CK_John
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:38 AM
Original message |
When will the Pope quit? I figure early June. |
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Do you thing he'll be forced out or do you care?
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CountAllVotes
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message |
1. I don't think he will "quit" |
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I think he'll fall ill or something along these lines and will no longer be able to serve as the pope. :tinfoilhat: ...
:dem:
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Mz Pip
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message |
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Being pope is kind of like being a king. You're in it for life regardless of what you do.
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ZeitgeistObserver
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:40 AM
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3. The pope isn't going to quit. |
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Nor will he be forced out.
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JackDragna
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message |
4. I'd be shocked if he quit. |
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I'm no expert on internal Vatican politics, but based on his career so far, the Pope seems a very determined person who has very entrenched opinions about how the Church should operate. Unless there's a worldwide push by Catholics for the Pope to specifically be held accountable for covering up sex crimes, I don't think anything will cause him to resign.
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wake.up.america
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
14. I'm no expert, but I would have to agree with JackDragna. |
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The Pope does not gauge popular opinion. He is strong-willed, feels as if he has done nothing wrong. His primary call in life is to protect the Church.
As Archbishop of München - Freising, 1978 - 1982, Ratzinger showed little willingness to comply or even confer with dissenters of which there were many.
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postulater
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message |
5. I'm praying to Jesus for that but I think the Supreme Court is going to pardon him. n/t |
spanone
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message |
6. popes don't quit, they're infallible (according to the church) |
wake.up.america
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
17. Here are a few popes who resigned: |
LiberalFighter
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
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That was also back in the days when the forces were different.
It was also a period when the world was much smaller.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #37 |
38. actually, the world was the same size, although |
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some scientists believe that we are constantly bombarded by mini ice cube bits and actually add water to our atmosphere. In fact, one guy developed a communications system bouncing off microwaves off of the blast's remnants, when the ice cubes hit the atmosphere.
Oh, wait. You were talking about people. Well, church policy enforced idiotic policies and caused millions upon millions of deaths. THAT made the world a bit smaller.
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AngryOldDem
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Sun Apr-04-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
68. They're infallible only on matters of faith and morals. |
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It's become a stubborn point of pride to hang on in the face of common sense and decency.
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NNN0LHI
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:46 AM
Response to Original message |
7. He won't quit but I bet he has several full time food testers |
Iggo
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:46 AM
Response to Original message |
Warpy
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message |
9. Popes don't quit. They have to die in office |
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While a few have been poisoned out of office, most continue on well into advanced senility, even after strokes and bedridden, as their underlings run the empire.
This pope is actually trying to do something about the mess he inherited from his saintly predecessors, in any case. He's doing the wrong things and he's certainly not doing enough, but at least he's doing something besides promoting bad bishops into the Vatican and away from prosecution.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
15. one pope did quit. The vatican then arrested, tortured, and killed him for |
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his crime. Pope Celestine the V.
Another pope resigned to solve the "great schism" between the two competing Romes. (the present one, and the eastern one, not to mention the "antichrist") Funny, during this time, the Church had actually relocated FROM Rome to the lovely south of France, Avignon, where the women were wild, the cognac flowed like a river, and the food kicked ass.
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Warpy
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
21. I'd remembered the Avignon papacy |
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but I also remember being taught that it was an illegitimate one from the get-go.
The reasons for trying to establish it under French protection were entirely political.
Both the periods you cited nearly finished the hierarchy off, and that's why popes now have to die in office.
Pity. The Vatican outlived its usefulness a millennium ago.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
26. another actually wrote out a resignation, about 200 yrs ago, |
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but I forgot the circumstances. Of course, the rumors about Nazi take over of the Vatican included rumors that pope Pius had drafted one, too, to allow the cardinals to pick a successor if he were arrested. But Pius had cut way too many deals with the Nazis to worry about that. Plus, more than a few bishops and cardinals actually cheered as Hitler picked up stray jews as though they were feral dogs.
The church STILL has not fully come clean about WWII.
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CK_John
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
16. He will have his Nixon moment when the pressure builds to get out. n/t |
RKP5637
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:50 AM
Response to Original message |
10. Maybe he should ask Sarah Palin for advice... n/t |
salguine
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:51 AM
Response to Original message |
11. Has there ever been a pope that wasn't in office until death? |
CK_John
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
12. I think so, also there was 2 popes at one time. How it worked out I don't remember. |
ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
24. that would be gregory |
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there were three people competing, actually, Benedict (what timing, eh?) gregory, and I forget the third guy, often called the AntiChrist.
Benedict was a seriously corrupt greedy bastard. Gregory resigned to give Benedict full authority to be pope, then resign himself.
Papal history reads like Shakespeare. Murder, intrigue, power moves, hell, there was even a female pope who masked her true sex. There were several popes with illegitimate kids, by my count, no less than 6 were murdered by shadowy powers within the Vatican, and at least a few were actively practicing homosexuals.
If you want a good primer, try The Bad Popes, from 1986 or so, by a serious writer named Chamberlain
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
19. see above. The answer is absolutely |
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Celestine, a very pious man, never wanted to be pope, but the cardinal see was so conflicted and corrupt, that they could not find a successor among their own. They finally selected Celestine V, who begged them not to. He proceeded to do little as pope, and almost a year later, perhaps less, he quit.
He left and began his pious wonderings again. The church regrouped, then within a month, sent out armed guards to arrest Celestine on trumped up charges. Apparently, no one resigns from that position without committing a crime. He was imprisoned, tortured, and eventually died, quite probably murdered.
Funny, the reason he rejected the papacy was because of the corruption throughout the church. Those same corrupt cardinals were the ones who had him arrested, etc.
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RKP5637
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
28. To me, it's a church of misery, cruelty, indoctrination, domination, intimidation and |
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Edited on Sat Apr-03-10 11:27 AM by RKP5637
'dinosauric' beliefs... in short, wealthy masters of brainwashing the masses IMO.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
29. that's why I study its history. One must know his enemy to defeat it. |
RKP5637
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #29 |
31. So very very true!!! n/t |
NNN0LHI
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
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Pontian (230-235)
Marcellinus (296 - 304)
Silverius (536 - 537)
John XVIII (1003 - 1009)
Benedict IX (c. 1012 – c.1085)
Celestine V (1294)
Gregory XII (1406 - 1417)
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ZeitgeistObserver
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
27. The early power struggles are long over. |
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There is no resignation of popes anymore. And the church doesn't consider this a serious matter anyway. A temporary embarrassment they'll easily get through.
This pope may die soon as he's had heart and stroke problems before, but he won't resign. And no one can make him do so.
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sharesunited
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:56 AM
Response to Original message |
13. No way. Loves his Prada too much. |
GreatCaesarsGhost
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message |
18. a popey-changey thing? |
RKP5637
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
proud2BlibKansan
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message |
get the red out
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message |
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But if the heat turned up enough the Church might have him quietly sent to heaven.
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comrade snarky
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Sat Apr-03-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
57. He wouldn't be the first pope |
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Hastened to his "reward" when he becomes a burden.
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get the red out
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Sun Apr-04-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #57 |
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And an institution that would cover up child rape probably wouldn't have a problem sending a tired old man to his just reward.
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Peregrine Took
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message |
25. I could see him retiring for health reasons as he is an old man and the last |
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few weeks must be very trying on him. I think it would be for the good of Mother Church for him to leave and a younger more modern man could take over and try to begin to repair some of the incredible damage that has occured.
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CK_John
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
30. A woman should be the next Pope and would be more open to reform. n/t |
ZeitgeistObserver
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #30 |
35. I've never seen 2 moons in the sky. |
CTyankee
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
45. Oh yes, look for them as the pigs fly past... |
salguine
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
32. One of the factors that went into Joey Rats' selection in the first place was that he was |
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older. John Paul II was on the throne for twenty-six years, and the powers that be at the Vatican decided that that was far too long for one man to be pope, so they made a point not to choose anyone too young or vigorous.
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TorchTheWitch
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Sat Apr-03-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
47. popes don't resign and health reasons are the last thing in consideration |
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There's been no resigning for popes for centuries. Like kings, they die in office even if years and years of their reign they're practically incopacitated. For a pope to resign for health reasons when they're still mobile and have their facilties reasonably intact would be an admission of guilt that they shouldn't be the Pope.
Even if a pope wanted to resign they couldn't as the Vatican and the church itself would no longer have control of them. This has been accepted and understood for centuries. The church would NEVER allow resignation. Popes HAVE to die in office to keep the church secrets safe and under the control of the church. The Italian Mafia took this lesson from the church... when you're in, you're in for life whether or not you want to be to ensure the protection and control of the secrets of the organization. Above ALL else the organization must be protected even if that means quitely bumping someone off. Again, the Italian Mafia modeled it's organizational protection on that of the Vatican because it works and has worked for hundreds of years. Interesting that the RCC has a better track record of organizational protection than the Italian Mafia.
I really had to laugh at your reference to "Mother Church"... one of the most strictly patriarchal organizations on earth that utterly excludes woman except at the very lowest of lowly tiers being referred to as "Mother" anything. Sorry, but the irony just really struck me.
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salguine
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message |
33. Seeing as the last pope was John Paul, if I were made pope, |
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I would choose, as my pope name, Pope George Ringo I.
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Contrary1
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:33 AM
Response to Original message |
36. Will the Pope do a Palin? |
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The jokes would write themselves.
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RKP5637
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
42. Time for a SNL skit!!! n/t |
havocmom
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message |
39. Quit? With his ego? Oh, he wouldn't miss out on the big Pope Funeral |
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Of course, he may well watch it from behind an ornamental screen, just before jetting off to a great retirement palace, but I don't see him quitting. Not even for his health. Too much invested in infallibility propaganda and too many egos.
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Toasterlad
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:30 PM
Response to Original message |
40. The Catholic Church Doesn't DO Responsibility. |
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The Pope will most certainly not quit. I definitely could see the other members of the oligarchy arranging a little health crisis for him, though.
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nickinSTL
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message |
41. can't see him quitting |
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he won't do anything that might be seen as admitting the pope might not be infallible, IMO.
I don't know that he could be forced out, and it seems that those in a position to try are just as committed to papal infallibility as he is.
Not really sure what will happen, but it won't be pretty for the catholic church, and all those catholics who still believe the pope is infallible and the ultimate expression of god's authority on earth will have their faith strongly shaken if not destroyed.
However, the mess here may well result in the cardinals actually voting VERY differently after Ratz is gone.
The Vatican has declared him untouchable, or something...I'm assuming that there wouldn't be a country anywhere in the world that would have the guts to arrest him and have him tried for conspiracy in the abuse cases during one of his visits, but that might be interesting...
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Stevenmarc
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:46 PM
Response to Original message |
43. You should avoid bookmaking as a career path, the only way he's leaving is feet first |
Fearless
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Sat Apr-03-10 12:46 PM
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44. I think you're greatly underestimating the blind following... |
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Of a vast majority of his followers.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
46. all too true, and what a sad statement about humanity. |
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Even with a 2000 year history of lies, wars, rape, murder, just because they call themselves god's princes, people automatically assign them that role.
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TorchTheWitch
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Sat Apr-03-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
50. and it's the church that set it up that way |
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Indoctrination since birth. I always found it incredible that the Catholic church actively discourages it's followers from reading the bible. They don't want you interpreting anything for yourself... anything you want to know about the faith you must ask the church so they can TELL you what's in the bible and what it means. Anything you need to know about any kind of important personal decisions - you must be directed by the church in those decisions. The church will TELL you the correct decision even if that decision is the worst one for you personally. It's ALL about what the CHURCH needs and wants and it's the job of the followers to provide it at church insistance regardless of what that means to to it's followers - the church will tell you it is YOUR cross to bear.
I grew up Catholic and have always been creeped out how the church is more like a cult than a religion. The CHURCH is actually MORE important than the religion. That is really messed up scary.
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rcrush
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Sat Apr-03-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Sat Apr-03-10 01:50 PM by rcrush
He'll end up dead from "old age" and everyone will forget because there will be a big pope funeral to watch.
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Arkana
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Sat Apr-03-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message |
49. Good lord, it's you again. |
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So, how are all your other insane predictions working out? The Pope is the Pope for life--he's not going to quit, no matter how hateful he is.
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xultar
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Sat Apr-03-10 01:53 PM
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51. I never liked Benny. He seemed to be more of an opportunist professional political hack. |
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Just sayin. JP seemed more ordained by god.
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keroro gunsou
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Sat Apr-03-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
52. didn't agree with a lot of what john paul 2 |
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said, but it always seemed to be his heart was in the right place.
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ChairmanAgnostic
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Sat Apr-03-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #52 |
53. er, before you make a saint out of him remember who promoted the Rat |
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and put him in charge of all sexual abuse cases around the world. Who approved the transfer of many child abusers to non-extradition countries? Who approved his recommendation (the Rat's) that they take an extremely hard line on all civilian authorities? And who permitted the issuing of the 2001 directive that the Church had ultimate control over its priests, and that they should not cooperate with outside authorities, under the risk of excommunication?
That was all the work of JP the twooth. If anything, he is even more responsible for the thousands of sex abuse cases, far more responsible than the Rat. After all, he knowingly promoted the Rat, kept him in place, and supported all the Rat's moves. Having a nice smile and being a good skier really does not answer the mess he created.
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keroro gunsou
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Sat Apr-03-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #53 |
61. i never said he was perfect. |
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when milwaukee's archbishop got promoted to be the archbishop of NYC, i told my uncle (who is a priest), "the pope may be infallible in matters of church doctrine, but he's got a long way to go in term of human resources."
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malaise
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Sat Apr-03-10 02:42 PM
Response to Original message |
ChairmanAgnostic
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Sun Apr-04-10 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #54 |
62. Given Vatican history, with or without help? |
xchrom
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Sat Apr-03-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message |
55. Depends on how difficult the northern hemisphere |
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Makes life difficult for the Vatican
should a child abuse scandal get out -- say in Africa -- then turn the egg timer.
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NoPasaran
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Sat Apr-03-10 03:19 PM
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56. Bookmarked for future ridicule |
comrade snarky
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Sat Apr-03-10 05:13 PM
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58. Ratzie retiring is about as likely as |
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Crocodylus Pontifex The Space Pope!
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WinkyDink
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Sat Apr-03-10 05:25 PM
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59. You're joking, right? |
applegrove
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Sat Apr-03-10 10:29 PM
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60. Something needs to happen. The catholic church can't just sit there and not change. |
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I'd personally rather see some change in the doctrine (birth control, prosecuting paedophiles) than see one cookie cutter pope replaced by another.
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Orsino
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Sun Apr-04-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #60 |
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The Church has an awful lot of practice at not changing.
I think that the faithful are generally well inured to rape scandals, and that this latest wave will also be ignored and finally forgotten.
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OmahaBlueDog
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Sun Apr-04-10 07:52 AM
Response to Original message |
63. This Pope will stay, but this will have a lot of impact on who gets chosen next |
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Remember that this Pope was chosen with little or no debate. I suspect that the next CoC conclave will have complete, thorough background checks on the top 20 candidates, and will devise some means of getting a check brought in if a none-of-the-above candidate emerges. This won't happen again.
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WeDidIt
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Sun Apr-04-10 08:54 AM
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65. He won't quit. He'd rather see his own church destroyed |
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which is precisely what's happening.
We're watching history in action as a major religion is in its death throes.
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saltpoint
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Sun Apr-04-10 09:07 AM
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66. He'll be 83 in two weeks. My guess is that death from old age is more |
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likely to remove him from office than the political abuse firestorm.
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AngryOldDem
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Sun Apr-04-10 09:15 AM
Response to Original message |
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When will people learn that the Church is a different breed of institution? How can you expect its leader to resign when the organization as a whole still cannot admit there is a problem, and keeps insisting that IT is the real victim here, and that IT is being slandered?
Benny will retire when he goes toes up. Not a minute sooner.
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Karenina
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Sun Apr-04-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #67 |
69. Marketing suggestion: Broken heart caused by the pressure |
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of unrelenting persecution by abuse victims' petty gossip, lib'ral media, feminazis and jooz turn his toes up! Benedict has become a liability to all but the most brainwashed virgins in da boyz club. Conspiracy theory: They're setting him up to take him out!!! :evilgrin:
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arthritisR_US
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Sun Apr-04-10 10:14 AM
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70. the pope can't quit before he's dead...that's how "god" does it. n/t |
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