If Kucinich really wants to make a point, he should give up his access to health insurance

[mzmolly]

until we have a public option. :shrug: After all, that's what he's asking other Americans to do.

[Greyhound]

1. No, he's not but I can see how you'd think so with all the lies being floated

this week.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

25. Back up your claim

that I've lied about Mr. Kucinich.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

157. I'm sure that Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh would agree with you

n/t

[mzmolly]

160. Must be why Dennis is a darling of Faux news. Faux and "Kooch" are against the same reform bill.

Interesting logic though.

http://www.newshounds.us/2010/01/23/democrat_dennis_kucinich_followed_bill_oreillys_playbook_forgot_to_bring_his_own.php

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

186. GOOD FOR HIM. HE PRESENTS THE ISSUES VALIENTLY

I have no sympathy for his opponents.

[mzmolly]

227. We'll agree

to disagree on that one. :hi:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

24. Yes he is. He's saying "no" to reform

without a public option.

[Greyhound]

38. With no 'public option', this is not reform at all.

Even the so-called prohibitions against rescission, pre-existing conditions, and cap$, will be challenged and almost certainly struck down, without ever being implemented. The end result will be a "reform" like all those we've been pummeled by for decades, a mandate to pay the parasites for nothing, forever.

If you need refreshing on the definition of reform in Doublespeak, see 'welfare reform', 'banking reform', 'bankruptcy reform', 'social security reform', 'education reform', etc.

[Statistical]

53. Then he should have no problem giving up his "ebil" no public insurance. Right?

HCR doesn't pass 30 million people don't get evil for-profit insurance.

So he is asking those people to accept not having insurance. He should join them. Voluntarily give up his insurance too.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

73. My thoughts as well.

:hi:

[sabrina 1]

173. You left out something! He's asking Congress, as President

Obama himself agreed in the campaign, not to force the poor to pay for shoddy premiums they cannot afford and will not be able to use because of the high deductibles and co-pays.

I notice when anti Public Option people present their case, the claim that this bill 'will cover 30 million Americans who don't have coverage now'.

They leave out who is going to be forced to pay for that cheap, inadequate coverage, and who will benefit from it. They attempt to give the impression that those poor people will be by this bill, when it does nothing of the kind.

Insurance Coverage does not = Health care!

Added to that, if they decide as most people in a democracy can do, not to spend money for something they cannot afford and cannot use, but to spend it on food for their children or other necessary expenditures, the IRS will be after them, they will pay huge fines, or go to jail, and those fines too will go into the pockets of the corrupt, private insurance industries.

Anyone who supports such a system doesn't care about this country, the only care about 'my team must win' ~

We were told lies about Tarp also. That the money would go to buy up toxic assets, and if we didn't support it the sky would fall.

Well, one day after people were scared into supporting it, the money was NOT spent on buying up toxic assets, it was funnelled into the pockets of Henry Paulson's friends at Goldman Sachs and we are prevented from finding out exactly who got what.

Fool me once, etc. I oppose the passage of this bill, we are being lied to about it not being possible to get the votes for a PO. I don't like being lied to by my own party anymore than I like it when Republicans do it.

[Desertrose]

262. +1000

You nailed it.

[mzmolly]

105. But congress doesn't enjoy a public option. If it's good enough for congress

it's good enough for me. ;)

[Donnachaidh]

47. that's because this insurance company bail out is NOT REFORM.

Spin it all you want -- it's not health CARE nor is it REFORM, even in the smallest sense.

[mzmolly]

75. Then he should have no problem not contributing to the insurance companies

in question by giving up his coverage.

[defendandprotect]

87. Kucinich is saying "NO" to breadcrumbs and DEFORM of health care . . .

Do you see universal health care in any country based on insurance and Big Pharma?

Of course not!

Fortunately, Kucinich isn't swayed by the nonsense of the bread-crumb-givers!!

[mzmolly]

101. Yet he's eating breadcrumbs to sustain his own life

while he claims they're poison to the starving people he represents.

[defendandprotect]

116. Congressional benefits are not "bread crumbs" -- this legislation is . . .

ask ALL of Congress to give up their health care until ALL Americans have

universal health care --

Ask ALL of Congress to come under the new plan --

Putting insurance companies and big pharma into health care makes no sense

anywhere in the world -- except here in America where most of our Congress/President

are pre-bribed and pre-owned by big corporations.

STOP the private deals with "for profit" health care providers.

[Green_Lantern]

119. I think he should vote his conscience...

And I firmly agree this bill will end up forcing people to buy insurance whose premiums will keep increasing. The only problem I have is that if this doesn't pass the whole reform debate will probably die and then what happens?

With this bill we still have a chance of the House tacking a government option onto it.

[defendandprotect]

123. Where is "fear-based" negotiating going to get you except to more compromise?

The public option was the COMPROMISE position vs single payer!!

If there is no public option this bill is worthless --

AND, it doesn't even kick in for 3 years during which time the GOP can destroy it --

PLUS we begin paying for it immediately!

We need MEDICARE FOR ALL -- not breadcrumbs from breadcrumb-givers!!

Corporations are running our health care now -- they've been running the discussions

thru Baucus who is pre-bribed and pre-owned -- and they'll be running our futures.

Is that really what you want?

[mzmolly]

127. Do you have access to a "public option"? Does Kucinich? Do I?

NO. So why has this become the ONLY acceptable option for those without health care?

[defendandprotect]

141. Because single payer was "taken off the table" and Public Option became the compromise!!!

Will GOP take over in 2012?

And what will they do with this legislation which doesn't kick in for 3 years ??

Though we begin paying for it immediately --

There are NO OPTIONS in this legislation -- that's the point!!!

The public wants single payer -- along the lines of MEDICARE FOR ALL . . .

And so do Catholics -- including CONTRACEPTION and ABORTION!!!

Howard Dean is making clear this legislation is worthless . . .

More "lesser of evils" ???

If Repugs had tried to move this plan we'd be boo-ing at them!!

[mzmolly]

143. Again I ask ... Do you have access to a "public option"? Does Kucinich? Do I?

If insurance is so 'evil' Dennis needs to renounce the industry and prove it's better to be without it.

[defendandprotect]

194. No . . . Obama and Rahm have to renounce corporatism . . .

and, btw, so does the rest of the Congress --

DLC is poisionous in Democratic Party!!

[mzmolly]

228. Just after Dennis renounces his own corporate health care.

:hi:

[Green_Lantern]

128. I didn't say negotiate and compromise...

I'm actually talking about using the reconciliation process to get the public option back into the bill.

Have you read the latest on reconciliation?

[defendandprotect]

144. Have you read what Pelosi said about Public Option yesterday????

I'm aware of what reconciliation can do --

I'm also aware that Obama could call for MEDICARE FOR ALL --

but when you elope with the right wing-corporate DLC into the White House,

we see what happens . . . i.e., right wing policies take over!!

We need to take a hint from the right win and begin to demonize any candidate

or elected official taking money from corporations!!


And that's what this is -- more give-aways to the corporations!!!



Rep. Alan Grayson/Sen. Bernie Sanders 2012!!

[Green_Lantern]

162. Obama can't just call for Medicare for all...

It'd have to pass the Senate first. What are you talking about?

[defendandprotect]

195. Obama can give leadership to MEDICARE FOR ALL --

a president doesn't have to wait for Congress to propose legislation !!!

If Obama did just that the nation would be behind him -- and he'd secure Democratic

Party for next 40 years -- and be relected --

Unfortunately, he seems to have signed up to move GOP issues --

No health care should be approved without a public option at the very least --

PO was the "compromise" position vs single payer --

MEDICARE FOR ALL -- NOW! Not three years from now!!


And not another three years with 45,000 dying every year --


Yes . . . Obama can "call for" MEDICARE FOR ALL --!!

[Green_Lantern]

199. unlike you I'm not one to just yell slogans....

I don't think Obama just proposing it means it'll get support. But it is sure easy to just say.

[defendandprotect]

145. ... and actually I mentioned "compromise" because that's where "fear-based" thinking will get you!!

[mzmolly]

126. Congressional benefits are what Dennis doesn't want for others.

HE does not have a "public option". He enjoys coverage through an employer at our expense.

[defendandprotect]

147. Let's ask Kucinich if everyone should have what he has -- gee... what might he say???

Hard to guess, right?

You have no argument there --

Try attacking the Repugs who want no health care reform --

try attacking the Blue Dogs -- and the Dino's

Try attacking Obama and Rahm -- and let's get them to give up their health care

until America truly gets a system of universal health care --

MEDICARE FOR ALL --

[mzmolly]

153. He'd say NO. That's what he's voting against. He will vote NO on allowing US to buy into the same

non-proft plan he enjoys.

The estimated 30 million Americans purchasing coverage through new insurance exchanges would have the option of signing up for national plans overseen by the same office that manages health coverage for federal employees and members of Congress. Those plans would be privately owned, but operated on a nonprofit basis, as many Blue Cross Blue Shield plans are now.

The option amounts to a consolation prize for liberals, who failed to include a government-run alternative.

Additionally, insurance companies would be barred immediately from denying coverage to children because of a Prue-existing health condition. The prohibition on denial of coverage for adults would not take effect in the Senate bill until 2014, a disappointment for consumer advocates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7272574&mesg_id=7272574

[Raineyb]

198. That's NOT what he's voting against.

This bill will NOT give us what the Senators have. It's a tiered service where the lowest and most "affordable" tier will have deductibles and co-pays that will make it unusable.

[mzmolly]

229. Part of the plan includes a buy in to the non profit

Senate/Congress health care option. It's been in the press, and I've noted it in this thread.

[defendandprotect]

201. No . . . Kucinich is voiting against an Insurance/Pharma bill . . . not MEDICARE FOR ALL ...

And for the first time ever we'd be FORCING Americans to buy something from a corporation!!

You seem to be overlooking the fact that there are more than 30 million without health care --

And those who don't have it are in that situation because they can't afford it!!

They'd have the "option" of singing up for national plans which they can't afford?

Is this more conservative compassion -- or a new style corporate compassion?


Obama and Rahm are following a corporate model of health care which will benefit corporations

by hundreds of billions of dollars. Not to mention private deals -- disgraceful!!

[mzmolly]

230. It's not the first time. Do you have car insurance?

:hi: Again I say, Dennis should give up his "disgraceful" health insurance policy under the circumstances.

[pnwmom]

28. Yes, he is. If he votes against health insurance reform, then he's voting against

the needs of the millions of Americans who have been denied coverage due to preexisting conditions or who could be dropped from coverage.

If they don't need coverage then he doesn't either.

[Greyhound]

57. Want to place a bet on whether that gets implemented at all before the first injunction?

Please see previous thread for examples of "reform" over the last 30+ years.

You all keep repeating the mantra as if all the deficiencies don't matter. If you cannot afford to use it, health insurance is just another tax on those that cannot afford what we already take.

[pnwmom]

64. If a court were to throw those provisions out, that would flip some of those

NO votes on a public option to YES.

Those provisions had more support than any others.

[Greyhound]

171. A. There's already a significant majority in favor of real reform, the refusal to let it into the

forum is the problem on that front. If you're talking about so-called representatives flipping their votes, once the voting is done it's over (see NAFTA, GATT, WTO, IMF, China, welfare "reform", immigration "reform", bankruptcy "reform", credit "reform", etc...

[defendandprotect]

204. Right . . . and we can't get Obama to even amend trade agreeements!!!

Imagine where we'd be with trying to get insurance companies and Big Pharma out

of any HC legislation which might pass --

Obama and Rahm need to give up corporatism because we're all sick of it!!!



Grayson in 2012?

[defendandprotect]

205. In fact, we can't even get Obama/Rahm to re-regulate capitalism!!!

Glass-Steagall!!!

Derivatives . . . new bailouts?

[mzmolly]

77. I can't afford to pay my premiums either.

Who feels that they have disposable income to spend on health care? I certainly don't. But, not having coverage is far less affordable in the long run, than having access Greyhound.

[defendandprotect]

206. Yeah . . . well, I'm sure that's a handly lesson for the poor who can't afford any HC...???!!!!

:eyes:

[mzmolly]

232. Many of whom would be covered under the expansion of medicaid in the NEW plan Dennis doesn't

support.

[defendandprotect]

268. Universal health care should have no CLASS status attached. . .EVERYONE should get care . . .

without regard to income --

Again -- MEDICARE FOR ALL --

leave CLASSISM to the Repugs --

[mzmolly]

76. Well said.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

117. Fight for a public option -- MEDICARE FOR ALL --

why fight for a downward spiral of privatized health care?

Which, btw, doesn't even begin for 3 or more years -- though we begin paying

for it immediately!!!

Ah, yes -- they're reinventing the wheel!

If they don't know what they're doing, ask Canada, ask France -- ask any other

nation that has universal coverage for citizens. Stop the pretense that they

don't know that MEDICARE FOR ALL is the solution!!

[mzmolly]

129. HEALTH CARE FOR ALL.

If Medicare is the only solution, then Dennis should give up his own health care plan until we ALL have Medicare.

[defendandprotect]

150. Obama and Rahm should give up their health care until we all have MEDICARE FOR ALL --

or better --

[mzmolly]

154. No they shouldn't. They're not calling for Medicare for all. Kucinich

is, while he's enjoying access to his non-profit, tax payer subsidized health care plan.

[defendandprotect]

207. The president and ALL of Congress should suspend their own benefits . . .

until we have universal health care coverage for every American in a single

payer system -- MEDICARE FOR ALL --

Obama/Rahma are on the "for profit"/corporate side of this -- and making PRIVATE

deals with insurance and Big Pharma -- What's that all about? Open government??

:shrug: :shrug:

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

237. We're about to offer universal coverage.

Dennis plans to vote no.

[Raineyb]

200. This bill isn't even health care for all.

Your argument is disingenuous bullshit.

[defendandprotect]

208. Right . . . it leave more than 15 MILLION uncovered . .

forces people to buy something from "for profit" corporations . . .

and doesn't cover anyone for three years . . . while 45,000 Americans will die

every year til then!!!

PLUS, if this stinky bill goes thru, Obama will probably not be president in 2012 --

If the GOP gets in, they will shred whatever has been done!!

Good planning Democrats!!!

If Obama goes with MEDICARE FOR ALL, he'll the Dems up for the next 40 years --

and get relected!!!

But, as they say, you can't wake up a man pretending to be asleep!!

As though Obama doesn't know what the nation wants!!! MEDICARE FOR ALL --

:)

[mzmolly]

235. Yes, 50 million without access, is far superior to 15 million who can get coverage

when they really need it. :sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

270. That's three years from now -- 105,000 more dead -- and insurance companies still in control!!!

and, with the option of the GOP knocking this out anyway --

Grayson in 2012 !!!

Kick out the corporatists!!

[mzmolly]

233. It's health care access for those who chose it. Those who are not covered

are those who choose to opt out.

[defendandprotect]

269. Let's have Obama and Rahm give up their health care til we get single payer/public option -- !!!

[defendandprotect]

148. Only if "up" is "down" . . . this legislation only benefits insurance/Big Pharma . . .

[mzmolly]

155. And 50,000 people who will live each year because they have access

to health care coverage.

[defendandprotect]

209. Why not save the 45,000 by starting HC immediately . . . ?????

How do you miss that reality --

especially when we're to begin paying for it immediately????

[mzmolly]

234. I'm all for it. Can you share how this will be accomplished?

What votes have you or Dennis counted in the Senate/House for such a plan?

[Chisox08]

223. Are you serious?

People will be forced to buy Health Insurance from companies that have been sticking it to us for years. I don't see anything stopping them from refusing to pay for treatments. Those same Insurance companies are jacking up their rates and co-pays before this bill gets passed. The abuses will still continue, the profiting off of peoples illness will continue and nothing will change except for us being forced to buy their product.
If this was a Republican bill DU would explode with outrage.

[mzmolly]

236. Yes, I'm serious. Are you serious that it's better to leave 50 million people

without access to health care than it is to provide coverage? If corporate health care coverage is good enough for Dennis, it's good enough for me!

Today's republican party would not attempt to accomplish mass health care reform. The entire republican congress has filibustered the bill, remember?

[Chisox08]

253. Health Care and Health Insurance is two differnt things.

Just because I have Health Insurance doesn't mean that I have Health Care. The insurance companies still have the ability to deny care. The Insurance companies are the death panels. They can choose to deny to pay for care retroactively and leave you stuck thousands of dollars in debt.
All I'm asking is why are we feeding millions of Americans to these predators? This bill forces people into the loving arms of the same companies that has denied them coverage before or priced them out. You can't solve homelessness by mandating that everybody buys a house.

[mzmolly]

254. I'm out Chisox08.

Thanks for your response in this thread. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

89. Should be asking for ALL of Congress to give up their health care --

then we might be getting some where!!

And make sure that they come under any new universal health care plan!!!

[tabasco]

2. The little twerp just loves to stoke his own ego.

He stopped giving a shit about the people a while back.

[ixion]

6. riiiight... because the BlueDog DLC'ers care so much

:eyes:

Kucinich is one of the only politicians that has consistently spoken the truth. How that translates into "not giving a shit about people" is beyond me.

[cali]

20. give me bernie any day of the week. for that matter I much prefer my

own rep Peter Welch to Kucinich. He's OK, but he ain't all that.

[defendandprotect]

91. Notice how the attack is strictly on Kucinich... No call for ALL of Congress to give up health care!

In fact, we should make sure that whatever the universal health care that

Congress is also put on that new plan!!

[mzmolly]

97. It's not an attack unless you consider leaving 30 million without health care an attack.

Dennis has made very vocal appearances lately saying that he'll refuse any bill without a public option. He's been applauded here for doing so which is why I focused on him.

My suggestion is that Dennis Kucinich,*being the heroic, vocal, principled man he is* should take a stand by saying "no" to his own corporate health insurance.

[girl gone mad]

112. No, it's definitely an attack..

and this bill will mean both my brother and my uncle could lose their access to health care, so in my opinion every single congress person who votes for it and the President should be forced to give up the doctors they currently see and trust and buy into an unfriendly and unaffordable system against their will, too.

[mzmolly]

130. I ask AGAIN, how your family will lose health care under this bill.

You fail to explain your logic time and time again.

[defendandprotect]

210. You're attempting to make this personal .. . if you can't attack Kucinich . . .

then you want to attack me?

Try attacking the corporatists in the White House -- Obama/Rahma --

[mzmolly]

239. Are you girl gone mad too?

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

266. misplaced --

[girl gone mad]

231. Link to where you've asked me that before? I most certainly would have explained it to you..

Had I seen your question.

My brother has a negotiated contract with a Doctor through his workplace, no insurance. Concierge service, house calls, negotiated outpatient treatment and hospitalization at a fraction of what it would otherwise cost. Now he'll be forced to either buy insurance or pay a mandate, neither of which he can easily afford, and the contract will have to be terminated since the employers won't be able to afford it any longer once the reform kicks in.

My uncle receives treatment at a clinic in South America, where he has been going for years. He rides his 30 year old motorcycle, by himself, to get to this place and the treatment is excellent and affordable. It is the only relief he has been able to get for his illness. Now he will be forced to purchase very expensive (due to his age and condition) insurance or pay the stupid mandates. Either option will leave him without enough money to continue going to South America.

There. I have just explained the situation, for the 20th time on DU. Now I'd like to see you call for those who vote for this garbage to be forced to give up their doctors and join a junk insurance program with no guarantee of access to equivalent care to that which they currently receive. Will you do that, or will you simply ignore this, proving for all what a complete and utter hypocrite you are?

[mzmolly]

238. We can't afford to pay premiums

either. But we pay them and are grateful to have coverage.

Your uncle and brother are certainly unusual in their circumstances. So much so, I'm not sure I buy the story. Do you know either of their income levels and if they'll be able to qualify for free medicaid in the expansion? Have you bothered to look into the subsidies to see if they qualify for a large percentage? If they REALLY can't afford coverage, chances are they'll be better off under the new plan.

[girl gone mad]

256. My uncle and brother are not in unusual circumstances.

Concierge doctors and medical tourism have both seen rapid adoption in recent years. I don't give a fuck if you "buy the story" or not.

Neither will qualify for subsidies, according to the calculator. Both will be screwed by this bill, along with millions of other Americans. I don't know anyone who believes they will be better off under the new plan, even those who will receive subsidies.

[mzmolly]

258. I've moved on to other conversations.

Cheers. :hi:

Here's the outline of the new bill if you're interested.

http://dpc.senate.gov/healthreformbill/healthbill11.pdf

[defendandprotect]

267. If I'm not mistaken, a great number of Medicare patients are

going outside the country for medical care?

I agree with you -- it will take three years before the public understands that

this is simply guaranteed privatization of "people's" government --

with insurance and Big Pharma once again making off with the $$$ --

Thanks to Obama/Rahma -- and DLC --

[defendandprotect]

114. Of course it is: Kucinich is ONE vote... what about the Blue Dogs/DINO's/Stupak . . .???

What about the Repugs -- ??

Ever ask Lieberman to give up his benefits?

Meanwhile, let's deprive the larger number of "Democrats" who aren't doing the

right thing from their benefits -- not someone who is doing the right thing.

This health care deform makes about as much sense as inviting Blackwater in to

fight our wars!

Move insurance companies and big pharma out of health care --

and Obama should STOP making private deals with them!!

[mzmolly]

131. Do you suggest that DINO's and Stupak haven't been critiqued here?

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

212. Those who have pandered to DINO's/Stupak/RCC/corporations . . .

deserve the criticism . . . and that would be the Obama administration!!!

Obama/Rahma/DLC . . . Pelosi . . .

You know, the same people who keep Bush's wars going -- !!!

[mzmolly]

240. Dennis is voting with Republicans on health care,

you tell me who the real DINO is. ;)

[defendandprotect]

264. Repugs are voting AGAINST ALL health care reform . . . Kucinich is voting for PO . .. single payer..

Quite a difference --

Meanwhile, Rahm is bringing in the Blue Dogs and Dino's . . .

and setting us up with DLC/GOP corporate agenda --

This bill is corporate all the way --

notice any ads by insurance companies complaining about it --

or Big Pharma complaining?!!!!

[defendandprotect]

115. This bill is an attack on all citizens -- MEDICARE FOR ALL ... NOW!!

STOP worshipping the breadcrumb-givers and move on to real universal

health care --

If Obama doesn't know how to do it I'm sure one of the 40 other nations who have

health care can help him!!!

Meanwhile, Women in the United States are more likely to die while pregnant or

in childbirth than in 40 other countries where comprehensive health care is provided

for all citizens.

[Green_Lantern]

121. I'm not sure we'd have enough votes in the Senate...

Obama can't just pass it without 60 Senators.

[defendandprotect]

124. The majority is 51 . . . let the GOP filibuster . . .

We certainly can find 51 votes!!!

And, btw, contrary to the lies and misrepresentations of the US Catholic Cardinals

Catholics want government run health care --

and they also want reproductive health care -- including post-natal and pre-natal care --

and CONTRACEPTION and ABORTION to be covered!!!

Catholics are very liberal in what they want from health care --

and when Catholic Latinos/Latinas are added in, they are even more liberal!!

[Green_Lantern]

132. it wouldn't get out of the Senate if it was filibustered...

It couldn't go to reconciliation.

[defendandprotect]

138. Make the GOP filibuster . . . and let's see the reaction of the public . . .

especially if the words MEDICARE FOR ALL should pass any Democrat's lips!!

[Green_Lantern]

140. that's a dumb way to govern...

To write and markup bills you know will be filibustered in committee.

[defendandprotect]

190. Amazing that Democrats have so much trouble passing legislation when they're the majority...

while, W Bush had absolutely no trouble ramming everything through despite the

fact that he lost the popular vote and was put in the White House by the fascist gang of 5 --

Further, the Democrats are being betrayed by corporate Democrats like Baucus who are basically

performing for the insurance "for profit" health care providers. They're betrayed by DLC and

Blue Dogs. They've been chasing Lieberman and Stupak.

Ever think maybe the Democratic leadership is doing something wrong?


Grayson in 2012 -- let's see if we can get something done with different leadership.

[Green_Lantern]

196. well like it or not Lieberman and Baucus and other DLCers

Are in the Senate.

Stupak isn't even in the Senate so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I'm not sure you know how the Senate works.

As far as Bush he got things through by using reconciliation which is what's going on now.

In 2012 it's laughable to think Obama won't be the nominee for President.

You need a dose of reality.

[defendandprotect]

213. That's why we're all suggesting that we target them next time out . . .DLC poison!!

Stupak has now been sidelined --

but maybe you missed the Pelosi/US Catholic Bishops/Call from Rome deal?


I've watched the Democrats work the Senate -- been watching for more than 20 years . . .

and I watched as George Mithcell, with a Democratic majority, turned the Senate over

to Bob Dole!! Maybe you need to watch a bit more closely?

[Green_Lantern]

218. Stupak never had a leg to stand on because there is no...

House filibuster.

[defendandprotect]

263. The Catholic Bishops have enough standing to be collecting OODLES of our tax dollars -- !!!

And there's an investigation pending in whether they have used our taxpayer money

to pay off their pedophile lawsuits!!!

I'd say the overall reputation of the Vatican/RCC should preclude our giving them

a dime, even for their "faith based" organizations . . . which in large part gives

them access to familes/children!!

[Green_Lantern]

222. Dems didn't have a supermajority when Mitchell was in charge...

So even then the minority could get away with the filibuster. A majority isn't enough.

[defendandprotect]

265. Sorry, but they had a DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY ... and Mitchell handed the Senate over to Dole ...

A majority is still enough -- if you don't game play --

Keep in mind our last go-around with Repug minority -- if you want to understand

how it's done!!!

Corporatism is undermining both parties -- they wholly own the GOP which was already

the business party. They mainly own the Democratic Party at this point.

As they say --

"The Republicans are the EXPRESS train to Auschwitz --

the Democrats are the LOCAL train to Auschwitz -- "

Though the Democratic ride has speeded up considerably lately!!

[Green_Lantern]

271. end of discussion..

Once the Nazi comparisons and making light of Auschwitz enter the conversation I no longer take you serious.

[defendandprotect]

272. No one makes "light" of Auschwitz . . . if one is wise, one understands the

the possibilities of human insanities and inhumanity towards fellow humans!

And, the right wings tendency to repeat its patterns of violence and destruction.



ALSO note that what I related was in QUOTES . . . not my sole thought!

Further, what we are suffering here in America is corporatism -- which is FASCISM.

[Green_Lantern]

273. we aren't fascist...

As a part of fascism corporatism doesn't mean corporation as in an incorporated business.

Been to any tea parties?

[defendandprotect]

274. Sorry, but corporatism is fascism . . .

[Green_Lantern]

275. no it's not....

The corporatism of fascism isn't privately run businesses, it has to do with the way the state is organized.

[defendandprotect]

276. We have corporate control over STATE . . . how have you missed that--????

[Green_Lantern]

277. we are still not fascist....

Tea baggers agree with you though.

[defendandprotect]

278. No -- T-baggers think this is socialism . . . quite a difference there!

Corporate control over state/government is fascism --

unless you think you voted for a corporate government?

Last I heard, it was supposed to be a government of, by and for the people?

Or, maybe you agree with the Supremes latest decision which will expand the ability

of corporations to wholly own government?




I will acknowledge that the public is confused about "socialism" --
In fact, J. Edgar Hoover/FBI, would always make a point when referring to the
USSR as "totalitarian socialism" because socialism is actually liberal/progressive
and respected throughout the world!

Yes, T-baggers are confused.

But, not only did the USSR have a fascist system kept in place by violent power --
so did the Germans and Italians . . . it was corportate control of government/fascism.
You should read something about how our capitalists here cleared the pathways for
Germany to rearm. And the support of capitalism in America for the Nazi regime.

Corporatism is fascism --
read something about that --

[Green_Lantern]

279. nah I've seen tea baggers call the US fascist too..

Fascism isn't defined by how businesses operate.

Corporatism is a tenet of fascism but corporatism doesn't mean private business lobbying govt. it. Corporatism means every aspect of a nation including the individual is seen as an organ of the state.

In the US corporations are operated for the benefit of themselves not the state.

[mzmolly]

125. Again, the breadcrumbs are what I and Dennis Kucinich enjoy and they save nearly 50,000

lives annually.

[defendandprotect]

139. This legislation will save NO ONE for three years . . . and then put all Americans

at the mercy of corporate power* -- insurance companies and big pharma whom, btw,

Obama has made PRIVATE deals with --

Let's stop moving toward the "lesser of evils" and fight for something that will

help all American NOW -- MEDICARE FOR ALL!!



Grayson in 2012!!




* if the Repugs don't immediately overturn it or turn it into more of a private give-away --

They get the $$$, Americans get the crumbs!

[mzmolly]

149. Talking points abound, but logic on the other hand...

Again, Dennis is at the mercy of 'corporate power' for his health care, and it's working just fine for him. It's working for me and most Americans. That doesn't mean we don't need better oversight, which the HC plan includes.

Grayson is a yes vote, with or without a public option. He's a brilliant legislator and a true progressive who will not vote NO to advance his own political career, thankfully.

[defendandprotect]

191. We can do MEDICARE FOR ALL for what we are already spending . . . *

WE are paying for the HC of everyone in Congress -- and for Obama/Rahm and the rest of

the corporatists flooding the White House/administration --

Most Americans want a government run health care program -- single payer similar to MEDICARE.

Catholics also want that -- including CONTRACEPTION and ABORTION coverage!


And you're saying that "insurance companies" are working just fine for most Americans???

Mindboggling!! Do you live in the White House with Obama?


We'll see what Grayson does -- and if Obama does what he should do, he'll secure the Democratic

party for the next 40 years. MEDICARE FOR ALL. If he doesn't, maybe Grayson will be the

next president?



* See comments by Sen. Bernie Sanders

[mzmolly]

242. Again you (or Kucinich) should share where the votes are for such a program.

:hi:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

159. your attack on Kucinich just makes me sick -I'm ashamed to see your post at DU

n/t

[mzmolly]

161. Attack? HE is attacking the system he enjoys and I merely suggested

he go without his "corporate run" insurance plan until he can pass a bill that's acceptable to him. Why is that an attack?

[defendandprotect]

192. No -- you're attacking . . . and why? Because you don't want to admit that this is corporatism . .

a corporatist bill to send 40 million new FORCED customers to insurance companies!!!

While Obama/Rhama continue to permit Big Pharma to rip off the public with drug prices

4 - 6 - 8 X higher than in any other country!! Disgraceful --


Those who are "enjoying" their HC benefits without any REAL concern for the public are

Obama/Rahm and the rest of the DLC corporatists --!!


I didn't see Kucinich making any PRIVATE deals with insurance companies or Big Pharma!!

At long last, have you no sense of . . . etc, etc, etc. . . .

I think you know the rest -- !!

[mzmolly]

244. If I'm attacking so is Dennis Kucinich. I'm suggesting he do what he's asking

Americans to do.

[defendandprotect]

151. Agree -- 1000% --

Only the right wing will see it as "not giving a shit about people" --

Notice, the OP doesn't ask Obama and Rahm to give up their health care benefits!!

Yet -- who more than Obama/Rahm/DLC/Pelosi have done more to distort and destroy real reform?

Putting corporations into this legislation is criminal!!

[EFerrari]

12. Damn that little twep that won't buckle to the corruption all around him.

DENNIS!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[ShamelessHussy]

55. lol

[flvegan]

62. It takes a *really* small man to attack on physical stature.

Means you've got shit else.

[Zoeisright]

111. +100000

Exactly.

[timtom]

108. Sorry, pal.

Of ALL the negative posts on DK, THIS was undoubtedly the most lacking in class.

[AllentownJake]

3. DENNIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously guys, you just lost a yes vote for the original house bill from Illinois of all place, think you'd be talking about that instead of the vote you will never get.

[ProSense]

5. .

HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AllentownJake]

9. The guy you should be talking about right now

-1 votes on the bill

[Kalun D]

82. Spineless Corp-a-dem

Spineless corporate sellout

[RBInMaine]

4. Kucinich is outside reality. It's plain on issue, after issue, after issue. ..

[begin_within]

10. Or is it actually that the rest of Congress is outside reality?

And Kucinich is the only one in touch with the reality of the American people?

[Cleita]

13. Exactly.

:thumbsup: He doesn't kowtow to the DLC DINOS who only care about business not the people themselves

[G_j]

18. [phone]

[cali]

21. no, but that's a classic definition for insanity.

Really? You think that Dennis is the ONLY person in Congress in touch with the American people? Really?

[Kalun D]

81. You underestimate

the power of the money that has taken control of DC on both sides of the isle.

Kucinich is one of the few that supports his voting constituency over the corporate paymasters, there are a few others, just not in the news right now.

[Forkboy]

86. I don't think he's the only one...but how many do YOU think there are?

Name the congress people you feel are truly "in touch" with the American people. Really.

[mzmolly]

31. I want him to be in touch with those who don't have health insurance.

Then, he'll speak for the very Americans he's claiming to represent in this battle.

[defendandprotect]

193. Corporate-Congress . . . compliments of Insurance and Big Pharma -- !!

When are we going to start makin clear that no matter what the fascist gang of

5 say, campaign finance contributions are BRIBERY . . . and should be demonized.

Let's take a hint from the right wing -- and demonize something ourselves, for a change!!

:evilgrin:

[Warren Stupidity]

35. What he is outside of is the crowd.

The crowd votes the corporatist war party line. Kucinich doesn't. He and a handful of actual leftwing progressive social democrats vote as leftwing progressive social democrats instead of corporatist asshats.

[cali]

43. Grayson, Bernie, Sherrod and quite a few others who are indeed progressives

support this legislation. ooh, don't tell me, they're really corporatists.

[anonymous171]

7. I thought the public option was off the table?

[EFerrari]

8. No, because when you are fighting a war you don't shed your assets to win.

[mzmolly]

29. But he claims reform is not an asset.

That's why I think he'd be more credible if he said, "you know what Health insurance is so bad that I refuse to contribute to the "give away" any longer!" ;)

Peace E, I'm out for a while. :hi:

[EFerrari]

51. Dennis has not claimed reform is not an asset.

[mzmolly]

67. In so many words,

he has.

[defendandprotect]

152. Dennis is for universal health care, not a sham!! Ask Obama/Rahm to give up their HC!!!

while we're waiting for this latest corporate give-away!!

[mzmolly]

156. Rahm and Obama are willing to offer Americans the same coverage

they enjoy. I have no desire to ask them to give up anything.

[harkadog]

164. This so-called reform doesn't begin for 3 years

Ask Obama and the supporters to give up their coverage for 3 years.

[mzmolly]

165. I think that's a fair request. Though I understand that it takes time to add

30 million people to a health care system.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

188. So now you're willing to ask Obama/Rahm to give up their HC for three years? Good!!

I think there are way more than 30 million uninsured ---

In three years, at 45,000 dying every year . . . . that will be 105,000 Americans

dead before they get health care!!

Compassionate conservatism? Or is it Compassionate Corporatism? Or both?

Whatever it is, Obama and Rahm are selling it --

[mzmolly]

243. Sure, if you're willing to ask Dennis to do what I suggest in my OP.

Deal?

[defendandprotect]

189. ..... but we begin to pay for it immediately . . . !!!

While 45,000 people a year -- every year for 3 years -- will be dying without

health care!!

[defendandprotect]

185. You think Obama and Rahm are giving Americans the SAME health care they have . . . ???

:rofl:

Obama and Rahm are protecting insurance companies and Big Pharma -- making private

deals with them, as well . . .

They are doing NOTHING to provide real health care for Americans --

What nonsense!

When was the last time you visited Obama's doctor???

[mzmolly]

246. I don't think it, I know it.

It's in the bill.

[Cha]

11. Nah, dennis has his.

[apocalypsehow]

14. This is true, but he won't - it's all a phony-baloney act in his quixotic quest to be "progressier-

than-thou" and keep his mug on the cable shows. His true "constituency" is a gaggle of pundits and talk show hosts that put Dennis on stage center.

[Cleita]

15. Back in LBJ's day Dennis would be considered a mainstream Democrat.

This country's hard pull to the right makes him seem quixotic according to the DINOS who are attacking him.

[apocalypsehow]

19. Nah, back in LBJ's day Dennis would still be a grandstander, voting against Civil Rights bills

because they weren't "perfect" and up to his supposedly exacting standards. It's all about the TV time for Dennis.

[cali]

23. lol. only someone acutely unaware of the makeup of Congress circa

1964-1968 would make such a claim. that's nonsense.

[Cleita]

33. Oh bully, I was around then and the Democrats in Congress were much

more liberal than they are today and there was no DLC or money wing of the Democratic Party. Unions had large influence too so the Democrats elected were labor and working class friendly. Even the Republicans were more moderate in those days except for Nixon and his cabal. Remember that LBJ was able to get us Medicare. That's all we and Dennis want today for a public option not a gift wrapped welfare package to the business health care sector. btw Tom Hayden was my Congressman back then and politically he was where Dennis is today.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hayden

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

41. Did you read the link? Tom was at the head of pushing for the end to the

Vietnam war like Dennis wants us out of our present wars. When not doing that he was pushing for socially progressive programs and animal rights.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

63. He served in the California Assembly and I voted for him every time he ran

for office when I lived in Santa Monica for thirty five years. It's the same as being a congressman and if you are going to be so nit picky, then we will call him assemblyman. However, this has nothing to do with your allegation that he's not a liberal in the same mold as Dennis Kucinich, but I think you just want a pissing contest, so you aren't going to get one from me. CYA

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[apocalypsehow]

66. Also, you stated Hayden was in Congress during the sixties, but the facts show he didn't enter

elective office until 1982 - and then it was the California Assembly, not the U.S. Congress.

The Facts and you have quite a tussle getting on the same page, huh? ... (:eyes:)

[Cleita]

83. Forgive me for senior memory. The sixties and seventies are one blur to

me at that time. I was working very hard at two jobs so I remember things haphazardly. Tom Hayden was my Congressman for the state of California or Assemblyman as you would prefer but most of us called him our Congressman for many years when I lived in Santa Monica. It's so unimportant as to the purpose of the original post though and totally meaningless for it. You just want to fight with me and for a really stupid reason.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[apocalypsehow]

178. Tom Hayden was not your Congressman. We have established this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Go read your own link.

[apocalypsehow]

177. Serving in the California Assembly is not the same as serving in the U.S. Congress, as you stated

above. This is per your own link. It's hardly a "pissing contest" when facts are pointed out.

[apocalypsehow]

175. I did read the link - did you? Tom Hayden was never your "Congressman" because he was never in

Congress. Period.

[TreasonousBastard]

48. I was around then, too, and remember a Congress full of Yellow Dog...

segregationists, most of whom became Republicans after Johnson forced voting rights through. Those old Yellow Dogs are what make the Republicans so defiant now-- ain't never gonna see a Javits over there in my lifetime again.

It was some Democrats with the help of liberal Republicans that got Medicare passed.

[Cleita]

84. Which shows it can be done. n/t

[apocalypsehow]

174. We're gonna do this again, because pointing out facts is not a deletable offense. You state in this

reply that Tom Hayden was your "Congressman." Tom Hayden has never been in the United States Congress. This is per your own link.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. The congress that actually passed a single payer universal health care program

for everyone 65 and older? That congress?

[cali]

37. yes that congress. And I suggest reading Robert Caro's bio of Johnson

to understand how that was done.

[Greyhound]

58. Do not confuse the issue with those things.

--Cue: "Medicare wasn't perfect when they passed it either!"

in 5,.. 4,.. 3,.. 2,..

[Warren Stupidity]

71. What they passed was so far beyond the crap in this bill -

which is the point. This congress cannot even consider legislation as remotely socialist as the bill that passed in '65. That congress was not bought and paid for by the corporate cartels. That Democratic Party, flawed and racist as it was, was head and shoulders above and beyond our pathetic shell of a party.

[Auggie]

16. He made his point by cosponsoring HR 4789, the Public Option Act.

[mzmolly]

30. Not fully. He keeps saying the plan is nothing but a "give away" while he "gives" to the

same companies. He needs to renounce his own coverage until HR 4789 passes! :)

[LostInAnomie]

22. Jokes on you! DK doesn't need health insurance!

He thrives of UFO technology, pixie dust, and the fawning of his fan club.

[mzmolly]

26. LOL

Well then, it shouldn't be an issue if he gives up coverage for him and his lovely wife. :hi:

[DFLforever]

32. You mean his taxpayer funded private insurance?

Why should he do that.. he's earned it, don't you know, just like Sen Grassley and the Repukes he's siding with on HCR - and unlike the 31 million Americans who don't have the luck of being Federal employees.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. yeah the noive of him voting according to his convictions

who the heck does he think he is?

But I digress. How is his vote against a rather bad bill, a vote I disagree with by the way, as I am in the better even this piece of corrupt crap than nothing camp, a vote for denying everyone access to health insurance?

This bill certainly does not provide everyone with access, nor does the status quo deny everyone access. I understand your anger, however misplaced, at Kucinich's stand on principle, I just don't quite get the logic of your position.

Also, the Public Option is not The Holy Grail. In itself it was a pathetic scrap tossed (and then withdrawn) to the left as an insulting substitute for expanding medicare to everyone. We are now all outraged about the demise of the ersatz substitute, when it was really nothing to begin with.

[flvegan]

40. Actually, he's asking for every American to have the same health insurance he has.

Maybe all of the spineless "Dems" rallying around this should have to give up their insurance and go with the shit this bill would put forth. Let those rickety old men and women have to pay for their own and for their families.

See how fast shit changes if they did.

[ProSense]

42. Really?

Which health insurance is that?

[Cleita]

45. Dennis will be eligible for Medicare in October of 2011 when he turns 65.

I know he wants everyone to have a chance to buy into Medicare if they are under 65. He has said it over and over again.

[mzmolly]

68. But he's been well served for the past several years without

having access to medicare.

[Forkboy]

93. Should people who have things others don't just say "I got mine...you got yours?"

That's what your argument boils down to. Ted Kennedy had a lot of advantages that the people he stood up for didn't have. Just because DK has better health isurance than those he's sticking up for doesn't make him wrong, correct? I ask, because that seems to be the line of attack here, and to frank, if someone pulled that against a Dem you like you'd be pissed. :shrug:

[mzmolly]

98. I don't understand your question FB.

I think Dennis is saying "I got mine, but you can't have it." I think he can better make his point if he says "I'll show you that it's better not to have for profit health care, by going without it, until every American has the very bill I support." If he's not willing to do this, then he doesn't seem credible to me.

Again, I would ask this of everyone who votes no because it's not a perfect bill. However Dennis has been one of the most vocal "no" voters which is why I pose my question about him specifically.

Hello FB. :hi:

[mzmolly]

72. He's voting against Americans having the same access to health care coverage,

because the plan doesn't have a "public option".

[flvegan]

74. That's a pathetic RW spin.

He's voting his conscience. More "Dems" should have one. Request your leaders to aspire to the office to which they were elected, where they did the right thing For the People.

[mzmolly]

79. No it's not. Have you heard one right winger say this?

I haven't. His conscience should direct him to represent people without health care.

[defendandprotect]

88. You should want ALL of Congress to give up their benefits ... not just Kucinich...

And if they ALL did, I'm sure Kucinich would do it with them --

Fortunately, Kucinich does have a conscience . . .

[mzmolly]

94. I want everyone who votes no to do the same.

:hi:

[cyclezealot]

44. why should he do that

He wants the American people to have what the Congress has.. Most Congress members pay about 100 dollars a month to have access to a Federal System of health care which is all but socialized medicine with a Federal networks of doctors and pharmacies.

[berni_mccoy]

59. No, he wants the American people to have Medicare. That's not what he has.

He has a much better plan than Medicare.

[ecstatic]

96. See the problem is, the people yelling the loudest

have no idea what they're talking about. DK's insurance is PRIVATE.

[cyclezealot]

113. I checked the Washington Post before I posted, thank you..

Yes. They have a multiple list of private options. But, the Washington Post described the major supplemental plan as being one that they must subscribe to for 100 dollars a month.. That , Congressional Plan allows them to use a list of government doctors , pharmacies, and clinics...Known as the Office of Attending Physicians... Or government run insurance...
.




..THE OFFICE OF THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN...(OAP) . From time to time, we're reminded of the fact that members of Congress -- many of whom are fighting to kill health care reform -- give themselves pretty good coverage. Several weeks ago, the LA Times reported on the taxpayer-subsidized insurance federal lawmakers currently enjoy.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_09/020186.php

[madrchsod]

46. i got an idea! let`s tie him to a

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHhKnc0XZrs

[bvar22]

49. I'd be laughing if it wasn't true.

The "Centrist" lynch mob has gathered, and are targeting one of the few REAL "Democrats" left in the party.
But thats OK.
Like FDR, Dennis welcomes their hatred.
I do too.

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.---FDR

Notice that FDR says that every American should have"The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health"

He did NOT say that every American has the obligation to BUY Health Insurance from a For Profit Corporation.

MY, my.
Look how far the "Democratic Party" has fallen.

For Profit Health Insurance is the problem!
Not the solution.
Making them STRONGER will NOT help Americans who Work for a Living.
There will be NO "Fixing it Later".

A "NO" vote is appropriate here, if you are a "Democrat".

[defendandprotect]

118. How dare Kucinich fight for a public option ---- !!! Wow, meanie!!

[readmoreoften]

50. That's patently idiotic.

[mzmolly]

70. Almost as idiotic as claiming that he's representing

those without health insurance by continuing to deny them access.

[ShamelessHussy]

52. Actually, I'd prefer he make his point in the peoples house

Considering that's what he's paid to do.

[Dinger]

54. My Congressman (Steve Kagen) Has Done Something LIke That

Yes, he can afford it, but he already spent thousands out of his own wallet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-steve-kagen/why-i-declined-my-congres_b_54338.html

"That's why I declined to accept the health care insurance offer from Congress. Plainly put, I will not accept health insurance coverage until everyone I represent in Wisconsin and across America is given the same opportunity. After all, I did not run for this office to get health care benefits."

[mzmolly]

69. Good for him! That's conviction.

Some grandstand on the backs of Americans, others put their money where their mouth is. :hi:

[Dinger]

226. He's An Awesome Congressman

Just got a letter from him, congratulating me on something. He came to my house for a house party in 2006. Super guy with a wonderful family!

[mzmolly]

245. He sounds like a great rep Dinger.

:hi:

[mmonk]

60. If Obama wanted real reform, he wouldn't have made a sideways

deal with the hospital industry and would have put us first instead and put in a public option like he initially told the American people.

[David Zephyr]

78. He's not making a point. He is standing up for what he believes is right.

If this insurance bill gets any better, it will be because of Dennis. Consider that.

[mzmolly]

80. As am I. I think if health insurance access is good enough for Dennis

he should allow the rest of America access DZ. If not, he should renounce his own coverage until we have his perfect health care vision in place.

Peace

[David Zephyr]

102. Let every American buy into Congress' or Dennis' healthcare plan

with the same out of pocket costs, the same conditions (pre-existing exempt) and I'm with you.

Or let every American have the opportunity to buy into Medicare. Simple.

Do you think Americans should be able to import their meds from Canada? This bill keeps it illegal. How do you feel about that?

[mzmolly]

103. The buy in is part of the bill

from what I understand. At least it was at one time. Re: drug importation, I don't like some of what's included in the bill(s) but it's not ok to deny people access to the same care congress enjoys, because of that.

[coti]

110. "Access" to insurance? You must mean being forced to buy it. From private companies.

"Access" implies a choice- which this bill does not give.

[mzmolly]

133. Do I have a choice? How about you? Guess who chooses for us?

My husbands employer. And, it's worked out fine so far. So tell me, why this "choice" has become the ONLY acceptable way to provide people with health care?

[coti]

183. Yes, you have the choice to decline it.

With this bill, you don't have that choice.

[mzmolly]

184. You will still have a choice.

You have a choice between paying a small penalty to have access to coverage when you do get sick, or having insurance immediately.

[defendandprotect]

85. Why don't we get all of Congress to suspend their health benefits until they pass

a health care plan NOW -- MEDICARE FOR ALL!!

And ensure that ALL of Congress comes under the new plan!!


:shrug:

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

99. I have no problem with that defendandprotect.

I've said as much. But anyone who says that the for profit system is worse than no access to health coverage, should prove it by living as if it were so.

[defendandprotect]

120. That would include all Repugs, Blue Dogs, Dino's and Lieberman . . .

didn't notice you paying any attention to them?

Again -- this health care deform doesn't even begin for 3 years --

though we begin paying for it immediately --

MEDICARE is up and running -- available now --

Let's focus on those who are making private deals with insurance companies and big pharma

when we call for penalties -- let Obama and Rham give up their health care for what they're

offering the public in this legislation!

And let's try to help those fighting for a public option/single payer which would really benefit

the public.

Why attack someone who wants something better for the public?

While ignorning those whose agenda is to help private corporations with hundreds of billions

of taxpayer dollars?

[mzmolly]

134. Well then you haven't paid much attention to my posts

in the past. As for when health care begins, three years is better than NEVER.

Also you can't consider my question an "attack" unless you feel that Dennis is FOS when he says the kind of health care congress enjoys isn't good enough for the rest of the public.

Obama and Rahm ARE GETTING WHAT THEY'RE OFFERING THE PUBLIC IN THIS BILL, as is Mr. Kucinich.

[moobu2]

90. He's just starting his presidential run using the public option angle

If he can kill HCR he thinks he can benefit politically is the way I see it. He's being a political opportunist.

[mzmolly]

100. My thoughts

as well.

[defendandprotect]

122. Kucinich is always fighting for the many -- not for the few. That makes him unpoplar with DLC

and Rahm and they attack him --

Attacking someone who wants to end the downward spiral in America makes little

sense --

Why not attack Obama and Rahm who have failed to provide universal health care?

Why not attack obama/Rahm and Baucus whose outlook is so well greased by corporate

contributions?

How about Obama and Rham giving up their health care benfits --

and better yet, let's make sure that Congress comes under any plan they approve!!

[mzmolly]

135. Kucinich is fighting for his next Presidential run.

Studies show that 50,000 Americans DIE WITHOUT ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE every year in this country. Dennis isn't representing anyone without health care in his "public option or bust" nonsense.

[Desertrose]

137. Kucinich realizes this bill will only offer access to *insurance*

NOT real actual healthcare to those who need it most.

....if he is so insignificant...why does it matter if he runs again?

[mzmolly]

142. Insurance works just fine for him and saves nearly 50,000 lives annually.

Guess what I and my family have access to? Insurance.

As for him running, it doesn't matter to me either way. He wont win, again, but I think it's important to point out that he's positioning himself politically.

Nice to see you Desertrose. :hi:

[ecstatic]

95. I hope Tweety asks him just that

He should give up his insurance, but he won't. And his devoted followers don't have a problem with that (hell, most of them probably have insurance too).

[mzmolly]

104. Is he appearing on Tweety's show

soon? :shrug:

[ecstatic]

106. I'm sure he'll show his face on all the shows next week

He's LOVING the attention (and donations).

[mzmolly]

107. LOL

gotcha. ;)

[Lorien]

109. If Obama, repugs and blue dogs really believed that private insurance offers access

to quality health care then they would buy their own instead of accepting the "socialist" government system they are privileged to be a part of.

[mzmolly]

136. Actually (we) buy their private insurance.

They're not on Medicaid.

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

158. I don't believe anyone in this thread supports the Afghani war.

Welcome.

[harkadog]

163. A lot of DUers support the Afghan war

Perhaps you haven't noticed.

[mzmolly]

166. I'm not sure we define "support" in the

same manner?

[harkadog]

167. I'm sure "we" do.

[mzmolly]

169. You think DU is a board filled with pro-war

advocates. I don't. Thus "we" do not define "support" in the same manner.

[defendandprotect]

221. No, but Obama/Rahma . . . and Pelosi/Reid do . . . refunding wars for 3 years now!!

[QC]

168. If John Kerry really cares about the poor, he should give up his hundreds of millions of dollars.

If Sally Struthers really cares about the starving, she should stop eating.

If Michael Moore really cares about people who have lost their homes, he should become homeless.

See how utterly stupid this line of "reasoning" is?

[mzmolly]

170. Absurd. Kerry isn't voting on legislation which would prevent people from

making a living until everyone is rich. Sally Struthers wants to feed starving people, not keep them from food until we all eat organic. Michael Moore isn't voting to keep people out of their homes until everyone gets a free house, and so on.

[saltpoint]

172. The analogy isn't any good. Both Kerry and Kucinich and some hundreds

of others are public servants. They chose public service.

The issue at hand is how to negotiate the best possible set of provisions for those governed.

Would that it was a perfect bill. It is not. The objection to Kucinich by the OP is well-placed because despite acknowledged flaws, there is good that comes from the legislation, requiring the support of Sens and Reps -- duly elected by the people -- to deliver on that good. Always legislation can be better than it is in passable condition.

Kucinich speaks to an ideal-condition set of provisions, which exist but which are not passable in the current Congress. He is being knocked around on this site and elsewhere because his response to not having it his way is brattish.

Watch how Bernie Sanders votes on this legislation. I don't believe a case could be made that he is insufficiently progressive.

[mzmolly]

179. Thank you.

Well said. :hi:

[saltpoint]

180. Long time no see, madam, but your comments in this thread

are seasoned and salty and persuasive.

More power to ya.

[mzmolly]

181. LOL.

You have a way with words my friend. ;) :hi:

[saltpoint]

176. Also if you check many Sens' & Reps' donations to charitable

organizations annually, you might have cause for reconsideration.

Wealth does not equal remote disinterest in the greater good.

There are multiple examples of commitment to the disenfranchised, the disabled, and the overlooked.

[karynnj]

259. First of all the millions are Teresa's and she runs a foundation that does help others

In addition to more than a decade of work on green building and hosting annual conferences on environmental toxins, women's health, and oncology in Pittsburgh and Boston respectively.

More directly, the Heinz foundation has funded programs that provide preschool and measured its impact and clinics in several areas that have few resources. Here is a link to one in Newark. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4071692 and a second program there - http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/newark-healthcare-covered-this-winterlatest-community-safety-net-features-2-prescriptions-78404927.html

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

187. "Democrats" at "Democratic Underground"?! imagine

that. ;) Though I am thinking for myself here. If Dennis's health care coverage is good enough for him, why isn't it good enough for the rest of America?

[ima_sinnic]

197. yes, why isn't it? ask rahm, and obama, that.

all of us would have it if the "democrats" weren't in the pockets of the insurance co. pigs.
obama lied about not signing a bill without a public option, after lying about "preferring" single payer. now it's just a matter of when and how much taxpayer money he will shovel into the pigs' troughs. the promises he made to the insurance co's?--THOSE are the ones he keeps.

[defendandprotect]

214. Yes, seems to be a little matter of corporate bribery . . . which we euphemistically call

"campaign finance funds" -- !!!

About time we begin to call it what it is --

[mzmolly]

241. He tried to get a public option and he always said he'd sign a bill that accomplished the same

things. I believe he does prefer a single payer system, but he can't even get dems to agree on a public option so tell me how that's possible?

[Hansel]

215. Yes, we must all view DK as a God or we are DLC.

Or maybe we can think farther than the end of our noses and aren't really into dichotomous thinking.

[defendandprotect]

219. Your choice . . . liberal/progressive or DLC . . . or are you suggesting you're neutral?

[mzmolly]

247. By jove

I think you've got it!

[upi402]

202. flamebait

false premise
:popcorn:

[Hansel]

216. Do tell. nt

[defendandprotect]

220. Exactly . . . !!!

:evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

249. Read what Rep Dingle did and tell me why it's a false premise upi402.

"That's why I declined to accept the health care insurance offer from Congress. Plainly put, I will not accept health insurance coverage until everyone I represent in Wisconsin and across America is given the same opportunity. After all, I did not run for this office to get health care benefits."

Any thread where Kucinich is questioned is ultimately flame bait because he's above question according to his flock of supporters.

[upi402]

260. Not much of a sacrifice for rich posers

please
Kucinich can get medical care if he had an issue. they all could - not real skin in the game

[mzmolly]

257. Correction it's rep Steve Kagen

who refused coverage.

[Bluebear]

203. Why single out Kucinich? What about all the other Congresspeople?

[defendandprotect]

217. ...because Kucinich keeps telling the public what's really going on . ..!!!

not good for the right wing DLC and Obama/Rahma corporatists -- !!!

Inconvenient . . . kinda . . !!

:evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

250. I'm willing to ask this of any no voter in congress, but Dennis has been very vocal

of late, so I chose him to discuss.

[Zomby Woof]

211. Just dropping by

And yes, this thread is going about as well as expected. :popcorn:

[mzmolly]

251. Hello ZW!

Yes indeed. Lucky for me, I walked for an hour today. I'm still quite calm in spite of the banter. ;)

[AnArmyVeteran]

224. Conservatives want a future filled with division, intimidation, war, hate, racism & anger...

[LoZoccolo]

225. POSTING IN EPIC THREAD.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[mzmolly]

248. LOL

I need to let it die a timely death. :hi:

[mzmolly]

252. Closing out with a quote from Rep John Dingle who has refused to accept the congressional hc plan

until Americans are covered.

"Nobody ever gets exactly what they want. I've been legislating for 55 years and I can't remember a perfect bill. This bill is a hell of a way from what I would've done. But I support it. It's necessary. It will help. And in this system, I'll have further chances to change it and make it better. In the meantime, people need this."

Thanks for the good discussion all. :hi:

[L0oniX]

255. ™

[Maru Kitteh]

261. Abso-freakin-lutely! I couldn't agree with you more.