Why do people throw out common sense when it comes to the immigration issue?

[Cleobulus]

Seriously, this is something that puzzles me, and Arizona's latest unconstitutional law is just the latest symptom of this farce called immigration reform.

When I see debates on this issue its like people threw their common sense out the window, jumped out the window after it, and broke a leg attempting to smash it into the pavement.

This is one of the few issues where unmitigated bullshit seems to be completely mainstream. Everything from the impractical and impossible to the cruel and unusual are argued as if they were reasonable solutions to the illegal immigration problem.

Hell, even the terms used are frankly stupid, "secure the borders", "invasion", hell even illegal immigrant itself are loaded terms. The most fucked up part is that the people getting the most screwed in this situation are the undocumented workers themselves. They are, to put it simply, serfs who are completely beholden to their employers, for the corporations, they are perfect employees because of their undocumented status.

These are people who are so desperate that they come here seeking and getting jobs in some of the most hazardous conditions imaginable, and in the most undesirable jobs as well. Of course, these jobs wouldn't be so hazardous or undesirable for Americans if they were unionized and paid better.

What's even more fucked up our the proposed "solutions" to this problem which seem to me to be just bullshit that's packaged to look like chocolate, and yet we continue to buy it.

Let's look at these so called solutions, shall we?

Arizona's law: Well shit, this just turns the border into even more of a revolving door than it already is. Seriously, let's assume undocumented workers are deported in droves under this bill, not the most definite of conclusions to say the least. Well, its not like the deported will necessarily stay that way, so they are dropped off in their home countries, and yet there is nothing to stop them, economically or otherwise to just run back to where the jobs are at. Wonderful solution there, huh? :eyes:

Border Wall/Fence: OK, this is one of those that we see kicked around all the time, and there's even partial walls/fences built along the border. So what the fuck are they supposed to accomplish again? Seriously, when your solution can be eliminated by a shovel or a wire cutter, you need to think of a better solution. Not to mention that quite a few people march through miles of desert to get to the United States, I doubt that a fence or wall will balk them for long.

Increased Border Patrols: OK, this one actually works, to a limited extent, but then again, the border is thousands of miles long, and its impossible to make it 100% secure. I'm not saying we should eliminate patrols, but they aren't a solution by themselves.

Arrest employers/increase fines: This is, just like the one above, one of the more reasonable parts of the solution, however, it isn't an end all/be all solution. Employers do need to be held to account, they also need to be actively dissuaded from hiring undocumented workers before they work in their companies.

I'm not even going to get into the crazy ass shit some people advocate, those "solutions" are crazy, most are cruel and highly illegal.

So now that we talked about the stupid shit, some reasonable shit, and some bullshit, let's talk about real, workable solutions. Some are purely domestic, others require international cooperation, but hell, this does involve at least 2 countries we are talking about, so let's start with the domestic.

The key here is that the problem with immigration of undocumented workers is economic in nature. So that is where we attack it. Why does no one ask why people are coming into the United States from Mexico in such numbers? It seems to be an obvious question, but seriously, no one asks why. Its not like these people are coming here for shits and giggles, no, they are finding employment in their country so hard to find they would move thousands of miles away to find any job that can support them or their families.

So what are the solutions? Hell, I don't know, but let me throw some ideas out there for DUers to mull over.

End Corn Subsidies: What, you may ask, does this have to do with illegal immigration? Well, its been estimated that over a million undocumented workers in the United States used to be farmers, maize farmers to be precise, and due to the flooding into Mexico of cheap federally subsidized maize from the U.S. Most of them lost their livelihoods, they couldn't compete with American corn, so their lost their jobs, many of them their lands and farms, and so they move here to try to get jobs. End the corn subsidies and domestic Mexican farmers could compete with American agricorps on the market, fairly. This might help turn around the decimation of many communities in Mexico that lead to other businesses moving out or failing that relied on domestic maize farms.

Reform NAFTA: Related to the above about subsidized corn, so called free trade has had devastating effects on domestic Mexican businesses, hell, their middle class is shrinking, wages are being depressed, and unemployment is high. Is it any wonder that a lot of Mexicans are seeking work in the U.S.? So this can go one of two ways, one is for Canada, the U.S. and Mexico to hammer out reforms to NAFTA to protect domestic businesses from unfair, uncompetitive practices, to work out a way to build Mexico's economy through encouragement of domestic business and employment and to come to agreements on working conditions, wage standards, and protect worker's right to unionize.

End the drug war once and for all: Another issue that's been cropping up, especially lately is the violence in Mexico that is perpetuated by drug cartels. And again, you have the Mexican poor, on both sides of the border, caught in the cross fire. The fucked up part is the Americans happen to be those cartels customers, and demand isn't going to decrease a whole lot any time soon. So the cartels keep their money and power, want to break the back of that power, then make it uneconomical to continue to perpetuate the violence. End the prohibition on illicit drugs and what happens, the prices decrease dramatically. Hell, American may end up preferring domestic sources over foreign ones, they may be cheaper after all. At least then, especially in the norther Mexican states, some stability, needed for sustainable economic development, may take place, and corruption of officials in these areas will also decrease.

One last thing, we need to pressure the Mexican government to act to clean up its own act, international treaties are negotiated on multiple sides. If we are to help Mexico build its economy, they would have to find a way to clean up the corruption that is present in their government. Strings should be attached to protect workers, the poor, and small businesses.

None of these ideas, alone, will solve the illegal immigration problem, however, taken together they should greatly reduce illegal immigration to manageable levels. Only then should we talk about amnesty or some path to citizenship for those who are already established here.

[truedelphi]

1. Because after the family, the "tribe" is the closest unit.

One thing that you don't hear mentioned in all this is that in areas where there is a lot of immigration, there can be reverse discrimination. Also as an area gets flooded with a lot of different people from different cultures, both the ceiling on prices goes up, and the floor on wages drops out from under the populace. Prices for everything go up - apartments cost more to rent. Food is more expensive.

And finding jobs can be more difficult. I had friends in the 1980's who were able to work as sous chefs - first job they got hired for in that field paid $ 12 an hour. They fit into the work place quickly and worked their way up.

But in the 1990's, restuarant work paid barely minimum wage in California. The alternative beginner's job, behind a store counter, can be hard to find as it is now Koreans, Pakistanis and Indians managing the local convenience stores and they hire only "in family."

So although it was difficult that a young person couldn't find work as their first job during the nineties, now that the economy sucks and even people with Master's degrees are desperately looking for jobs, any jobs, it is easy to see how this sentiment of blaming it on the immigrant can catch on.

I am not saying it is right. In fact, I plan on boycotting Arizona. But I can understand it.

[Cleobulus]

13. The argument you make is nothing new...

about immigrants in this country, you mention the 1980s, well in the 1880s it was the Irish, Italians and various Eastern European groups, along with Chinese that were the preferred targets of anti-immigration rhetoric. Its easy to blame the "other" especially when the truth can be so clouded. The fact is that the reason jobs were having wages depressed and became harder to find wasn't because of immigration, but because of the systematic dismantling of the inroads of Unions and employment security that was built in the 1940s and 50s and destroyed by conservative government over the past 30 years.

Its similar to the "Guilded Age" of over a century ago, the excesses of the rich lead to the progressive era, and important progress was made in that time. But the fact of the matter is that to blame it on a group of people, any group, that in themselves have little power or influence in this country, is irrational.

[truedelphi]

14. Your statement -

In Bold here

The fact is that the reason jobs were having wages depressed and became harder to find wasn't because of immigration,

That statement is simply not true. In any place where the numbers of people arriving through immigration is excessive, the labor pool is expanded, while the job openings are not. Contrast the fact that in the nineties, young people in Chicago could work at Burger King and make $ 9.50 to $ 10 an hour, with benefits - as the labor pool there was not so intensely flooded with immigrants.

Meanwhile at the exact same period of time in California, if you worked at Burger King you made
$ 5.50 an hour. (Restaurant minimum wages are lower than those for other fields.)

California has taken in such huge numbers of immigrants - not only from south of the border but from places like Eritrea. Look at that place on the map (it is adjacent Ethiopia) and you will see that it is not all about the south of the border immigration.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, restaurant jobs were hard to come by if you were born in this country and naively went in and applied the way that we were taught to apply.

Many restaurant owners would not even consider someone who came in through the front door. They wanted people who came in through the back door, where they could be paid less. Of course, since taxes and Social Security were not taken out of those wages, the worker went home with about the same amount. My son spent part of one summer helping a girl friend of his find entry level work, and not until she went and met with the restaurant manager and talked him into hiring her the same way that he hired the rest of his crew - off the books - could she find a job.

[sabrina 1]

2. NAFTA. I read a while ago that

this so-called 'free trade agreement', shut down millions of businesses in Mexico and, as in Haiti eg, destroyed the farming industry by allowing the U.S. to export corn to Mexico. In Haiti, it was rice basically putting out of business, Haiti's own rice growers.

I agree with your suggestions on solutions and with your position on the failed solutions. People will go where they can earn enough to feed their families. If this country wants to stop people from coming here, maybe we should stop exploiting their countries by undermining their economies and stealing their resources. Imo, every Iraqi and Afghan citizen has a right to come here legally or not legally. We have destroyed their countries, so we owe them. That's what happens to Empires, they end up having to deal with the poverty they've helped create and we should stop whining about the results of our own policies towards other countries.

[pampango]

3. Well said. l would add "amnesty" to your list of loaded terms that abound in this debate.

When the republicans say that we need to "secure the borders" first before we do anything else, it reminds me their take on safety from terrorism. Both rely on an undercurrent of fear of foreign "invasion" - Mexican immigrants or Muslim terrorists.

"We'll restore your constitutional rights once we are 'safe from terrorism'" is similar to "We'll discuss comprehensive immigration reform once the 'border is secure'". We will never have a 100% secure border and we'll never be 100% secure from terrorism, domestic or international. Since the border wall can always be built longer or higher, and we can always send more border guards or troops, those politicians who want to "secure the border" first before we do anything more comprehensive, are really saying that they don't want to do anything comprehensive. If everything else grinds to a halt until those elusive goals are achieved (an impossibility), the republicans win the "fear" game.

"Trying to use logic or "fact" in the cocoon of the immigration debate is like firing a bullet at Uranus. It will never hit the target, because the people on said target are living in their own insular world. Immigration is one of those guttural subjects. It festers on rumor and fear and shouting."

In the immigration debate everyone seems to be living in "their own insular world". It is rare to see anyone cite a study or any research into the causes or effects of immigration (legal or illegal). Everyone "just knows" that it is good or bad because that's what they have always believed or because of what has happened to them or their neighbor or their neighborhood. If I've been mugged a couple of times (or my neighbor has), I'm going to be reluctant to believe that crime can possibly be going down, even if studies were to show that it actually is. If someone doesn't like blacks or whites or hispanics or asians because he thinks they are too violent or lazy or unpatriotic or racist or whatever nonsense the may choose to believe, no amount of "studies" or "facts" is going to change his attitude. He just "knows" that what he believes is true. He doesn't feel the need to cite any studies to back up his own beliefs. He lives in an "insular world".

[ejpoeta]

4. fear. people do stupid things when they are afraid. there are a lot of white people

who see themselves becoming minorities. hell, a black man was elected president and he put a latino on the supreme court. they are scared to death because they feel their control slipping. what's next!! men staying home with the kids while the WIFE goes off to work!!!

[mdmc]

5. I opposed Bush when he tried immigration reform

I wanted him to have a black eye, not a feather in his cap..

As far as now, the corporations want cheap labor. the corporation own the politicians..

[pampango]

7. I supported JFK when he accomplished immigration reform in 1965. I supported Ted Kennedy

when he tried immigration reform in 2007. I support the immigration reform framework proposed by Obama last April and endorsed by organized labor and the Progressive Caucus.

I'm not aware of any progressive organizations that do not support comprehensive immigration reform. I am aware of plenty of right wing groups that oppose it.

[madokie]

9. And that my friend is the whole enchilada

"As far as now, the corporations want cheap labor. the corporation own the politicians.."

[mdmc]

12. yupyup

what is good for the corporations is good for all..

[Lance_Boyle]

6. You say 'illegal immigrant' is a loaded term. I say 'undocumented worker' is a lying euphemism.

The people here illegally are "illegal aliens." If they happen to be working, I suppose they are also "undocumented workers." But with reference to their immigration status, they are without question illegal aliens.

Cutesy word games and sloganeering like "nobody is illegal" do nothing to solve the problem. They only add a layer of dishonest rhetoric to cloud the issue.

[Cleobulus]

8. So that's where you stopped reading then? It seems to me like I'm not the one clouding the issue.

[KharmaTrain]

10. Yep...DeHumanizing Word Games...

"Alien" in itself congers the image of a Martian, someone who isn't human...not one of "us". This term has always been dishonest as it creates the impression of someone from a different country or culture is "strange" and "less American". Undocummented is what these people are...and also workers as a vast majority come here to do just that.

Are these people "illegal"...sure. But so are those who employ them...should we start labeling these people "Illegal Employers"? I wouldn't mind it...put a face on those who are exploiting the cheap labor, skipping on paying taxes or benefits and getting away from any real scrutiny in this matter. Start fining these people $1,000 a day per "illegal" and put their faces in the newspaper and teevee and watch how things rapidly change.

[KharmaTrain]

11. Economic Racism

This is the first "invasion" I've known where the "invaders" are there to serve the "vanquished". Yep, those Mexicans just love to come here to clean out cesspools and pick lettuce or flip burgers. They just can't wait to spend days fearing for their lives being robbed by coyotes, facing thirst and starvation in the Sonoran desert and then to live in basements and in limbo just to cut lawns and mop floors. :sarcasm:

You are spot on, the issue is totally been co-opted from going after the real "illegals" here...those who profit on both sides of the border from keeping Mexico poor and creating the conditions where these people are all but forced to head north in order to feed families...taking big chances in the process. Meanwhile those who benefit from the cheap labor jet around and get to frame the issue...using good old American race baiting to yank emotional chains.

Sadly this issue is so wrapped up in hatred and partisanship and doesn't focus on the class warfare being waged here.