Chilling NYT Story: Does a shootout actually happen if the newspapers print nothing about it?

[Mike 03]

From today's NYT, re: Mexican journalists being bought off by drug cartels to dissuade their colleagues from reporting on the numerous homicides committed during these drug wars in border towns. But this is not just a war between cartels but a war against civilians, which amounts to terrorism.

Targeted by Drug Cartels, Reporters in Mexico Retreat

Excerpt:

The big philosophical question in this gritty border town does not concern trees falling in the forest but bodies falling on the concrete: Does a shootout actually happen if the newspapers print nothing about it, the radio and television stations broadcast nothing, and the authorities never confirm that it occurred?

As two powerful groups of drug traffickers engaged in fierce urban combat in Reynosa in recent weeks, the reality that many residents were living and the one that the increasingly timid news media and the image-conscious politicians portrayed were difficult to reconcile.

“You begin to wonder what the truth is,” said one of Reynosa’s frustrated and fearful residents, Eunice Peña, a professor of communications. “Is it what you saw, or what the media and the officials say? You even wonder if you were imagining it.”

More at link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/world/americas/14mexico.html?src=me

This is scary. Something like 19,000 people have been murdered by drug gangsters in border towns since 2007.

What is transpiring in northern Mexico now--and seeping into our own southwestern states--is really unforgivable. This has been going on for years and escalating to the point where it not possible to call this a drug issue--this is literally a war just across our southern border, which tens of thousands of people--so many of whom are not directly involved in the fight between cartel gangs--are being indiscriminately killed in horrific ways in order to send the message of fear to everyone around there.

I wonder if there is something the U.S. can do to help stop this if the Mexican government is unwilling, unable or too intimidated to stop it.

[louis-t]

1. I'm no gun lover but....

can Mexican citizens own weapons? Jeez, you'd think at this point they would fight back. I know the Mexican gov has corruption issues but people cowering in fear has got to get old fast.

[RexS]

2. Maybe most can't afford a firearm.

Or to get a cheap one, you have to work for a cartel? Dunno but the story is chilling.

[spin]

4. Mexican gun laws ...

Gun licensing and legislation for Mexican citizens

Generally, citizens are restricted by law to:

* pistolas (handguns) of .380 Auto or .38 Special revolvers or smaller in either case,
* escopetas (shotguns) of 12 gauge or smaller, with barrels longer than 25 inches, and
* rifles (rifles) bolt action and semi-auto.

Handguns in calibers bigger than those mentioned above are forbidden from private ownership.

Examples of firearms that are legal for citizens to own include .380 ACP pistols (such as the Glock 25); .38 Special revolvers, 12 gauge shotguns (no short-barreled shotguns are allowed) and rifles in any caliber up to .30 caliber.

Permits for the transportation and use of such non-military caliber firearms are issued for one year terms by SEDENA (Secretaría de la Defensa Nacional) and may be applied for up to 10 firearms, total, for each designated and planned use that is legally authorized. These uses may include hunting or shooting at a club or national competition. Permits are very easy to obtain, but may be only obtained by citizens belonging to a shooting club.

There is only one legally authorized retail outlet in Mexico City: UCAM (Unidad de Comercialización de Armamento y Municiones), run by the Army and able to sell firearms. It is owned by, and is part of, the government. Although there is no legal limit on how many firearms an individual can own, once any individual has purchased ten firearms from the only retail governmental outlet, he cannot get a permit to buy any more. However, private party sales are legal and are largely uncontrolled, and wealthy gun-collecting citizens thus can legally buy more firearms from other private owners.

Collector permits, somewhat analogous to the FFL Category 03 Curio & Relic permits issued in the United States, are easy to obtain from the Mexican Government and allow the ownership of a wide range of firearms, even including military firearms. For those holding collector permits, regular visits by the local military authority to inspect the storage location to make sure it has the necessary security measures to avoid the guns being stolen are a recurring fact of life.

CCW licenses are issued but are hard to obtain for anyone not wealthy and without political connections. In the event that an application is denied, the denial may theoretically be appealed at a District Court, but this never occurs in practice. Prior to 2002, CCW licenses could be obtained authorizing military caliber pistols. However, these CCW licenses were all cancelled, and re-issued to authorize only up to .380 ACP caliber pistolas.

Transportation licenses are required for transporting guns. Transportation must be with the firearm unloaded and in a case. There are no public shooting ranges such as in the U.S. and other countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. No, there are gun laws after all

For the cartels... so they are violating one more law... but most citizens actually like try to follow the law,

[apocalypsehow]

3. The U.S. gun industry and their NRA lackeys are the Mexican Drug Cartel's arms dealer.

They have no shame.

[spin]

5. Most of the firearms used by the drug cartels come from South America ...

and some come from the Mexican military itself.

ZIHUATANEJO, MEXICO, AND MEXICO CITY — It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

s→World
Drug cartels' new weaponry means war
MEXICO UNDER SIEGE
Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and anti-tank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.
March 15, 2009|Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson

ZIHUATANEJO, MEXICO, AND MEXICO CITY — It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.



The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

"There is an arms race between the cartels," said Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government.

"One group gets rocket-propelled grenades, the other has to have them."
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/15/world/fg-mexico-arms-race15

Because of the "narco-wars," the US government supplies the Mexican military with arms and training. The Mexican military has trained at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina, and the arms budget from the US to Mexico is in the billions.

Drug profits realized from the sale of drugs in the US by Mexico’s violent drug cartels are estimated to be as high as 40 billion dollars per year. With that amount of money, is there any question as to the ability of the cartels to purchase military weapons provided by the United States government from corrupt Mexican government officials and members of their military?

In the mid 1990s, U.S. government statistics revealed at least six billion dollars a year was spent by the cartels in bribes and payoffs to officials in the Mexican government and military.

In February of 1997, the Clinton Administration announced it was certifying the Mexican government as a "full ally" in the war on drugs. Clinton’s Drug Czar, Army General Barry McCaffrey, described Mexican General Jesus Gutierrez Rebollo, who headed up the Mexican National Institute to Combat Drugs (INCD) as a "man of absolute unquestioned character."(Emphasis added) Shortly after McCaffrey’s statement, Rebollo was arrested for taking bribes from one of the largest drug cartels in Mexico. Rebollo had been present at secret meetings involving the White House, the Central Intelligence Agency and the Drug Enforcement Agency.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gaddy/gaddy54.html

[apocalypsehow]

6. From your article: "the arms budget from the US to Mexico is in the billions" Kinda proves my point,

don't you think?

[spin]

12. We could stop providing the Mexican government with firearms ...

then the corrupt officials wouldn't be able to sell them to drug cartels.

On the other hand they would just buy weapons from other foreign countries and then sell them to the cartels.

It would appear that a large part of the problem is the corruption in the Mexican government, army and police. With the amount of money involved, our own government officials could easily be corrupted.

Our "War on Drugs" has been a miserable failure from day one. It's time to wake up and realize that the only way to decrease the magnitude of the problem we've managed to create by drug prohibition is to legalize drugs such as marijuana and cocaine.

Organized crime grew by leaps and bounds during the prohibition on alcohol.

"The reign of tears is over. The slums will soon be a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and corncribs. Men will walk upright now, women will smile and children will laugh. Hell will be forever for rent."

Reverend Billy Sunday delivered this quotation during a speech at the beginning of prohibition. Many people believed and hoped that prohibition would make the above true. However, as they watched and waited, they realized that nothing was improved, and somehow, things had gotten worse.

The following are statistics detailing how much worse crime got:

* Police funding: INCREASED $11.4 Million
* Arrests for Prohibition Las Violations: INCREASED 102+%
* Arrests for Drunkenness and Disorderly Conduct: INCREASED 41%
* Arrests of Drunken Drivers: INCREASED 81%
* Thefts and Burglaries: INCREASED 9%
* Homicides, Assault, and Battery: INCREASED 13%
* Number of Federal Convicts: INCREASED 561%
* Federal Prison Population: INCREASED 366%
* Total Federal Expenditures on Penal Institutions: INCREASED 1,000%


"Not only did the number of serious crimes increase, but crime became organized. Criminal groups organize around the steady source of income provided by laws against victimless crimes such as consuming alcohol or drugs, gambling and prostitution. In the process of providing goods and services those criminal organizations resort to real crimes in defense of sales territories, brand names, and labor contracts. That is true of extensive crime syndicates (the Mafia) as well as street gangs, a criminal element that first surfaced during prohibition."
http://www.albany.edu/~wm731882/organized_crime1_final.html

History is important. We always think we can improve society by banning, prohibiting and incarcerating. Time and time again we learn the same lesson. By the time we do, we have created a bigger problem than we ever expected.

There is a possibility that if we don't change our laws drug money will corrupt our own government from the local police force all the way to the top.

We provide firearms to many countries all over the world and we also provide many other weapons of war.

Recently, from 2005-2008, the United States and Russia have dominated the arms market in the
developing world, with both nations either ranking first or second for three out of four years in
the value of arms transfer agreements. From 2005-2008, Russia made nearly $35.1 billion, 22.9%
of all such agreements, expressed in constant 2008 dollars. During this same period, the United
States made $56.3 billion in such agreements, 36.7% of all such agreements. Collectively, the
United States and Russia made 59.6% of all arms transfer agreements with developing nations
($91.4 billion (in constant 2008 dollars) during this four-year period.

In 2008, the United States ranked first in arms transfer agreements with developing nations with
$29.6 billion or 70.1% of these agreements, an extraordinary market share for a single year. Far
behind in second place was Russia with $3.3 billion or 7.8% of such agreements. France was
ranked third with $2.5 billion or 5.9%. In global arms transfer agreements in 2008, the United
States also dominated, ranking first with $37.8 billion in such agreements or 68.4% of all such
agreements. In 2008, the United States ranked first in the value of arms deliveries to developing
nations at $7.4 billion, or 40.9% of all such deliveries. Russia ranked second at $5.2 billion or
28.5% of such deliveries.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/R40796.pdf

Rather than legalizing some drugs we have had talk of reinstating the "assault weapons" ban to stop the smuggling of semi-auto firearms across the border. Of course, the assault weapons ban was also another example of how banning and prohibiting fails as it accomplished little or nothing and popularized the very weapons it attempted to prohibit. Currently semi-auto "assault weapons" are the most popular selling firearms in the U.S. The drug cartels may smuggle in some semi-auto weapons but what they really want is fully auto rifles and other powerful military weaponry. I suspect that some of the semi-auto weapons that are smuggled into Mexico go into civilian hands for defense against the drug gangs. If I lived in Mexico, I would want a firearm for self defense.

In my opinion we have created a lucrative market for drug smuggling and organized drug gangs in our country. Legalization of many drugs would reduce the profit motive and work far better than our "war on drugs". The tax revenues generated could provide treatment centers for drug addiction and the money saved by law enforcement to stop smuggling of cocaine and marijuana could be used to target what remains of the drug gangs.

[apocalypsehow]

18. Again, you repeatedly affirm my point though I don't think you mean to.

Persistent cognitive dissonance can trend into more serious issues over time. Treatment, fortunately, is available. :thumbsup:

[spin]

22. I realize that I am affirming your point ...

no problem.

But perhaps I should expand my comments to say that I am not fond of the U.S. being one of the biggest arms suppliers in the world.

The subject of the original post was "Fearing Drug Cartels, Reporters in Mexico Retreat". Your post indicated that "The U.S. gun industry and their NRA lackeys are the Mexican Drug Cartel's arms dealer."

I replied and pointed out that "Most of the firearms used by the drug cartels come from South America". I also mentioned that corruption in the Mexican police, military and government supplied U.S. manufactured firearms to the drug cartels. I will also admit that many of the weapons that are smuggled in from South America came from weapons manufactured in the U.S. that ended up in South American countries military forces.

But my point is that even if the United States stopped manufacturing weapons to sell to other countries, the Mexican drug cartels would still have a number of sources for military weapons from China and Russia and other countries as well as the weapons our countries manufactured in the past.

Perhaps we should stop supplying weapons to the world. All too often they end up being used against us. But that is a different topic than the topic in the original post.

With the info I provided in my posts you should be able to start your own post on if we should continue to be the arms supplier to the world. One excellent resource for that post would be the link I provided to Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations, 2001-2008 by the Congressional Research Service at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/R40796.pdf

[apocalypsehow]

29. Thank you for your intellectual honesty. Your point is well-taken, as far as the weapons trade goes.

I will read your link - thanks for providing it.

[louis-t]

8. But purchased from

"dealers in the U.S. border states".

[spin]

16. Why not post the entire sentence from the article? ...

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

It has an entirely different meaning.

I fully support efforts to stop the illegal smuggling of firearms across our borders to Mexico and Canada. However, if we totally eliminate these activities, we will have done little to reduce the number of military weapons owned by and available to the drug cartels.

[louis-t]

31. Huh? What has a "different meaning"?

I was responding to the poster who left out that part of the sentence. Looks like maybe you responded to the wrong post. :shrug:

[louis-t]

7. This is what I have heard.

Thousands of high-powered weapons being sold to Mexico. None seem to land in the hands of regular citizens. Hmmm, wonder who has them?

[Richard Steele]

15. That's an utterly ridiculous opinion which is contrary to almost all known facts.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and thus appear FOOLISH.

[apocalypsehow]

17. Thank you for the insults and other assorted juvenalia, and do try again when you're ready to play a

grownup on the big, bad internets.

[Richard Steele]

19. When you have FACTS on your side, please post them.

Please post some FACTS to support the claims you made
in that post I responded to...

Oh, wait...you can't, because you don't have any.

When I call your bluff,
all you can do is pretend to be too offended to discuss it,
while throwing backhanded slurs over your shoulder as you run away
from your own statements.

You made those statements: I'm asking you to stand up
and EXPLAIN to everyone here what you meant by them.

Like a GROWNUP.

[apocalypsehow]

28. That you seem either unable or unwilling to read the plain facts on the screen in front of you is a

problem uniquely your own. I'd recommend a tutor, or, if you lack the financial resources, a literacy agency. They offer the latter free of charge in a city near you, I'm positive. :thumbsup:

[Richard Steele]

35. Another post full of snark, and not a FACT to be found in it. What a surprise.

Welcome to "ignore", you sad little excuse for a person. :hi:

[apocalypsehow]

36. Oh pleeeze Lord NOOOO! Not IGNORE!!!!11 ... What evah will I do???

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. Could you provide a link to the NRA's involvement in the issue?

[Fumesucker]

9. It never has been a "drug issue"...

It's always been a "black market" issue, a "prohibition" issue..

End the prohibition, end the black market and you end the violence that is always associated with black markets.

That is what the US can do to stop the violence, end the prohibition that is fueling it every bit as much a alcohol Prohibition fueled the St Valentine's Day Massacre in 1929 Chicago..

Violence between alcohol distributors came to a screeching halt with the end of alcohol Prohibition, it could be the same with other drugs but our government is addicted to the power and money that prohibition brings to it.

[apocalypsehow]

10. This is true, of course, and the ultimate solution to this horrific problem is ending prohibition.

[Fumesucker]

11. Practically everyone now has grown up with the drug war..

We simply cannot imagine our nation without it, it seems right and natural.

It will never end now, it is too deeply ingrained in both the psyche of America and in the flow of power in our government.

Edited to add: Most of us would rather see our children slaughtered in a senseless, futile and useless quest for perfection that is impossible to reach than admit that we are wrong.

[spin]

13. Exactly! (n/t)

[Stinky The Clown]

14. I have an idea. Let's invade Mexico.

[spin]

24. Be careful what you wish for ...

we might have to in 5 or10 years if we don't stop our foolish "war on drugs".

[EFerrari]

27. It's too late, hermanito. We stole the march.

lol

[Stinky The Clown]

30. Ah, hermana, you know I would never want to do that, e!

:hi:

[EFerrari]

32. We'd pretty much be invading ourselves -- which was probably the next item

on Rumsfeld's to do list. :)

[krispos42]

20. The carnage in Mexico is being used as an excuse to push for more gun-controls laws here.

Like renewing the poorly-named Assault Weapons Ban.


How about we use this as an excuse to liberalize our drug laws instead??? Fight the problem by making us more free, not less.

[Odin2005]

21. That makes too much sense for the Authoritarians on both sides.

[krispos42]

23. Truth n/t

[spin]

25. So true. (n/t)

[EFerrari]

33. And to shore up eroding support for the "drug war"

which is basically counter insurgency in Latin America.

Yeppers.

[EFerrari]

26. Yeah, there's something we can do. We can get DEA and CIA out of the drug business.

Sheesh.

[EFerrari]

34. Gotta love the NYTs hypocrisy. This was my submitted comment.

While the NYTs has battered Venezuela about the head and ears, journalists in Mexico (and lately in Honduras) have been kidnapped, tortured and killed.

And, btw, what if someone stole Ohio and nobody reported it? Would that also be a "news blackout"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. SHHH we have had shootings THIS SIDE of the border

that nobody has bothered reporting.

So NYT... does not print all the news that's fit to print. In fact, they chose regularly what to print.

And sadly this is not the bad actors threatening the press... but the press, or rather their owners making a very conscious decision not to.

So did a shoot out in the US happen if the American Press did not report it? Or for that matter did Republican Primaries were canceled if the US Press did not report it? (AP wire on the Guardian)

So the NYT can kiss my ass on this.