeedleCast]

332. but that doesn't mean it didn't happen in some regions

I went to grade school in the 80s through early 90s and it did go on. In fact, in elementry school, the roles were quite reversed. The girls would single out a boy or boys and chase them around at recess until they could pin him down and kiss him. The girls though it was great fun. The boys did not. By middle-school, the boys were doing most of the grab-assing and more than one of them got punched in the dome by the girl or by a pissed off boyfriend.

As I have said, repeatedly, I think just about all 11 year old boys know its wrong to grab the sex organs of a girl. However, most 11-year old boys do things they know are wrong at some point because they either lack the empathy to understand why it's wrong or they lack the impulse control to not do it. Find me an 11 year old boy who's never done something wrong. I'll wait. Its not a justification of the behavior, it's a fact that pre-teens do stupid shit. My issue lies with applying the scalable adult ciminal system to an 11-year old, and the fact that some posters see this inappropriate thing in a radically different light than say, egging a car. To an adult, they are probably on a different level, but to an 11 year old, they probably aren't.

Yes, it is boys being boys. I am not attempting to justify the behavior. I'm attempting to provide an explanation of why it happens (and at the same time making fun of the knee-jerk sentiment often seen on DU crime threads...because just like an argument between moderates and non-moderates is going to end up with someone being called a nazi, a DU crime thread is going to end up with someone calling for castration).

[redqueen]

334. How many people have said to apply the adult criminal system?

Not many. Why keep harping on it, when you know full well hardly anyone thinks that's appropriate?

I'm disturbed that the 'boys will be boys' crap (which is an insult to boys who choose to control themselves) is so earnestly clung to... not surprised, just disturbed.

As for your "Find me an 11 year old boy who's never done something wrong" red herring... lame. You're comparing stealing toys or calling names to sexual assault? Maybe if we called it what it was, fewer people would find it so easy to casually dismiss as normal behavior.

[NeedleCast]

339. Wasn't really the inital point

Which, like I said, was to mock a typical DU "crime" thread. Further, there was the issue of a handful of people who seem to think that by suggesting this is a "boys will be boys" issue that we're somehow dismissing it. I can't speak for other people on the thread but I think that is, for the most part, correct. Pre-teens will be pre-teens and do stupid shit and that it's a realativly minor issue that in the HUGE majority of cases is appropriatly addressed by the parents or other authorities. Young boys do stupid shit, young girls do stupid shit. The vast majority of them are corrected, and the behavior stops.

Yes, I am comparing stealing toys are calling names to "sexual assault." Of course there's the language involved, and a reason why we have defintions for things. Its the reason that planning to kick a kids butt after school because he grabbed your girlfriend is "a schoolyard fight" and not "attempted murder." It's the reason that a 16 year old kid who gets caught joy-riding for the first time is generally charged in the juevenille system with criminal mischief and not "grand theft auto."

You are continuing to equte the actions of an 11 year old with the actions of an adult. You're wrong in doing so and, as I've already pointed out, this is the reason we have an entirely seperate justice system for people under 18.

As I've said (and again, the courts pretty much bear this out in that we have a seperate justice system for them), an 11 year old does not understand the scalability of a crime like an adult does. An 11 year old (generally) does not understand emapthy like an adult does. Argue that all you want, but the entire legal system of our country says you're wrong. If you were right, there would be no need for seperate justice systems.

[redqueen]

343. By lumping this behvaior in with stealing toys and other *actual* minor shit...

you're saying a lot about yourself.

As for your belief that 16-year-olds who steal cars aren't charged with auto theft... LOL.

[NeedleCast]

367. Thing is though

that for most 11 year olds, I don't think they'd be able to process the difference between stealing a minor thing and grabbing a girl.

Most 16 year old offenders would not be charged with auto theft on a first offense. If they had a sheet, that'd be a different story. Of course this just bears out my point, especially here on DU, where the order of the day for some in crime threads is to maximize punishment while having no idea if there's any history there or not. 11 year old boy inappropriatly touching a girl once is a kid doing dumb shit. Something that bears punishment and an explanation of why it's inappropriate. If he has a history of doing this sort of thing, then maybe it bears further, more harsh punishment and probably more in depth counseling. The MO on DU regarding things like this though (at least for some posters) seems to assume the worst.

[redqueen]

369. They wouldn't know the difference in severity between stealing a toy and grabbing a sex organ?

Really?

That's just so far past stupid... I don't even know what to say.

Have a good one.

[seabeyond]

370. process the difference between stealing a minor thing and grabbing a girl.

and i KNOW 11 yr old boys can distinguish between the two. though i suggest gonna be the very few that steal too. probably the same ones that grab a tit. the ones not being parented.

[readmoreoften]

403. As if you've ever associated with PROGRESSIVES.

:eyes:

[Iggo]

249. That ain't new.

We used to call it "copping a feel".

[L0oniX]

256. What ever happened to depantsing?

[NeedleCast]

266. Still going on

along with pretty much every other pre-teen/teen bit of sillyness that's been going on for hundreds of years.

I have to say though that as an adult who worked as a doorman (bouncer) for awhile, pantsing someone is a great way to get them to stop what they're doing. I had a guy get up in my face at a bar many years ago when I asked him to leave (ironically, for sexually inappropriate behavior). He got defensive about it and, lucky for me, was wearing a sort of track suit/sweat suit outfit. I yanked his pants down. Believe me, there is NO WAY to be tough when your pants are around your ankles. He pulled them up and left immediatly.

Pantsing - the ultimate regulator.

[KansDem]

259. Hey, maybe this is just "youthful indiscretion?"

These kids are only 12; they have another 28 years to use W's "Get Out Of Jail Free" excuse...:sarcasm:

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

263. A punch in the nose

would stop that crap.........

[Echo In Light]

270. Indeed. A busted nose, cracked cheek bone and/or knocked out teeth end a predator's BS quickly

Which is what we teach our daughter. Violence is a last resort in most instances, but a realistic option in dealing w/the world's a-holes.

[Iggo]

271. That's what usually stops it.

Like I said upthread, this ain't new. It's been going on among the newly pubescent for a loooong time. And the way to stop it now is the same as it always was: Bring down the hammer.

[Toasterlad]

272. A Kick In the Balls Would Be More Appropriate...And Be a Greater Deterent

Boys should not be going around groping girls, but the hysteria on this thread (rape? seriously?) is beyond ridiculous. Overreaction to shit like this is just another symptom of the societal immaturity that CAUSES the shit. Maybe if Americans stopped treating sex like a dirty, illicit, shameful secret, our children would be less inclined to engage in such juvenile behavior.

And god damn you all for making me defend CHILDREN.

[leftstreet]

363. Teach girls to grab the boys' crotches in return. Hard. That'll stop it

end of problem

[Kalyke]

290. I had that happen ONCE and only ONCE because I punched the shit

out of the offender.

Then told the Hall Monitor teacher why I had. The boy got sent to the office. I did not. Other boys who saw it or heard about it knew better than to try it on me.

I was a target because I was a tiny girl with a large chest. Apparently, some boys can't understand that my having a large chest is hereditary and not an invitation to them to touch it.

[redqueen]

311. To everyone acting so shocked and claiming that it isn't new... yes it is, to some people.

No such game ever went on at any of the schools I went to. It would not have been tolerated.

[dustbunnie]

389. No schools "tolerate" it, obviously. That's why it's done hit-and-run.

:eyes:

At our school, one group of girls liked to pile on a boy during recess and pull his pants down. That was sexual assault too. Far as I know, none of them have become predators or rapists because they were reprimanded and suspended instead of being thrown in prison or having their tits lopped off as punishment.

[redqueen]

398. LOL... "having their tits lopped off"... stay classy! (nt)

[dustbunnie]

404. As classy as those on this thread suggesting 11 year old boys have their penes cut off.

Right?

[redqueen]

405. Those? How many have said that? (nt)

[dustbunnie]

412. At least one. In addition to the suggestion that 11 year olds be incarcerated.

In addition to the posts suggesting that ass grabbing is the equivalent of being vaginally raped. (I always love it when male posters decide what's the equivalent of being vaginally raped, don't you?) And then posters like you, who admit quite openly that you have absolutely no knowledge or experience, yet here you are running up and down the thread berating people for "minimizing" what you don't have the slightest clue about.

[redqueen]

413. "At least one"?... post numbers please?

And yeah, there's how many saying it's the same as being raped?

I love how you and a few others are so desperately seizing on those few comments... in order to distract from the subject.

Now why would you want to threadjack on this topic... hmmmmmm.

As for me not having a clue... WTF are you talking about? I can read, you know.

Do you "not have the slightest clue" about anything you haven't personally experienced?

[dustbunnie]

414. I find it odd that you wouldn't have a comment to post to the person who advocated

castration or the other person who advised locking children up in prison. Not a single one. Yet you have plenty to say to the people who've actually been there, done that as far the groping issue goes. So much outrage over something you really obviously DON'T have a clue about. if you did, you'd understand the grey areas, and that a lot of these stupid games have to do with certain groups of kids engaging in behavior because they "like" each other, and how it grows out of control as others emulate them. How a lot of it also has to do with bullying, peer pressure and how it isn't a one-gender issue. Girls engage in it too. Yeah, you can read. Impressive how little you get from it.

But it works better if the thread is used as an excuse to berate all the menz and their terrible tudes. :eyes:

[redqueen]

415. Because IMO that's flamebait BS.

And even if they're serious... they're already getting jumped on by plenty of people already. So very, very sorry that I'm not piling on there. Really.

As for being groped... I've been groped, believe it or not - just not at school as part of a 'game'.

Man you really need to brush up on your reading comprehension issues. I never said it was a one-gender issue, either. :eyes:

Also, tone the hyperbole down a notch... might want to stop claming that "those" people are saying something you can't cite.

[dustbunnie]

417. I see. It's flame bait to respond to people who advocate for castration or imprisonment.

But not to engage in smug arguments with people who have an understanding of what's going on in the schools and with the kids. Right, okay.

Your groping incidents outside of school don't really have anything to do with what's going on inside of them so we don't need to discuss it.

I have no idea what that last sentence is about. The posts on this thread speak for themselves. I haven't invented a thing.

[redqueen]

418. No, it's flamebait to post that it's rape and deserves imprisonment.

LOL... 'smug'... 'people who have an understanding'... you're a piece of work you are.

And yeah, they do. Being groped is sexual battery... and it's fucked up no matter where it happens.

The fact that some people are trying to pretend it's just innocent sexual curiosity is fucked up, and I will comment where I wish thank you very much.

The last sentence means stop making assertions that you can't back up. Is that clear enough for you?

[dustbunnie]

423. Nobody is condoning it, and nobody is claiming it's "innocent" sexual curiosity.

But it isn't surprising that you and a few others are attempting to paint it that way.

I'm a piece of work. Lulz... I'd rather that than to be one of the walking wounded who need to find the outrage in every situation to assuage some inner hurt that never got mended.

Of course you can comment where you wish, and when you do, you can expect to get some right back atcha. See how that works on a message board?

[redqueen]

424. Sexual curiosity is, by definition, innocent.

Fucking hell. :rofl:

[dustbunnie]

426. No it isn't at all. What an ignorant statement.

But your lack of knowledge about sexual curiosity is really beside the point isn't it? Not a single person has condoned or approved of the actions of the boy in question. And yet, it's the same two or three people that you'd expect, to twist the words of everyone else. Pretty sad when you think of the mindset required, day in and day out.

[redqueen]

427. You seriously think sexual curiosity isn't innocent?

Whoooo boy... yeah... I'm gonna bow out now.

Good luck... :hi:

[dustbunnie]

433. I'm pretty tired of this myself. But no, not all sexual curiosity is innocent.

Some curiosity comes from a perverse and malevolent place. Jeffry Dahmer knew what he was doing was wrong. Yet he was curious that first time. In fact, every serial rapist and murderer committed the first disgusting act out of "curiosity." I'm not wet behind the ears and if I decide to open the door to some aspect of my sexuality so far undiscovered, I won't be doing it wrapped in a cloud of "innocence" either. But I like how you cottoned onto that one unimportant detail out of everything else.

Your posts are often so dense and completely lacking in any kind of imagination whatsoever.

[redqueen]

434. Curiosity is not the same thing as action on the curiosity. (Should I say DUH here? LOL)

Thanks for the personal insults, btw... like i said... stay classy! :hi:

[tblue37]

323. During the 1990s it was "depantsing," which was exactly what it sounds like! nt

[Crunchy Frog]

333. I don't know what I would do to my boys if they ever did something like that.

:mad:

[redqueen]

336. You mean you woulnd't gently sit them down, and explain that you know it was only curiosity?

Or minimize it as simple touching? Just normal 'rambunctious', 'boys will be boys' behavior?

[seabeyond]

338. exactly. i am flabbergasted, but i guess that is hysteria to at least one poster, maybe more

that any parent would parent in such a manner and then be surprised their boy doesnt get it

[redqueen]

351. That crap is the defnition of "wink and a nod" punishment. (nt)

[seabeyond]

354. it is. so maybe this is the break down of the communication with this issue.

because, i really do not think the men get it.

[redqueen]

356. Some of them do!

Not most, but some. There's hope. :)

[seabeyond]

359. geez, i wasnt clear enough. lol. i mean, the men that for us it is wink wink, nod nod.....

they dont get how there is an acceptance in behavior, ergo, encourages and is taught to our boys, even though the man tells his son it is wrong.

i am not talking about the men on this thread, that know it is wrong, and that is the end of the conversation. it is clear to them. not so clear to the other men.

[bamacrat]

341. Geez kids today know way too much at a young age.

We didn't "scoop" when I was in school but in 8th grade there were a couple girls who would flash us when the teachers back was turned. They didn't turn out as well as the girls who didn't.

[closeupready]

347. You mean, the police weren't called? Girls should have been sent to juvenile detention,

for a good seven years. :sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

350. one poster. now who is being hysterical. nt

[closeupready]

358. Did you mean, 'now who is still being hysterical.'?

n/t

[seabeyond]

366. you have yet to show me or explain the comment that i am hysterical. nt

[closeupready]

377. Hysterical may not be the word. I'm not sure how to characterize it, but

you apparently object to those who suggest gently reprimanding the boy; you seem to believe he should be dealt with harshly, almost violently - if not physically then in terms of suddenness - in response to his action. Like a nun with a ruler or bullwhip.

Is that a loving way to punish children who are 11 years old and just beginning to grow into men and women?

So no, I disagree 100% with your position on this. Cheers.

[seabeyond]

381. no. hysterical isnt the word. now... show me where i advocate violence

ruler or a bullwhip. again, what you give me is not accurate. it is your accessment, not my words. i have never treated anyone, let alone my kids in that manner.

i will say, i will never have to know how i would punish either of my boys for this because of 12 and 15 years of being connected, loving them unconditionally, respecting them and they respecting me, talking, listening listening listening to the boys knowing where they are in life, that they will not only not treat girls/women in this fashion but other guys eityher, in a bullying manner. it is not who they are. and knowing the boys as i do, having spent a lifetime with them, listening to them, keepping in touch with where they are in life, a father that respects females, i can say it with certainty.

no, i dont dither with boys when they do wrong. but then i dont do it with myself either. and easily admit to a mistake. they have learned that we are perfectly imperfect and owning mistake is all it takes to move forward.

what i have an issue with posts on this thread is "excuses" with behavior ergo one doesnt own it and cant move forward.

[closeupready]

390. Okay, sounds fine to me; maybe we are simply misreading each other?

I'm just going to end my participation in this thread, but know that I strongly disapprove of this type of behavior. :mad:

Cheers. :hi:

[seabeyond]

393. back atcha.... nt

[bamacrat]

352. Yeah I know especially in Alabama where I grew up...

but no teacher ever saw we were sneaky. I did have one female friend who was a big girl that used to get mad at the girls who would do this and knock the crap out of them when they would do this. Of course we always waited until she wasn't looking as well.

[closeupready]

360. lol - I don't have

memories like that from my own younger days - I was gay, closeted and thus messed up in the head, so I was in my own world back then, kind of alone and didn't mix much, if at all, with the other kids. I do recall stories and rumors of sex parties and stuff, but I don't recall any of this type of open predatory behavior going on, to be honest.

[bamacrat]

382. I was never part of any sex parties. Much to my chagrin.

Mainly cause I was not mentally mature enough to handle sex and knew that. But I loved when the pretty (loose) girls got on the bus and sat next to me cause I knew it would be a good day.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

349. First rainbow parties, then pregnancy pacts, now this.

I say we ban Dungeons and Dragons before it gets any worse.

[Norrin Radd]

355. What the hell is wrong with these kids?

When I was in junior high in the 80's, we had lockers that faced each other in little alcoves, with narrow channels in between. We frequently had to squeeze past each another in rush, as they only gave us a few minutes to get to disparate ends of the crowded, spread out, one floor school building. One day I turned so as not to face a girl while we had to squeeze past one another, and my hip stuck for a uncomfortable moment between her bum cheeks (she was wearing loose shorts) that seemed to be stuck in an embarrassing eternity while we waited for the cramped crowd to get moving again; I hastily apologized. I recall feeling really bad about inadvertently touching her there; it astounds me and boggles my mind that those boys think nothing of doing things far more violating.

[WinkyDink]

375. They merely observe the world around them.

[pipi_k]

387. This reminds me...

back when the Clinton/Lewinsky thing was going on, a couple of my Religious-nuts friends were outraged.

They claimed that kids were running around having oral sex because of Bill Clinton. Yes...it was ALL HIS FAULT!!!111!!!!


I don't usually bother discussing some topics with certain people because there's just no getting through to them, you know? And I don't deal well with frustration.

Anyway, I just had to point out that I was giving blow jobs long before Bill Clinton made it "OK" to do.

They never brought it up again.


:7

[WinkyDink]

372. "Many parents consider scooping sexual assault." THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS, DOOFUS REPORTER.

[proud2BlibKansan]

379. They were doing this in the 60s when I was in junior high

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

383. And they'll be doing it forty years from now....

:eyes:

[amborin]

391. one trend follows another...remember 'swirling' in nyc pools?

think it was called 'swirling', or something similar

[Zoeisright]

394. That happened to me in 7th grade. In front of the CHRISTIAN school I attended.

I've never forgotten it. And to this day I can't stand having a man stand behind me.

'Christians' my ass.

[noamnety]

409. If the student had groped a teacher instead of a fellow student

I wonder if they would have been so dismissive - or if they figure their female teachers should shrug off being "felt up" by all their students.

I wonder if the men at DU think women teachers should be willing to be groped by their students. What's an acceptable amount to put up with? Once a month? Once a week? Should a woman teacher be willing to have her crotch grabbed by each of her students at least once ... so long as they each get a "sternly worded speech" from a parent afterwards?

[seabeyond]

419. it is merely a boy acting out his sexual curiosity. thru out the thread

the shift of the innocence of the boy has changed.

[etherealtruth]

432. WTF

I can't even stand to read many of the responses in this thread.

It is never OK to sexually molest someone ... NEVER! Molestation is not akin to throwing a spitball.

WTF

[noamnety]

438. Thank you!

If an 11 year old was guilty of breaking and entering, or robbing a convenience store, would anyone demand that the police shouldn't be involved - that the parent should be allowed to just give them a stern lecture?

I don't understand why sexual assault is considered less serious than robbing a store.

[bliss_eternal]

465. oh that's easy....

....obviously because property, money and stuff people might buy, is way more important than chicks. :eyes:;)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

439. We live in a RAPE CULTURE

That's a fact.

It permeates society, from the most mundane, accepted social interactions that recognize females only for sexualized behavior and attractiveness or excuse males for aggression against girls -- to the most heinous. In its most obscene forms, it is thrilling news fodder for talking heads to tut-tut over while simultaneously leering appreciatively.

[seabeyond]

440. it certainly feels like the first step to dehumanizing girls. no consideration in the girl and how

they feel. all consideration and need to feel empathy about what the boy is going thru.

it feels like the first step for our males to learn to dehumanize the females. for the female body to no longer be owned by the girls, but mere possession of the males.

so few men even consider all the women that expereinced this as girls, and what we have to say about it. dismissed. that simple

[noamnety]

446. Well, you know, the important thing

is that the boys shouldn't have to cope with any long term effects or consequences of sexually assaulting someone. Their consequences should end with the lecture, maybe being grounded for a week if the parents are extra strict.

The long term effect on the girls, the consequences for victims who are assaulted <-- deleted due to lack of interest.

[seabeyond]

447. boys shouldn't have to cope with any long term effects or consequences of sexually assaulting someon

exactly. kinda a whacky universe thing going on.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

461. exactly exactly exactly!

Yes, it's a two way street...too many men/boys have no concept of a girl's or woman's experience, and certainly no empathy for it. Try to explain your experience to a guy and most of them not only don't get it, but are unwilling to consider it. They reflexively and stubbornly dismiss you as hysterical, silly, resentful....whatever bullshit picture they have in their head that shuts you down and supports the inability to introspect.

Personally, I think you can't understnad society or culture without working continually on understanding self first. Understanding and engaging in the effort to transform weaknesses as an ongoing practice is necessary to self-change, which is the foundation for changing the environment. Ripples on a pond, if you know what I mean.... That's why stubborn ignorance is sooooooo fucking frustrating, to me anyway.....


I remember ONE public service announcement I heard on Air America radio channel years ago. It only got played a few times (*sigh* :( )...but it was geared towards men, aiming to open their eyes about the harmful stereotypes of women that we see all around us. It threw a light on how untrue those images are and encouraged men to help their sons (or other boys in their lives) recognize that. I was FLOORED because it was SO UNIQUE. I had NEVER EVER heard anything like that in media before, that men and boys have a responsibility to see the violence and dehumanization of women and change their beliefs. Haven't heard anything like it since, either. x( :( :mad:

[raccoon]

462. Amen to that:

"too many men/boys have no concept of a girl's or woman's experience, and certainly no empathy for it. Try to explain your experience to a guy and most of them not only don't get it, but are unwilling to consider it. They reflexively and stubbornly dismiss you as hysterical, silly, resentful...."

[Odin2005]

456. +1

[shintao]

445. Disturbing

It seems schools are really getting out of control, from all points of view. Teachers are doing things I can't believe they should even have the nerve to do (lapdancing, lent), Principals watching student cams at home, the children rebelling every chance they get (fighting, scooping, sex in bathrooms), etc.

I can't help but think there should be a major congressional hearing and get these schools under control, set down some get tuff guidelines for school employees to follow and use. Maybe give all these teachers and school workers a psychological evaluation and see where their minds are at. I doubt it is any better in a private school either, it is a national problem.

[devilgrrl]

451. An alarming trend that's been going on for generations!

Where was this article when I was in Jr. High School in the mid-70's?

[boobooday]

466. This happened to me every day in the sixth grade

Early seventies. Adults didn't seem too concerned.

Then again, they also weren't too concerned when I finally lost it and beat the holy hell out of the kid who was the worst offender. I had taken all I could, and I ended up sitting on him on the playground,holding his ears, and smashing his head into the asphalt.

It is definitely sexual assault, and the adults should intervene. The worst part for me was that nobody seemed to care. It is sexual bullying.

[Ms. Toad]

468. New?

I experienced it in 1968 - in 7th grade.