This morning on NPR, a ConsumerReports spokesperson inferred some of the runaway Toyotas were fraud

[divideandconquer]

He offered no proof of any fraud, just threw it out there. One wonders what it will take for Consumers Reports to be objective about Toyota? Today they really crossed a line and seemed like they were spinning for Toyota.

Did anyone else hear this like I did?

[ingac70]

1. Consumer Reports is a fraud. n/t

[Tesha]

10. And your proof of that is what? (NT)

[Tesha]

13. Yeah, that was what I figured. (NT)

[ingac70]

15. I have seen with my own eyes....

Consumer Reports give unequal ratings to badge engineered cars. I saw them do it years ago with a Nissan Quest and Mercury Villager..... and at the time they were both made in a Ford plant. Nissan got the better rating, WAY better. And it was the same fucking vehicle.

[NoGOPZone]

17. In my 2009 Buying Guide

The overall reliability ratings for the 2003 and 2005 Pontiac Vibe are slightly better than that given to the same year Matrix. I guess they missed those survey results when they were bending over backwards to favor Japanese cars.

[Jackpine Radical]

22. The ratings are determined by consumer votes.

There are many reasons they might come out a bit funny. First, it's different samples of people and cars. Statistics is just like that. Results don't exactly replicate. Second, there's the automotive equivalent of a "placebo effect--" maybe people expect the foreign cars to be a little better & are more forgiving in their ratings. Third, rebadged cars are not identical. For example, Vibes have somewhat different (cheaper-looking) interiors than their "foreign" relatives. That may affect judgments. Etc.

[Tesha]

23. You know, I think, based on your performance to date, that I'm going to need a link.

Generally speaking, Consumer Reports was well-aware of which
cars were "badge-engineered" versions of each other.

Tesha

[ingac70]

25. .....

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

See "Inconsistencies".

I'm not the only one who has noticed.

[NoGOPZone]

27. Have you noticed that Zatz will criticize CR for self selected samples

but then will include a link on his webpage to TrueDelta, which uses the same methodology? Talk about inconsistency.

Now in regard to the content you've linked, the data reported is the results of users survey, not CR's ratings, and as I've shown above, it works both ways.

[ingac70]

26. Here is another link showing bias for you....

But this time using vehicles that aren't equal.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Should-You-Trust-Consumer-Reports-18905/

[NoGOPZone]

28. Nope, that's not going to cut it either

that link you gave states that 'Toyota won the test' as if the purpose of that CR issue was to compare the acceleration of various pick up trucks. CR reviews includes a variety of criteria. What the author seems to be unaware of is that if the Silverado were tested with the axle ratio he recommends, the fuel economy would have been negatively affected, likely resulting in an even lower overall score for the Chevy.

[ingac70]

29. ..........

Giving the '07 Tundra (CAMSHAFT FAILURES) a predicted above average reliability rating while saying that the '07 Silverado is to new to rate is obvious bullshit on the part of CR.

[NoGOPZone]

30. No, it was based on prior surveys

Maybe CR should have printed something along the lines of "based on our recents surveys, we expect the Silverado to fail at an above average rate" simply to satisfy some people's perception of bias. We'd have to ignore that the same people would find bias in that statement too, however.

[ingac70]

31. "too new to rate" is just a flat out lie. n/t

[NoGOPZone]

34. You are aware that the model tested

was the GMT900 generation, first produced for the 2007 model year? And that at the time the article was printed, CR hadn't compiled survey data for that first year of production? Like I said, the CR is evil crowd would have gone ballistic if they had predicted below average reliabilty based on the results they compiled for an earlier generation.

[ingac70]

35. CR had a different excuse than yours....

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/08/pickup-truck-te.html

[NoGOPZone]

36. Really?

"We could have opted for a different axle ratio in the Silverado and the others that would have improved towing capacity and acceleration--but that would have adversely affected fuel economy"

Exactly the point I was making. Note also this section

This test was not a comparison of maximum towing capabilities for each truck platform. Towing capacity is just one of many test findings discussed in the report; we perform more than 50 tests on each vehicle. Remember that the Chevrolet Avalanche, which is slower and tows less than the Tundra, handily outscores the Toyota.

I guess some misguided souls were complaining about how the tested Tundra and Silverado did with towing ability, along with acceleration, in their effort to prove bias. Shame they never noticed how the Avalanche did when it was tested.

OK, so you keep jumping around as each point you make is refuted. Where now?

[sendero]

44. Anyone that has done any serious.....

... research on CR knows they are full of shit.

The only part of their rag that has any value is the Auto survey results, and you can get data almost as good for free on carsurvey.org now.

Glaring examples would be like when they were sued by Bose over claiming the 901 had "imaging problems". Their defense? The Rush Limbaugh defense, "our ratings are for entertainment purposes". They lost BTW.

Or when they decided the Suzuki Samurai was unsafe when there are several vehicles (Jeeps for example) that exhibit the same tendency to roll when steered hard at speed (this eventually (after 8 years) settled out of court).

It would be nice if you could just buy a magazine that would tell you what all the good stuff is, but there's no such beast.

[liberal N proud]

2. Of course, they just named the Prius a best value for 2010

Defending their reputation.


http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1132687&icid=HP1

[harkadog]

3. It will soon be out most of the reports were fraud or driver incompetence.

People love to blame accidents on someone else. Human nature. Others like to cash in on hysteria.

[Imajika]

4. I bet most of these stories will be frauds...

..the media hyped it, and now everyone is coming out of the woodwork for the 15 minutes of fame.

Not saying there wasn't a real problem, just that most of what we are seeing now probably really are frauds done for media attention and/or law suits.

You know how it is nowadays, anything to get on TV or have your mug on YouTube go viral.

[divideandconquer]

40. What about the over 50 and counting, dead people?

[depakid]

5. Of course they are- does anyone really think there wouldn't be tons of people tempted

to take advantage of all the press?

[tnlefty]

6. For years when I received anything in the mail to subscribe

to Consumer Reports, the mailing either hits the trash or is burned.

Sorry, I didn't hear NPR, I just don't trust Consumer Report and refuse to subscribe to it.

[LoZoccolo]

7. Well, I remember the Diet Pepsi syringe scare of 1993.

That was all fraud.

And one person said they found it in Diet Coke.

[Fumesucker]

8. This latest incident is pretty damn strange..

You can hear the entire 911 tape of the man's call here..

http://jalopnik.com/5489687/the-full-24+minutes+long-runaway-prius-911-tape

[PBS Poll-435]

9. Imply v. Infer nt.

[REP]

21. Thank you.

[pansypoo53219]

11. some maybe,

but my mom's toyota camry would rev up while in idle occasionally. but it isn't in the pedal. nothing i did got it to stop.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. You mean it went to high idle and then back down? Maybe when it was cold?

That's not problematic behavior, and not related to the current issues.

[Tesha]

24. You might also find it occurs when the AC compressor cycles on.

(Ahh, I see Xithras mentions that below.)

[d.gibbs]

16. Fluctuating idle is a symptom of many things in cars

vacuum leak, mass air flow sensor going bad, other accessories being turned on, etc. For most cars, as they get older, things start to get loose and sensors get worn out.

[Xithras]

20. That's normal.

It's the computer adjusting the throttle to compensate for changing load conditions, typically an engaging/disengaging air conditioning compressor, increased electrical load, etc. My Subaru actually does it as the seat and mirror warmers cycle on and off, because those require a bit of power, which increases alternator load.

At idle, the computer has to watch for increasing load conditions because, without any throttle applied, an unplanned increase in engine load can cause a stall. The fix is to apply a small amount of extra throttle, increasing engine RPM's, when those increased loads are detected or predicted. The computer then reduces the throttle gradually and holds it at a new position once the normal idle RPM range is reached again. When the load is released (AC compressor disengages, as an example), the engine will surge again as load is reduced. The computer will compensate by reducing throttle, but the surge still occurs.

[kestrel91316]

12. Hey, we live in the land of copycats. I wouldn't doubt for one minute

that some portion of the claims since this whole thing blew up in the news are just that. Fakery is the American Way in the land of "anything for a buck".

[Dreamer Tatum]

18. The impression someone formed is news? nt

[LostInAnomie]

19. Toyota is in the middle of a huge push to save face.

They are calling a in a lot of favors to try smear a lot of people they knowingly put in danger.

[Richard Steele]

33. Exactly so. nm

[madville]

32. They are correct, many will be fake

Con-artists are always looking for an easy payday. It's time to strike while the iron is hot.

[divideandconquer]

37. But Consumer reports is defending Toyota with no current evidence these are frauds

It's dishonest for Consumer Reports to portray an image of being all about the facts and then go all in for truthiness to protect their golden child's reputation. So far not a single person has been charged with fraud and so far over 50 have been killed. After reading Consumer Reports for over 30 years, i know in my heart if an American company had this same exact out of control situation, they would crucify them and demand they be put out of business.

[depakid]

38. How can anyone prove fraud when we don't even know the sources of the problem?

:shrug:

[divideandconquer]

39. Does Consumer reports really believe that spacers and floormat anchors will fix this problem?

More and more they look like shills for toyota. A better question is how the public can ever take CR serious about rating anything important?

[depakid]

42. Who knows? That's the point.

One would have to have just fallen of the back of a turnip truck though if they think there's not quite a bit of fraud going on with this.

[NoGOPZone]

41. Defending Toyota Huh?

By suspending recommendations for the affected models? By having a representative testify as such before Congress?

NHTSA and Toyota were aware of unintended acceleration complaints involving Toyota models as early as 2003, when the agency received a petition to investigate the problem. It took almost seven years for this safety issue to be more fully addressed with the current recalls of more than 7 million Toyotas. Consumers Union believes government regulators must be better prepared to spot and fully address similar safety issues going forward. We are pleased that NHTSA is now looking into potential electronics issues behind the sudden unintended acceleration (SUA) events involving Toyotas, and we look forward to the agency’s findings.


You'll forgive me if I can't put too much faith in what you 'know in your heart', particularly when it's something as strong as statement as 'crucify them and demand they be put out of business.'

Did CR demand that Ford be put out of business for the Explorer?

[divideandconquer]

43. The Explorer was not nearly as dangerous as the lineupwide toyota problem

The ford problem was one platform that when the tires were underinflated and the vehicle overloaded or driven at high speeds would cause tire failure. The toyota problem seems to go across the entire lineup of vehicles. going down the same truthy road as Consumer reports, I bet similar Toyota 4runners had as bad a rollover problem as Ford and it was just covered up better

[NoGOPZone]

45. You bet, you know in your heart

Forgive us that would want some documentation and would be confused how Toyota could cover up a rollover problem but not an unintended acceleration. Maybe they had help from CR on that coverup, at the same time CR was asking for federal ratings on rollover tendencies. ;-)

[divideandconquer]

46. Since Consumer reports knows in it's heart these Toyota issues are fraud

I guess I can know in my heart that Consumer reports is hoax.

As far as toyota SUV's rolling over, I talked to a Southeast Toyota executive when the explorer rollover thing was going and he said, 4runners were rolling over a lot and wondered why they weren't in trouble as well. It would be interesting to see a comparison between SUV's. BTW, here's a link to a lawsuit against Toyota for rollovers<http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/toyota-4runner-suv-rollover-lawsuit-filed-5310/>

[NoGOPZone]

49. You shouldn't assume others share your tendencies.

There's nothing stated, or implied or inferred, whichever you prefer, in anything Consumer Reports has published that would lead an objective person to believe that Consumer Reports is stating it knows these issues are frauds, and certainly nothing about them knowing this because they know it, or "in their heart".

Now if you want to link to rollover lawsuits, we can do that all day. While were on the subject though, do you know what are the two car companies sued Consumer Reports for claiming their SUVs had tendencies to roll over? The answer might surprise you.

[divideandconquer]

57. A Consumer reports rep said some of these cases of toyota problems will be frauds

This can only be guessing, since they have no proof, but sounds truthy and they have a lot invested in Toyota's reputation.

[NoGOPZone]

58. First you say it was 'inferred', now you apparently state it was unequivocal

Without any documentation in either time. Meanwhile, on Consumer Report's blog, they have and asking for people to share their own unintended acceleration problems, Toyota or otherwise. Interesting way of trying to cover up a problem.

The only guessing I can see is your supposition that Consumer Reports has anything invested in Toyota's reputation. Edmunds.com has a report out that some are interpreting as being pro Toyota, but of course, the CR is evil crowd won't be concerned if there's any bias there.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/03/2004-toyota-prius-three-ways-to-deal-with-a-stuck-throttle.html#more

[divideandconquer]

59. You don't think Toyota and Consumer reports reputations are linked?

Edmunds also seems heavily invested in the Toyota myth

[MrsMatt]

54. not to mention the Ford Pinto n/t

[divideandconquer]

55. do you think Japanese compact cars of the same era are different from Pintos?

Cheap small cars from back then weren't very safe

[Warren Stupidity]

47. The massive spike in incidents after published reports of problems

is best explained by fraud. I am however open to other explanations.

[Puzzler]

48. We've used Priuses in my taxi company over the last 6-7 years, and ...

... so have our rivals. In my city there are around three hundred Prius taxis (I've been driving one professionally, full time, for the past 4 years*). The oldest Priuses have well over 600,000km on the odometer. All of the taxis have been in constant 24/7 use for years with many different drivers, many different driving styles and many different driving conditions. So we're talking about a lot of hard, hard usage.

We have had NO experiences with any of the accelerator problems that have been reported. In fact we've had no bad experiences at all. The cars have proven to be very reliable, very efficient and very durable. (This includes the batteries too... we haven't had to replace any).


(*this means I've personally put over 250,000km on the Prius taxi I drive)

http://www.taxicab.com/about.html

[Fumesucker]

50. Funny how the Prius drivers that post seem to have good things to say about them..

Those who hate foreign cars and would never ever consider driving a "Peeus" though have all kinds of nasty things to say..

An alien dropped in here from the next galaxy over might think there is a hint of bias.

But of course they would be wrong.

[divideandconquer]

51. Dodge Challenger Beats Toyota Prius in Consumer Reports in customer satisfaction

So much for Consumer reports self selecting surveys!

<http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/07/dodge-challenger-tops-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction/>

[Fumesucker]

52. People who buy a Challenger have different priorities than those who buy a Peeus..

I'm sure a Challenger excels in those areas that Challenger purchasers value.. It is a good looking car that runs hard.

[Brickbat]

53. Spinning for Toyota? They've been doing that for the last 20 years.

[divideandconquer]

56. Here's another example of Consumer reports spinning for Toyota

Consumer Reports Bias and Toyota problems

I don't have a direct link because this is from an article from New York's Newsday Newspaper (May 21) , but I think it deserves a read.

The article is a one page blurb titled "Quality problems Beset Toyota's top-tier Avalon".

Basically the article discusses the problems owners are having with the Avalon and how these customers are getting the runaround from Toyota. Most interviewed said they would never buy another Toyota again.

There are two incredible quotes in this article-one being someone from CR basically giving an excuse for Toyota, a company she does not work for (isn't CR supposed to be independent and consumer oriented?). Here is the quote:

Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity. " These are first-year teething problems," she said. "We anticipate the second model year will be much better".

Teething problems? Steering, suspension, etc? If this were happening to a Chevy, anyone here think she would shrug it off? And she is the Amazing Kreskin, confidentally predicting all the problems will be fixed. She sounds like a Toyota Rep! Absolutely disgraceful and unprofessional if you ask me;
-----------------------------
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f29/consumer-reports-bias-toyota-problems-31708/

[NoGOPZone]

60. Not a particularly good example though

but I'm used to that by now.

Consumer Reports has long stated that first year models tend to be have problems that usually get fixed later in the production run, and you can find other sources which concur.

http://ask.cars.com/2007/11/first-year-reli.html

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide/lastyearmodel.asp

http://loan.yahoo.com/n/1030050403-01.html

There's nothing in your excerpt which indicates the spokesman is specifically praising Toyota. Ironically, here's a quote where CR's auto division director praised DOMESTICS for improving their intial year quality.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-11-09-cr-reliabilty-survey_x.htm