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Biden on MTP - "I voted for the President NOT To Go To War"

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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:20 AM
Original message
Biden on MTP - "I voted for the President NOT To Go To War"
says the resolution he voted for (war) supported letting inspectors back in.

:crazy:

:wtf:

oh man
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm watching in shock and awe n/t
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Also repeated the canard that 'everyone thought Saddam had WMDs', n/t
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Brainwashed Biden, like so many others. This admin did their job well. nt
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Nobody views Biden as a serious contender, do they? I mean, WTH?
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. unfortunately, i think he is
that great 'centrist' movement out there :eyes:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. Biden is a legend in his own mind
One of the top three will get the nomination unless Gore gets in the water, then he might.

Kucinich and maybe Gravel are running to air a message. The others, Biden included, are wasting time and money.

Frankly, I'm less interested in making Senator Clinton, Senator Obama or Mr. Edwards president in 2008 as I am in making Speaker Pelosi president in 2007.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Damage control.
Russert handed him a shovel, and Biden dug the hole and jumped in.

I keep trying to like Biden...
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I find him likeable, all right. But unsuitable for the job he's interviewing for.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
Edited on Sun Apr-29-07 09:36 AM by dave_p
(For such was its title, and its content)

War is peace! Freedom is slavery! Welcome to JoeWorld!

US policy already required compliance with UN inspection requirements.

H J Res 114 did not strengthen that requirement. It authorized the use of force as The President considered appropriate.

Why didn't these clowns do their job?
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. Does any blogger keepa count of how many times Biden gets to
go on corporate tv compared to all other Dems in Washington? Biden is a DLC set-up.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. laughable.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. Joe just ate Rudy for breakfast.
Chewed him into small pieces and spit him out.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
12. I do not know why...
many people here at DU were so impressed with Biden after the debate last Thursday night....he lost my vote by saying everyoe thought Sadaam had WMD....NOT FUCKING TRUE! CIA had doubts, UN had serious doubts, department of state, energy, etc...
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. In fairness...
One must remember that Congress was working with the information they were being given, the cooked books, from State, CIA, Defense and the NSA. Now, WE might have known that this was highly-cooked information that bore no resemblance to any perceivable reality. That said, Congress was safe and comfortable in its Washington cocoon, where if was inconceivable that the administration would give bad intel and lie to Congress.

Remember: At that time, Congress was hardly listening to people like us, pukes and Dems alike.

Members of Congress are not always the most worldly and skeptical of creatures. Some are downright naive, too many are dumber than a bag of hair. Damn near flatline EEG.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:48 AM
Original message
In fairness...
we here at DU at the time were DIGGING UP the truth AND calling/emailing Congress WITH the TRUE information we uncovered. Will Pitt's book with Ritter, our PNAC research, etc... were GIVEN to Congress hundreds of times.

No, Congress wasn't listening to us and now they claim ignorance. No sale.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. Trust me, Matcom:
I am not defending them in general, or Biden, the "great mind" in particular. Frankly, I consider him a gigantic ego that exists only as a life-support system for some very expensive hair plugs.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. LOL. The BEST description of Biden I've seen.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
43. Don't forget that bright'n shiny enamel grin.
It could blow out pixels in your monitor. :D


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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
36. As Kucinich pointed out during the debate Thursday, the information was available
to anyone who wanted it, and he didn't vote for the war.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
39. Yep. I was doing the same
they knew it. they damn well knew it
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Oh, stop using logic and fairness.
You know that's not considered appropriate here at DU.

:sarcasm:
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. even if wmd was true (doubtful)
still no reason to invade given inspectors were handling the situation and saddam was cooperating!!
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I agree.
n/t
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. Inspectors were not in Iraq
at the time of the IWR vote.

U.N. inspectors went back to Iraq for the first time in four years in late November and discovered no weapons of mass destruction during 3½ months of searching.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/17/iraq/main549793.shtml


This is Bush's war.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
37. YOU ARE WRONG....
the evidenve was there that would have led any congress person to see the truth....Kennedy is one example of a senator who asked the questions, did the research and knew the claims of WMD were phony. Yes, Bush lied to congress about the threat from Iraq but if any person, included people like us, wanted the truth, it was there....Knight Ridder even got to the truth before the war and they did not have the type of access to CIA officials as congress people have. I did the research jyself before the war and figured it out. NO EXCUSES FOR VOTING FOR THE ILLEGAL WAR!
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. If Kennedy KNEW there were not WMD
he likely would have voted against the Levin amendment too. What would then be the point of going to the UN on Iraq?

No one KNEW there were no weapons:

- no inspectors were in for 4 years.

- there were unsecured nuclear bombs in the former USSR

- other countries (Pakistan) had built WMD without being observed.

The Durbin amendment tried to make the IWR more restrictive. It didn't pass.

Biden is accurate that Biden/Lugar would have been more restrictive - but it was leiberman and Gepheart sold those efforts out by agreeing to the IWR with the changes they had already made. (Other people have said the same thing).

The fact is that just as Bush had a signing statement when he signed the IWR that said it did not restrict him - he would have done the same thing with the Levin or Biden/Lugar amendments. Oh, and had NOTHING passed, we likely would have been at war 5 months earlier and as the inspectors never would have been in so we would not know that there were no WMD.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. He also said "CHENEY WAS RIGHT."
He said it, yup he did. Right on MTP. Watch the tape. Of course, he tries to tap dance around it, but in defending his own horrible votes for the war he pulled out the old "Everybody thought he had WMD" chestnut. And said "Cheney didn't just make this stuff up," or something like that.

Yes, Joe. Cheney DID make this stuff up.

.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
14. lying bastard....
That statement goes WAY beyond political nonsense into the realm of baldfaced lie.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
16. The ever-popular "I wuz fooled" CYA brand of politics.
A statement that should disqualify any candidate running as too stupid to hold public office.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:57 AM
Original message
I want an hour of my life back
What a complete, utter waste of time. Fifty minutes of Bloviating Joe, prevaricating, equivocating, tap dancing, changing history. I guess it kept Tim (or "Chris" as Joe called him! :rofl:) from actually having to address any of the news which broke this week. Oh...and BIG NEWS! Next Sunday, Tenet gets the hour to hawk his bullshit.

Timmy obviously wasn't affected at all by his expose as a total Bush cheerleader on the recent Moyers' special.

.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
24. TIMMAHHHH!
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
21. Personally, I Think Biden Is Running For Secretary Of State !!!
Think about it... we would go from not talking to our "enemies", to Joeplomacy. They'd give in to his demands just to get him to stop talking.

:evilgrin:
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
23. I don't hate Joe Biden
I feel sorry for him. he's a bright man who is 100% morally leveraged to his corporate masters. His chances of becoming president are as good as my chances of participating in a threesome with Lara Logan and Dennis Kucinich tonight.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
26. He did not say he belived there were WMDs. I must have watched a different show than you did.
He did not say there were WMDs. He said there were stock piles of weapons (and there were--remember?) He said the inspectors had a list at the United Nations.

He said he thought Cheney was nuts when he said the pipes were for Nukes.

He said the same thing that Clinton said about the resolution: he trusted Bush to use it appropriately. To use it as he had promised to use it. He said that the resolution was to show Saddam that we stood united and he better let the inspectors back in or we will use force.

Bush and the neo-cons have done a great job of twisting the vote, re-naming the vote. The media (propaganda machine) was successful in putting the blame on the Democrats for voting FOR the war. And, we buy it hook, line and sinker. And, now they are doing the same tact with the budget, defining it as a vote against the troops.

Why do we let them succeed?
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Although he said
they COULD, THEORETICALLY, be weaponized. Lotsa hypotheticals there. Also Saddam WAS a threat to us. Sounds alot like the words that got us in this mess.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. I apparently watched the same show you did.
I see most here did not. Part of the problem is that others here have erased all personal information that does not help them blindly follow their current primary candidate.

I understand that as we work through the primary season DU will look more and more like Freeper World -you know, black and white absolute positions on complex matters wherein every issue becomes over simplified, half-truth, lies and nonsense replace facts, raised voices, anger and attack when you disagree...
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. A couple of points here
I don't cast wholesale blame on the Democrats for voting for the war, because unlike Biden, Clinton, and Edwards, a majority of the Democratic caucus on Capitol Hill voted against the IWR. Hindsight makes clear that it's that majority that showed proper judgment on the matter, not guys like Biden. I'm not saying that folks who made the wrong choice back then should be kicked off the team, but should we really be giving them the leadership positions and making them our spokespeople? A couple hundred or so Democrats had the courage to vote against the IWR at a time when people who didn't "support the president" were accused of being traitors. Shouldn't these be the people we send to the Sunday morning talk shows every week, instead of Biden (who's on so frequently he might as well have his own show.)

Secondly, if folks like Biden voted for the IWR foolishly thinking that Bush would use it responsibly, then why weren't they screaming to anyone who would listen when it was becoming clear that Bush was being irresponsible. The saber-rattling and bellicosity from the White House ramped up dramatically between the passage of the IWR and the beginnning of the invasion, yet during this period there wasn't too much resistance from Democrats who voted for the IWR. Should not have Biden's ilk have been the most vocal critics of the war from the very beginning given that their trust was betrayed?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. Agreed - it is Bush's war
The only problem I have is that as this was Biden's and Clinton's reason for voting, why were they silent in early 2003. That's after the inspectors were finding nothing. Both would have had no trouble finding a chance to speak out. (Edwards is a different story as he was for invading at that point)

The only reason I can think of was the fear of a political cost. They also showed none of the anger of being lied to that you would expect.
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. well he is partially right (The inspectors were already there)
And why over the years haven't Democrats stood up and explained this issue to the public. Now the corporate media jumped on Bush's bandwagon and kept explaining that the Iraqi war vote was an authorization to attack Iraq.This is totally false.The vote was... unless the weapons inspectors were allowed to continue their work than the President was authorized to use force subject to the approval of the UN..That's it.
What happen..Bush called the inspectors home and launched the attack.They were doing their job but just weren't finding any WMD's and the rest is history..Why didnt the Democrats stand up and say the President did not have this blanket authorization.
The media did a fine job of convincing the public that the invasion was authorized and in fact it was not. And here we are 3300+ lives later, some are defining what the Iraq war bill actually stated.Where were these people 6 years ago..
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Simple
"Why didnt the Democrats stand up and say the President did not have this blanket authorization?"

Simple. because he did have that blanket authorization. They'd voted it.

Why didn't these clowns do their job?
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
42. No this President did not have blanket authority by Congress.
It was only if the inspectors were not allowed to do their job and as per UN Security Council resolution. * snubbed the UN called the inspectors home and attacked...The corporate media kept reporting this was an authorization to attack and it wasn't..
Here is a link...

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution_2.htm
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
29. I think he's right.
IMO,at least part of Biden's statement is true. The IWR did specifically support the UN res requiring letting weapons inspectors in.
That doesn't mean anyone should have voted for it, certainly in hindsight most agree they should not have, but the IWR specifically required compliance with the inspections provisions of th UN security council and for diplomatic efforts to be exhausted.
Bush ignored the fact that the inspectors were in Iraq, ignored the sections of the IWR that related to diplomatic efforts, and did what the hell he wanted to do anyway.
He would have, with or without the IWR.
The problem I have with the IWR is not so much with the authority in the resolution, but the person that authority was given to.
I'm not a big Biden fan, I think he's a little smarmy and self-serving, but I believe what he said is basically true.
Anyway, that's my .02. This is Bush's war, and I'm not ready to shift any of that blame to the Dems or the vast majority of the American people (myself included) who were misled by Colin Powell and Bush's neocon cabal.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. No
The Resolution did not support the UN Resolution.

On the contrary, it authorized war regardless of the status of inspections, thereby undermining the pressure for complaince. If invasion was an explicit option anyway, why let the inspectors in? Amazingly, Saddam did. And the invasion came anyway, just as Biden & Co voted.

Whiy didn't these clowns do their job?
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
30. Biden is a typical DLC member
Enables republicans then tries to lie and/or spin his way out of having done so.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
31. Joe's new campaign symbol.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
38. Nice try
And so the corollary of this is that the one hundred plus congresscritters smart enough to vote AGAINST the IWR were "not supporting inspections"?

:crazy:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. what's wrong with that?
Isn't that what most of the Dems who voted "yes" have said? Lieberman is the only one I can think of who actually voted for war.

The real problem with the IWR is that the anti-war left joined hands with the right in portraying the IWR as a "vote for war".

That was Rove's plan all along....

And you're continuing to help him.

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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
46. A blast from the past
Feingold's (partial) statement on the Senate floor as to why he wouldn't support the IWR:

An invasion of Iraq in the next few weeks or months could in fact be very counterproductive. In fact, it could risk our national security.

In any event, I oppose this resolution because of the continuing unanswered questions, including the very important questions about what the mission is here, what the nature of the operation will be, what will happen concerning weapons of mass destruction in Iraq as the attack proceeds and afterward, and what the plan is after the attack is over. In effect, Mr. President, we're being asked to vote on something that is unclear. We don't have answers to these questions. We're being asked to vote on something that is almost unknowable in terms of the information we've been given.


In my judgment, the issue that presents the greatest potential threat to U.S. national security, Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, has not been addressed in any comprehensive way by the Administration to date. Of course, I know that we don't need to know all the details, and we don't have to be given all the details, and we shouldn't be given all the details. But we've got to be given some kind of a reasonable explanation. Before we vote on this resolution, we need a credible plan for securing W.M.D. sites and not allowing materials of concern to slip away during some chaotic course of action. I know that's a tall order, but, Mr. President, it's a necessary demand.

As I said, I agree with the Administration when it asserts that returning to the same restricted weapons inspection regime of the recent past is not a credible policy for addressing the W.M.D. problem in Iraq. But, Mr. President, there is nothing credible about the we'll-figure-that-out-later approach that we've heard to date. What if actors competing for power in a post-Hussein world have access to W.M.D.? What if there is chaos in the wake of the regime's fall that provides new opportunities for nonstate actors, including terrorist organizations, to bid on the sinister items tucked away in Iraq?

Some would say those who do not unquestionly support the Administration are failing to provide for our national security. But, Mr. President, I'm sure of this. These issues are critical to that security, and I have yet to get any answers.

Mr. President, we need an honest assessment of the commitment required of America. If the right way to address this threat is through internationally-supported military action in Iraq and Saddam Hussein's regime falls, we will need to take action to ensure stability in Iraq. This could be very costly and time consuming, could involve the occupation -- the occupation, Mr. President, of a Middle Eastern country. Now, this is not a small matter. The American occupation of a Middle Eastern country. Consider the regional implications of that scenario, the unrest in moderate states that calls for action against American interests, the difficulty of bringing stability to Iraq so we can extricate ourselves in the midst of regional turmoil. Mr. President, we need much more information about how we propose to proceed so that we can weigh the costs and benefits to our national security.

In Afghanistan, the government and President Hamid Karzai work under constant threat and instability plagues the country outside of Kabul. Many Afghan people are waiting for concrete indicators that they have a stake in this new Taliban-free future. The task is daunting. Mr. President, we've only just begun that task. What demands might be added in a post-Saddam Iraq?

I do believe that the American people are willing to bear high costs to pursue a policy that makes sense. But right now, after all of the briefings, all of the hearings, and all of the statements, as far as I can tell, the Administration apparently intends to wing it when it comes to the day after or, as others have suggested, the decade after. And I think, Mr. President, that makes no sense at all.

So, Mr. President, I believe that to date the Administration has failed to answer the key questions to justify the invasion of Iraq at this time. Yes, September 11 raises the emotional stakes and raises legitimate new questions. This makes the President's request understandable, but it doesn't make it wise.

I am concerned that the President is pushing us into a mistaken and counterproductive course of action. Instead of this war being crucial on the war on terrorism, I fear it could have the opposite effect.

And so this moment -- in which we are responsible for assessing the threat before us, the appropriate response, and the potential costs and consequences of military action -- this moment is of grave importance. Yet there is something hollow in our efforts. In all of the Administration's public statements, its presentations to Congress, and its exhortations for action, Congress is urged to provide this authority and approve the use of our awesome military power in Iraq without knowing much at all about what we intend to do with it.

We are about to make one of the weightiest decisions of our time within a context of confused justifications and vague proposals. We are urged, Mr. President, to get on board and bring the American people with us, but we don't know where the ship is sailing.

On Monday night, the President said in Cincinnati, "We refuse to live in fear." I agree, but let us not overreact or get tricked or get trapped out of fear either.

Mr. President, on the 11th of September, 2001, our country came under attack and the world suddenly seemed shockingly small and unquestionably dangerous. What followed that horror continued to be frightening and disorienting -- anthrax attacks, color-coded threat levels, report after report of terrorist cells seemingly everywhere. In the weeks and months since September 11, Americans have had to contend with these changes and to come to grips with the reality that this could happen again, that there are forces planning to do us harm, and that we cannot unconditionally guarantee our own safety. In this new world, we cannot help but sense that the future is uncertain, that our world is disordered, unpredictable, up for grabs.

So when our leaders propose taking action, Americans do not want to resist. But they are resisting this vague and worrisome proposal, Mr. President.

My constituents have voiced their concerns in calls, at town meetings, in letters and through e-mail or with faxes. They aren't calling for Congress to bury our heads in the sand. They are not naively suggesting that Saddam Hussein is somehow misunderstood. But they are asking questions that bear directly on our national security, and they are looking for answers, Mr. President, that make sense. They are setting the standard, Mr. President, just as they should do in a great democracy. Their standard is high. We should work together to develop a policy toward Iraq that meets it.


http://www.senate.gov/~feingold/speeches/02/10/2002A10531.html

If only we had more leaders such as Feingold.
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