Mayor plans to relocate poor residents to “downsize” Detroit

[Hannah Bell]

With the backing of the Obama administration, including a $40 million federal award for “renewal work,” Bing is embarking on a plan to expel poor residents from “desolate” neighborhoods and supposedly relocate them to more “stable” areas.

According to the Detroit News, the Democratic Party-aligned “Brookings Institution, local foundation leaders, several national funding groups and the White House offered financial support of up to $100 million a year for downsizing the city...”

Bing said he would use internal and outside studies to determine who the “winners and losers” would be. “If we can incentivize some of the folks that are in those desolate areas, they can get a better situation. If they stay where they are I absolutely cannot give them all the services that they require...”

This makes it clear that the mayor and Bobb are working in tandem to shut down services, including public schools, in the poorest neighborhoods and channel money into areas where only better-off segments of the population will be able to afford to live. In the end, this will mean driving the poor out of the city. To where, would be anyone’s guess...

Having largely destroyed the city, the Democratic Party is now parceling off its most attractive assets—the mayor has hinted that he plans to privatize the city’s Public Lighting Department by selling it to DTE Energy—and open up large tracts of cheap land for private investment.

The city is reportedly planning to offer residents 125 percent of the value of their homes, which have fallen in some cases to a few thousand dollars.

It is also reportedly planning to use Eminent Domain laws to remove those that resist, seize their homes and flatten them. The “legal” justification for the seizure of personal homes will reportedly include the dubious constitutional argument that a single house remaining in an otherwise abandoned neighborhood is “blighting” the city because it requires fire and other services to the detriment of the larger community.

In addition to other business interests, there is little doubt that Bing’s downsizing plans have the backing of DTE Energy, whose CEO Anthony Earley was one of the mayor’s campaign fundraisers. Shutting down large portions of the city would reduce the cost of maintaining power and gas lines and give the company’s “Revenue Protection Department” a smaller area to patrol when it comes to discontinuing service for non-payment or for those who have jerry-rigged electrical service in a desperate attempt to maintain heat for their families in the winter.

According to press reports, the Brookings Institution in a recent study identified another 50 cities besides Detroit, including Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Memphis, which need to “shrink.” In Michigan, the former center of GM’s manufacturing empire, the city of Flint is planning similar measures in a plan overseen by former Democratic congressman Dale Kildee.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/mar2010/bing-m09.shtml


Detroit's being ethnically cleansed for its next land boom - location, location, location

[cliffordu]

1. Land boom?

Who the fuck would build there that cannot already to so?

What are they going to do, make it attractive??

:rofl:

[gmoney]

7. well, you can't put in a serious project if there are stragglers

You may have six city blocks with a total of 10 occupied houses on them, but a developer can't just "work around" those 10 houses if they're going to put in a shopping mall or factory or golf course or whatever. I'd say that the owners of those 10 houses should maybe get some special bonus if the land ends up being used for a profitable project.

Also, nobody is going to build anything new next to houses that are ready to collapse.

And some sort of land giveaway is the ONLY hope that city has. "You'll build a factory and employ 2000 people? Yeah, how much land and utilities do you need?"

[vadawg]

11. lol napalm and then let the trees take it back.

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

22. funny how it's "attractive" five feet from the city line.

[vadawg]

38. same as lots of other geographic areas in the world, pretty obviously

the place on the right is a nicer place to live and people want to live there, and the city blocks on the left are not, i dont know what your plan is, bt mayby if we moved that line 5 streets left then the derelict area may become more desirable...

[gmoney]

63. To the right of the line, there are reliable public services and infrastructure

[bluestateguy]

2. Detroit is a dump

and I applaud what the mayor is doing.

[Hannah Bell]

5. noted. you favor stealing the property of the poor. & putting people homeless.

[bluestateguy]

14. Yes! And I'm also for murdering live kittens too.

nt

[Hannah Bell]

18. i knew it!

[Confusious]

137. Can you murder dead kittens?

I didn't know.

[Tailormyst]

156. Only if they are zombie kittens

[goclark]

10. I've been to Detroit and it looked liked a city of boarded

up houses ten years ago.

I was there a few months ago and it looked even worse.

It is a sad situation and in this economy, I have to agree with the Mayor.

[Pithlet]

16. It's bad. But I have an uneasy feeling about how the mayor wants to deal with it.

It's going to take serious and major progressive solutions from the state and federal level as well as local government, and it's clear the mayor has an almost impossible job facing him. But I'm afraid these are merely bandaid measures that hurt more than help, especially long term. Shutting off services and privatizing? Relocating them? Where? But it's tough. That has to be one of the toughest cities to find yourself at the helm and I wouldn't want to be in that position for anything. I hope that he's at least looking at other solutions as well, and that these are being considered only as a last resort.

[goclark]

70. I agree with you ~ his approach was not a good one nt

[Hannah Bell]

19. so if you owned a house you could at least live in, & the mayor proposed to pay you $2000 for it,

i'm sure you'd take it & go quietly.

even though you couldn't buy any comparable property with your $2000.

[goclark]

61. Didn't say I would take it and go quietly

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

I would be upset, hurt and do anything I could do to keep my house ~ who wouldn't?

[michreject]

95. 2,000 will get you a house just about anywhere in the city

Some locals, the whole block.

[Hannah Bell]

108. Those are the areas they're planning to bulldoze. Duh.

[Romulox]

51. Have you ever been to Chicago or NY? Plenty of boarded up squalor there, too.

:hi:

[Raineyb]

62. I suppose kicking moving people from their homes and neighborhoods is easier than

say actually fixing things up and providing services. This is typical I must say. Deny services to certain areas and force out as many people as possible. Usually these are people of color because let's face it most white people aren't going to make a stink if it's only happening to people of color. Then when enough of them have moved out you let some twit with a lot of money either fix up the house and start demanding services thus gentrifying the neighborhood or you give the land to some developer for next to nothing to save him the trouble of having to actually make the effort to buy the land from the people who were living there (because if they really wanted it they'd actually pay some money for it unless you can get the government to get rid of those pesky residents for you) and there's always people applauding this nonsense.

If the government didn't give that neighborhood short shrift and actually did it's job of providing services the odds are the neighborhood wouldn't have become an eyesore whose residents you're so quick to allow the government to dislocate in the first place.

But why should we make the developers actually pay for things when we can just force people to relocate for free?

[Hannah Bell]

109. what do you want to bet the services will immediately become available when the developers move in?

[Raineyb]

132. I never make sucker bets. And I'd have to be a sucker to take that bet.

I have no doubt that services will suddenly become available when the developers move in. That's their modus operandi.

[Donnachaidh]

3. I'll bet those poor residents didn't expect this kind of CHANGE they could believe in.

It keeps getting better and better, doesn't it?

Hey - a novel approach to the poor -- kick them the hell out. Let someone else deal with them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. This is not really going to be possible

Its not like the outer ring has fallen into disrepair so the city can shed it and remain otherwise intact. The bad areas are in clumps in the inner and middle parts of the city. If those are cut away, what about the areas beyond it? You can not have a city with discontinuous annular rings and clumps. I can understand how some level of contraction makes on paper, but in the real world, it does not seem possible.

[FarCenter]

55. This would be a patchwork of open spaces

And there are already large blocks of non-residential land use within Detroit such as rail yards, industrial complexes, parks, cemetaries, shopping centers, universities, etc.

The main advantage of consolidating open space is that water, sewer, gas, electricity, streets, policing, etc, do not have to be provided within the block of open space.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

101. Open space still requires maintenace and there are concerns about how polluted the land is

Not saying it can't be done. All of the issues, known and unknown,can be dealt with over time, but its clearly not the quick fix Bing wants.

[alphafemale]

6. I doubt that Detroit is ever "coming back"

I actually question why anyone ever focused an industial center in that hellhole of a climate to begin with.

And now? There is no industrial center in America. We make nothing. But we are Sandwich Artists.

[Pithlet]

9. Hellhole of a climate? There are far worse places. It's actually not that bad.

I grew up in Flint, which is about an hour north of Detroit. It snows there some in the winter, but not nearly as bad as other places in the US. And it gets plenty of sunshine in the late spring and summer. It can actually get pretty steamy in the summertime. I lived a few years in upstate New York. Talk about snow! Lots more there than in the Detroit area.

[Hannah Bell]

20. yes, it is. just watch. that's why they're clearing out the riffraff.

the reason it was situated there was convenient access to water & various forms of transport. still good reasons.

[Pithlet]

26. True. And people also don't realize there are still some pretty nice areas of Detroit

There are still plenty of nice neighborhoods and healthy areas. And its suburbs are just like any other metro area. One of the glitziest malls I've ever been in was in the Detroit area. Is it ever going to return to its Motor City heyday? Probably not. But an economic turnaround isn't entirely out of the question. And there's no reason why we shouldn't look out for the interests of its poorest and most vulnerable citizens. This move makes me uneasy, too. Step too far outside these poor areas, and property prices rise considerably. They'll be priced out. Where will they go with what meager money they were given for their property? Will they be able to afford whatever rent is charged in those areas. Whatever areas they can manage to find. I'm sure there will be all kinds of NIMBY to deal with. People who think this proposal sounds like a nifty idea imagine Detroit to be something it really isn't. It isn't a giant blighted stain and nothing more. It's a lot more complicated than that.

[Hannah Bell]

30. yes. the people hanging on in those depopulated areas include elderly

retirees who bought their homes 40 years ago & were priced out of moving when their neighborhoods went downhill.

and they aren't going to be able to move into *anything* with the 125% of "market" being offered when "market" = $5000.

[Odin2005]

48. I think Detroit has a beautiful climate.

Then again, I live in FARGO, I like cool weather. :)

[alphafemale]

103. lol! I grew up in the Pittsburg area

I now live in the Savannah, GA area. Since like '85. Take you own mind of what I think of cold weather.

[Romulox]

52. What a profoundly ignorant comment! nt

[FarCenter]

57. Iron ore from Minnesota meets limestone and coal from Pennsylvania

Make the coal into coke in the coke ovens. Smelt the ore using the coke and limestone. Convert some of the iron to steel. Cast the iron into engine blocks, transmission housings, etc., and the steel into crankshafts, gears, axles, etc., and assemble the parts into cars.

Ford did it all along the River Rouge.

[alphafemale]

102. Nothing like that will ever happen again in our lifetime

My father worker at Weirton Steel and retired after 44 years. That plant used to employ thousands and it went on for half a mile. Its abandoned now.

[blue_onyx]

67. Have you ever been here?

The climate isn't that bad. It's certainly not the harshest climate in the country. The climate here is pretty much the same as Chicago, NYC, and many other northern cities. So you basically question why anyone would be located in the north.

[alp227]

8. C'mon, it reflects worse on a government to let others deal with the poor

Obviously, Detroit must be really really desperate and thinks that it can get better PR without those gang members and homeless people. Now I think that Kwame Kilpatrick wants his job back.

[ibegurpard]

12. damn, if they could just get a hurricane to do the job for them...

[eeyore]

13. I think you've got it all wrong...

Here's another article about the same issue. What the city wants to do is consolidate in an effort to survive. How the hell you came to ethnic cleansing I have absolutely no idea. It's about civic survival, plain and simple. They do not have the tax base to support the size of their current infrastructure. They have no choice but to become a smaller city.

AP - Detroit wants to save itself by shrinking

DETROIT – Detroit, the very symbol of American industrial might for most of the 20th century, is drawing up a radical renewal plan that calls for turning large swaths of this now-blighted, rusted-out city back into the fields and farmland that existed before the automobile. Operating on a scale never before attempted in this country, the city would demolish houses in some of the most desolate sections of Detroit and move residents into stronger neighborhoods. Roughly a quarter of the 139-square-mile city could go from urban to semi-rural.

Near downtown, fruit trees and vegetable farms would replace neighborhoods that are an eerie landscape of empty buildings and vacant lots. Suburban commuters heading into the city center might pass through what looks like the countryside to get there. Surviving neighborhoods in the birthplace of the auto industry would become pockets in expanses of green. Detroit officials first raised the idea in the 1990s, when blight was spreading. Now, with the recession plunging the city deeper into ruin, a decision on how to move forward is approaching. Mayor Dave Bing, who took office last year, is expected to unveil some details in his state-of-the-city address this month.

more at link
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/ap_on_bi_ge/us_downsizing_detroit

[ibegurpard]

15. yeah, and how and where are they going to relocate the affected people?

that's the question that's not being addressed.

[eeyore]

17. They will have to be bought out

Federal funding is being looked at to buy out people in the affected neighborhoods. Scary and sad, but what choice is there? There is not enough money to support the underpopulated rotting neighborhoods.

[Hannah Bell]

25. they discussed this in the article. residents would be offered 125% of "market" value.

which is typically around $2000-$5000 in these areas.

i'm sure if you were an elderly retiree living in the home you paid off 30 years ago, that would sound like a great deal to you.

that should buy you 6 months in a roach hotel.

[Hannah Bell]

21. sure it is. you just keep believing that.

no infrastructure will be downsized. cause the new tenants are going to want to use it.

[eeyore]

24. I think it has a lot to do with physical size

The city police can't properly offer fire and police service to the current physical area. There are neighborhood that are all but vacant, houses abandoned and stripped by looters. Much of it is unsafe and is rapidly becoming a hazard to public health.

The city wants to consolidate its physical size so that they have a chance at providing city services. I know it sounds horrible to have to relocate people, but there isn't much of a choice, and nature is already reclaiming some of these areas.

This is the kind of stuff their talking about razing.

[Hannah Bell]

27. did you see the picture i posted? what is it about that border that makes

property on one side "attractive" & "viable" & property on the other "unattractive" & "non-viable"?

they're two feet apart.

[eeyore]

33. Many cities have that line - the other side of the tracks

It's unfortunate, but true. Where I live it's more a block by block sort of situation, a little bit more random.

This is about public safety and civic economic survival. I don't know the area, and haven't ever been there. I'm not going to debate what the city should and shouldn't do. But I don't know what they can do with places like this except raze them.

[Hannah Bell]

35. as i said before, no one's LIVING in that house. the city is proposing to BULLDOZE OCCUPIED HOUSING

& offer the owners a sum which won't buy them another home.

do you understand, the neighborhoods they're proposing to empty used to be middle-class neighborhoods & the people living there aren't all homeless drug addict squatters?

[last1standing]

29. You see the exact same view in Southside Chicago.

Why isn't Obama paying the mayor of Chicago to dislocate people there?

[Romulox]

53. Hannah, your posts on this subject are ill informed. Read first, then become an "expert" second, k?

:hi:

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

117. romulux, i've been reading about detroit since before you were born, "k"?

& evidentally your wide-ranging reading didn't put you in touch with the history or property development & un-development in detroit.

[Romulox]

145. And yet you fling around juvenile epithets like "ethnic cleansing" wrt to a city that is 80% black?

"& evidentally your wide-ranging reading didn't put you in touch with the history or property development & un-development in detroit."

Um, I live 20 minutes from Downtown Detroit. You article is ridiculous, and your readings have apparently haven't touched on the basic demographics of the city. :silly: :hi:

[Romulox]

146. Also, extra ROFL points for your reference to Detroits "next land boom".

Was the Detroit;s last land boom something you also observed before I was born? Because there certainly has been no Detroit land boom in my life time! :hi:

[Romulox]

155. Still anxious to talk about "Detroit's next land boom"---where'd you go?

:shrug:

[last1standing]

23. You can buy a 5 bedroom home in parts of Detroit for $8000.

If anyone doesn't believe me then check it out:

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/640-East-Grand-Blvd_Detroit_MI_48207_1116550370

Where does Bing, Obama or the Brookings Institute think a family of 6 or more is going to find a home in "Downsized Detroit" for $10k?

They don't. This is just more of the same thing that has been going on in the city for years. They're pushing out residents with high property taxes and minimal services in order to allow cheap development - sadly the kind of development that doesn't even bring jobs.

[Hannah Bell]

28. exactly. thank you.

[eeyore]

31. They can't leave these places standing. It's a matter of public safety.

Look. What are they supposed to do with places like this? These houses have been gutted and looted. They are falling down and being taken back by nature. The city can't has no money for police to patrol these areas. Fire services are horribly strained, and if these places catch fire they might light up the whole area. They can't maintain the roads. People will not be repopulating these areas under current conditions. It's crazy.

Check out this site, it's heartbreaking.
http://www.100abandonedhouses.com/

[last1standing]

32. Your right. They should raze those buildings, not the homes where people actually live.

And as I said upthread, I'll consider this a little less skeptically when Obama provides funds for the razing of Southside Chicago, which is every bit as bad.

[Hannah Bell]

34. no one's *living* in those houses. they're not talking about demolishing *empty* houses,

they're talking about THROWING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR HOUSES.







Grosse Pointe Park is an affluent city in Wayne County in the U.S. state of Michigan. The population was 12,443 at the 2000 census. Bordering on Detroit with frontage on southern Lake Saint Clair, it is the westernmost of the noted Grosse Pointe suburbs, with the oldest overall housing stock of the five cities. Grosse Pointe Park is six miles (10 km) east of downtown Detroit, thus is home to many who commute to the city on a daily basis.

[theHandpuppet]

65. Why not a trade?

How about offering the residents a trade -- their house which the city wishes to tear down in exchange for an upgrade, a foreclosed home in a nicer neighborhood? Goddess knows there are plenty of perfectly good homes sitting empty due to foreclosures and having new owners occupy those houses would be a boon to any neighborhood. Just a thought.

[Raineyb]

68. My guess? Because when push comes to shove they don't want those residents

around anywhere. By offering them money that can't be used to buy anything anywhere else they're hoping that those people will just go away.

[theHandpuppet]

72. Sadly, that appears to be the case

Because certainly there must be any number of nice unoccupied or foreclosed homes that could be made available to these folks if the city was genuinely concerned about relocating them.

[Romulox]

79. Some Federal Money to rehabilitate neighborhoods could help make this happen

Yours is the best plan I've heard.

[JNelson6563]

142. I grew up there

We lived in Detroit but had to flee the city after the race riots. Made the trek from St. Clair Shores to downtown Detroit more times than I can count. Went to see plays, enjoy the festivals, concerts, etc. You should drive from SCS or Grosse Pointe via Jefferson into Detroit sometime. The disparity is stunning. It's been that way for ages though.

The trouble with the current situation is that many of these occupied homes you speak of are in among the abandoned buildings. The population is rather far-flung, much like the more rural area I live in now (Grand Traverse County). People being few and far between is expensive business. The school district where I live currently spends a good portion of it's budget on busing the kids into school and home every day. Detroit can hardly afford this. And if you want to lure industry or farming or anything to the city then open land is needed. Clear the blocks of the abandoned places leaving maybe 2, 3 or 4 homes in tact. What to put into little pockets like that?

While I appreciate your concern for those with no power or influence you seem to be completely closed minded to any of the solutions being offered. Perhaps you should go to Detroit and share all your great ideas on how to revitalize the city with them.

Julie--who is grateful some are actually trying to make positive changes in this long neglected city

[slackmaster]

158. You'll pay about that much in property tax every year, plus that much again in insurance

Not worth it, especially when there are no jobs.

[KitSileya]

36. If they really intended to move rather than displace the residents,

they wouldn't offer them 125% of the current market value of their house, they'd offer them square footage-equivalent houses in the neighborhoods where they want people to live.

[Starry Messenger]

37. New Orleans but without Katrina

drip..drip...drip

[KamaAina]

73. When Nagin floated a similar "shrinkage" plan for NOLA

all hell broke loose. In fact, that was the beginning of the grassroots neighborhood-based rebuilding movement there. Perhaps Detroit needs a branch of the Neighborhoods Partnership Network:

http://www.npnnola.com

[Romulox]

80. New Orleans got a couple hundred billion from the Feds. Detroit got nothing. nt

[Hannah Bell]

111. To the person who advised me to "read":

"the Democratic Party-aligned “Brookings Institution, local foundation leaders, several national funding groups and the White House offered financial support of up to $100 million a year for downsizing the city...”

[Romulox]

143. Wow. What a comeback. You still know nothing about Detroit!

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

119. WHOA!!!! No we did not!! That figure is not even close.

The entire State Louisiana has spent $52.7 billion of recovery funding (nearly 7 billion of which are loans) as a result of the 2005 hurricanes Katrina and Rita, but New Orleans has only received a fraction. The LRA in Baton Rouge has kept a lot of the money to fund other projects, and to use for the recovery from hurricanes Gustav and Ike.

http://lra.louisiana.gov

As of today, most of our streets are in poor condition (almost every street in my neighborhood looks like the surface of the Moon), all of our sewer pipes and water pipes are leaking (causing infiltration of dangerous levels of bacteria in our water supply), and NONE OF OUR WATER PUMPS have been repaired (it floods throughout the city when it rains), and MOST OF OUR LEVEES HAVE NOT BEEN REPAIRED (after five years we are still in worse shape than before Katrina). The Army Corps of Engineers admitted, during a City Council meeting two months ago, that even after being paid to do so for the last five years they have NOT EVEN DESIGNED OUR WATER PUMPS.

Also, Americans from other states have stolen over a billion dollars from us in our time of need.

http://lafayettedivorce.com/258/fraudsters-stole-1bn-of-hurricane-katrina-relief-cash-congress-told

[Romulox]

144. However much they got, Detroit got nothing in comparison. So it's a ludicrous comparison. nt

[Swamp Rat]

149. That's because Hurricane Katrina destroyed New Orleans, not Detroit.

Detroit did not merit emergency disaster funding. So yeah, the comparison does not work.

Detroit does need help, and deserves it, but it will have to come through different channels of funding.

[Romulox]

152. And Free Trade destroyed Detroit. Usually we feel MORE culpable for man-made disasters, not LESS...

But Social Darwinism applies to Detroit in a way that it never could in New Orleans (Jazz > Motown).

Even on a message board, people evoke Detroit for mockery and derision. No sympathy.

[blue_onyx]

157. Unfortunately....

so many people, including Obama and many DUers, still believe and support "free" trade. I wish Democrats would do something to address our trade issues but that seems unlikely.

[Swamp Rat]

163. You are wrong and your lack of sympathy for New Orleans does not help.

The disaster in New Orleans was MAN-MADE: a federal district judge finally ruled that the Army Corps of Engineers was indeed responsible for part of the devastation in New Orleans' Lower Ninth Ward and parts of St. Bernard Parish.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8367702.stmhttp://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/18/louisiana.katrina.lawsuit
http://www.laed.uscourts.gov/CanalCases/CanalCases.htm
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf/2009/11/post_16.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111903999.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/19/nation/na-katrina-flooding19

Social Darwinism was applied to New Orleans over a hundred years before Detroit, ever since reconstruction. While Detroit was experiencing its Gilded Age the late 19th-20th C, up until the fall of the auto industry, New Orleans was being systematically repressed.

Jazz > Motown = absurd

[Romulox]

164. I have no idea where you get lack of sympathy--this is a thread about Detroit--

a city that was poorer than New Orleans both before and after Katrina. I didn't say that NO shouldn't have gotten aid--I said that Detroit didn't get any.

To me, it says a lot when even discussing Detroit's plight on a thread about Detroit! is considered "insensitive".

"Jazz > Motown = absurd"

It was obviously sarcasm; celebrities don't like to vacation in Detroit, so nobody gives a shit about the condition poor people live in there. Now how does any of this take anything away from NO? :wtf:

[Swamp Rat]

166. Ok, I misunderstood what you meant by "No Sympathy" nor did I get your sarcasm.

My bad. Apparently I have not read any threads that were cruel and unsympathetic toward Detroit. Next time, give me a link for context, and count on me to give anti-Detroit folks the red-ass. :spank:

Detroit does have a celebrity champion: Michael Moore, and I am very glad. I did not know the depth of the economic devastation in Detroit until I saw his movies.

As for Detroit "poorer than New Orleans both before and after Katrina," I seriously doubt that. The Deep South has been traditionally the poorest region in the nation. Perhaps Detroit, and the Rust Belt in general, has caught up to us? :shrug:

[Sgent]

120. Yep

and huge swath's of the city are made up of one house in a block with inhabitants, miles and miles of areas with no services (or very few), no access to health care, etc.

NOLA shouldn't have let people whose houses were totaled move back w/o a redevelopment plan either.

[nonconformist]

39. You ever been to Detroit?

These houses aren't worth the land they sit on anymore. I know everyone keeps talking about how you can buy a 5 bedroom house for 15k in Detroit, but they're not habitable. In some cases, they're even completely gutted and falling down.

125% of the worth is about as good as it is going to get.

Ethnically cleansed? :rofl:

[snooper2]

59. I guess I should by some rentals up there then...

$20,000
874 Virginia Park St Detroit, MI 48202$20,000 |Estimate My Monthly Payment|Get Mortgage Rates 4 Bed, 2.5 Bath | 2,000 Sq Ft | MLS #28175236 | Refreshed 4 hours ago











$10,000
14011 Roselawn Detroit, MI 48238$10,000 |Estimate My Monthly Payment|Get Mortgage Rates 4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,300 Sq Ft | MLS #20001011 | Refreshed 5 hours ago








.....FOUR BEDROOM HOME WITH PARTLY FINISHED BASEMENT, GLASS BLOCK WINDOWS. COVERED BACK DECK AND COVERED FRONT PORCH. ......RIBBON DIRVEWAY SHARED WITH NEIGHBOR.....ESTATE SALE........ SOLD AS IS.... SUBJECT TO PROBATE COURT APPROVAL....BUYER TO ASSUME ALL CITY REQUIREMENTS. 24 hour notice to show.. Property Features
Single Family Property
County: Wayne
Subdivision: OAKMAN WALSH WESTON
Year Built: 1920
4 total bedroom(s)
2 total bath(s)
1 total full bath(s)
2 total half bath(s)
Approximately 1300 sq. ft.
Story and a half
Master bedroom
Living room
Dining room
Kitchen
Basement
Master bedroom is 10.01x11.02
Living room is 19x10.11
Dining room is 10x13.11
Kitchen is 9.06x9.07
1 car garage
Heating features: Central, Gas
Central air conditioning
Approximate lot is 33 X 100
School District: Detroit



$17,500
18508 Mitchell St Detroit, MI 48234$17,500 Estimate My Monthly Payment|Get Mortgage Rates 3 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,383 Sq Ft | MLS #29069125 | Refreshed 10 minutes ago














THREE BEDROOM COLONIAL IN FANTASTIC CONDITION, SPACIOUS LIVING ON A QUIET TREE LINED STREET. 2008 TOTAL WINTERIZATION OF ENTIRE HOUSE TOP TO BOTTOM, FINISHED BASEMENT, HARDWOOD FLOORS ALL RECENTLY REFINISHED. A HUGE BACK YARD WITH A PRIVACY FENCE, LOT ON NORTH SIDE OF HOME INCLUDED IN SALE. SUBJECT TO LENDER APPROVAL. COMMMISSION, IF ADJUSTED BY THIRD PARTY. SHALL BE SPLIT 50/50 BETWEEN LISTING AND SELLING AGENT. Property Features
Single Family Property
Status: Active
Area: 05051
County: Wayne
Year Built: 1926
3 total bedroom(s)
2 total bath(s)
2 total full bath(s)
Approximately 1383 sq. ft.
Two story
Style: Colonial
Master bedroom
Living room
Dining room
Kitchen
Basement
Master bedroom is 13x10
Living room is 20x12
Dining room is 15x13
Kitchen is 12x10
Fireplace features: Basement, Gas
2 car garage
Heating features: Steam,
Exterior construction: Vinyl
Approximate lot is 39 X 159 IRREG.
School District: DETROIT

[hobbit709]

40. 21st Century "Urban Renewal"

Another way to screw the poor. And for some fat cats to get more money at the expense of the ones that need it.

[lunatica]

41. This kind of reminds me of Escape From New York

Just build a wall around it and abandon the residents to their fate.

[rug]

42. Manhattan east of Third Avenue was for decades a series of working class neighborhoods.

The demolition of the Third Avenue El in 1957 in conjunction with the zoning law of 1961 transformed it into the obscenity of wealth it is today. At the expenses of a half million working class people.

Land and law have always been the engines of class repression.

[KamaAina]

74. "the obscenity of wealth it is today"?

Young people priced out of the East Village are starting to filter into walk-up apartments along Second.

[rug]

85. The East Village has been gentrified for years.

Mark it. Hunts Point will be the next focus. It's closer to Manhattan than parts of Manhattan.

[Jennicut]

43. I don't think this would be a bad idea if replacing people with equivalent housing actually happened

However, the poor and elderly cannot live on a few thousand dollars. Even renting an apartment, the money would eventually run out. Obviously, the city is falling apart and stuff just needs to be taken down. But I don't see the plan for giving these people equivalent housing and it seems unfair especially to older people who have a house and are no longer even working.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. Too much wallowing in adjectives. Have you been there?

No really, have you been there? Do you know what it is like? Land boom? That lets us know that you have not been there. Many of the programs your source editorializes into monsters began as grass roots methods for the people to save their city. Farming the empty blocks, for example. They are farming in Detroit. Did you know that?
Ever been there?

[last1standing]

58. I've been there. In fact, I live very close by in a working class neighborhood.

So I hope my opinion has merit when I say the problem isn't in the "downsizing" but the way in which its being done. Offering people 125% on a home that has been thoroughly devalued will not give them enough money to buy a comparable house elsewhere. In fact it will not give them enough for even the most ramshackle hut elsewhere as values outside these poor zones are much, much higher. This will leave thousands with little choice but to leave the area or go on permanent assistance, draining an already impoverished state.

I live in the Detroit area and drive through these areas several times a week. I know how awful they are, but they do at least provide a home to those with little else. Taking that away without providing similar housing is little short of a crime.

And I notice that no one has answered my question about why the Obama administration isn't offering something similar to Chicago for their southside homes that are just as bad as these sections of Detroit. Why does no one talk about the poverty and desolation there?

[Hannah Bell]

113. can you read? no, really, can you read? "for its *next* land boom"

"grass roots methods for the people to save their city"

yeah, by dispossessing "the (poor, black) people" living in blighted neighborhoods.

"they had to destroy the village in order to save it"


& yes, clever one, i have friends in detroit.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

138. is that coming before or after the great garbage avalanche of 2505?

Land boom?

The city is trying to preserve its extremely scarce resources by condemning areas that are nearly depopulated, very much a practical endeavor.

[Jkid]

45. Why can't the mayor bring new industry to Detroit?

[AngryAmish]

46. 1. Detroit has an income tax (of all things)

2. The workforce is not the best. IIRC, something like 44% of the population cannot read at a 6th grade level.

3. Who wants to live in Detroit?

[gmoney]

69. because of all the blight?

The city is on the verge of collapse. Nobody wants to bring anything new to a city with that sort of uncertainty, and with such a perceived crime, drug and poverty problem. They might locate it in the suburbs, but probably not in Detroit proper.

Also, the city is going to have to take the responsibility for razing the collapsing buildings, as no private company will TOUCH the EPA headaches of trying to tear down old asbestos and toxic chemical laden buildings -- who knows what has seeped into the ground underneath some of these places?

My city recently lost one of our large employers because the white collar executives and employees felt the city didn't have enough to offer them, and that Atlanta did.

It's like dealing with an individual house -- some can be restored in a manner that will be cost efficient. Others will cost so much to repair, far beyond what the value might be even with all the restoration, that the only thing that makes sense is to tear down and start over. Detroit is having to make that call on neighborhoods.

This isn't all going to happen overnight. The folks in one area of subsistence housing that has a 10% density can be moved to another area that may have 30% density, but there are still houses to be obtained for the low prices. With the neighborhood at 40% density, it becomes more efficient to provide services and improve the neighborhood, and then folks from another 10% density area can be brought in, etc. And if merchants know that a neighborhood is targeted for revival, they're more likely to open things like groceries, banks, and other necessary establishments. Who knows, maybe these folks will see some growth in their property values in time? A lot of the areas they're talking about are not neighborhoods or communities -- they're just a few isolated houses, waiting to be robbed or vandalized or burned to the ground. The people who live there have to be living in fear.

It's not a great thing, but it seems to be necessary, like amputating a limb to save a patient's life.

[BeyondGeography]

47. Very ambitious; that will require levels of governance not seen in this country

You've got to be fair to everyone; those being re-located and those whose neighborhoods will be re-configured. You can easily see how that portion of the job will lead to a lot of neglect for the completely abandoned areas. So the plan, while well-intentioned, is quite risky. I agree with this quote from the AP article:

Maggie DeSantis, a board member of Community Development Advocates of Detroit, said she worries that shutting down neighborhoods without having new uses ready is a "recipe for disaster" that will invite crime and illegal dumping. The group recently proposed such things as the creation of suburban-style neighborhoods and nature parks.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gwckVe8gKZJKd2w-MpXWAIyZu-BgD9EAMQFO3

[Odin2005]

49. Bullshit WSWS spin.

Detroit has become too depopulated to support it's current level of infrastructure, it needs to consolidate into a smaller space to survive. Cripes, you Trotskyites are the last people I would expect to subscribe to selfish "I'm not moving, fuck everyone else" thinking.

[tammywammy]

56. +1

:)

[Maru Kitteh]

107. ++1

[Hannah Bell]

123. bullshit odin2005 spin.

[Ikonoklast]

160. No, he nailed it.

Your source is Fox of the Left, crying crocodile tears over the plight of the poor.

[Romulox]

50. Unrec; OP doesn't know a damn thing about Detroit. nt

[MrScorpio]

54. I grew up in Black Bottom

Up to the 70's, the city moved people out of that neighborhood, razed the homes and built some pretty nifty town homes.

Unfortunately, the rebuilding project was only limited to a section of the city close to Downtown.

I don't think that this is going to happen to the rest of the city

[Trillo]

60. "can get a better situation" yeah, right.

This seems just a frame that's been devised to sell the poor that their forced relocation is for their benefit.

Why not move the wealthiest, and force them to live in a new community with new neighbors? In otherwords, the loss of friendships and community, the people they know in their immediate surroundings, even the "stranger" they see walking down the street at the same time each day, all of this seems a steep "price" extracted, but it's being framed as a "benefit".

[Hannah Bell]

114. $2000 = 4 months in a roach hotel = "better situation"

[wuushew]

64. Why not salavage the the existing house and move it onto a new foundation?

Would that be more expensive than the 125% option?

[blue_onyx]

66. I disagree

I don't think the city is "being ethnically cleansed for its next land boom." The city had nearly 2 million residents at one time and now has 900,000. Something needs to happen. The status quo isn't acceptable.

Giving people 125% for homes that have little value could be a problem. I would prefer it if the city bought homes in highly populated areas, fixed them up, and gave them to people who needed to be moved out of depopulated areas.

I'm glad someone is finally dealing with the fact that Detroit needs to go through a major transition. While Detroit may experience an economic/land boom in the future, population trends aren't current in Detorit's favor. It's time to restore Detroit to the city it once was. It may never be as populous as it was but that doesn't mean it can't be as good of a city.

[NeedleCast]

71. You didn't say "ethnically cleansed " and expect me to take you seriously, did you?

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

75. It has happened here in San Francisco --

and is happening again right now as we speak. "Urban development", "urban renewal", "urban pioneering", "gentrification" are all just names for "ethnic cleansing" of neighborhoods.

The Western Additiona in San Francisco is the classic example of that: it was a solidly working class African-American neighborhood that wasn't quite as "nice" as other parts of the Cty. A plan was created by the City to "fix" the neighborhood. The result was a neighborhood all but wiped out of the "brown" renters who were replaced by white Yuppies.

Due to such projects, San Francisco is down to some 8% of the population being African-American. And the very last black neighborhood is now on the chopping block.

Bayview/Hunters Point is being targeted just the way the Western Additiona was -- they are developing the hell out of it, not for the people who actually live there -- working and middle class African Americans, but for the San Francisco elite they are hoping to attract.

[NeedleCast]

76. Urban development", "urban renewal", "gentrification" are all just names for "ethnic cleansing"

No...they aren't. They're not even close to that.

You have no idea what the phrase "ethnic cleansing" means.

[Romulox]

77. There is no gentrification in Detroit. Generalizing from SF's experience is therefore dangerous. nt

[Hell Hath No Fury]

82. I was not addressing Detroit specifically --

just the idea that real estate "enthic cleansing" does not happen in urban environments. It does, it is very, very real.

[Romulox]

84. OK, but it's frustrating when the specifics of Detroit are less important than some "broader point"

Not really referring to your posts, but rather the OP. It reads like it was written by somebody in Portland. :shrug:

[Maru Kitteh]

112. When you use the phrase "ethnic cleansing" stupidly, you diminish the term

And do great injustice to the very real victims of ethnic cleansing.

[Hannah Bell]

124. sure, that's why "expulsion" is part of the definition of ethnic cleansing.

which you apparently don't understand.

[Romulox]

154. YOU. HAVE. NO. IDEA. OF. WHAT. YOU. SPEAK.

What will it take for you to LISTEN once in a while? Jesus H. Christ! :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

110. I don't think I care what you think.

•The practice of forcing an entire ethnic group to leave a region. The term was coined by Soviet officials describing Armenian-Azerbaijani fighting ...

www.slate.com/id/1002514/


look up the definition of "ethnic cleansing". Every one lists "expulsion".

[Gormy Cuss]

78. To anyone here who thinks it's okay to force out those remaining ...

How many of you have had this happen to you? How many of you have seen your neighborhood flattened for the public good?

My childhood home was demolished to make way for a public works project. It was declared a blighted neighborhood (true.) The vacant lots were cited as one of the indicators of blight. The low rents and substandard conditions in some houses were too. The solution for the renters was relocation assistance or and higher priority on the waiting list for subsidized housing. Those who accepted the relocation assistance moved to more expensive and still substandard units. Those who went into subsidized housing had better interior space, but with rules dictating who could live with them and who couldn't and strong pressure to downsize to yet another unit when a child moved out. They also had little choice in re-entering the unsubsidized rental market because they didn't have money for first & last month's rent.

The handful of owners were provided with enough assistance to buy a house with the same number of rooms, but there was no help with the dramatically increased property tax burden. The owners soon became renters again.

We were displaced under a traditional use of eminent domain where there was little argument about whether an alternative would be feasible. The Detroit plan would be fine if it were limited to abandoned properties and voluntary relocations, but once they haul out the eminent domain stick it's probably time to re-evaluate the merit of the plan.

[Odin2005]

91. There is no other choice. a city of 900k cannot afford the infranstructure of a 2 million pop city.

As long as there are people insisting "hell no, I won't move" the city will have to keep paying for maintenance for infrastructure it cannot afford in places with only a few homes left.

[Gormy Cuss]

96. There are always other choices.

Top of my head, here are two:
-- Remove some areas from the incorporated limits of the city. This would work best for areas adjacent to other municipalities, particularly if those adjacent communities are built out and would welcome the expanded tax base. It might also be possible to carve out several smaller cities within what is now Detroit.

--- Plan redevelopment with an eye to preserving as many of the existing residential 'islands' as possible. The incorporation of green spaces for example needn't require demolishing whole blocks.


Usually the "hell,no, we won't go " people don't have better alternatives. Their community, as dysfunctional as it may be, is where they have stability.


eta: and unless the people are middle income or higher, when they move they probably won't be moving to a better community. No one will offer them enough money for that trade-up.

[Hannah Bell]

118. blind. here's one of those blighted neighborhoods - renovated into luxury townhouses

by developers.

http://detroit1701.org/Lucien%20Moore%20Home.html

Known for its unique Victorian-era homes and the famous locals like J.L. Hudson who once lived there, Brush Park was once a neighborhood of magnificence and grandeur. And then it fell.

Sandwiched between Mack, I-75, Brush and Woodward in Midtown, visitors for years only could imagine what the neighborhood was like during its majestic heydays in the late-1800s. Blight and neglect had taken over. Mansions slumped, deteriorating. Many were leveled. Streets crumbled.

But that's changed. A new wave of Detroiters is falling for Brush Park again.

Developer Jim Wickenheiser of Detroit Urban Living is one of the people behind recent projects in Brush Park like the Carola Lofts, the 12-unit Lamar Lofts and the 49-unit Carlton Loft-Condominiums. Brush Park is on its way back for a number of reasons, he says. “Its proximity to the entertainment district and the cultural center can’t be beat.” Even though it feels like it's right downtown, he says Brush Park also has the potential to have more of a neighborhood feel because it doesn't have the big skyscrapers...

Brush Park has its share of new construction, and many developers are also staking claim to what historical homes are left.


LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION: UNITS START AT $209K (most recent prices)

http://www.downtowndetroit.org/ddp/housing-sale.htm


Who do they expect to be buying them, I wonder?

Hint: Detroit surrounded by more affluent suburbs.

[Hestia]

81. Look at this - "Can farming save Detroit?"

I personally think it is a land giveaway to a hedgefund operator - why does a private fund need to be in charge of food in the Detroit area?
==

DETROIT (Fortune) -- John Hantz is a wealthy money manager who lives in an older enclave of Detroit where all the houses are grand and not all of them are falling apart. Once a star stockbroker at American Express, he left 13 years ago to found his own firm. Today Hantz Financial Services has 20 offices in Michigan, Ohio, and Georgia, more than 500 employees, and $1.3 billion in assets under management.

Twice divorced, Hantz, 48, lives alone in clubby, paneled splendor, surrounded by early-American landscapes on the walls, an autograph collection that veers from Detroit icons such as Ty Cobb and Henry Ford to Baron von Richthofen and Mussolini, and a set of Ayn Rand first editions.

With a net worth of more than $100 million, he's one of the richest men left in Detroit -- one of the very few in his demographic who stayed put when others were fleeing to Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills. Not long ago, while commuting, he stumbled on a big idea that might help save his dying city.

Every weekday Hantz pulls his Volvo SUV out of the gated driveway of his compound and drives half an hour to his office in Southfield, a northern suburb on the far side of Eight Mile Road. His route takes him through a desolate, postindustrial cityscape -- the kind of scene that is shockingly common in Detroit.

Along the way he passes vacant buildings, abandoned homes, and a whole lot of empty land. In some stretches he sees more pheasants than people. "Every year I tell myself it's going to get better," says Hantz, bright-eyed, with smooth cheeks and a little boy's carefully combed haircut, "and every year it doesn't."

Then one day about a year and a half ago, Hantz had a revelation. "We need scarcity," he thought to himself as he drove past block after unoccupied block. "We can't create opportunities, but we can create scarcity." And that, he says one afternoon in his living room between puffs on an expensive cigar, "is how I got onto this idea of the farm."

Yes, a farm. A large-scale, for-profit agricultural enterprise, wholly contained within the city limits of Detroit. Hantz thinks farming could do his city a lot of good: restore big chunks of tax-delinquent, resource-draining urban blight to pastoral productivity; provide decent jobs with benefits; supply local markets and restaurants with fresh produce; attract tourists from all over the world; and -- most important of all -- stimulate development around the edges as the local land market tilts from stultifying abundance to something more like scarcity and investors move in. Hantz is willing to commit $30 million to the project. He'll start with a pilot program this spring involving up to 50 acres on Detroit's east side. "Out of the gates," he says, "it'll be the largest urban farm in the world."

more at: http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/29/news...azines_fortune

[Neecy]

115. Interesting

After World War 2, there were some who wanted to dynamite Germany's industrial Ruhr and return Germany to an agricultural, 'pastoral' society.

Guess the jokes on us, isn't it? Our manufacturing centers are being turned into farms. Pretty soon we'll all be planting radishes for a living.

[Hannah Bell]

116. good catch. "urban farming" = confectionary for lifestyle liberals.

& nice free land to hold for the coming redevelopment.

"We need scarcity."

"We can't create opportunities, but we can create scarcity."


more evidence of incipient gentrification: "artists" moving into town:

http://faizahm.posterous.com/tag/development


There's a story people love to tell about Detroit. Beginning with the invention of the assembly line, it traces Detroit's rise to Fordist paradise, notes the city's role in the making of the modern middle class, and then waxes poetic about some urban version of the American dream that a combination of industrial restructuring, anti-urban federal policies, and racism brought to an untimely end.

The story's next chapter is thus about Detroit's decline; it takes us through deindustrialization, race riots, and the suburban exodus, and ends by speculating that Detroit is a city that has "outlived itself."

In a postscript, the story's author, who is now walking around "the ruins of Detroit" points to the trees that are growing through streets and factory floors, the houses that have crumbled into the earth, and the deer population that has colonized the downtown and concludes that one day, Detroit will revert to nature.

However spectacular this story is, we'd like to offer another reading. If left to its own accord, Detroit will return to the suburbs. Today it's the suburbs, not the indigenous landscape, that you can count on to fill in whatever hole civilization has created. Simply put, it's the most ravenous, opportunistic force around.

http://www.justspaces.org/theme05.htm


I spoke to a Detroit property investor the other day. He owns 40 properties. "The Detroit market is a fantastic market to invest in for foreclosures," he said. "I have never paid more than $20,000 for a home and routinely find deals for homes that appraise for $70,000 to $100,000."

Good investing,

Tom

P.S. As an investor, I'm very attracted to Detroit for these reasons. Next week, I'm flying to Detroit to look for cheap property. If you live in Detroit, do business in Detroit, or have insight into the Detroit property market...

http://www.dailywealth.com/archive/2007/may/2007_may_03.asp.


Ask a white suburbanite the worst thing about the city and he’ll probably say, “Devil’s Night,” which comes like clockwork every October 30th. And there are a lot of empty houses to torch in the inner city—about 80,000, according to Forbes. Whites take it as an article of faith that roving bands of black pyromaniacs emerge from the shadows to torch abandoned houses and slip back into the trash-filled darkness. These crude racial fears ooze out of our national press corps every year, right around trick or treat time. In the October 30th 2009 Time feature, “Can Detroit Prevent a Return of ‘Devil’s Night’,” white volunteer firemen are pictured speeding through the burnt-out inner city to combat sketchily defined firebugs who are implied to be black. It’s hard to know who the perps are because they’re rarely caught. So why are whites convinced its poor blacks letting off steam? Who knows, but the whole thing looks real fishy. It reminds me of the type of shit the FBI used to get away with in the Ghetto all the time: sewing violence to disseminate fear.

....Maybe so, but that was only one of a rash of serious fires in the Detroit Metro area last October, one of which claimed ten run-down homes on the city’s East side. Even Detroit’s own police had suspicions that speculators were behind it, using the fire as a cover to cut their losses and collect on their insurance policies.

http://exiledonline.com/slums-of-detroit-a-look-at-the-heart-of-americas-2nd-most-deserted-city/.


More than 20 years ago, I read an expose on the Devil's Night arsons, investigating a number of them & pointing the finger toward insurance fraud & land grabs.

It would be very interesting, i think, to do some property searches.

[LeftHander]

83. Deurbanization...loss of jobs...(Thanks to 8 Bush years)

Unfortunately cities cannot support one or two houses per block. Detroit cannot provide adequate city services to one or two units where 50 existed...no city can. THINK!!!

It is simply reality. American cities are becoming ghost cities...with large tracts of uninhabitable land in pockets spread throughout the cities center. Relocate people (fairly) Block off roads, shutdown services, clear the structures and let nature reclaim and repair the land.

This land needs to be returned to nature and let smaller areas form into "smaller cities" They can incorporate and and begin to break free of centralized service models and return to small town, small economic models.

Don't be stupid. This is will be happening all across the Midwest. Milwaukee has already begun to lay the ground work to become possibly multiple smaller cities. So services can be more effectively managed on less money.

Make no mistake about it...Republicans have bulldozed and blown up way more houses for highways and their wars than anyone else. They destroyed entire healthy black neighborhoods in the 50's to make way for the Auto boom. They didn't blow up white neighborhoods. They blew every other non-white one up.

This thread, in general is full of Democratic demonization and Obama bashers....it is just the kind of thing paid GOP trolls love to infest with their anti-Obama rage and do nothing rollover Democrat mantras.

Piss off.

[Pithlet]

87. That's the problem. Essentially the same solution to make room for those auto plants

is being used in this instance. Eminent domain is rife with abuse particularly in Detroit, and the displaced citizens are left hanging. It isn't knee-jerk Obama bashing to be concerned that such a drastic measure is being used to address this problem. The well-being of the citizens must be considered. It isn't enough to just say "Well! These neighborhoods are spread thin! Something must be done! So, this is okay!" These are people and these are their homes. They have rights. It has to be approached with that consideration first and foremost. The first reaction has to be "Are their needs and rights being considered".

[LeftHander]

139. If you don't have water or power...and no fire or police....

...why stay?

[hack89]

90. This war was lost 30 years ago

The Michigan congressional delegation played their role fighting every propose law that would make the US auto industry more fuel efficient, more relevant. They turned Detroit in to an one industry town and then through their shortsightedness ensured that the US auto industry would lose significant market share to the Japanese.

This isn't Bush's fault - this war was lost 30 years ago. We are just now getting around to burying the dead.

[LeftHander]

140. good point...nt

[Ikonoklast]

161. Dingell lead that charge for years.

And the rest of the car manufacturing world was dealing with the economic reality of continuously rising oil prices, and improving the quality of their products.

Magical thinking seldom works, as American car manufactorers wished the sixties never ended well into this century.

[blindpig]

86. Katrina in slow motion

same results

k&r

[Greyhound]

100. +01

[hack89]

148. Only Detroit's collapse started 30 years ago.

that's real slow motion.

[blindpig]

159. Not surprisingly...

That roughly marks the beginning of the decline of the working class in this country in general. It has been a cumulative process.

[Liberal_in_LA]

88. uh oh for the poor...hope they form a coalition to fight for their rights.

[hack89]

92. Detroit is geographically a large city

with a population half of what it was in 1950. With a tax base that has been destroyed by the collapse of the auto industry. With 29 percent unemployment.

I don't see how they have any other choice - at least one that they can afford and is sustainable.

[Gormy Cuss]

104. They can change the size of the city.

It's unlikely that it will get back to its former size any time soon, so perhaps rather than trying to sustain a large geography as one city it's time to divide it into smaller, more manageable units.

[hack89]

105. Smaller units wouldn't sustainable

you haven't solved the problem with the tax base. I doubt any adjoining town wants to take any of this land off Detroit's hands for the same reason.

[Gormy Cuss]

106. If adjoing communities are built out, they may in fact want to annex more buildable land.

Obviously that's not going to solve Detroit's problem since contiguous areas are the only places with that sort of potential.

Turning the city into urban farms isn't going to do much to solve the tax base problem. Ag land is usually converted to housing and commercial, not the other way around, because other uses return more in terms of taxes.

[hack89]

128. Why not create parks and greenways?

here is a chance to redefine what an urban setting can look like.

[Gormy Cuss]

129. Parks and greenways don't increase the tax base.

I like parks and greenways and think cities benefit from trees. I'm not against a bold new plan to reform a city into something that is more self-sustaining in terms of food supply either. What bothers me about THIS idea is the intent to displace people who have stuck it out and want to stay in their neighborhoods. The notion that paying 125% of an extremely depressed value is good enough just doesn't fly. Those homeowners will become renters.

[hack89]

131. Nothing will restore Detroit's tax base

they are a poor city with poorly educated citizens - they have nothing to build a build a modern economy on. Unlike New York, Boston, and other large cities they put their eggs in one basket - the auto industry.

[spoony]

93. Not surprising, Bing is a gigantic asshole.

As I recall he wasn't even living in the city, he had to move to Detroit to run, and since then it's ALL been about slashing workers' benefits and pay, and basically running things like any Republican would.

[harkadog]

133. I don't think there are too many Republicans in Detroit.

[Romulox]

153. To who are you comparing him to? Kwame? Coleman?

How exactly is Bing an asshole? :shrug:

[dajoki]

94. The poor are always the easy targets...

and "market value", what the hell is that? They are getting a screwing no matter which way you look at it. If they are really going to use eminant domain they should find homes for these people and PAY FOR THEM. They can throw in the 125% of market value to help them get settled. Overall the whole thing stinks!!

[musiclawyer]

97. Consensus seems to be that

the payout is insufficient absent actual relocation of residents to the areas to be be "infilled" I agree with that sentiment. The idea is bold. But I foresee failure unless the there is a gameplan, budget and timeline in place. Clearing land is not enough. It has to be put to use immediatelly , either ag preserve or vacant for potential industry/development, etc, AND funded--oversight, security, management in place etc. Even if you are goinng to allow a section of the city to go back to nature, the "parcel" needs to be managed. I read nothing about such protocols being in place.

[dajoki]

98. You make a good point n/t

[Greyhound]

99. Well at least we don't live under some horrid fascist state.

:eyes:

[lonestarnot]

121. How much more bullshit are poor people going to put up with before sharpening pitchforks?

[JCMach1]

122. Detroit is one of the Most Sprawled Cities in the Country (Map included)

[Hannah Bell]

125. Portland, Oregon - City 145.4 sq mi (376.5 km2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon

seattle, washington: - City 142.5 sq mi (369.2 km2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle

phoenix, arizona: City 517.17 sq mi (1,334.1 km2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona


shall i go on?

[kwassa]

134. I'm from Detroit and lived in Los Angeles .... which is 469.3 square miles

Detroit is separate from most of its suburbs, but the common factor is that both cities boomed AFTER the advent of the automobile which means sprawl. Los Angeles covers a much larger area, and surrounds certain independent cities. LA is very different in that regard. Boston, San Francisco, and other coastal cities boomed before the automobile, and are more condensed in their land area as a result.

I've driven through parts of South Central LA that also has empty stretches, but nothing like what is currently happening in Detroit.

Detroit has it worse than other cities, but this problem is not unique to Detroit, but true of many other rustbelt cities, where the jobs had left for other areas of the US or for overseas altogether.

I don't think Bing's idea is bad, I think the same thing should have been done in New Orleans.

[JCMach1]

135. It could possibly work if done for the 'right' reasons

I am always suspicious though... Tinfoil hat and all...

[Hannah Bell]

136. fine, let them give the people they want to dispossess another home.

not "market value" of their present home, when market value won't buy them another one.

[kwassa]

141. I would think they could literally swap houses out.

There are probably abandoned houses in the areas that Bing wants to see preserved, or ones that could be bought at low cost. The city could step up and do that, and save money in the long run.

[hack89]

150. Have their populations been nearly halved since 1960?

population density is the issue here.

[rucky]

126. If they have the money to buy homes at 125% over value...

why can't they use that money to improve the homes that are standing? It would get people back to work and improve property values at the same time. Plus allow people to stay in their homes, of course.

[nemo137]

127. Short answer? Infrastructure and services.

As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Detroit is amazingly spread out and depopulated (insofar as a city can be). Thinking of Detroit as a major city that works in the same way as a Chicago or a Columbus just doesn't make sense - the organizational infrastructure, physical infrastructure and social networks aren't there.

There's basically no way that Detroit's "coming back." There will always be a city there, for reasons of physical geography and long-term (at least on an American scale) human settlement, but the form it will take in the next 20 or so years will be radically different than the Detroit of the past century,

[Hannah Bell]

130. it's no more spread out than phoenix, seattle, portland, or dozens of other cities.

there's nothing special about detroit except it's been targeted for disinvestment.

[Romulox]

147. Unlike those other cities, it's lost 20% of its population since the last census. nt

[hack89]

151. Population density is much less

they have gone from the 4th largest city to the 11th in 50 years. They also have 29 percent unemployment. And an industrial base that will never come back. And no diversified economic base to fall back on. And a poor and uneducated work force.

You can't compare Detroit to Phoenix, Seattle or Portland - they have vibrant and diverse economies that attract highly educated job seekers from all over the country. Detroit bet everything on the auto industry and now they have nothing.

[Ikonoklast]

162. That is deliberately obtuse.

There are massive differences, you just ignore them.

[Hannah Bell]

165. poster was trying to make the case that detroit was an exceptionally spread-out city. it's not.

that's the only point under discussion in the exchange.